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Tweaking

From sfgiants.com:

Whether the Giants open the season with 11 or 12 pitchers will determine the number of reserves they can keep. The staff's size is a crucial factor, because the Giants face difficult position-player decisions around the diamond. San Francisco has opted for a 12-man pitching contingent every year since 2004, but the fact that general manager Brian Sabean and manager Bruce Bochy are openly considering the smaller option demonstrates their awareness of the looming roster crunch.
I'm not seeing the roster crunch.  A 12-man pitching staff means 13 position players. According to the Giants' depth chart, you can get down to 13 pretty easily:
Bengie Molina
Dan Ortmeier
Ray Durham
Omar Vizquel
Kevin Frandsen
Dave Roberts
Aaron Rowand
Randy Winn
Eliezer Alfonzo
Rich Aurilia
Fred Lewis
Rajai Davis
Nate Schierholtz
That's assuming that Schierholtz is parked on the major league bench, which might be the worst thing Brian Sabean could possibly do to the rebuilding process. Schierholtz needs at-bats more than he needs chartered flights, and it isn't even close. Unless Bruce Bochy commits to starting Schierholtz in some capacity for 60% of the games, Schierholtz should go back to Fresno for 2008.

Assuming that there aren't any spring training injuries or trades and that Sabean is of a similar mind regarding Schierholtz's development, the Giants will actually need to add a bench player. That's a big assumption. The article is written as if the Joe Crede trade is a forgone conclusion. We hardly knew ye, Jonathan Sanchez. If the gods intervene, though, and don't bequeath this awful roster an unnecessary one-year rental at a high price, there will be slim pickings. Here are the non-roster invitees with an outside shot:

And here's a screenshot of my detailed spreadsheet of MLB-ready prospects in the upper levels of the Giants system:

There really aren't too many appealing choices between the two groups, but I'm all for giving Justin Leone a spot on the bench. He's shown a little power and patience in the minors, and he can play every position but catcher. Not that I'd want to see him at shortstop, but he can at least do a reasonable facsimile of whatever Aurilia can do at short these days.

I hereby announce that Justin Leone is the winner of the 2008 Brian Dallimore Award for Unrealistic Expectations Placed on a Career Triple-A Journeyman. The BDAUEPCTAJs aren't just given to anyone, so congrats to Justin.

What the article really means, though: The Giants are trading for Joe Crede. It's a matter of when, not if.

What the real question should be in the sfgiants.com article: How can we give away Dave Roberts to create playing time for the young outfielders?

Yeah, well, I'm going to do it until the horse turns into a fine powder. And then I'll beat the powder. These are not idle threats.

Sorry. I got off track. Comment starter: Last bench spot? Will the Giants bury three young outfielders on the bench, will they trade for Crede, or will a mystery man emerge to take a utility role?

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Re: Tweaking
Think Velez is getting an honest look? I'd be happy with Velez playing super Utility this year.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 1:43 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Oops. I forgot to mention that Velez should be in the Schierholtz category of "needs at-bats more than MLB-bench time."

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 13, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I must not be as high on Velez as you are.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Which is not to say I believe that either of us are over the moon about him.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I was thinking Velez too.  If Durham and Aurilia are truly done, their only alternative might be Velez at 2B and Frandsen at 3B.

Of course, Crede coming to SF would make this point mute, for all intensive purposes.

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 13, 2008 3:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
If the Crede deal goes down, we have to ship chi-town either Roberts, or Durham...
I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Feb 13, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Can we just ship them Roberts whether or not Crede comes back?

by NearestNorwich on Feb 13, 2008 5:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Why not both?! As I see it, the White Sox need them both, and we need them to need them both. Sprinkle in a little of our cash . . .a dab of Freddy Lewis and an entree of Noah (although they want Jonathan), and we get Crede, Boone Logan and Konerko! I'm happy to overpay. Pass me the Don Julio!
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Moot.  It's a Moot point, not a mute point.  Moot.

Moot.

by Viliphied on Feb 13, 2008 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Great minds think alike. As do tiny nitpicky minds like ours.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
E-me, I can't believe my joke went over your head.  For shame!
Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 13, 2008 4:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Joke? Ha! I laugh at your so-called joke!

No, really, I do laugh. Sorry if that sounded sarcastic.

2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 10:58 PM PST up reply actions  

MOOPS! MOORS! MOOPS! MOORS!
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 13, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions  

MOOT! MOOT!
"Mute" is a button on your remote control. "Moot" is what your point would be if they trade for Crede. Either that, or it's what cows from New Jersey say. I get confused sometimes.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
You guys are giving Goofus a hard time on moot, when what stuck out to me was "for all intensive purposes" instead of "intents and purposes." Weird.
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 13, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
You're all giving me a hard time when I was making a JOKE in reference to a thread last week.  (See Natto's "eggcorn" reference above.)

Sheesh

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 13, 2008 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
I think this is all an elaborate ploy to make me feel better for falling in this gaping whole the other week. Now it seems like I'm not the only one. Thanks guys, but I can see right through all of you!

And yes, whole should be hole. I know.

And Goofus, I got it immediately. And I chuckled.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
I'll bet a couple viewings of the classic Jesse Jackson sketch on SNL "The Point is Moot" would train anyone out of making that mistake.

Too bad it's not on YouTube.

by achiappanza on Feb 13, 2008 7:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
So you still think it was a mistake?
Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 13, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
Obviously it was a mistake because you keep trying to prove it wasn't.

Duh.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 13, 2008 9:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: MOOT! MOOT!
Really. And if it wasn't a mistake, why would so many people correct it? You correct mistakes, you don't correct jokes! Unless you're a professor at clown college, I guess. Then you'd have to correct the midterm jokes.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
It's not that I'm super high on him, but here's my list of Players Who Have a 12% Chance of Being More Than Utility Players:

Eugenio Velez
Nate Schierholtz

Most teams have a much longer list. The Giants don't, so they shouldn't just assume that the only two players on the list should be relegated to utility players.

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 13, 2008 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Ah, I didn't mean to imply that you were super-high on him. I really meant to imply that you were super-duper-mega-poopy-high on him.

I guess I was wrong, though. Weird, because normally I can read your tone pretty well.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I would include Villalona and probably Noonan on that list.  But yeah, this list sucks...

Hopefully the 2008 draft will double the size...

Why pay for crap when you can get it for free?

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 13, 2008 9:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
What I meant was Players...blah blah...12%...who could reasonably play in the majors right now. I now realize that wasn't clear, sorry. But, really, I'm on the Keith Law side of optimism with our low-minors hitters. I'm giddy over Wendell Fairley, and he hasn't even taken a professional swing yet.

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 13, 2008 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Considering the Giants track record, that makes it more likely for someone to be giddy over a hitting prospect, really.
Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 13, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Velez would be my choice. After the Viz, we seemed woefully short at short (pun intended) last season.
If EV could hit at least one game-winning grand slam a la Brian Dallimore, we wouldn't complain. Much.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 13, 2008 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I think you made a mistake, that spreadsheet is empty...

oh :(

by xanthan on Feb 13, 2008 1:44 PM PST reply actions  

What do you mean?
I don't get why it's empty don't we have umm...

What about....

Eh..

Yea alright I get it.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 13, 2008 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Don't we need a real backup shortstop? Omar is 41 and needs some rest, and he should be pinch-hit for in every important situation anyway.

We also need a left-handed first baseman, but maybe that's Schierholtz's spot.

by Evan on Feb 13, 2008 2:00 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Yeah I was going to say that too. Given Omar's offense last year (and his vesting option) do we really want Aurilia and Frandsen to be our best options to back up short -- on a team that supposedly is emphasizing pitching, speed, and defense?

Ivan Ochoa it is.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 13, 2008 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Or maybe a farewell tour for Royce Clayton ...

by Evan on Feb 13, 2008 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
+1
my cat clayton (pictured here at his research station) was named after "cadillac".

note the BEAT LA cup where he keeps his pencils and rulers.

"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Feb 13, 2008 6:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
catillac?
Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 13, 2008 7:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
According to Andrew Baggarly in the Mercury News, they're considering keeping three catchers so they can - get this! - "pinch run for Molina more often", but that's just crazy talk.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 2:03 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
The Giants are already planning on pinch-running for their cleanup hitter more often?

{scratches head}

Now that Pedro Feliz is gone, what's the over/under when, as long as this philosophy holds up, we see Kevin Frandsen dons the catcher's gear?

by LittleCableCars on Feb 13, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
they're considering keeping three catchers so they can - get this! - "pinch run for Molina more often"

I really hope that Baggarly was channeling Grant's sarcasm here.

by blank on Feb 13, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I remember Bochy often carrying 3 catchers with the Padres.
Brock Bond 010

by petalumatim on Feb 13, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
his back must have been killing him
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 13, 2008 8:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course..
I remember often when he was with the Padres Mike Piazza was one of those "catchers."
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 13, 2008 11:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
it could all be smoke, or just throwing the media and us something to chew on.  There's only one day off in April after the opener.  They always go with 12 pitchers, and likely will this yr too.

Leone or Velez on hand to back up Omar, that's great with me.  Maybe if somebody gets an injury, or  they find a way to ship a dead horse to the Bosox.

adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson

by foothillsfan on Feb 13, 2008 2:24 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking

I find it hard to fathom that Grant could post something about the Giants position player situation that would actually lower my expectations.

Hey, every cloud has a black heart of hatred and misery.

by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 2:27 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
How bad is it?

The 4 non-roster invites are all about as bad at the plate as Pedro Feliz.  Probably worse.

by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: amazing NRI guys
Yep, they are bad.  Harper, for example, was in AA for the 4th time, and struck out 1/4 of the time.  And only plays 1B.  Did have 850 OPS.

Ochoa is the real prospect (if you close your eyes halfway). Just 25, had his best year ever for OPS--.767--and that in his first year at AAA.  So, obviously, he will improve even more if he jumps to the majors.  And besides old Ivan, who is the shortstop for 09?

adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson

by foothillsfan on Feb 13, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: amazing NRI guys
Omar Vizquel, age 42, automatically-vesting option, baby!! First player-manager since Pete Rose?????
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 13, 2008 4:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: amazing NRI guys
Harper is a strange one, he had an OPS greater than 850 for three straight years but wasn't promoted from AA once. He's only 26 though & hit well in the Eastern League, so he's an interesting pickup.

by GiantFan on Feb 14, 2008 7:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I say eff it, give the last bench spot to Lou Seal.  If anything when we actually win one, we might get an entertaining fist pump on top of the dugout.  Also if he was playing catcher Prince Fielder might think twice about trying to run him over
If you drop a phonograph needle on Kevin Frandsen's nipple, it plays the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds".

by WilliamVanLandingham on Feb 13, 2008 3:25 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
He's faster and in better shape than Molina, added bonus.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 13, 2008 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I think Schierholtz will be on the bench to start the season. When Winn starts 27 games and Roberts 20 in April, they'll send Nate down. He'll be 2 for 15 with a double, and be worst on the team in savviness.
Give the last spot to Leone, and put him in there when Aurilia and Durham are both batting .214 in May. I hope he has a HUGE spring and Sabean thinks better of dealing for Crede.
Hopefully Ochoa's 767 OPS at AAA last year wasn't an illusion. It was his first stop over 669, and only came in 179 AB's... but we have to hope for something next year, right? Someone has to keep Vizquel's '09 option from vesting.
Brett Harper's an interesting prospect. Interesting for a Giants prospect, but interesting nevertheless.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 13, 2008 4:11 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I'm all for Velez as 25th man. I'm also okay with the Giants carrying three catchers-- pinch running!  pinch hitting! what unusual concepts.

Lewis-Davis-Scheirholtz starting outfield... in a parallel universe where the Giants are actually rebuilding.

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Feb 13, 2008 5:22 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Grant, I believe you made a calculation error in cell E5.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 13, 2008 7:58 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I can't believe you fell for the old 'deliberate error in cell E5' joke. That's the oldest gag in the book. Err, oldest gag in the worksheet, I mean.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
Phew, I'm glad Natto took that hit before I made the mistake. Boy would my face have been red.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 14, 2008 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Sorry, a little OT
Anybody hear Skull Mountain (Bochy) on KNBR tonight? Someone relayed this info to me.

Boch and Rags thought the rotation might look like this:

Cain, Zito, Lincecum, Lowry, Corriera

Don't know if this is strictly for ST and I'm sure it will be pending on a trade. But I'm digging on the idea of Matt to deservedly open up the year.

Idolizing the Nuschler Face since April 8, 1986 / GIANTSPACE returns!

by SoFa King Mike on Feb 13, 2008 9:06 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I have to admit I missed the big Brett Harper signing, and in fact never heard of him till this. So I looked him up and now I have to ask, can someone explain why he wouldn't or shouldn't have a chance of knocking Ortmeier off first? He's the same age (two months younger, actually) and his career minor numbers are .296/.360/.483 vs. .271/.348/.433 for Ortmeier.
Twenty-seven years of waiting has come to an end.

by trapper9 on Feb 13, 2008 11:04 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
#1 reason: because fans chanting "Ort! Ort! Ort!" is more amusing than fans chanting "Harp! Harp! Harp!" which, further, might confuse the beer vendors, who only carry around Bud Light or some other swill and what was the question again?
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 13, 2008 11:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
OK, I can accept that.
Twenty-seven years of waiting has come to an end.

by trapper9 on Feb 14, 2008 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
And clapping your hands like a sea lion while you chant "harp! harp! harp!" would be just plain stupid.
Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 14, 2008 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
I was thinking of Aurilia as the backup shortstop (he can't really play it anymore, but his numbers in limited time weren't absolutely horrible), but anyway that was before I found out that apparently we're going into ST with Frandsen as the 2B and Aurilia as the starting 3B. (I have to say, I am at least a little bit pleasantly surprised about that.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 14, 2008 4:25 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
dont the elites in halo say "ort ort ort"? maybe they are precogs
my non-baseball friends think im listening to art bell all the time when they hear "giant spaceball is on the air"

by son of riles on Feb 14, 2008 10:39 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Tweaking
the screen shot of the excel worksheet is priceless. haha.

by em3 on Feb 15, 2008 8:07 AM PST reply actions  

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