The Attempt To Acquire Justin Smoak- Sabean Read Please
by HarbirD on Dec 31, 2008 5:54 PM PST
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PrintFirst of all I'd like to thank Brian Sabean for a very good offseason. Three awesome signing and one solid signing (Renteria) amke for a very good signing. All these contracts will not effect 2010 when we plan to finally start making our runs at the championship. These moves will make us solid and semi-competitive for the present to keep the fans entertained and keep the young players' moral up as well as maybe have them learn a few things and get better. I have the last piece to the puzzle in my post below. Happy Hollidays!
Okay to start off, we need a middle of the order at bat. This bat can come at first base because we have a vacancy there (I do believe Sandoval will become at least average at third- plus arm, soft hands). Thinking about this situation for a few weeks and it finally hit me. (I'm surprised I didn't think of it before). Remember who many of us wanted in the 2008 mlb draft? Oh yeah, Justin Smoak.
The Rangers already have Chris Davis at first base. What they really need is some pitching. What seems to be the only way to get Smoak? Sorry guys, but we need to finally part with Matt Cain. However this is not a one for one swap. I propose a deal something like this:
Rangers get Matt Cain.
Giants get Justin Smoak, Julio Bourbon, Max Ramirez, and Kason Gabbard (or anther 4/5 starter type)
I think this trade would finally address many of our needs and we would be set. You say: the Giants don't have that much pitching depth except at the minor level and that always a huge risk to depend on them. Very true, but the Giants have tons of depth in the low minors and some of them are bound to contribute in the MLB: Bumgarner, Alderson, Henry Sosa, kevin Pucetas, Waldis Joaquin, Clayton Tanner, jesse English, Scott Barnes, Joseph Martinez, Aaron King, etc.
That's a ton of depth, period. However I will take it a step farther, we draft a pitcher with the sixth pick in the 2009 MLB draft. It is loaded with pitchers. We have our choice from Aaron Crow, Tyler Matzek, Matt Purke, Kyle Gibson, Alex White, and my personal favorite, Zach Wheeler ( Lincecum like- mid 90s heat, good curve, avg. change- all the way to awesome mechanics- amazing hip rotation). This will make up for Matt Cain's loss and we potentially get a better pitcher than him. Sure this will weaken our team for the present, but we are then set for the future. Let me show you what I mean:
The Future (2011 and beyond)
Rotation:
Lincecum - Bumgarner - Wheeler (or other draftee) - Alderson - Sanchez (other)
Bullpen:
Wilson - Romo- Hinshaw - Matos - Casilla - (Other power arms from the system who don't get to be starters)
Batting Order:
1. Julio Bourbon (CF)
2. Buster Posey (C)
3. Pablo Sandoval (3B)
4. Jason Bay (LF)
5. Justin Smoak (1B)
6. Nate Shierholtz (RF)
7. Kevin Frandsen/ Nick Noonan (2B)
8. Emmanuel Burriss (SS)
9. Pitcher
Yes I do think this lineup can win a championship. Yes I think we should replace Lewis with Bay (lewis isn't good enough to bat at a corner outfield spot). Zito will be a spot starter to keep everyone fresh and a part time bullpen arm (his curve will be useful there).
I think this one trade and one signing would set us for contention in 2010. With this amazing rotation and solid batting order, do you think we're set? Do you like the Smoak move? Please do discuss.
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Sabean read your post...
…and asked me to tell you that you can’t trade players within a year of drafting them.
Tyler Walker, my son, it's time you left the nest. No seriously. Go.
Yes, that's the only imaginable thing stopping this from happening.
Tyler Walker, my son, it's time you left the nest. No seriously. Go.
Not to mention why didn’t we draft him instead of POsey to begin with!!
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading
by Mordy From Monsey on Jan 1, 2009 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
What did I do with OldJ's sig....?
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Dec 31, 2008 6:20 PM PST reply actions
here ya go.
Been a while since someone fake traded Cain.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Pheww!
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Dec 31, 2008 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
It’s not been a long enough while.
If I never see another “Trade Cain / Sanchez for…” it’ll be too soon.
But…we need to!
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
how can we reacquire justin smoak if we never had him in the first place?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I think he means
That the draft should have been our first attempt to acquire Smoak. Though that would make this a reattempt to acqire Smoak.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I'd love for us to get Smoak
But I definitely wouldn’t part with Cain for him. I’d prefer to try and base something off of Sanchez, although it would definitely take more on our end. Maybe if we develop some high-end talent out of our 08’ draftees we could toss one of them in, too. But I think it’d be easier to go after Chris Davis.
Rangers get Matt Cain.
Giants get Justin Smoak, Julio Bourbon, Max Ramirez, and Kason Gabbard (or anther 4/5 starter type)
If you really think Daniels is going to give up three top ten prospects AND a major league arm for Matt Cain, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
Sell crazy someplace else. We’re all stocked up here.
Regarding the possible Ramirez fiasco -
“I look at a GM…and I take away reason and accountability.”
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
I concur with everybody, but quick question
Matt Cain gets paid $13 million for the next three years. Jake Peavy gets paid, what, $61 million for the next four. So which guy is more valuable in trade?
Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz
Matt Cain is no Jake Peavy
Someday, maybe. Hell, he might even be better at some point. But right now, Peavy is a young Cy Young winner who has proven just about everything you can prove.
Cain’s affordability brings him closer to Peavy in value, but given the choice, I would certainly rather have Peavy.
The 2008-2009 offseason is driving me sane!
What kind of a pitcher is Cain with run support?
or will we ever know…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Different strokes for different folks
Depends on the club. One of the reasons Dan Haren landed such a haul was because he was so cheap, which is of more importance to a team like the D’backs. If you went to say the Cubs or the Angels, they’d say Peavy and not particularly close. If you went to the Rays or Twins, they’d say Cain.
In an absolute vacuum, I’d say Peavy, but Cain isn’t super far off.
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
-10 for trading Cain or Sanchez
-10 for forgetting that the Rangers can’t trade Smoak yet
+5 for at least replacing Cain with a functional pitcher in the rotation
+5 for at least trading for minor league guys and recognizing that the Giants have a better future than a now
-3 for perhaps overvaluing Cain a bit
-3 for thinking the Rangers would pursue a pitcher with such extreme flyball tendencies for that silly ballpark of theirs
-3 What? One season and Angel Villalona is chopped liver?
Overall I give this fake trade a C+.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
by oldjacket on Dec 31, 2008 7:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
= (-19)
Man I wish my old professors graded that way
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Dec 31, 2008 7:53 PM PST up reply actions
actually, the best suggestion here
is the zito solution.
seeing as the giants are going to have to accept the salary, no matter what he does, why not use him as best suits the club? let him make a few spot starts, but other than that, do some commentary. make some burgers. hang out with politicians. he’s a well spoken guy.
i mean, hell. he’s not going to get traded, the bullpen isn’t an option, why not wring value whilst you can?
I have no solutions, just rejoindres
by alea iacta est on Jan 1, 2009 1:41 AM PST reply actions
my favorite part
You say: the Giants don’t have that much pitching depth then except at the minor level and that always a huge risk to depend on them. Very true, but the Giants have tons of depth
you: we have no pitching depth.
harbirD: very true, but the Giants have tons of depth.
you: jigga, wha?
that taken care of, i wouldn’t mind giving this idea another looksie next new year, after:
1. smoak gets a full year of professional ball in
2. we can actually trade for him
3. we have a better understanding of sanchez’s worth
Dodgers fans eat their young.
Harbir named alot of minor league pitchers like they’re all equal, but there’s a huge drop after Alderson and Bumgarner. None of them after the first two are ever going to be as good as Matt Cain already is. I kind of have Alderson and Bumgarner replacing Zito and Randy Johnson in the rotation in the future, not Matt Cain. Give me FA signings anyday. I hate trades that while they may solve a problem in one spot, create another problem elsewhere. After trading Cain for Smoak, next year you’ll be looking to trade a hitter to fix the huge hole you now have in the rotation. The bullpen looks much better next year, and even people that hate our team say we might have the best rotation in the league. Why mess with that?? Leave the pitching staff alone and let’s hope a hitter somehow falls into our lap. Maybe the young hitters get better, or maybe one of the vets like Rowand or Molina have a surprisingly big year. I’d prefer hoping to get lucky to messing with our pitching staff.
Brian Sabean's dad- will make a few phone calls to help his son find a new job after next season
redhornet, I agree
Those last 3 points are good to keep in mind, but I think the overall suggestion of acquiring Justin Smoak (a slugging 1B who is semi-blocked by Davis) in return for one of our good pitchers (like Cain, who could/might/may be replaced by Sanchez or Alderson or Bumgarner or Barnes or whomever) is exactly what we should consider – this July or next off-season.
And please note that I say this as a HUGE Matt Cain fan. My son attended the same high school Matt did. He seems like a class guy. I’d hate to lose him. BUT…. AnVil is a long way away and his defensive skills at 1B are merely adequate. imho, best case scenario for AnVil arriving (as either a 1B or 3B) is 2012 – and I think Smoak can get to the ML in late 2010 or the beginning of 2011. And I have more confidence in (1) him making the bigs and (2) him being an offensive force with (3) good defense than Angel.
And clearly, the Ranger aren’t trading a bunch of young promising guys for just Cain. But Cain and Smoak would be a good starting point, with players added as circumstances develop.
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
Totally agree. However, I’m really hoping Sanchez puts up Pre All-Star numbers and the Rangers bite on a Sanchez for Smoak trade. Sanchez does seem to have a higher upside than Cain, but durability is the deal breaker for me. I realize that Sanchez has been mismanaged but I still have my reservations of whether he’ll be able to log the tons of innings Cain has given.
On the subject of FA batters, I really don’t think any big impact bat will consider SF w/o the Giants vastly overpaying them.
"Sabean Please Read"
That phrase always makes me laugh. As if Brian Sabean even knows where the power button is on a computer. He’d have to call tech support, which would lead to Sabean having a conversation with some dude in India and would end with Sabean offering that guy a 7-year contract to play some CF.
LinceCain and pray for rain .... or for someone to take Zito off our hands.
"Tech Support, how may I help you?"
"Sure, I could play CF for you. How much money again was that?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
no
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
-whew
Damn sarcasm meter. I knew StickRat wasn’t one of the crazies.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Haha. I’ll admit, I liked both Justin Smoak and Gordon Beckham over Posey on draft day. Posey’s proved me wrong since then, though. I think Smoak and Beckham will each be better sluggers. Posey’s skills both sides of the ball could make as valuable as both Smoak and Beckham combined though. Plus, I’m still excited to see if Posey gets a look as a relief pitcher.
How has Posey proved you wrong? Beckham, Smoak and Wallace have all done very well in AFL while Posey did fine in lesser HWB
The statements Sabean has made about Posey arriving faster than many think sounds like Posey is being TurboTracked.
Well, part of Brian Sabean’s job is to talk up his players in the media. We’ll see how it plays out. There has been a lot of criticizm about Posey’s game-calling skills. And they aren’t just going to rush him into a situation where he is responsible for three or four of the most premier young power arms in the game.
fast-tracked
I do believe the reports they are looking to get Posey moving through the system quickly, although it may not go as quickly as they’ve implied. However, I don’t see how beckham, smoak, and wallace’s success in a tougher league makes them less valuable than posey. I like posey a lot, but “being developed” does not mean he’s the better prospect necessarily.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Posey is a catcher. I’ve debated the subject of how important it is to have a good catcher behind the plate. With the Giants on the verge of possibly having one of the best pitching rotations in modern history, I’d rather have a catcher that knows what he’s doing than a corner infielder with a notable slugging percentage.
that may be true
But you said “Posey’s proved me wrong since then.” That sounds like you’re saying his performance since draft day has changed your mind, since you knew he was a catcher at the time, I assume.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Fuck Smoak
Get Yonder Alonzo or Joey Votto from the Reds.
Is that the new Anti-Smoking slogan?
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Jan 1, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
As written by HarbirD
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Jan 1, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yonder’s too good to be true
wilriv thinks so too
Fastballs to heaven he’ll crush
wil wants to sign him so much
Never has a poster been more correct in the history of the internet. Ever! - ResDog on yours truly
Way over Yonder in the Alonso key
there ain’t nobody can hit like me.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
This is the kind of trade the Rangers might be interested in...
however, they would be on the receiving end of the prospects. While I would love to see the Giants pull off this kind of haul on prospects from Texas, I think we will see the Rangers concentrate more on player development over the next season or two and then start trading away second tier prospects after the very best prospects have graduated to the majors. At this point it would be fruitless for them to start gutting their minor league system when they (and everyone else in the AL West) are so far from contending with the Angels.
I do agree with one thing from your post, and that is the 2009 draft is more heavily weighted with pitchers than hitters. The Collegebaseballblog.com recently released its list of top 50 college players eligible for the draft. Six of the top 10 are pitchers and the 4 hitters listed all have some question marks attached (#2, SS Green, high strikeout rate; #5 OF Davis, very high strikeout rate; #8 OF Ackley, questionable future power; #10 OF Pollock, speed but perhaps little other offensive skills). As for the top high school hitters available, none are locks either. OF Tate has tools galore, but with that high ceiling you have a low floor, and we all know how the Giants have fumbled around with “toolboxes” in the past. SS/P Givens may end up being drafted as a pitcher. No other high school hitters jump to mind right now, and somehow I think that if the Giants see themselves as 2-3 years away from seriously contending they are not going to be anxious to draft a high schooler. So I do agree with you that we may very well see the Giants select a college pitcher. Or Crow or Scheppers out of the independent leagues. The folks over at Ballhype.com had the Giants taking Scheppers in their mock draft (and some of their mocks in the past have been pretty accurate), which may not be a bad move if he is back to his healthy 97 mph self. Either he or Crow could end up as their future closer.
To clarify...
I meant they could end up as the future closer, as a fallback option. They would of course be drafted with the hopes of being a starter, but if the Giants have 5 better options as starters (I can think of a possible 4 right now) having a Crow or Scheppers as a lights out closer would not be the worst thing that could happen. We have all seen that many of the best closers are converted starters (who have actually learned to pitch rather than just throw) while the track record for college closers in the majors is not great (Ryan Wagner and the ignominous Aardsma come immediately to mind).
by baseballjunkie on Jan 3, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Rangers wouldn't give up that much anyway
That’s a ridiculous ransom. Smoak and Max Ramirez for Cain is solid enough. If Posey hadn’t slipped to us, we were going to take Smoak anyway I think.
Maybe if we had the cash to sign Texieira, we wouldn’t be talking about this.
Check out my blog at www.dantheman85x.blogspot.com
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