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Furcal To the A's ................?

"Possibly demonstrating that he's in the final stages of his decision-making process, Furcal, widely considered the top shortstop available in free agency, traveled to Oakland to meet with A's officials. Accompanied by his wife, Glenny, and his agent, Paul Kinzer, Furcal stopped at the Oakland Coliseum, drove through neighborhoods where he might live and had lunch with A's general manager Billy Beane." 

 

"Although Furcal was in Northern California, he didn't bother to tour the other side of San Francisco bay -- home of the Giants, his other serious suitor. Kinzer said that he hadn't spoken with Giants officials in two days." 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081125&content_id=3693616&vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp&c_id=oak&partnerId=rss_oak 

This obviously leads me to believe the Giants and Renteria have come to an agreement if, Furcal and his agent haven't spoken to the Giants in two days even though there in the Bay Area

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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I hope so

I mean Furcal is the better player, but at what cost in terms of contract length. I will take Renteria for 2 over Furcal for 4 any day.

Playoffs!!??

by PAWarrior on Nov 25, 2008 10:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Or risk for getting a player on the DL all the time

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 25, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cards also are interested in Renteria

After Furcal comes off the board there will be other teams lining up for Renteria. Will it take a 3yr contract? Stayed tuned. Film at 11.

by wilriv21 on Nov 25, 2008 11:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a great stereotypical line, Wil

…and one I used to love to mimic, but you really can’t use it anymore. Film was replaced by videotape in the mid-70’s at most tv stations. And in the last 2-4 years, most stations have abandoned (or are in the process of abandoning) videotape and going “tapeless” – recording onto digital disks, then inputting into computer systems.

Ah, progress.

//sheds a tear

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Nov 26, 2008 3:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Old fashioned lines still get used out of context, though. For instance, the phrase “above the fold” which comes from printing important newspaper headlines/stories/etc. literally above the fold in the paper so that they would be more immediately visible, is used online to describe anything that appears on the screen without scrolling. I wouldn’t think of folding my computer screen, but hey. So, digital media might still be referred to as film, even though the word has no meaning in a modern context. But I don’t work at a news station, so what do I know?

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Nov 26, 2008 7:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

On a related topic.....

one of my favorite old fashioned lines used out of context is “roll down your window”. Who still has hand crank windows ? Just another example of digital vs analog.

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Nov 26, 2008 8:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

* raises hand *

manual door locks, hand crank windows, AM/FM cassette stereo…

My car is a miracle of modern technology.

by rightcenterfielder on Nov 26, 2008 8:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

1989 AMC Pacer ?

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Nov 26, 2008 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

’59 Karmann Ghia right here

Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACEā„¢ / Adopted brother of the AnVil

by SoFa King Mike on Nov 26, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude..

You are killing me. If that was a ‘59 KG convertible I might have to find out where you live and “appropriate” it. I would love to have that car. Something like this ’66 would do fine though. Just have to find the 10G’s for a used car that I would drive on the weekends :-) I did have a ’72 when I was young and stupid, but of course I wanted something cooler (dumbass that I was), so I sold it to buy a Ford Bronco.

Photobucket

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Nov 26, 2008 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My KG is a coupe

and was a basketcase when I got it back in high school. Man, I wish I had a vert. It’s still an ongoing project 11 years later. Anything pre-’67 is an awesome VeeDub.

It has a 2017cc Type 1 motor with Porsche fanhousing mated to a Porsche 5 speed rolling on some Randars.

I have a 912 and a 356B coupe on standby as well.

Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACEā„¢ / Adopted brother of the AnVil

by SoFa King Mike on Nov 28, 2008 9:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2000 Ford Escort

Nondescript in every way. It’s a former rental car, so features are at a minimum.

Only the best for me.

by rightcenterfielder on Nov 26, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who wants to yell out “Press the button that lowers your car window on this side!” at the yahoos on the road around you?

Oh, and in fairness, if you aren’t me… You’re a yahoo on the road. You all need to learn how to drive.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Nov 26, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I say “Lower your window”

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Nov 26, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you're still rolling your window whether they're powered or not

you can roll the window down with a hand crank
or
you can roll the window down using a servo motor.

either way, rolling occurs.

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Nov 26, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

1981 240D Benz

manual transmission too. It does have a new CD player thought.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?

by zenbitz on Nov 26, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I still go to the record stores, even though I rarely see any records there.

My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman

by Goofus on Nov 28, 2008 4:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I go to record stores and buy records.

Maybe your record stores suck.

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Nov 28, 2008 9:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

GO HOME YOU INDIE HIPSTER

There amass been plenty of articles written this spring about the stud shortstop Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum , as well as the fluid young outfielders and thirteen basemen Kevin Frandsen.
comics | art | Nattowear | McFAQ I & II

by Natto on Nov 28, 2008 10:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I AM HOME NOW SHUT UP IM GOING TO GO LISTEN TO DEATH CAB

GROUGTHINK ALERT

by groug on Nov 28, 2008 11:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I still say I have a “shoot”, or I’m going out to “film”. It’s only recently and with great mental discipline that I’ve managed now and again to say I was going out to “tape” and by the time I managed to get that point it was already no longer true. I can’t imagine how long it’s going to take me to say I’m going out to “disk”.

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Nov 26, 2008 8:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We used to say something along the lines of “Did that get recorded? – Well, the oxide got rearranged.” Now, I guess you could say “I’m going on a digital-capture event.”

Side note that will interest no one but me: the guy who bought our station circa 2000 came to town to give us a pep talk about all the great plans he had, including the transition to digital, which was “where everything is ones and twos.” That pretty much told me everything I needed to know about him. He gutted the station, sold at an excellent profit four years later, and we were still analog.

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Nov 26, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Brings up a point..

Would you sign Renteria now to a 2 year deal and lose a pick? Or would you sign Renteria after he’s been offered arbitration and turned it down (since he knows there’s longer offers out there and since the GM of the Tigers knows this too) to a 3 year deal?

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Nov 26, 2008 8:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You would also lose a pick if Renteria turned down arbitration, correct?

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 8:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

assuming arb is even offered. The deadline to offer it is 12/1. The Tigers are reportedly leaning towards not offering him arbitration. If they knew he already had a multi-year deal in place, they’d be hard pressed not to offer it, knowing Edgar would very likely turn it down, and they’d get their comp pick.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 26, 2008 8:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly..

But the point is the longer negotiations go on, the longer perhaps another team can jump in and raise the price up for him. So you’ll probably lose a pick either way, signing him now just means you’ll get him on a 2 year deal rather than a 3 year deal (or at least 2 year deal with more money than before).

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Nov 26, 2008 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s no way that pick is worth $9 million, if that’s what you’re asking.

I don’t want Renteria for three years unless that third year comes at a steep discount.

by Evan on Nov 26, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought I read that Kinzer said he talked to the Giants yesterday just hours before the bogus Renteria rumor hit the internet.

by Cainer on Nov 25, 2008 10:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

Kinser spoke with the Giants about the rumor, but not with a Giants official?

Or he has a bad memory and he counted the rest of yesterday plus today as two days?

In any case, if he’s in the Bay Area talking with A’s officials and checking out homes but not doing likewise with the Giants, who were supposedly hot and heavy after him (Kinser probably leaked that one), then it looks like they are out of the running for Furcal.

Good, don’t want him for 4 years at over $10M per season, Renteria would be a much more economical purchase relatively, assuming that contract rumor is accurate.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 25, 2008 10:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

every time I see that 4 years over $10 million per season figure for Furcal, it makes my stomach upset. If it actually happened, I might retch all over my keyboard. Please don’t do it Sabes.

Castillo got the DFA. Guestimate for Castillo DFA to come before the 2009 season = 2.

by kennv on Nov 26, 2008 6:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll keep saying it till I’m blue in the face, but Furcal is worth $10-12M per season. It’s a fair contract for him.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 6:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1. Baseball salaries go up so fast that it’s hard to keep one’s mental scale calibrated, but $12 million for a good-but-not-great player is perfectly reasonable these days.

by Evan on Nov 26, 2008 7:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's so much the dollars

As the years. 4 years of any of these guys sounds like a bad idea.

At least with Furcal, he WILL get hurt sometime in that period, allowing Burriss a chance to play ;)

by FairweatherFan on Nov 26, 2008 7:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think everyone would like shorter contract years, but it’s not going to happen. Especially with Furcal who wants 4-years and he’ll get it. I don’t think 4-years is necessarily a deal break, it seems to me to be about between a short term and long term deal.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 7:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Years is the key

Furcal also had ankle problems that took him out of games in 2007, so that is two years in a row that he missed an extended number of games (only 138 in 2007, 36 in 2008) because of health issues.

We’ve already done a contract like that with Durham, he was even better, never was on the DL prior to signing with the Giants plus had 7 straight years of playing 150+ games. I don’t want his long contract clogging the payroll.

If we were signing Furcal to a 2 year for that money, I would be for that. Not sure who I would want between the two if both were getting 2 year contracts, though probably Furcal if pushed. But as xanthan noted, Furcal is most probably getting the 4 years that he wants. That is not worth the risk.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 1, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1*

a healthy Furcal is worth $10-12M per season

Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!

by j14 on Nov 26, 2008 7:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That goes without saying. I’m not a doctor — though I do play one on TV! — so I can’t tell you how healthy Furcal is or isn’t. I will say that up until 2008 he’s been pretty healthy. Like all things, you weigh the risk/reward with him.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, all players have a significant risk of breaking down. I don’t understand the presumption that Furcal is guaranteed to get injured but Renteria, say, is a lock for 154 games a year.

by Evan on Nov 26, 2008 8:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mark Kotsay had the exact same injury as Furcal, that’s the added risk.

The Denker bus is now bound for San Diego. Those who were passengers on it are now angrily stranded at a gas station in Modesto, CA. Not much about baseball here .

by oldjacket on Nov 26, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a bit of a stretch to say that they had the EXACT same injury

Not unless you’ve seen their medical records.

From reports Furcal had surgery to repair a bulging disk in his back. Randy Johnson and JD Drew are both players who have also had to deal with herniated discs.

 Bulging / herniated disc(s) can be caused by a range of different factors. Which leads to different prognosis.

It’s extremely simplistic, and pretty much worthless, to say that one player has a problem with a bulging / herniated disc, another player also had that same problem, ergo they are comparable.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Nov 26, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s perfectly fair. I just don’t understand the mentality that worse for shorter is better just because it’s short. We’re in the situation we’re in because of a lack of talent, not a lack of money. Settling for the bargain bin just because it’s a shorter commitment isn’t going to get us out of that basic talent gap.

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Nov 26, 2008 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, when you consider the Giants overall weakness at SS — only Baltimore had a worse team OPS from the position — I don’t mind kicking in the extra 2-years it takes to get Furcal over someone like Renteria.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 7:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Chron news

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/25/SPOK14C86L.DTL&feed=rss.giants

Says he didn’t snub Giants, was familiar already since from NL, wanted to see Oakland.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin " 2007's Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
"Woo hoo" - Tim "The Kid" Lincecum

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 26, 2008 12:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Is showing Furcal the Oakland Coliseum really the best way to convince him to play there?

by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 26, 2008 7:51 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I hear they’re showing it to him in 3-D.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Nov 26, 2008 8:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did they take the tarps off?

Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACEā„¢ / Adopted brother of the AnVil

by SoFa King Mike on Nov 26, 2008 8:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“See all this foul territory? This is where your foul tips are going to turn into outs! Now how about signing that contract?!”

by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 26, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“Oh, don’t mind that standing pool of stagnant water, hardly any mosquitoes breed in that… Next stop: we’ll check in on the horrible mutant rat-people descended from Raiders fans who got stranded here in the 80’s.”

The Denker bus is now bound for San Diego. Those who were passengers on it are now angrily stranded at a gas station in Modesto, CA. Not much about baseball here .

by oldjacket on Nov 26, 2008 8:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“Before we start the tour, a word of caution: Beware the eyes of Al Davis.”

by rightcenterfielder on Nov 26, 2008 8:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Denker bus is now bound for San Diego. Those who were passengers on it are now angrily stranded at a gas station in Modesto, CA. Not much about baseball here .

by oldjacket on Nov 26, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

/decomposes

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 8:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that’s what happens before he devours you.

The Denker bus is now bound for San Diego. Those who were passengers on it are now angrily stranded at a gas station in Modesto, CA. Not much about baseball here .

by oldjacket on Nov 26, 2008 8:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he’s in the new Left 4 Dead game.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 26, 2008 8:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

someone needs to make a patch that turns every zombie into Al Davis

The Denker bus is now bound for San Diego. Those who were passengers on it are now angrily stranded at a gas station in Modesto, CA. Not much about baseball here .

by oldjacket on Nov 26, 2008 8:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No way they’d be able to get it past the ESRB.

There amass been plenty of articles written this spring about the stud shortstop Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum , as well as the fluid young outfielders and thirteen basemen Kevin Frandsen.
comics | art | Nattowear | McFAQ I & II

by Natto on Nov 26, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's not al davis... that's david lo pan

davidlopan

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Nov 26, 2008 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Giants Bullpen:

Chinese Hell of missing the plate

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?

by zenbitz on Nov 26, 2008 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Giants Starters:

Chinese Hell of No Run Support

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Nov 26, 2008 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Timing

I found it odd that Kinzer said he hadn’t talked to the Giants in two days, when the previous day the agent for Furcal had been quoted as saying he had talked to the Giants “within the past hour.”

Yesterday I thought Furcal was going to sign with the Giants. Now it’s looking much more like they do indeed have a deal with Renteria.

And I guess buying two years of respectability at short while still giving players such as Burriss, Frandsen, Velez, Noonan, Crawford and Adrianza two more years to develop at various levels might be a prudent move.

But is Renteria really worth $8.5 milion more per season than Burriss? Perhaps the Giants believe Emmanuel would benefit from more seasoning in the minors. Otherwise I can’t see the reasoning for signing Renteria (assuming that is what they have indeed done).

I guess the Giants must be thinking that another two seasons spent developing in the minors and as a second baseman or utility player in the majors would most benefit Burriss. And if Manny is truly ready a year from now, I would assume Renteria would be tradeable barring a bad 2009 season.

Still, if they have indeed signed Renteria, the Giants will be on the hook for over $60 million per season to Edgar, Barry Zito, Dave Roberts, Randy Winn and Aaron Rowand. For a non-contender, that’s a lot of dough to have baking in the oven for just five players — none of whom might arguably be placed in the top three players on the team. One might even describe all that dough as empty calories.

And even with Renteria, the Giants could well have the worst defensive infield in the league. Probably the worst offensive infield, as well. Ouch!

At least the Giants’ left side of the infield is so porous that they won’t have to worry about drainage. One has to find that silver lining where he can. Thank goodness silver doesn’t rust.

by sharksrog on Nov 26, 2008 11:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Adjustments

I see that the Chronicle reported today that Kinsler DID have talks yesterday with the Giants. Also, if the Giants sign Renteria, they will have committed over $50 million to five veterans, not over $60 million as I erroneously reported before. I believe that moves the situation up from awful to just really bad.

by sharksrog on Nov 26, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your 2009 SF Giants

Not awful, just really bad!

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Nov 26, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What's $10M between friends :-)

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Nov 26, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

As you “reported”?

Let’s go live to our Chief Giants Correspondent, Sharkrog. Rog, what are your sources telling you is the latest on the team’s efforts to sign a new shortstop? Wait…sorry Rog, I’m being told we have new footage a Barry Bonds’ hunting trip. We’ll go live instead to howtheyscored, who no doubt will defend Bonds as being singled out, unaware of irony that Bonds singled out a certain deer for death.

My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman

by Goofus on Nov 28, 2008 4:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Giants are the team that's made the 3/$39 million offer.

Kinzer has now said that he wants to narrow the field to only two remaining teams by Monday, yet the A’s haven’t even made an offer yet. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Giants have made the lone offer for 3/$39 million.

The problem Kinzer now faces is that he’s admitted that there are two other teams in play, yet according to him both of them have either salary or roster constraints to deal with before they can plug his client into a roster spot. Neither one of those teams is likely to address those problems over the weekend unless there are surprise trades about to happen. So those teams would have to jump in now to be considered without the certainty of having dealt with their constraints. And what team is willing to do that without knowing for sure that they’ll land Furcal, if Kinzer wants this narrowed down now?

Kinzer may have been too clever here and forced things too quickly, especially if it’s possible that he really only has one offer in hand right now.

I suspect that the Giants have already offered the 3/$39 million package in another one of Sabean’s “quick strike” efforts, and Kinzer is trying to use the A’s to get his client that fourth year that Sabean doesn’t want to give him. Again, no offer has yet been made by the A’s as of today, according to Kinzer, and he’s also talking about 2 “mystery” teams who haven’t yet made the moves for Furcal to land on their rosters. Yet he wants to narrow it to 2 teams by Monday. This explains why the Renteria 2/$18 million story suddenly popped up from nowhere earlier this week.

Matt Cain's drinking buddy

by Buck Henry on Nov 26, 2008 5:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I hope you’re right on all counts. Furcal for $39M over three would be a damn nice pickup.

by onlxn on Nov 26, 2008 11:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Like Furcal a lot. Would be great from the leadoff spot and would ignite plenty Giants rallys. However would only sign to an incentive based deal. Would even be willing to add the fourth year he requested and possibly even a fifth year team option based on production.

Have a base contract of $30M or so and then will incentives based on PAs. The more times he bats the healthier and productive he is so he gets paid handsomely. Would even pay him $13-14M a season as long as he meets his PAs, is healthy and productive.

by wilriv21 on Nov 26, 2008 6:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

so you’re basically saying that you don’t think Emmanuel Burriss will EVER be ready to be a major league shortstop?? I kind of like the Renteria deal if it happens, because it allows Manny to gradually become the regular shortstop, even enbabling him to go the minors if necessary. However, if you give a four or five year deal you are basically saying that Burriss will never make it in this organization. You could be right, but I hope the Giants’ think higher of Burriss than you do, and I sure hope they’re right if they do. I think Furcal is better at this point than Renteria, so my preference is Furcal for three years, followed by Renteria for two, but anything longer than that means they have no faith in any shortstop in their organization.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Nov 26, 2008 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My preference is a healthy, productive Rafael Furcal spearheading the Giants line-up for years to come. A Kevin Frandsen/Manny Burriss steel cage match for 2b allows SF the opportunity to determine if Frandsen and/or Burriss can be an everyday ML starter.

by wilriv21 on Nov 26, 2008 7:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the thing about Burriss: he’s not likely to develop new facets to his game. He’s fast, can walk a little and is absolutely power-free… we saw all of that in abundance last year. He could steal a few more bases, but really he’s not likely to get any better than he was last season. If anything, it’s more likely that he’d regress, as pitchers challenge him more.

When it comes to Burriss, what we see is probably what we get: a completely powerless shortstop with middling defense who needs to keep his OBP high to be playable. I’m not saying we need to do cartwheels to avoid the guy, but we shouldn’t strain to make room for him down the road, either. Any possible deal for another shortstop should be weighed strictly on the merits (ability, health, cost) of that shortstop, not on the merits of Burriss. He’s a fine placeholder, but no better, and there’s absolutely nobody behind him.

by onlxn on Nov 26, 2008 11:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not really disagreeing, just saying that a long term deal for Furcal basically means the end of Burriss, so if the Giants’ share your feelings they shouldn’t be afraid of giving Furcal the years that he wants. I don’t see Burriss as ever hitting well enough to be a starting second baseman in the majors, so I don’t see that as an option like Wil does. If you have a second baseman that hits like Burriss, it defeats the purpose of having a shortstop that can hit like Furcal. All you’ve done is move the position where the automatic out is. There’s some funny stuff happening here though. Furcal to the A’s sure looked like a done deal yesterday. He came from DR, even brought his wife, did the whole tour thing and then left without even getting an offer?? Then Kinzer talks about the Giants’ still being in it, and other teams who have to make moves, etc. so it looks like the talks with the A’s went poorly. If the Giants’ DID sign Renteria, Kinzer might have made a huge mistake here, especially if the Giants’ are indeed the team that gave him the initial 3 yrs 39 million dollar offer. If they didn’t sign Renteria though, you would think that they have moved pretty much to the top of the list.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Nov 27, 2008 5:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m fine with Burriss at second, and would love to see him and Frandsen competing or platooning.

Your average ML shortstop hits .272/.327/.399. Your average ML second baseman hits .276/.336/.413. That’s a difference 8-10 runs a season.

Burriss’s bat relative to his peers becomes less valuable if he moves to second; but of course his glove becomes more valuable. It’s quite possible that he would be so much better at second than at short as to more than make up for what he has lost at the plate.

by Evan on Nov 27, 2008 6:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Especially as Burriss major defensive weakness at SS is his arm, which really isnt quite major league. You can get away with that if you’re combining him with an exceptional 3B with good lateral movement, but I wouldn’t want a noodle arm SS playing next to Sandoval at 3B for fear that you’re going to start seeing some very abnormally high BABIP out of our pitchers. (I have the same objection to Renteria, actually).

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Nov 27, 2008 8:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never heard much of anyone knocking Manny’s arm. I’m not a huge Burriss booster but I can’t ever remember seeing his arm and thinking it wouldn’t hang at SS, he’s no David Eckstein in that regard. I was wondering why you thought so Roger? The only knocks I’ve seen on his D was that he needed to be more “consistent”.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 27, 2008 8:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really? I’d say I’ve seen mention that his arm grades slightly below average often enough to think of it as a scouting consensus — and less authoritatively, that was my impression of him as well in the few times I’ve seen him play in person. He has very good range, nice hands, good instincts, iffy arm. I think that’s why there’s some inclination to move him to 2B on the Giants’ part, despite the plethora of 2B possibilities and the dearth of SS options.

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Nov 27, 2008 9:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Manny's arm

I think Emmanuel Burriss’ arm is strong enough for the shortstop position but is erratic in its accuracy. If I were the Giants, I would work on the footwork he uses as he goes into his throws. Manny seems to have great feet, so I believe that with the proper changes his footwork could actually become a plus, perhaps leading to a plus arm.

by sharksrog on Nov 27, 2008 9:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, really. Hook me up with some links on his arm if you’ve got ‘em. I’m always up for learning something new.

/deer head
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Nov 27, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, the only thing I can find is the blurb on him from the last couple BA Prospect Handbooks which I have hard copies of. And they’re just saying that he grades out “a tick” below average, but still praise his playmaking abilities. Other than that you’re right I’m not seeing a lot of links critiquing Manny’s arm strength. It was my impression that it’s weak from the hole, though.

Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!

by Roger on Nov 28, 2008 8:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What I could find

In The Baseball Prospect Book 2008, John Sickels says of Emmanuel Burriss, “His arm is weak, but he has a lightning-quick release and excellent range.”

Baseball Prospectus 2008 says, “His speed and glove will get him to the majors; they just won’t get him playing time once there.” Nothing specific about his arm.

Baseball America’s Prospect Handbook 2008 says “He has good range and instincts at shortstop,” but goes on to add “After making 30 errors in 123 games in 2007, he needs to be more consistent with his defense.” Again, nothing specific about his arm, although the comment might be construed to tie in with my comment that it is the accuracy, rather than the strength, of Manny’s arm that is in question.

The 2008 Minor League Baseball Analyst says “May not have arm strength for SS, but has good range and soft hands.”

Those scouting reports clearly indicate overall that Manny lacks at least some arm strength. My own scouting report after watching him last season was that his arm strength was at least average — and I would have put him at a little above average.

Tom Tangotiger does a community poll regarding a player’s defense. The players are to be rated not by position, but by how they compare with all other players in each category.

Emmanuel scored a 58 for release, a 59 for strength and a 61 for accuracy. I don’t remember the precise numbers I gave Manny myself, but I suspect the release and arm strength numbers were well above the accuracy number, with the release receiving the highest score.

Manny’s 59 for arm strength would indeed be a little above average (which in theory at least would be 50). His 59 score actually was the fourth highest on the Giants and one of only five scores above 50. (Pitchers weren’t included.)

The three scores ahead of Manny were 66 for Bengie Molina, 63 for Brian Bocock and 60 for Fred Lewis. I should note that Pablo Sandoval, who may have the strongest non-pitcher arm on the team, wasn’t included in the survey.

The team’s lowest score for arm strength was 12 by Dave Roberts.

Incidentally, Emmanuel’s other scores were 61 for instincts, 74 for first step, 84 for speed, and 53 for hands. Manny has been rated on 42 ballots and has an agreement level among the balloters of 69, which appear to be a bit above average.

I don’t know how much longer the ratings will go on, but as of this week they were still open, should anyone want to participate.

The bottom line seems to be that there are varied opinions of Emmanuel’s arm strength. But his evaluations seem to be higher at the major league level than they were in the minors, perhaps because the major league voting was likely done almost exclusively by those who had seen him play. The minor league evaluations were likely done more on hearsay.

Whatever your opinion of Emmanuel’s arm strength, you will likely find someone who agrees with you.

by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2008 1:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One correction

The agreement level regarding Emmanuel’s defense was actually .75, which was tied for second-highest among all the Giants, with Randy Winn’s .78 being the highest level of agreement.

By the way, I thought Manny was already above-average defensively at second base, although I thought he was below-average at short. That could have to do with arm strength, although I thought of two factors myself.

First, I don’t think Manny’s arm is all that accurate. Obviously to the extent the problem exists, it would be magnified on the longer throws from shorstop.

Second, Manny had the ability cover a lot of ground and make diving stops. The shorter throw from second allows him to complete the out more often on such plays as when he dives to get a ball at shortstop.

I guess because of his quick release and apparent courage for making the turn, Manny didn’t seem to have a problem with the double play pivot as a second baseman.

It’s too bad Manny probably doesn’t have the bat to play second, since I think it would be a LOT of fun to watch him play the position defensively over his career.

If Manny turns out to be more of a utlityman than a starter, perhaps he’ll see a lot of time as a defensive replacement — particularly at the keystone.

Although I thought Manny improved a lot with the bat last season, particularly from the left side — which had been his biggest weakness, I would say his best role as of the moment would be as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. Hopefully that will change in the future.

by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2008 1:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A's at top of list?

It would appear that if the A’s aren’t at the top of Rafael Furcal’s list, they certainly are trying to be so. On the other hand, if the A’s are serious about signing Furcal, that likely means he will be a very nice signing if he can remain healthy.

For those who would like to see the Giants sign Rafael, I guess every day he doesn’t sign with the A’s is a good sign that might lead to a good signing.

by sharksrog on Nov 27, 2008 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

unless they’ve already signed Renteria, and the agent just continues to toss out the Giants’ name to entice other teams into thinking more teams want Furcal than is actually the case. If the Giants’ did sign Renteria, and Furcal winds up somewhere else with a two or three year deal, it would mean that Sabean acted too fast and blew the chance to get the superior player. However, even if this is the case, Renteria for two years is a nice consolation prize.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Nov 27, 2008 12:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I still think the Giants are the team

that’s already offered the 3/$39 million package, and I suspect that Kinzer is trying to get the A’s to offer 4 years.

I’m a little surprised that apparently no one else has even made an offer as of yet (the Dodgers were only willing to overpay for 2 years at $13-15 million per). It seems that other teams may jump in after the arbitration decisions are made Monday, but Kinzer wants to shut this down to 2 teams by early next week.

I fully understand why Sabean would be hesitant to offer Furcal 4 years with his injury history, yet I’ve seen a story that indicated the A’s have reviewed his medical file and feel he’s recovered 100%.

The Giants’ other offseason decisions all revolve around whether or not they snag Furcal. I wonder where we’d be by now if the Giants had gone ahead yesterday and went with the fourth year?

Matt Cain's drinking buddy

by Buck Henry on Nov 27, 2008 1:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually now think that Renteria is signed by the Giants’ and Kinzer is just blowing smoke. I think he’s getting desperate and flew out to Oakland hoping to rush them into a deal before the Giants’ made their announcement. He loses all his leverage if the Giants’ are out of the picture. His statements lately haven’t made any sense. No, he hasn’t talked to the Giants lately, yes he has. The comment that was the lamest was when he said four teams are in it, except that two teams have to make trades first. He then said it would be down to two teams by Monday. Does he expect the two “mystery teams” to make these trades by Monday, or is he referring to just the Giants’ and A’s?? This is why I think the Giants’ are now out of the picture and he is trying to make the A’s negotiate against themselves. I hope I’m wrong because I prefer Furcal, but this is what I think.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Nov 27, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you are wrong, because if the Giants can luck their

way into only a three-year deal for Furcal, that would be optimal.

Failing that, I would accept Renteria for 2/$18 million and then focus on seeing what it would take to land Beltre for 3B, letting Burriss/Frandsen handle 2B and Pablo/Ishi handle 1B. Adding Beltre and Renteria to the batting order and a full year of Pablo would be a large upgrade.

Matt Cain's drinking buddy

by Buck Henry on Nov 27, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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