Can the San Francisco Giants Contend in 2009? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. No. Oh My, No. Wait, Maybe.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2008 1:07 PM PST
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PrintAround the baseball universe, people are applauding the low-risk, high-reward Randy Johnson signing. Some folks are even wondering, gasp, if, you know, the Giants might even contend next season. Craziness! Ludicrousness!
And yet….
It’s still silly to think the Giants are frontrunners, and it’s probably silly to assume that they will contend. But it isn’t silly to wonder if there’s the potential of a possibility of a chance that the stars will align in a 1997 kind of way. Consider the moves made around the division:
Arizona: Replaced Randy Johnson with Yusmeiro Petit, replaced Orlando Hudson with Felipe Lopez, replaced Adam Dunn with a healthy Eric Byrnes
Colorado: Replaced Matt Holliday with Garrett Atkins, replaced Willy Tavares with Ryan Spilborghs, replaced Brian Fuentes with Huston Street
Los Angeles: Replaced Manny Ramirez with Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones (maybe), replaced Derek Lowe with the remains of Jason Schmidt’s shoulder (maybe), replaced Chad Billingsley’s healthy leg with Chad Billingsley’s broken leg, replaced various players at third with a full year of Casey Blake
San Diego: Will probably trade Jake Peavy and replace him with Kevin Correia. Yeah. They’ll also replace Greg Maddux with someone like Will LeBlanc, Khalil Greene with Luis Rodriguez, and Cyborg Jody Gerut with Human Jody Gerut
I don’t want to sell all of those moves short – getting Tavares out of Colorado is a positive for the Rockies, for example – but there aren’t too many positive additions up there. Now to the Giants:
San Francisco: Replaced a swirling vortex of liquid awful with Edgar Renteria, replaced Kevin Correia with Randy Johnson, replaced Tyler Walker with Jeremy Affeldt, replaced Keiichi Yabu with Bobby Howry, replaced Jose Castillo with a full season of Pablo Sandoval, replaced Rich Aurilia with Travis Ishikawa/Other.
I dunno. A lot would have to break right – Ishikawa being the 2008 version, and not the 2005-2007 version, for starters – but those moves probably made the team better. And if the Dodgers don’t re-sign Manny Ramirez, we can only hope they’ll do something silly with Matt Kemp. The Dodger rotation looks pretty thin without any additions, especially considering that, as of right now, a 21-year-old pitcher is their #2 starter. Kershaw’s a great prospect, but that’s a pretty lofty demand. I can’t envision a scenario where Madison Bumgarner is expected to pitch 200+ innings in 2010 that won’t make me nervous, and that’s a pretty realistic comparison if Bumgarner has a strong year in AA.
Every team can hope for good luck/expected improvement. One of these years, Justin Upton is going to go insane on the National League, and the same can be said for Matt Kemp and James Loney. The Rockies have a lot of talent at a lot of positions, and it wouldn’t be unexpected for them to contend. The Padres have a lot of players whose mothers love them very, very much. So the Giants probably won’t win the N.L. West. But that "probably" wasn’t there last year. Heck, it cost a lot of money for the Giants to give us the "probably" in the "probably not." But we’d be crazy not to look forward to probably hating next season as opposed to definitely hating next season.
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It gets rill hot here.
Come an see.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 29, 2008 1:11 PM PST reply actions
errbody in the club gettin tipsy
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
(whispers)
errbody in the club gettin tipsy
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Voted I guess but not likely. I dunno, I need to finish my WAR projections before I say anything.
/deer head
Bay City Ball
See , the joy of idiocy is that facts or statistical calculation need not impede.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 29, 2008 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
my penis has little input on FA moves
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
And what is it telling you?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
That’s what she said!
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 30, 2008 9:03 AM PST up reply actions
No she didn’t.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
Needs more tire kicking…
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 1:53 PM PST up reply actions
Is it the end of the day yet?
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
It was the beginning of the day one time, and my brian almost completely lost it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
/DFA’s self
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
/accidentally
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 29, 2008 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Probably not. Seems like pretty much everything would have to go right for the Giants and the Dodgers, Rockies and Diamondbacks would have to go very wrong for the Giants to win the west. Still, that’s a lot more hope than last season.
I also think that people tend to be overly optimistic at this time of the year. Though, the Giants have made some very nice moves this offseason, I think you could probably dig up a thread from last offseason where the majority of us said “I think we’ve got a chance.” Then, the next thing you know, it’s May and Velez is hitting .225 and has been picked off 20 times and you hate life.
True.
I’m not really excited to see if the Giants can content next season. I’m excited to see them improve over last season and continue to work on improving during the season.
maybe/maybe not
Well, as someone who last winter thought the Giants’ 2008 prospects were bleaker than those of a snowball on Vic’s patio in August, I must say the Giants now appear to be contenders a major league baseball team. And that was not a statement I was prepared to make last year. Yes, sure, RJ could be injured for most of the year, and Winn could do his Rowand imitation, and Ishikawa might go back to being the Ishi we all knew and wondered about. But, just as easily, Renteria might hit a bit, and Pablo might do his Manny Sanguillen imitation, and Bengie might continue to be clutch™, and the Big Unit might make Zito’s losing turn in the rotation slightly less galling.
I now think either thing is possible. I expect the Rockies to be much better, even without Holliday. I think the Dodgers will continue to be good despite their GM’s best efforts otherwise. I think the Dbacks are as schizo as the Giants, capable of almost anything. And I think the Padres will need the latest GPS systems to find their way forward in the near future. I could see the Giants as high as 3rd place.
At best!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
I voted they contend. The Dogers won 84 last year, they’re good for 82 in ‘09. The Rox and D’backs are 500 teams. The G men won 72 last year with no SS, Castillo at 3b, and Correia et al at #5.
I think, for ‘09, Lencecum wins 2 less, Cain wins 2 more, Sanchez wins 4 more than in ’08, Zito wins one more, and Unit/Giant wins 5 more than Correia/Misch. And the bull pen wins 3 more than in ’08. Yes, this is highly scientific and, no, I’m not going to share my methodology, but it does factor in the new IF corners, and the new MIFs. That puts us at 85 wins.
It's a Festivus Miracle!
Another optimistic outlook from GRM.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
Doubt it.
He didn’t randomly show up uninvited and tell you that the Giants have a 23.485768273849% chance to win the NL West, according to his almighty “simulation”.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
I also think that people tend to be overly optimistic at this time of the year.
Doesn’t saying that people are overly optimistic make you pessimistic, and therefore disprove your point?
My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman
Is it possible to be overly optimistic? Either your optimistic or you’re not, amirite?
by AngelWillSaveUs on Dec 29, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Nah
“The Giants will win 90 games” – optimistic
“The Giants will win 120 games and the world series” – overly optimistic
yeah, there’s drinking the Kool-Aid and then there’s drinking the Kool Aid Man.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 30, 2008 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
Overly optimistic
“The Giants will win 90 games.” Overly optimistic.
I always think the team can and will contend. Realism and rational are traits I use elsewhere.
2009—The future is unwritten!
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
We contend every year.
Right down to the wire of elimination.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 29, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Probably not.
Better than last season works for me.
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 29, 2008 1:38 PM PST reply actions
Or, how about:
All ur Cy Yungs are belong to us!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
by Lyle on Dec 29, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
perfect!
Then Sanchez gets his in 2010, Bumgarner in 2012, and we’re set for the decade! Party on!
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
You left out Zito's rebound cy young in 2011
/ducks shoes thrown by people who don’t get sarcasm
Why does Sabean always look constipated?
Cyborg Barry Zito?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
STD-free PX90 Barry Zito
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
I thought the STDs gave him strength.
He metabolizes the simplex virus.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Then why does he still suck?
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
NEEDS MOAR
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Turn off his virus scan
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Or how about this for the 2009 slogan
takeagiantstepandbebetterthanlastyear or TAGSABBTLY for short.
Proud father of Eric Surkamp!!!
Thanks
I think most people were mentally prepared for another “better than last season” yet mediocre to bad ’09 with the idea that the Giants were shooting for ’10 contention. I still see that as a reasonable target. Just because the rest of the division sucks is no reason to chuck that out the window.
Another step in improvement is good enough.
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 29, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions
I like the way you are thinking.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
how about, “You can look now!”
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
This offseason has ruined me
I was ready for another year of bad team with long term goals. Now, I think it’s an ok team in a bad division with long term goals. I voted that I expect them to contend. I’m set up for anger and failure. Thanks again Sabean!
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Perhaps
But the myth that a team only need get to the postseason, because in the postseason anything can happen, is just that … a myth. Since the Giants went to the World Series in 2002, NL West teams have posted a 3-20 record in series which they have been eliminated.
I’m pretty sure there was a players’ strike i 2002
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Dec 29, 2008 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Wait, if they are eliminated from those series doesn’t that mean they would have a poor record anyway? I’m not sure of the relevence of that statement.
They should have a losing record, yes. But a 3-20 record? That tells the story. The point is, NL West teams aren’t equipped to contend for a World Series title. Sure, they may get past a team in the playoffs, like the Dodgers last year. But the Cubs self-destructed in that series. Even when the Rockies got to the World Series in 2007, we saw what happens when a hot team hits the wall against a better team that is truly geared to compete in the postseason.
I agree, the stat is a bit skewed. After all, the AL West has only won five games in elimination series since 2003. Still proves my point though that the NL West is the least-equipped team in baseball to compete in the postseason.
A 3-20 record might indicate something, but it’s probably just a statistcal blip. It doesn’t prove the “anything can happen” mindset wrong. I’d give a really good playoff team a 60% chance of winning a series against a lackluster playoff team, and that’s at the extreme end of the spectrum. Usually, it’s 55/45 to 50/50.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2008 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
I conceed the blip, but I think the way the Rockies were dominated in the World Series demonstrates that a decent team can’t win it all simply because it is hot. As for the current Giants team; could contend for the NL West pennant in ’09 … nowhere near a WS contender.
I think the Rockies weren’t as likely to win the World Series as were the Red Sox, but that they still had a 40% chance or so. To say that a decent team can’t win it all isn’t quite right; they’re less likely to do so, but not by a crazy amount.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2008 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree that the 2006 Cards were merely a decent team. They had an MVP hitter, an ace one year removed from a Cy Young, a Molina at catcher, and a manager going to his fifth World Series. Add Scott Rolen, Jim Edmonds, and Dave Eckstein to the mix, that’s a great team. Just because a team only wins 83 games in the regular season doesn’t make that team mediocre. They were competing with the Astros for the division, and they had Clemens & Oswalt at the top of their rotation for crying out loud.
Molina and the rest of that lineup is pretty damn awful at the plate.
The pitching staff was not great for a playoff team either. They just had a bunch of guys get hot in the playoffs.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
What Molina did at the plate doesn’t concern me. He had a great year in ‘06 because of what he did behind the plate. And the rest of that team was absolutely NOT mediocre. The numbers don’t reflect how good their bullpen was that year. Braden Looper, Adam Wainright, and Josh Hancock provided some of the most consistent middle relief in all of baseball that year. Jeff Weaver was a great pickup and had a phenomenal September and October. Juan Encarnacion and Chris Duncan both had remarkable seasons … Encarnacion was pound-for-pound one of the best defensive right fielders of his era. And, then you have Albert Pujols … the best player in baseball, who had what will probably stand as the best season of his career.
The ’06 Cards were a great team.
We’re kind of straying from the argument, but I’ll bring it back….
- The Cards were 6th in the league in runs scored and 9th in the league in runs allowed.
- There has never been a catcher in the history of the game whose defense could make up for 417 at-bats from a sub-.300 on-base percentage hitter. If his defense was that good, the Cardinals probably would have allowed fewer runs.
- Their starting staff went Ace, Good, Awful, Awful, and Worse. They almost certainly had the worst rotation in the postseason, even accounting for Carpenter. Weaver wasn’t that good, but I’ll get to that.
- Albert Pujols had a phenomenal year, but every team in the playoffs had players as good as Edmonds, Eckstein, Hancock, et al. That’s the point. Every team that makes the playoffs has good players, and they can all go nuts in the postseason. The Mets had above-average hitters at every position, which is pretty remarkable.
- The bullpen might have been above average, but they were certainly nothing special. They were probably the worst bullpen out of the NL playoff teams, though the Dodgers’ bullpen wasn’t as incredible as that of the Mets and Padres. The Padres had a special bullpen.
If Jeff Weaver doesn’t pitch five of the best games of his life, the Cards don’t win the Series. He was a total fluke; not only did he regress the following year, but he’s out of baseball now. And that’s an example of why I’ll always believe that any team that makes the playoffs can win it all. The odds might be slightly against them, but everyone has a decent chance.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
Weaver was a darn good pitcher with something left in the tank, and he saved it for the right time. That’s the way it goes with pitchers sometimes. He was not a total fluke. Buddy Biancalana was a total fluke. I agree with your first sentence about Weaver, but there was more to it than luck. The Cards may not have had exceptional individual pitchers, but they had exceptional pitching depth, and a manager and pitching coach with the postseason experience to steer them to a World Series ring.
As for Molina … that’s far from an anomoly. Look at the ‘87 Twins, or the years Ray Fosse had with the World Champions A’s teams of the ‘70s. Catchers that can’t bat their weight can still navigate World Series contenders.
Weaver was a darn good pitcher with something left in the tank, and he saved it for the right time. That’s the way it goes with pitchers sometimes.
Or, he could have pitched over his head in a very small sample size.
Not the case with Weaver. Giants fans should know better than anyone that Weaver was the real deal. His arm just started falling out of its socket in ’06.
He stopped keeping the ball in the yard way back in 05. He didn’t look like a different pitcher in 06 to me than the guy who obviously had a fork sticking out of him in 07.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
WHATISTHISREASON CARDS WERE A GREAT TEAM I WILL NOT DEVIATE, 83 WINS ARE GREAT ECKSTEIN WAS REASON THEY WON
MVP
Need any other reasons why MVP voting is retarded? Sure, it was WS and not regular season, but it just shows what writers think is important- being small and white and “throwbacky”, but not necessarily being a good baseball player.
OMG UR SO DUM MVP=SCRAPPY LOLZ!!!!!!!!
ECKSTINE IS TEH BEST AND I WANT TO HAVE HIS BABIES IN MY BUTT LOLZ!!!!!!!!!!
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
their rotation was Chris Carpenter and....
…Jeff Suppan?
their lineup was Albert Pujols, Scott Rolen, and Jim Edmonds. The rest of the lineup was pretty worthless, and it’s kinda laughable to say Eckstein helped them THAT much. Compared to most WS winning teams, the Cards were preeeetty mediocre.
If
If the 2006 Cardinals were a great team, I am a young, handsome, intelligent, wealthy man who never needs to sleep or eat.
They weren’t a team of superstars, but they were a great team. This year’s Angels team reminded me a lot of that team. One superstar surrounded by a lot of depth with a manager that knew how to utilize it.
oh my god
would you just admit that they were a pretty bad team and that Grant’s statement was right? Wtf
Yes
Yes. The 2006 Cardinals were the second-greatest team ever.
They won 94 and lost 83, for a winning percentage of .531, placing them second all-time in winning percentage.
They beat the Mets four games to three to make the World Series, outscoring the Mets 28-27 for the second-largest run differential in NLCS history. The run differential was so great that most considered the Cardinals’ winning the series to be a de facto sweep.
Their pitcher who tied for the fourth-most starts was Anthony Reyes. Reyes was the second-greatest starting pitcher ever, being traded straight up just last season for Luis Perdomo, who cost the Giants the second-highest amount of money ever paid to acquire a player: $50,000.
You would have heard much more about this great team if their many accomplishments had been the best rather than the second-best.
Second-best to which other great team, you ask? All the others tied for first.
by sharksrog on Dec 30, 2008 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Wow! That was completely laced with piles of vigilante awesome.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Ironically, the ’06 Cards pretty much won that division by its dominant 23-11 record over NL West teams in the regular season.
People made the point that my NL West playoff record stat was arbitrary and skewed. But so are regular season records, in an era where teams play a majority of their games within their own division.
The starting rotation of that team was an interesting case. They were healthy and solid to start the year. Carpenter, Suppan, Mulder, and Marquis were a pretty dominant top four. After all, the Cards had a +.600 winning percentage over the first two months. But when Mulder got hurt, the chemistry of the entire rotation fell apart because he was the only lefty, and the team scuffled for the rest of the season to win the diviision … which they were able to do because they got out to a decent lead early, and paced themselves through the loss of Mulder from there on.
That Cards team had depth coming out of its beaks. Not in their starting rotation, but they made up for it in their bullpen and in the field, and with one of the best managerial seasons I have ever witnessed. Sure, that regular-season starting rotation may have been held together with duct tape. But, that’s a testiment to the skills of Larussa and Dave Duncan.
The bottom line is they won the World Series. If you can discount that as a crap shoot, then I don’t see what your point is by placing so much prestige in it to beg the Giants to win one.
rog
how did you make the background of your post green? Or is that just my monitor going bad?
Sergio Romo: striking out professional hitters since 2005.
It happens when four people recommend a post. It’s cool, though I think it personally think it should turn orange at this site.
by StickRat on Dec 30, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Because he is the Batman.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
I KNOW WHAT I MEAN!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with Grant. During the regular season, the best teams win ~60% of their games, meaning the best teams have on average a ~60% chance of winning each game. I do not see why their odds would improve during the postseason… in fact, you would expect their odds of winning to decrease, since their playoff opponents will be better than the average regular-season opponent.
Using NL West teams going 3-20 in series' in which they've been eliminated is a bit silly and arbitrary.
Along those same lines, the NL Central teams have gone 7-25 in series’ in which they’ve been eliminated since 2002, which is only slightly better, yet also ignores the fact that NL Central teams played in 3 World Series’ during that time, and won 1.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Not necessarily taking issue with your basic assertion,
just the way in which you’re using that number — it’s arbitrary. It’s like saying “Dbacks were 0-80 this past season in games in which they were outscored”.
The NL Central makes a bit of a lousy example anyway, since it’s a 6 team division.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
The NL West TempestTeapot Case In Point!
Cinderella happened.
Cinderella can happen.
Cinderella will happen.
We’re already contending. I like our chances to maintain that status.
If you’ll send $39.95 I’ll send you a disc with a wonderful PowerPoint presentation of that featuring Lenin , The Lennon Sisters (and brother John)
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 29, 2008 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
and if you take 02 into account...
they’re now 3-8.
The decline of the NL West really started in ‘04 though, and it really bottomed out in ’05. That’s my point. Teams in the NL West just aren’t equiped to make a legit run at a World Series title. C’mon, Manny Ramirez got the most MVP votes of anyone in the division last season.
MVP voting
means absolutely nothing. What does that have to do with anything? Suddenly we’re judging teams’ worth by what a bunch of idiotic baseball writers who don’t know what VORP or OPS means think?
OOPS , I acidentally knocked over your GORP.
If as by magic a team overachieves (Was that the year the Cards stunk it up just before they hit the playoffs , letting a seven game lead collapse or something like that?) ., if the sum becomes more than the parts , if a player plays WAY over his statistical head…
…wait…
…no , I think I’ll keep this tack. Eckstein made the right plays , made the right key hits. If he happened to be the guy who kept the series alive for the Cards why would you not hand him the MVP? I agree , you could argue it either way – if Pujols doesn’t mash for THREE MONTHS then Eck has no stage to shine on – but the reverse also applies in that if that funkyfreshsprite doesn’t do his Man Of The Moment thing then all Albert’s monsterizing is for naught.
It’s a toughie , glad it doesn’t fall to me. Bet you are too.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 7:23 AM PST up reply actions
Different arguement here
above I was saying Eck’s MVP was stupid, though I guess not completely ridiculous. However, when someone is using Manny’s majority of MVP votes as a reason the NL West “can’t compete” (since he was such a late addition and got so many votes and yadda yadda), I just think that’s BS. It’s like how people use Pro Bowl berths as measures of an NFL player’s worth when all it is is a popularity contest.
I don’t think awards should be the measure we use to value a player, since they’re voted on by a bunch of idiots. The fact that there was any doubt whatsoever that Lincecum was the Cy Young winner this year just shows how clueless these guys are. “What? Look at his team! They had a terrible offense so he must be a terrible pitcher!!”
I doubt it
I doubt there was a single person voting for the Cy Young Award who said or thought “What? Look at this team! They had a terrible offense so he must be a terrible pitcher!!”
Other than that, though, I think the feeling that he was a terrible pitcher was unanimous.
That's more or less....
….what “Wins” is a measurement of….
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
If you can make a legit argument that the hitting in the NL West is anywhere close to other divisions, I’d like to read it. Not only was Ramirez the NL West MVP … he was the only position player that got legitimate consideration. Ramirez was 4th overall, and the next NL West player was Brandon Webb at 17th.
Ultimately though, what is of more importance is the NL West hasn’t won a World Series game since 2002. And, they have only won five NLCS games … four of which were by the Rockies defeating Arizona, another NL West team.
Why are we
drawing the line at 2002, by the way? Simply because including 2001 and 2002 doesn’t fit in your argument?
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
As previously stated, the talent in the NL West has declined dramatically since then. C’mon, had Manny Ramirez not come along, a sub-.500 team could have very well won the division last year.
“Just because a team only wins 83 games in the regular season doesn’t make that team mediocre.” – StickRat
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it’s a case-by-case basis. In ’06, the Cards were 23-11 against the West and 16-15 against the East, so their best competition came from within their own division. Not the case in the West anytime in recent memory.
Do me a favor and don’t throw my own words in my face. I’m thorough, and deserve a little more respect than that.
I’m sorry. I guess I don’t understand. You want to disagree about a subject, but the people you are discussing this with can’t use your own arguments to make their case?
Is that correct?
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
You can use words to make an argument … but make an argument. Don’t just quote me and leave it at that, if for no other reason than nothing I say is that profound. The people I am with whom I am discussing the subject can use whatever they want to make an argument. But make an argument. Don’t just get snarky with me from the peanut gallery. Or do so if you wish … however, be warned that I am pretty skilled at wingin’ peanuts.
Well, since I’ve been following this discussion all day (yeah, it is that boring at work), I will say that it looks like you are cherry picking numbers to define a “great team”. The rest of your backing points seem to be based on superficial things like MVP voting, managerial roster utilization and pitcher’s saving whatever is “in their tank” for the right time.
From a peanut thrower’s POV, it all looks rather silly.
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
OK, so let’s break this down. Based on your latest reply, simply winning a World Series qualifies a team as “great”? It isn’t about records against other divisions or roster depth or the gamerishness of midget middle infielders? Winning 4 of 7 from the other league = great?
Am I outlining your argument correctly?
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t know very many people who remember team records over WS winners. Seriously, I just about forgot the Angels won 100 games this year.
I remembered that. though I think that’s a point against using records to judge postseason teams. The Angels fattened up on the weak sisters of the NL west.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Am I outlining your argument correctly?
No you aren’t. I think the ‘03 Marlins weren’t a particularly great team. But I happen to think St. Louis played their cards right in ’06 and engineered a World Championship. Note: The Cards won four of five in the ’06 Series.
My, how soon we forget.
Aren’t statistics based on small sample sizes fun?
Yeah, it’s a case-by-case basis. In ’06, the Cards were 23-11 against the West and 16-15 against the East, so their best competition came from within their own division. Not the case in the West anytime in recent memory.
2007: Dbacks finish 90-72, win the NL West and lead the NL in wins, largely on the basis of going 24-9 vs. the NL East and 22-20 vs. the NL Central. By the way, neither this example nor your 2006 Cards example presents complete information: the Dbacks’ and Cards’ interdivision records yield a remainder that includes not only each team’s intradivision record, but interleague games as well.
Additionally, in 2007, the Dbacks and Rox each won 90 games (including the Rox’ play-in victory) and the Rox took the NL wild card slot; the Padres, who finished third in the division with 89 victories, being shut out of the playoffs, finished with as many wins as the next-highest non-NL West team. (The Phillies also won 89 games) In fact, the 3rd place Padres’ record would have won them the NL Central outright.
The Dbacks and Rox met in the NLCS, and the Rox ended up in the WS. Even though they were swept by the Red Sox, I’d say that’s a pretty strong season for the NL West.
Include the Dodgers’ victory over the Cubs this season, (2008) and you end up with a division that’s provided 3 out of the last 4 NLCS teams. I’d say that’s pretty solid.
And in the Rockies in 2007 and the Dodgers in 2006, the NL West has provided 2 out of the last 3 NL Wild Card teams as well. Both the champion Padres and wild card Dodgers would have won the NL Central in 2006.
Now, the NL West was a weak division in 2005, with the Padres taking it with 82 Ws, but in light of an unusually strong year in 2007, I can’t see any evidence whatsoever that the NL West has been a lousy division since 2002 and, as previously noted, the two years before your arbitrary starting point, the NL West provided the NL’s World Series representative, with the champion Dbacks taking the series in 2001 and the wildcard Giants losing in 2002.
Taken together, you could make an argument for a relatively weak division between 2003 and 2005; but that’s hardly statistically significant; additionally, the NL West champion Giants in 2003 won 100 games, second only to the Braves in the National League.
So, basically your contention that the NL West has been weak since “after 2002” is a lot of statistical hooey based on selectively small sample sizes and a selective memory. Your continued support of the 2006 Cardinals as a “great team” isn’t doing you any argumentative favors, either.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The ’07 D-Backs were a pretty darn good team. However, they ultimately were snakebit by their inexperience. Young, unknown players have a way of surprising veteran ones. And, I think the D-Backs kinda blitzed the rest of the NL with their youth in ’07. That they declined much sooner in ’08 after a hot start corroberates this assertion.
As for the back-to-back wild card berths in ’06 & ’07:
The ‘06 Dodgers wouldn’t have won the NL Central. They feasted on fellow NL West team, and were 0-7 against the Cardinals in the regular season.
The ’07 Rockies won 14 of their last 15 regular-season games, but 13 of those wins were against NL West teams.
The ’04 and ’05 seasons are by no means an arbitrary starting point. It is when the landscape of MLB began to shift due to the beginning of the demise of the steroid era.
Man the teams I think are bad are the teams you think are good.
I thought the 07 Diamondbacks were very mediocre.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Yeah, they were okay. They won the division, so gotta give them props there. And it’s tough to ignore the season Jose Valverde had. Up-and-down the lineup they were very solid. No real superstar names — well, a couple in the making maybe — but got really stellar performances by Eric Byrnes and Mark Reynolds. And their rotation was a lot better than it looks on paper. Their weakness was: too much inexperience up-and-down the lineup.
I think the bullpen was the really the only exceptional part of that team. The starting pitching looks a lot uglier next to other playoff teams, and their lineup only had 4 above average hitters with nobody way above average. Reynolds and Byrnes were nice, but compare those guys with the guys who were the hitting stars of other teams.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I think that’s why we differ in our ideas of what are good teams. Individual performances don’t interest me so much as how a team performs as a team. I think having star-caliber players can be a great benefit. The ‘07 D-Backs compensated with a balance up-and-down the lineup, and they were legit because of it. Didn’t every starter have double digits in homeruns? And, their middle rotation of Davis, Hernandez, and Owings was actually pretty darn effective. Owings was the only one that failed them in the post-season, and I think there is a lot to be said for how the styles of Davis and Hernandez offset one another. And yeah, that bullpen was nails.
I don’t know if we differ in philosophy or just what we remember. I remember Livan as a bad pitcher repeatedly getting bailed out by an unusually deep and effective pen, and an offense that had a lot of players that hit homeruns but as a team didn’t really score that much. I think they barely outscored the Giants last year.
The rest of the team’s pitching was effective (Webb as usual, was excellent that year), but not really exceptional for a playoff team.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I guess with Hernandez, I’m recalling the postseason he had. During the game vs. Colorado in the NLCS, I remember thinking: Why couldn’t he pitch like this in Game 7?! Moment of quiet meditation
Davis had that incredible August though where he was virtually unbeatable. And, Ownings closed out the year with those two epic wins, including a shutout of the Giants.
That’s what I mean by “pretty darn effective” though, is they each stepped up in consecutive months — Davis in August, Owings in September, and Hernandez in October — to contribute.
I really think the NL West is a two team race. As good as Kershaw is, I highly doubt even a great 09 season will be that much better than Lowe’s 08. Even though he blew in 08, Penny is a pretty big loss for them as well. Without Manny the Dodgers should return to being a terrible offense as well (they were only 8 runs better than the Giants Pre All-star). As for the Rockies, they were only 2 wins better with Matt Holliday. I realize Tulowitzki will likely rebound, but short of 07 they’ve finished worse than us for like 5 seasons. Arizona will probably with the division unless something unexpected happens like Zito returning to glory.
why though?
Our pitching beats the shit out of theirs and their offense isn’t that much better than ours, though they could sprout an impact hitter out of Reynolds.
Our pitching beats the shit out of theirs
Not really; not when park-adjusted. 2008 ERA+ for our probable starters:
Brandon Webb 139
Danny Haren 138
Max Scherzer 151 (will almost certainly be lower this year)
Doug Davis 107
Yusmeiro Petit 107
2008 ERA+ for your probable starters:
Timmay 167
Randy Johnson 117
Matt Cain 117
Jonathan Sanchez 87
Barry Zito 85
I think that’s gonna be your rotation, right? Since Correia’s gone? (With his ERA+ of 75) You’ve really only got a definite advantage in the #1 matchup — Timcecum vs. Webby.
Reynolds really needs to clean up his defense to help the team much — led the majors in errors AND strikeouts last year, and set a new franchise record for both.
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You’ve really only got a definite advantage in the #1 matchup — Timcecum vs. Webby.
I would take Cain over Scherzer. Cain has done it for three seasons now, Scherzer is a good prospect but come back to me when he’s thrown near 650 innings of 120 ERA+ baseball. Doug Davis is pretty solid every year, but Sanchez has a much higher upside which he might hit in ‘09. I’ll give you Haren since he’s really good. Zito and Petit are probably a draw. I’m not a big fan of either.
I would take Cain over Scherzer. Cain has done it for three seasons now, Scherzer is a good prospect but come back to me when he’s thrown near 650 innings of 120 ERA+ baseball.
I’d call that a subjective assessment but I’d also agree that consistency is important. Like I said, I highly doubt Scherzer’s gonna pitch a 151 again this year.
Doug Davis is pretty solid every year, but Sanchez has a much higher upside which he might hit in ‘09.
Of course, if you’re going to use consistency vs. potential to rank Cain above Scherzer, you’d have to do the same thing with Sanchez, and probably Lincecum too, since he’ll only be entering his 3rd season. Not that anybody really thinks Lincecum won’t continue to pitch this well, but it’s far from certain.
Zito and Petit are probably a draw. I’m not a big fan of either.
Petit’s had an ERA+ over 100 both years he’s been with the Dbacks. I don’t think he necessarily has a lot of upside, but I’d take him over Zito right now.
Note that I didn’t claim that the Dbacks’ rotation is better than the Giants’; only that the Giants aren’t significantly better than the Dbacks, if at all.
Lincecum > Webby (But not by a lot. Lincecum had the stronger 2008 but Webby also regressed slightly from 2006/2007 to 2008)
Johnson < Haren (Not much argument there)
Cain <> Scherzer (I’d say Scherzer has more upside but, as you pointed out, Cain has the consistent record, and Scherzer’s also an injury risk. Call it a push, perhaps a slight edge to Cain, but it’s not nearly as clear-cut as Lincecum over Webby or Haren over Johnson)
Sanchez < Davis (Sanchez has the higher upside, but he’s never even pitched above 91 in ERA+. Davis is at 105 for his career. In this case, I’ll take the consistency over potential.)
Zito <> Petit (If Zito can rediscover his velocity, take him over Petit. But Petit’s had better numbers the past 2 years.)
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I think I mostly agree. I think the key in Sanchez v. Davis is health. If Sanchez is healthy and Doug Davis outpitches him, I’ll eat my hat. But, alas health is a skill, and not one Durty’s shown yet.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Well, in Davis' favor,
he’ll be guaranteed not to get a cancerous thyroid gland removed this season. So, there’s that.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 11:20 PM PST up reply actions
Around the house
Barry Zito left his velocity somewhere around the house. He can’t quite remember where, but he’s convinced he will rediscover it before spring training. It couldn’t have just walked out of the house.
We may be in luck
Brian Wilson was helping him search his house.
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
Very solid argument
But I’d still give us the pitching edge because your guys’ entire bullpen just left for free agency, and it’s unlikely they’re coming back. After we signed Affeldt and Howry, our bullpen seems to look pretty decent. We now have a setup man and some acceptable middle relief. Also, Sanchez may well improve, and Zito might as well, though I wouldn’t count on it. And as you already said, Scherzer probably wont maintain his performance from last year, though he’ll probably still be pretty good, but I’d still give Cain the edge on him. Your lineup is definitely better than ours, though.
The one positive I would give to the DBacks pitching though is durability. There’s probably no objective basis for it but I just worry about every starter with the exception of Cain. Lincecum is such an anomaly that I don’t know what to expect. I think he’ll enjoy a long exceptional career, but he’s so small! RJ I think will pay off, but I don’t think anyone will book 32 starts for him. I think Sanchez will develop into a stud 3, but I also think he’ll never be able to log 200+ innings for several consecutive seasons. Webb and Haren both seem really dependable workhorses. Again I’m not saying this off an logical platform, but the fan intuition inside me definitely worries.
by SeeingStars on Dec 29, 2008 10:38 PM PST up reply actions
Durability....
….except for Mad Max Scherzer.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
Bullpen?
Um, yeah. I don’t really wanna talk about bullpens right now….
I’d call our starting rotation marginally superior when taken in aggregate, but…. errr, like I said, let’s forget about bullpens.
The biggest issue with Scherzer is that the FO is basically counting on him to be an effective 3rd-5th starter next season, and his odd delivery makes him a serious injury risk. If Scherzer stays healthy the whole season, you might see an ERA+ in the mid-120s to mid-130s. That is, if he doesn’t lose his control, either.
I think your most positive development in terms of Zito might simply be that he couldn’t pitch much worse this season even if he tried.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
we said that before last season :(
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I do have to agree with you, though,
in that I think the best case scenario would have to happen for us to win the division; Reynolds has to rebound from his sophomore slump; Drew needs to swing the bat like the 2nd half of the ’08 season; Conor Jackson needs to find some more power; Lopez needs to credibly replace Hudson; Young needs to have a year like 2007; Upton has to break out; and NOBODY CAN BE INJURED, ESPECIALLY WEBB OR HAREN.
I think we can count on some of those things happening, but probably not all of them. As far as I can tell, the division could be won by anyone.
Except the Padres. They’re just plain pathetic.
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Except the Padres. They’re just plain pathetic.
That used to be us! I’m soooooo proud of Sabean from lifting us from “plain pathetic!” Baby steps.
by Grant Brisbee on Dec 29, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
I'm glad too, frankly.
I like you all much better than those douchebags at Gaslamp Ball. And I just plain hate the Padres.
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The Dodgers may not be Dunn yet
The Dodgers are said by Jason Stark to be looking at Adam Dunn as a backup plan to Manny Ramirez. The big thing about signing either is that it keeps Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre out of the lineup.
I guess if the Giants wanted to really have some fun, they could
wait for the Dodgers to sign Dunn for 4/$50 million, and then sign a newly-motivated Manny for 2/$45 million to play 1B (we’d have Ishi as a late-inning defensive sub). Manny would behave because we now have the Big Unit, and he wouldn’t be a cancer to the kids, and he’d love the City, and JT could teach him how to play 1B, and . . . . and . . . . . and . . (realizes the nonsense he’s spewing )
/ducks behind counter to avoid flying beer bottles/
Matt Cain's drinking buddy
They could, not likely
Granted you said ‘as it stands today’. I fully expect the Dodgers to do…. something this offseason. Re-sign Manny and/or add starting pitching. The D-Backs are more likely to have break-out performances from their young players than we are. The Rockies should improve because everything went wrong for them last year. I’ll be happy if the Giants finish 3rd & close to a .500 record. But it should be fun AS LONG AS BOCHY ACTUALLY STARTS THE KIDS (OMG WHY THE HELL IS RESDOG SCREAMING??) I’m also going to be happy watching the Padres misery.
Scott Hairston’s mom just called, she doesn’t love him either.
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
Padres can burn in Hell.
And screw Scotty Hairston. He went to my HS’s biggest rival in Tucson.
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Yeah, pretty much.
It’s like shop class for them.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 29, 2008 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
I think a lot hinges
on whether or not Manny resigns with the bums. If he does, I think they’re the favorites. If not, I’d say we’re the favorites. I think the D’Backs have a great shot at contending even though they lost Adam Dunn because I expect Mark Reynolds and Conor Jackson to improve. Their main sore spot this year was their abysmal offense, and if all their 20-somethings improve even a little, they may look a lot better. We’re gonna have a pretty shitty division, but I expect us to be mediocre enough to at least hover around contention. I think our offense is going to be pretty much the same as last year, but with, as you said, some production coming out of SS. I don’t wanna pin our hopes on Randy Johnson because he’s very old and very often injured. But if he’s healthy, I’d think we have the rotation to pull ourselves to the playoffs shitty offense and all.
Metalhead.
I can’t stop thinking about Hingis.
I almost gave up trying to find a flattering picture of her.
No , I did not say flatter…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 29, 2008 11:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well played
Very…very…very well played
Leading the Pro-Aaron Rowand contingent on the McC!
You can ridicule me in 2009 if you like...
by ThrillisGone22 on Dec 30, 2008 1:58 AM PST up reply actions
Any team can "contend" in the NL West
A team with this offense, however, will not contend in the post season, nor in competition with even average teams in other, less crappy divisions.
I still long for offense. Where’s dingerz.exe?
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 29, 2008 2:25 PM PST reply actions
I voted "No",
but it’s just because I wanted to throw off the curve. >:-) /evil troll face
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ne sont-ils pas pareils?
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 29, 2008 7:23 PM PST up reply actions
Frogs....
…baseball.
Hmmm…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 7:27 AM PST up reply actions
I don't actually know French,
so I’m having to Google every phrase and then respond in English. Although my Spanish helped me pretty much decipher that last one before I looked it up.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
I know Mr. French
‘cos I’m that old.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
I’m not the cops… i’m not asking you…
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 30, 2008 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
What?
I like you all much better than those douchebags at Gaslamp Ball.
San Diego must be in utter ruin then.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
We're going back and forth
with lines from The Departed
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
OT:
The Departed <<<<<<<<<<Infernal Affairs
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
both are excellent.
no need to disparage either film.
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 30, 2008 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
Still haven't seen the latter.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
An Andy Garcia staple.
Gere is wonderfully smug in his criminality , and who doesn’t like seeing a Baldwin blown away?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Infernal Affairs?
a brilliant HK flick with Liu Dehua and Tony Leung.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Oh jeez.
I was thinking InTernal Affairs.
ok , gonna go read some warfare on Az Snakepit and forget this ever happened.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
I've already forgotten
WAR!
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Geez
All this over RJ?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
No, RJ is just the excuse.
’Hacks and Jim have been feuding for years. ’Hacks has already been banned from the ’Pit (and later reinstated) once.
RJ is sorta like the Gavrilo Princip in this case. He’s the excuse, but not the cause, of the current war.
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with all due respect...mr. dbackskins
school is out.
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 30, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe someday you'll wake the fuck up.
Enjoy your clams, cocksuckers.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
So I had a few beers at lunch
but contending this year seems pretty logical to me right now… so I went with “Maybe…there’s a decent chance, I suppose”… maybe I’ll reply to my own post when totally sober
Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!
hang around, maybe
but the team as currently constructed, which is probably the team that we break camp with, is not a division winning team.
yes, we could get lucky:
- Cain and Sanchez both have breakout years
- RJ stays healthy enough to throw 180 good innings
- Lincecum stays the same or improves slightly
- Zito gets close to 2005/2006 levels
then yeah, we might contend because a staff that good with this improved bullpen (another thing that needs to go right) will be a lot to handle for any team in any series, regardless of what the offense ultimately produces, which will definitely be better, though not much better.
And if the team is contending down the stretch, then a deadline deal may be in the cards. We can’t say what that’d be right now, but you never know.
but overall, this team will struggle to score runs, get good pitching, have some unexpected injuries (most likely candidates: Sanchez, Molina, Lewis, and RJ) and the best case scenario is about 78 wins.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 29, 2008 3:03 PM PST reply actions
I think you left out
the improved bullpen. I see that as a big key. Sometimes last year the starters stayed in too long to try and keep the ’pen from blowing it.
I think the bullpen will make a difference this year. How much? Time will tell, but I like illusion of competitive respectability.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
Well stated
Well stated, No Stocks Just Bonds.
I feel sorry for those that voted "No".
This feeling of, they might contend, has me almost giddy. Sure, all of us that voted some level of contention will probably wind up being disappointed, but for now, pass the koolaid.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
Now You Guys Are Scaring Me
The McCoven seems to be coming around to the Rainman’s way of thinking. I am not sure what to make of this.
mmmmm
put me down for an order of gonzo with a slice of co-jack
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 29, 2008 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
Well, somebody joking mentioned not having expectations as a way to baseball nirvana, but that’s what I do. I enjoyed almost every game I decided to listen to/watch of last year, and got treated to my second-greatest baseball fantasy coming true, a young Giants pitcher winning the Cy Young award. However, I’ll confess to hoping to finish at or near .500.
My 1000th post
How to spend it? Robb Nen of course.
Sweet.
You know how hard it is to go 1000 posts and bring so little to the table? Zito is teaching me well.
Get to 17,000 and we’ll talk.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2008 11:15 PM PST up reply actions
pfft 17k is nothing
call me when you get to 20,000
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
But could you have done it....
…without replying to yourself?
Leading the Pro-Aaron Rowand contingent on the McC!
You can ridicule me in 2009 if you like...
by ThrillisGone22 on Dec 30, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions
I'm guessing that makes it
a little more difficult
Leading the Pro-Aaron Rowand contingent on the McC!
You can ridicule me in 2009 if you like...
by ThrillisGone22 on Dec 30, 2008 2:00 AM PST up reply actions
65 , 531
Oh , wait…that’s my “Ms. Pac Man” high score…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 2:10 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but you only have 316 on this blog.
I’m easily over 20,000 if I include the other blogs I post on.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 7:07 AM PST up reply actions
Your post in that fight with Geomak over at NN was epic. I have to congratulate you on that one. Epic.
You should read 'Skins' latest rebuttals in the Pit.
Oh , wait…got my Diamonds mixed up , lol
That battle apparently is being waged on a couple of different fields…wow.
I KNOW it’s raising the AzCentral intelligent posting curve!
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 7:36 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah....
I tend to stay neutral in that fight, which is now taking place across three continents — the AZCentral message boards, the SnakePit, and Diamondhacks’ blog. When TAP and shoewizard occasionally get involved, it spreads to Diamondbacks Bullpen as well. It’s like the World War II of Dbacks fans.
I suppose I agree more with Jim, but I don’t always approve of his tactics. It’s getting more and more bitter….
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Inside convo.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Ongoing feud....
….between Jim McLennan aka AZSnakepit, and Diamondhacks.
The Arizona Republic (AZCentral)
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
There you are. I have you now.
You’re normally civil , what ’s with the flame above?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Hopefully, it is “reality flavored” kool aid. That is my favorite!
by Lars The Wanderer on Dec 30, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
the delightful scent of hobo pee
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
I prefer Tang myself.
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
I saw that too.
Remind me, why are we nuts for being ecstatic about RJ taking Pat Misch’s innings?
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Fewer dingerz now.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
That is the entire reason that I usually don’t post serious comments.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
Yup.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 7:35 PM PST up reply actions
u r n00b hear.
But don’t feel like you have to downplay your overall prolific… ness (?)… because of it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
DbacksSkins is easier than Super Mario Bros. using warps and a game genie.
What, you really think we thought “Skins” was a football thing?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
LOL
You think it isn’t?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
'tis true.
I am a whore.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
DAT?
Ha!
In the war of obsolete technology I wield the mighty Minidisc!
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 7:38 AM PST up reply actions
No, he was referring to file extensions.
Personally, I’ll take SYS or BAT over DAT any day.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
DMG<WAD
pwned!!
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 30, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve always had 3 groups for ball clubs.
A) Those that can reasonable compete and expect to win any given game.
B) Those that can reasonable compete and expect to win any given 3 game series.
C) Those that an opponent can reasonable expect compete to win 1 game in a 3 game series.
Right now I view the Giants a "B" class team. As long as the front office remembers to act like it’s a "B" class team things should be good for us and only getting better. Just for kicks I see no "C" class teams in the division. And depending on how the Rockies Eternal Quest of 6 pitchers to give average or better production there could be 2 "A" class teams. So be default the Giants might be in the 3 teams going into the season. The turn up a big bat that fits or another move that tightens up the infield defense and they should be in the top 3 of the division on their on merits.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
"...that can (has?) reasonable compete...
Oh no…Dave’s a LOLCAT.
This entire site needs a 12 Fresh Steps program before we all start coughing up a Hairball…
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions
fair enough.
I’ll take my rabbit wearing a pancake. Maybe later I’ll try and restate it clean it up some.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Screw that , ugly is pretty.
Unless you’re name is Johnson. Then it’s just ugly.
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 30, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
C is average?
Isn’t a “C” team average? I would give the Giants a C-.
the NL west sucks
nothing is pointing towards any team winning 84 games like the dodgers did last year….
i think .500 ball in a weak division is something that can be achieved
From Baseball Think Factory
22. Excal Posted: December 27, 2008 at 03:46 PM (#3038931)
Lot of talk about SF publicizing Johnson’s quest for 300 wins like Bonds’ HR record. Am I the only one who looks at the Giants’ offense and thinks that if Randy’s trying to make it to 300, he should have signed a 2-year deal?
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 31, 2008 3:13 AM PST reply actions
bah. If Zito can win 5 on last year’s team, RJ should have five before the break.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
+1
I Don't Tolerate Intolerance!
Jeremy Affeldt Ready To Make His Father Proud
by Giant among Angels on Dec 31, 2008 6:31 PM PST up reply actions
Please.
At least six. lawwl
Hap – e Nu Ear!
Who has the fun?
Is it always the man with the gun?
- The Stranglers
by victor frankenstein on Dec 31, 2008 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
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