Edgar Renteria or Orlando Cabrera? On my San Francisco Giants?
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 18, 2008 11:33 AM PST
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PrintThe horrifying, soul-masticating postscript to yesterday’s post about Rafael Furcal:
This closely parallels the situation with Furcal, 31, who's believed to have received an offer from the Giants but has attracted inquiries from up to 10 teams. And an industry source said that San Francisco also has explored the possibility of signing Orlando Cabrera, another veteran shortstop.
Hey, you know who else is a career .290 hitter? Carney Lansford. He’s already in the organization, so the Giants wouldn’t even need to give up a draft pick. Plus, Lansford would have better range than Renteria at short, so the Giants would come out ahead.
What’s that, you say? Lansford is old, and he isn’t the same athlete that compiled the .290 career average? That’s kind of the point. Renteria will be 33, and his defense has already declined. Giving him anything more than a two-year deal is madness.
If Renteria is a bad idea, then Cabrera would be…uh…a much, much worse idea. Just awful. If your cousin "Stoobie" comes to you asking for a cash investment in his newest get-rich-quick scheme – a new, super-powered household cleaner he calls Bleachmonia – it would be a better idea for you to buy $10,000 worth of shares than it would be for the Giants to sign Orlando Cabrera. At least Renteria is only one season removed from a really good season. Cabrera is 34, coming off a season where he posted a .334 on-base percentage, and surely looking for a long-term deal. He would cost the Giants tens of millions of dollars, a draft pick, and their mortal soul.
This is it. The real trial of fire for Brian Sabean. No more, "Oh, but he was forced to build veteran teams around one superstar, so you can’t judge him on his past actions." No more, "Oh, but he was handcuffed by a meddling owner, and now he doesn’t have to deal with that." Sabean has made a concerted effort to build through the farm system, and it’s been an encouraging thing to watch. The Giants haven’t gone cheap with their first-round picks; the team is more active in the international amateur market than they ever have been. Draft pick compensation was an admitted concern for Sabean as he pored over the free-agent market for relievers. The unanimously heralded Jeremy Affeldt signing was the product of Sabean’s farm friendly plan. With a little patience, we just might see what a true Sabean roster will look like in a couple of seasons.
But I’m terrified that the true Sabean roster isn’t a mystery, that it’s something we’ve seen over and over and over. Old Sabean would say:
If New Sabean exists, he would say:
Add in the fact that we’d have to give up a second-round pick, which is a chance at one of the 50-best draft-eligible amateurs in the country, and it’s an easy decision just to see what Emmanuel Burriss can do in 2009. If we need to revisit the free-agent market next year, we’ll be prepared to do so.
In order to maintain my sanity, I’m still going to believe in New Sabean. I’ll leave out a plate of cookies and a glass of milk, and I’m going to pull the covers up to my eyes and wait for him. Surely, a man who pursued Gary Matthews, Jr. and Juan Pierre has to have some sort of awareness by now – ten years after he started – of the folly of free-agent mediocrity. He isn’t interested in Orlando Cabrera or, to a less horrifying extent, Edgar Renteria. This is all just bobbing and weaving in related Rafael Furcal negotiations.
Right?
Right?
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If we sign every SS and CF
everyone else will have to play with only 7 guys!
Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!
Genius
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Nov 18, 2008 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
i like how the emphasis has shifted from
middle of the order bat
to
middle infielder
and by “like” i mean “am really confused and pissed off by”
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Nov 18, 2008 11:41 AM PST reply actions
it makes sense
Replacing the abysmal production we got from shortstop with an above-average bat would be like acquiring an impact bat for one of the less horrible positions, but a lot lot cheaper.
I can't explain it
But seeing “cousin stoobie” as a tag is totally breaking me up.
Anagram of "Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum" = TENSE, CLIMACTIC, TRIUMPHING
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Nov 18, 2008 11:42 AM PST reply actions
I'm sure..
Grant uses the strangest tags of any SBNation site.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Yes, this is about negotiations with Furcal. SF probably is the team that made the offer to Furcal last week in an attempt for a quick strike. It worked with Affeldt. Not so much with Furcal.
Sabean needs to be patient and wait until after December 1 date Last date for former club to offer salary arbitration to ranked free agents in order to be eligible for compensation.
Yes! Yes!! Yes!!!
MR. Nuke Them you need to make sure there is enough in the Alcohol, Blow, Party Girls Executive Entertainment Budget for 12 more day.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Hopefully he’s not traveling to Orlando.
Anagram of "Giants pitcher Tim Lincecum" = TENSE, CLIMACTIC, TRIUMPHING
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Nov 18, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
so the spying mic picked up
“What do I want to do? Rent a Kia. In Orlando, cabs are rare”
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Isn't this exciting?
Usually, after ten years fans know their GM. But us? No, we are still guessing. That Sabean is so mysterious. Is he the same guy that gave away a draft pick for Michael Tucker? Who has veteran lust? Who signed Zito?
Or is this a new Sabean?
I had given up on him but then he starts to act all reasonable and stuff.
I am so confused.
Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
Is he the same guy that gave away a draft pick for Michael Tucker? Who has veteran lust? Who signed Zito?
He’s the same guy who signed Omar Vizquel last year.
That turned out to be pretty reasonable, though
It was the whole no-backup-to-Vizquel thing that was dumb.
Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.
"Or is this a new Sabean?"
I disagree that we’re still guessing. Haven’t we been asking the same question for 9 years?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
I didn't realize how much I liked Furcal...
until I pondered Renteria or Carbrera as a Giant.
They say some players get out of bed hitting; Pablo Sandoval doesn't wait that long
Had this same reaction...
Very well said. The idea of Furcal makes me assume the famous “thinker” pose. Renteria/Cabrera (especially Cabrera) makes me feel like I’m being forced to assume another position.
In all seriousness… Dave Roberts, but for the infield. I mean Renteria/Cabrera type ideas all “taste like chicken”. Like eating for chicken for, what, 3 years? Right, back to Dave Roberts.
I could handle Renteria on a short, cheap deal. I still think he is a productive player. The worst part is that he is a Type A.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
+1
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Nov 18, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, if he wasn’t a Type A I would prefer him probably. Furcal is a better defender than Renteria and I think that matters for something.
Above all, I don’t want O-Cab, no way.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
Agreed on the no O-Cab.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
What’s the difference, really? Renteria has a couple of fluky .330 seasons on his résumé, but Cabrera is more consistent. There’s maybe five or six runs of difference between them with the bat. Cabrera stays healthier and is probably a better fielder.
Check out their numbers on StatCorner:
Except for last year, Renteria has been ~10-30 runs better than Cabrera with the bat each year. Renteria was also incredibly unlucky last year: 22.4% LD and a .289 BABIP. It would seem to be the perfect time to buy low on Renteria. I’m not saying we should, but I would be fine if the deal is reasonable.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
In 2008 PMR had them at a difference of about 20 runs, in Cabrera’s favor. Chris Dial had it at about 7.5 runs in favor of Cabrera.
RZR 2008 – Cabrera a bit better.
RZR 2007 – Renteria a bit better.
RZR 2006 – Renteria way better.
All in all, I’d guess that Cabrera is 5 to 15 runs better with the glove than Renteria. Given that Renteria pretty much always has outhit him by at least that much, he seems better to me. I don’t know how their contracts will play out, but if the perception is that Renteria has fallen off, he might come cheaper as well.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Help me be strong.
My mind says, “No! No!! No!! " on Cabrera my some how I keep thinking ,” Maybe… "
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 19, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
yes
The length of the contracts Sabean ponders is the MOST scary thing here. The FUNNY thing here is that I read an article at one time that said Renteria and Cabrera hate each other. We could make them cage fight to see who gets to have the honor of signing Sabean’s 5 year contract offer.
The difference?
Last 3 years:
Furcal: 333 Games, .293/.361/.420
Renteria: 411 Games, .297/.356/.429
I’ll spot you the two years on Furcal, but the bad back evens it out.
None of the above!
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
Yeah, but defense
Furcal is good. Renteria has the range of Ryan Klesko.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.
Ryan Klesko...
At first? In left? Of his rifle out of his deer stand?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
I’m trying, but I just can’t get too worked up about this threat. Decent shortstops are hard to find. Renteria and Cabrera aren’t inspiring players, but they’ll fill a role for a few years without breaking the bank.
Manny Burriss is a thin reed on which to hang one’s “play the kids” hopes. And if his 2008 was for real, well, the team still needs a second baseman as well.
You might've changed my mind...
You’re smart to post further down in the comments. My initial outrage has cooled. You’re talking sense. I think the idea of a 3rd year on the contract bugs the snot out of me. I also think Cabrera, in particular, bugs me. But your point is well made. I guess my concern is Sabean’s vision for his role past next season. Will they sit a veteran who might be making borderline starter money?
This type of signing wouldn’t change that.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
The returned null string answer probably broke his simulator.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 19, 2008 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
old shortstops
might as well bring back omar if we’re talking about old shortstops.
golf clap
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
not to be confused with the reverse cowgirl
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Nov 20, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
I have such a mad girl crush on her. Just told my boss to “talk me down”… not world affairs though just an A/R credit I disputed. Wow. My life is really kinda dull huh?
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. Rogers Hornsby
I am so disapointed that she is on vacation today!
Some other erudite, attractive woman on the show…..
just ain’t the same!
Charlie Hayes ate my homework
by glenallen hill's waterpipe on Nov 18, 2008 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
Content
I could be perfectly content with the Giants’ not signing a middle infielder. If they were to do so, I would root for Rafael Furcal — but only if the Giants’ doctors were very sure he was healthy and likely to stay that way.
I would be going for the future, not the present. But at the very least I would want to sign players capable of contributing at least three years down the line — preferably longer.
Ronny Cedeno at Short
I would think that the Giants would make a good match for the Cubs’ current left handed outfielder need. Unfortunately their needs likely wouldn’t include Dave Roberts.
I'll have a cup of this Kool aid please!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
Too soon
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN... UNLESS HE KEEPS DRAFTING WELL. .. AND SIGNS UNDERRATED PLAYERS LIKE AFFELDT OR PHELPS. .. OR ALRIGHT WHO'S PLAYING WITH THE ALIEN MIND-SWITCHING RAY?
Hair of the dog man.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 19, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
Is anyone allowed to do the anagrams...?
Edgar Renteria and Orlando Cabrera =
“A Candelabra? Arranged Terror! No! Die!!!”
by The Double Deuce on Nov 18, 2008 4:13 PM PST reply actions
Not you.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Completely off topic...
You are voting between two candidates for the MVP. Both candidates played a full season for a playoff team and posted the following lines:
Player A – .326/.376/.493/.869 with 17 HR and 83 RBI’s
Player B – .312/.390/.569/.958 with 29 HR and 115 RBI’s
Who gets your vote?
What positions do they play and how good are they on defense?
My current Interwebs obsession is pretty awesome. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
So if you haven’t figured out yet, it’s Pedroia and Youklis. I can admit I cherry picked stats that most favor Youklis. But Youk’s raw hitting production was just so far above Pedroia’s, I’m not sure where to find Plus/Minus defensive stats but I believe Youk contributed a lot more additional runs of offense than Pedroia did for defense.
I know what the pro-Pedroia argument is – there are more good hitting corner infielders than 2b. Stats like VORP take this into account, and favor Pedroia. And if I were a GM, this would be a great stat for judging who to sign, and for how much. But Youklis was simply a much bigger offensive force this year. Sure, if the players were even, give it to the second baseman. But they weren’t.
Two more points: I concede the AL race was a jumbled mess, and there were a number of candidates with a legitimate case, and no one was a clear choice like Pujols in the NL. Second, if you want to start giving credit to someone because others at his position can’t hit, you might as well start factoring in how much money a player makes to the debate – it’s the same concept.
The real reason it bothers me is because Pedroia won because he’s 5’9 180 pounds. That’s just stupid.
by Missing Barry on Nov 18, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions
BP’s WARP is position adjusted and had Pedroia at 9.8 wins above replacement. The next closest was Mauer at 9.6. Looks like the writers got it right.
FWIW Youk was at 8.4 and Hamilton was at 8.1. Pujols was worth 13 over.
Like I said, it’s position adjusted. The underlying replacement stats for the two positions are very different and thus largely affect the final statistic.
by Missing Barry on Nov 18, 2008 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
Ehhh, not really. BP’s defensive stats aren’t any good, hence WARP isn’t that good.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Sounds like
Sounds like a warped point of view to me.
Youk’s raw hitting production was just so far above Pedroia’s
Not nearly as far as Pedroia’s raw fielding production was above Youkilis’s. Youk made something like 200 plays over the course of the season; Pedroia made 374.
Well I’m getting a bit frustrated at baseball stats pages right now – I tried to use baseball-reference to come up with a comparison of runs created for the two to compare to runs saved defensive stats but BR only lets me see the league leader in runs created (Sizemore).
So if anyone else wants to find these stats and give us a runs created vs. runs saved comparison of the two, that’d be great…
by Missing Barry on Nov 18, 2008 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Nice. There’s not a legend for the first one so I ignored it and just looked at the second one. Pedroia beats Youk by 1 taking out the position factor, so I’d call them even. Sizemore destroys them both though…
My opinion is Pedroia won because he’s small. There seems to be a lot more proof for this than against it. Back to debating things that matter though…Giants issues.
by Missing Barry on Nov 18, 2008 7:15 PM PST up reply actions
Explanation for the first link.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Dude was bananas defensively this year.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
so..
Is BANANAS now a STAT result?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Sort of, but it’s not too useful. Here’s the leaderboard:
- Chase Utley
- Marco Scutaro
- Albert Pujols
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
That would have been the perfect occasion for a rickroll
by FairweatherFan on Nov 19, 2008 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
No way
You know that Rick Rolls are no longer culturally acceptable when George Will, of all people, is mentioning them: http://online.wsjournal.com/opinion/111708/324333.html
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 19, 2008 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
LONG LIVE THE RUSHROLL!
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
That’s a good one.
My current Interwebs obsession is pretty awesome. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
Player C
He hit .268/.375/.502 with 33 HR and 38 SB while playing a mean CF. I believe he also made at least 3 girls faint.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Yeah, but Joe Mauer inspired this.
(no, it’s not me)
That kid needs to say “Does God have feet?”
The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and the chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby.
meh
I just think it’s stoopid that the top 4 were on 2 teams
Kyle Nicholson: the fyootch
by stealth snail on Nov 18, 2008 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
Furcal, OCab, Rent
All seem like they could be good short term but not for a contract longer than two years. Unfortunately the best options in 2009 will be Khalil Greene and a fading Miggy Tejada. I’m not a big believer in Burriss, at least not yet. I think he needs a few more years.
Escobar
Would Sanchez for Yunel Escobar be at all reasonable for us or the Braves? I have no idea what Escobar’s trade value may be and I’m not that familiar with him, but if Atlanta really wants to add pitching and possibly bring Furcal back wouldnt it make some sense?
Yea, after a quick look at his minor league stats and reading a couple scouting reports I realized that was probably a little far fetched. Maybe Sanchez+Winn?
still probably no
Escobar’s has ~2 years of service time so far and has put up a little less than two good seasons of play, so he’s going to be underpaid for a while. Plus who would play SS for the Braves? Brett Lillibridge i guess, but the drop off would be significant
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
i meant, no, as in the Braves wouldn’t do it. probably. though i’d be fine with it
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
I could actually see the Braves going for that one. They’d at least think about it. There’s no way Sabean would do it, though. If the Braves didn’t have to pay FA money for an OF or SP, they’d sign Orlando Cabrera or something.
by Grant Brisbee on Nov 18, 2008 11:50 PM PST up reply actions
I just don't get it.
I really don’t think we need a middle infielder so badly. Play the kids. See what we’ve got. If at the end of the 2009 season, we still don’t think Burriss, Velez, or Frandsen will work out, we can sign someone then. Why waste FA contract money on ANYTHING other than a big bat? Me no likey.
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