Giants Positional Depth Chart
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 8:14 AM PST
131 comments
| Position | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |
| C | Molina | Sandoval | Holm | Posey | Witter |
| 1B | Ishikawa | Sandoval | Phelps |
Bowker | Villalona |
| 2B | Frandsen | Burriss | Velez | Downs | Noonan |
| SS | Burriss | Ochoa | Bocock | Crawford | Adrianza |
| 3B | Sandoval | Rohlinger | Gillaspie | … | … |
| LF | Lewis | Roberts | Bowker | Horwitz | Ortmeier |
| CF | Rowand | Winn | Lewis | Timpner | Richardson |
| RF | Winn | Schierholtz | Bowker | Copeland | … |
| SP1 | Lincecum | Misch | Hammond | Martinez | Pucetas |
| SP2 | Cain | Misch | Hammond | Martinez | Pucetas |
| SP3 | Zito | Misch | Hammond | Martinez |
Pucetas |
| SP4 | Sanchez | Misch | Hammond | Martinez |
Pucetas |
| SP5 | Lowry | Misch | Hammond | Martinez | Pucetas |
| LHP | Taschner | Espineli | … | … | … |
| LHP | Hinshaw | Threets | … | … | … |
| LHP | Affeldt | … | … | … | ... |
| RHP | Romo | Cowart | ... | ... | ... |
| RHP | Wilson | Hedrick | … | … | … |
| RHP | Sadler | Matos | … | … | … |
| RHP | Yabu | Miller | … | … | ... |
| RHP | Valdez | Pichardo | … | … | … |
I've been working on a Giants depth chart by position recently for my site and I wanted to run what I had across you guys to get some comments. Players are ranked by position. Hence, a player with a #1 is atop the depth chart for his position, a player with a #5 is much further away from being called on to play that position. This isn't a chart based on talent -- Hammond rates higher than Bumgarner -- but closeness to filling a spot.
Did I miss anyone? I'm not concerned with relievers overly because they are so hard to predict by nature. Players that are bolded are on the 40-man.
Thanks for the help, some of the rankings gave me a hard time. I originally had Posey at #4 but moved him up to #3.
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One more thing: English and Threets are minor league FA’s, but I included them anyways. If they leave the team, I’ll make the required edits.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 8:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the comments that Adrianza should be #5 on the SS list. Additionally, if we are counting minor league free agents, shouldn’t Scott McClain be on the 3B depth chart?
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, i’ve noticed there are typos for Martinez on the SP3 and SP4 lines. Very minor stuff. It looks Great!
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 8:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, just fixed those.
What’s everyone’s opinion on Adrianza? I can’t see including him on the depth chart because he’s never been out of Rookie ball — despite the quick trip to AAA — and I haven’t heard anything on him besides a couple of BA blurbs. He might have some upside but he could be the furthest away of all of our SS prospects.
I’d rather include Sharlon Schoop before him and I’m not going to be doing that.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 5:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My main argument would be that my gut feeling is that he will assert himself as a SS prospect over the next year. However, this list is very fluid and if Adrianza produces, he can always be added later. Besides, if a SS were to be signed as a FA, Adrianza would be bumped off anyway.
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 17, 2008 6:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Scouts are crazy about him. I think he’s going to appear on some top ten Giants prospects lists this winter.
The fact that they called him up to AAA when Fresno needed a spare glove suggests to me that he should indeed be on the major-league depth chart.
by Evan on Nov 17, 2008 6:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Evan. Sure, if we sign a FA then you can bump him off, but either Adrianza or Schoop deserves to be among the top five.
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
by Lyle on Nov 17, 2008 7:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Scouts are crazy about him. I think he’s going to appear on some top ten Giants prospects lists this winter.
If he doesn’t appear on our community top ten list, it just doesn’t matter.
Yes we did!
by Goofus on Nov 17, 2008 8:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t see him getting in the top ten over Crawford, Pucetas, Ishikawa, Kieschnick. Maybe he’d slide in above Fairley
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 17, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t see him being under Pucetas or Ishikawa, and it’s easy to imagine him being above Crawford as well.
To me the depth chart question is different from sheer prospect status, as Xanthan says, it’s an issue of who would be the next in line to be called up. But I agree with Evan that the organization calling on him to fill in at AAA does suggest that he’s on that list above SS who are above him in the chain of command.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Nov 17, 2008 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But I agree with Evan that the organization calling on him to fill in at AAA does suggest that he’s on that list above SS who are above him in the chain of command.
Does it though? How much does 6 AB’s in AAA tell you? And this is the same organization that threw Bocock into the fire. Does that make Bocock a better prospect at shortstop?
Ehire Adrianza is interesting, but he’s yet to play a full season outside of rookieball. I think Schoop has to go before him at #5.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Out on a limb
I’ll go on the record to say Brian Bocock will never hit. Not today. Not tomorrow. Never. He should take this winter to learn pitching mechanics.
by wilriv21 on Nov 17, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the reason he went to AAA is partially because he was close in proximity to the team. From the BA chat:
The reason he played in AAA was because the Fresno team was short an infielder (I think it was when Ivan Ochoa got called up); since they were already in Arizona, they brought in Adrianza to fill the void until a more experienced infielder could get there.
He’s a very smooth fielder but the depth chart isn’t about prospect status but rather who’s “next in line”.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How did you go from
How much does 6 AB’s in AAA tell you? And this is the same organization that threw Bocock into the fire. Does that make Bocock a better prospect at shortstop?
To
He’s a very smooth fielder but the depth chart isn’t about prospect status but rather who’s "next in line".
In just six minuets? :)
If this is about talent, then his call up isn’t important. But if it’s about who’s "next in line" then it is important, and the Bocock call up only hurts your argument.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Nov 17, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that I’m not dogging Adrianza because I do like certain things about him. But I can’t see him being #5th in line and for those that are weighting his 6 AB’s in AAA so much, Bocock was a counter example.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 6 ab’s don’t matter; it’s the fact that they called him up to AAA at all.
By calling up Bocock, the Giants showed that (a) they prize defense over offense in a shortstop, and (b) in an emergency, they don’t care at all about the organizational ladder.
Adrianza-to-Fresno is the same move, just a level lower. Geographical proximity may have been the key factor, but even so, most organizations wouldn’t have done that.
by Evan on Nov 17, 2008 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright, you Adrianza supporters have won me over….for now.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually..
Bocock to SF = skipping 2 levels (AA/AAA)
Adrianza to Fresno = skipping 4 levels (A-/A/A+/AA)
Even if you want to say that’s all A ball, players at least make 2 stops in those 3 levels usually. So he skipped at least an extra year than Bocock did. Note too though, Adranza did also play a game for A-, probably in the same fashion that the team was short IF. I’m not sure though.
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by WalrusMan on Nov 17, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Adrianza to Fresno has nothing to do with his skill-set (which scouts do speak highly of) and everything to do with the fact that they could put him in a cab to get him to Tucson. The only reason he was there was because he was the best SS option in Rookie ball at the time.
by MILB Watcher on Nov 17, 2008 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
good list
looks like you took time to do a good job but, the pitchers kinda baffle me. Even though Joey Martinez is very close to the majors wouldn’t he be around say numero five because even if lincecum went down Cain would fill the spot and so on.
by caincecum on Nov 16, 2008 8:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m not trying to say that Martinez is a “#1 Stater” in terms of stuff or talent, but that he and Hammond are the next closest guys we have for starting pitching. Of course if Lincecum went down and they called up Martinez, he would probably start in the back of the rotation while they moved Cain up.
Anyone have any ideas how I could do this better? Maybe move Martinez down the SP3-5 spots?
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I moved him down to clarify any confusion.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome job, this is very cool. For the starters, what if you listed the first four after Lincecum, then the next four after Cain, etc., in the order they would likely be called upon?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Nov 16, 2008 9:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good idea, thanks Marcello. I’ll make the changes.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, wouldn’t it be the same 4 pitchers for each starter?
Hammond, Martinez, Pucetas, Tanner/Alderson/etc.. would probably be the order, correct? That probably bumps off players like Bumgarner, Sosa, and Barnes.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 9:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you could just put them under Cain, but I see what you’re saying. It will still be potentially confusing. Maybe you could make some extra rows at the bottom, just generic SP?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Nov 16, 2008 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say..
Since your first 5 starters in the majors are listed vertically, list them as they’d get called up vertically as well.
I dunno, a depth chart is hard to do sometimes for these types of things. For positional it’s easier, but especially for pitchers it’s tough.
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s how it ought to be — the same 4 starters for each pitcher. If an opening develops in the starting rotation, it doesn’t matter whether it’s Lincecum or Zito that needs to be replaced; they’re still going to select the callup from the same small group.
I’d slot Lowry as lolsp5 and Misch as the top replacement.
by Evan on Nov 16, 2008 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like lolsp haha.
OK, the grouping of four…what’s the concensus on that?
Hammond, Martinez would be the top two…who would be the others?
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Misch would be #1. After that, I’d probably say Hammond, Pereira, Martinez. This being the Giants, though, you never know; they might well jump Pucetas ahead of all those guys.
by Evan on Nov 16, 2008 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, trying to predict what the Giants will and won’t do is hard.
For our grouping of replacement starters I went: Misch,Hammond, Martinez and Pucetas.
I really don’t like Pereira but the Giants could call him up, I dunno. I stuck Pucetas in the end as a wild card.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Xantahan why not just make a row that is labeled "Starting Pitchers 6-8" or some such?
Then list the candidates from left to right as nearest to MLB ready for the arms with projected ceilings for 3-5? Then use the depth on the 1 &2 slots to show guys in the system that have to evident potential to be special?
I guess the depth on the 3 slot cold be for guys that look like that are near to ready and will probably be really solid but not likely to be rotation leaders on a good team.. Though in this age of diminished pitching depth not sure how useful that last idea is.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 17, 2008 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Even though Sabean is undecided about Sandoval at 1B or 3B, I still think he gets the second most starts at C in ’09.
by Lars The Wanderer on Nov 16, 2008 8:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I hope so, Molina is really very old for a catcher and is past the age when they usually collapse. He might do well from getting more time of this year.
Though, when we signed Molina I had thought he’d be toast by year 2 and he proved me quite wrong.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think you have to list Sandoval at all three positions.
by Evan on Nov 16, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you should allow multiple positions. Winn and Lewis are our backup CFs, really.
by oldjacket on Nov 16, 2008 8:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
OK, I just updated the chart allowing for multiple positions. Sandoval is now the #2 at C and 1B. Winn moves to #2 for CF and Lewis moves to #3 for CF.
Jackson Williams got bumped off the chart as did Mike McBryde for CF.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Minor League Player I’m most hoping for a breakout year from: Matt Downs
by oldjacket on Nov 16, 2008 9:39 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
NVSFG and I whole-heartedly agree!
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
by Lyle on Nov 16, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Xanthan, great job.
Several things:
1. Given his draft commitment and college rep, doesn’t Crawford merit being the #3 SS?
2. I’d actually put Lowry in the #5 starter slot for now, with Joe Martinez and Pucetas right behind him there if Noah doesn’t make it back from injury, given the comments by Sabean about letting several minor league arms make a claim for that slot in ST.
Matt Cain's drinking buddy
by Buck Henry on Nov 16, 2008 9:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
1. Isn’t Crawford way too far from the majors to be #3? I think I could bump of Culberson (who’s had a tough go since he joined the Giants) and stick Crawford at #5? Any thoughts?
2. Yeah, I stuck Misch in the #5 because he made the most starts in ‘08 of players left on the Giants 40-man. I’m really leery of Lowry, maybe I should see if I can fit him in on the depth chart somewhere. I’m still trying to decide how to work in the starting pitching.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Given their draft commitment to him and his college polishing,
I think Crawford is a lot closer to the big team than Culberson, but I’ll defer to those of you who have watched Culberson. My understanding is that Crawford will start at High-A and could be at AA by the end of this year. Some of you may have more current information.
Matt Cain's drinking buddy
by Buck Henry on Nov 16, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure where the Giants are looking to start Crawford but he’s probably better than Culberson right now just because Culberson has been so terrible, so I think I’ll bump him off and add Crawford at #5.
Crawford has some things to overcome, he was hurt and his college record never really matched up with his tools. I think #5 is a good place to stick him, but as always, I’m open for debate.
Also, I just added Lowry behind Misch for the SP5. A lot of this is speculation and if Lowry shows up to camp and is throwing well, he can always move up.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Shortstop
Xanthan, how about throwing a bone to Ehire Adrianza or Sharlon Schoop for your #5 SS?
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
by Lyle on Nov 16, 2008 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why
have a blank for 3rd string SS? Then followed by Bocock. I mean, if Ochoa and Burriss go down, then we have Bocock (until someone else is signed).
Also, I think you should just rank the SPs 1-15 or whatever.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Nov 16, 2008 10:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
have a blank for 3rd string SS? Then followed by Bocock. I mean, if Ochoa and Burriss go down, then we have Bocock (until someone else is signed).
My thinking was that the Giants really don’t have anyone behind Ochoa in their system to play short. I guess they could call up Bocock again but I would think they’d be more likely to go out and pick up some replacement level guy. Should I move Bocock up? Or does the blank work?
Doing a SP1-15 might work, it would be easier to rank them at least.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw the Bocock placement as a joke more than anything. If Burriss went down for a month and Ochoa suffered a season ending injury, bocock would start for a month. That is why he would be 3 on the depth chart
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, moved Bocock and Crawford up.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And a lot of this explains why Edgar Renteria's agent
thinks his client and the Giants match up really well (ugh!). Apparently the Giants are willing to go at least as high as 3/$33 million for Furcal and almost that much (3/$30 million) for Orlando Hudson on a separate track, and when richer teams blow past those numbers and the Giants fall by the wayside, Renteria’s agent will be waiting for us to pay too much for his client.
Thoughts?
(Sorry xanthan, I don’t mean to hijack your thread, but: 1) I’m starved for new FA news, and 2) it directly relates to this SS discussion)
Matt Cain's drinking buddy
by Buck Henry on Nov 16, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I liked the gap idea between Ochoa and Bocock. It tells it like it is since the purpose of this table is to lay out MLB ready talent in the organization at say mid March 2009.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 17, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The SP thing really isn’t making any sense to me. Martinez will definitely get a call up if Zito gets hurt, but Hammond, Maday, and English will be ahead of him if Sanchez gets hurt? Why is Alderson a #1 and Bumgarner a #2? I don’t understand what all of this means.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Nov 16, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just changed it, the first version didn’t make as much sense as I would have liked.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool
I didn’t mean to pile on, BTW, I didn’t see the discussion you had about it over there ^^^.
zenbitz’s idea still makes more sense to me, since there’s no “SP2 role” – there are 5 SP roles. But it doesn’t make a big differnce anyway.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Nov 16, 2008 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bowker probably belongs as a 3rd-stringer at both corner OF spots, and Frandsen might see time at 3rd
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Nov 16, 2008 11:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I was going to make the same point about Bowker
I think we would see him in one of those corner OF spots before Copeland or Horwitz
by FluLikeSymptoms on Nov 16, 2008 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good call, I’m make the change.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Are Not Ortmeier, Horwitz, and Timpner Minor League Free Agents Too?
Were they not removed from the 40 man roster just like Threets? Further, why do you think English is a minor league free agent? He was never on the 40 man roster that I know of. Seems to me he is just rule 5 eligabe if not added to the 40 man roster by the deadline.
With regards to starting pitching depth all the talk I am hearing seems to indicate that he Giants see Pucetus as next in line among the starters not yet on the 40 man roster? So, why do you then put both Hammond and Martinez ahead of him?
Lastly, why haven’t you included one of the relievers that is currently on the 40 man roster? What is your reason for excluding Kelvin Pichardo?
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 11:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure that the Giants still have control of Ort, Horwitz, and Timpner.
BA has this list of minor league FA’s in the Giants System. Threets and English were included.
San Francisco Giants (25)
RHP: Nate Bump (AA), Jesse Foppert (AAA), Kevin Gryboski (AAA), Julio Mateo (AAA), Anthony Moreno (Hi A), Scott Munter (AAA), Roberto Novoa (AAA), Matt Palmer (AAA), Ronnie Ray (AA), Victor Santos (AAA), Josh Sharpless (AA)
LHP: Jesse English (Hi A), Jesus Reina (SS), Erick Threets (AAA), Jason Waddell (AA)
C: Eliezer Alfonzo (AAA), Dayton Buller (Lo A), Eli Whiteside (AAA)
1B: Brett Harper (AAA)
2B: Derin McMains (SS)
3B: Julio Cordido (AA), Justin Leone (AAA), Olmo Rosario (AA)
SS: Jake Wald (AAA)
OF: Carlos Sosa (AA)
I had Pichardo on but I moved him behind Valdez, for some reason the edit didn’t take on my post above. I’ll re-edit it.
I can’t see the Giants calling up Pucetas before Misch, Hammond, or Martinez if a starter goes down.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Any Clue Why English Is Not Just Rule 5 Eligabe Unless Added To 40 Man Roster?
What am I missing here?
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 12:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t he considered a 6-year minor league FA? I’m always fuzzy on transaction details. Someone could probably correct me but English started with the Giants in 2002, he’s been in our system for 6 years at the end of ’08.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 12:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Correct Here
But what I understand to be required is that the Giants add Jesse English to the 40 man roster to keep him from becoming minor league free agent eligable. Seems to me they still have time to do this unless I am missing something here.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
6 year minor leaguers are free agents regardless of whether or not they’re on the 40 man roster. Regarding your former question, the Rule 5 Draft is for players who’ve played 3 minor league seasons and aren’t on the 40 man roster, unless they were signed before their 19th birthday, in which case the the team gets an extra year.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Nov 16, 2008 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Am Not Getting This
It soulds like you are saying that for a player not added to the 40 man roster in his first rule 5 draft eligable year his team loses an option year for that year and every year thereafter that they do not add him to the 40 man roster. I am having a hard time believing this is the case. Can you provide a link?
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 1:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the key to your confusion is deadlines
You’re conflating the free agency deadline and the Rule 5 deadline (which comes later). Had the Giants added English to their 40 man roster along last month when they were adjusting their 40 man, I believe you are quite correct that he would then be considered a major leaguer and thus not eligible for minor league free agency. And again, I believe you’re quite correct that option years aren’t affected by this process at all — once a player is added to the 40 man a team has three option years, whether or not they had previously exposed that player to the Rule 5 draft (as indeed English was last year).
However, the deadline for free agency strikes first. Minor leaguers become free agents on the very same day as major leaguers and so, last Tuesday or Wednesday, whenever it was, because the Giants had not put English on their 40 man at that time, he hit his six year mark and became an ex-Giant, completely beyond their ability to control or move, and consequently the Rule 5 draft deadline no longer applies to their relationship to him. They could well resign him but until they do so, he isn’t theirs to put on any roster they maintain or control.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Nov 16, 2008 8:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Further, At This Point How Do You Know
which 40 Man Roster Players will make the 25 Man Roster? At this point are they not all major leaguers?
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Looked It Up And You Are Right on Horwitz and Timpner
They like Geno Espineli were drafted in 2004 and thus only have 4+ years (not the 6 required for minor league free agency) of pro experience and thus can be outrighted to the minors once without thus becoming minor league free agent eligable. However Dan Ortmeier was drafted in 2002 and thus has the 6 years of pro experience required to qualify for free agency. Therefore I think BA missed Dan unless his major league experience makes him a major league (as opposed to minor league) free agent in how BA is seeing him.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to twist this minor league OF more…
Copeland. He has played a lot games in CF. Though not last year in Fresno . With Timpner being entrenched in Cf does anyone know that Copeland was moved to right field because he can’t play CF or was he moved because it was the more open spot when JuggerNate went on the Olympic team?
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Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 17, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts from Heaven
Penciling in Noah Lowry as 5th starter today would be a risk. Hopefully he will surprise us all. If Sandoval is the everyday starter at 3b then he probably would be the 3rd string catcher.
Looking at the depth at SS it is no wonder Furcal is high on Sabean’s wish list. With Franny playing lots of SS at AFL he might be listed as a backup at SS.
by wilriv21 on Nov 16, 2008 11:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Also (or actually) I think you have to fit Burriss in somewhere in the 2B list (probably at #2). If a FA SS is signed, Manny immediately slots into a battle with Franny for starting 2B, so his presence needs to be suggested in the 2B mix much as Sandoval is at 1b/3b/c.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Nov 16, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good call, Roger. I’ll move Burriss down to #2 on 2B for now.
I’m not sure about putting Franny in the mix for 3B, what do others think?
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Franny should be #2 on the 3B list. It’s more likely he will play than rohlinger or gillespie, plus Franny will likely be the only other player capable of playing 3B on the 25-man come the start of the season
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I Think Franny Should Also Be #2 At SS
He is playing some SS in the AFL and as the roster stands now he would be both the backup SS behind Burriss and the backup 3B behind Sandoval on the most likely 25 man roster made for the options the Giants currently have. I just don’t see even Ochoa and especially Boacock as real canidates for the 25 Man Roster.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see Bocock as the starting SS at AAA, trying to improve his hitting while maintaining his D in case of injury
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The table was pretty enough to move to the front page. As for the rest, I was all tl;dr.
Seriously, though, awesome work.
by Grant on Nov 16, 2008 12:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
And I think based on the comments from Sabean this offseason, Pucetas might be above Hammond Eggs.
by Grant on Nov 16, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dr. Suess..
Doesn’t have enough impact on this organization anymore.
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Grant!
What do people think of Misch, Martinez, Pucetas, Hammond? Martinez should start the year in AAA and he’s coming off a very nice year in AA.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a fan of Martinez and think he should be in the running for the #5 spot in real life. I think, out of all the options, he would be the best.
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by marcello on Nov 16, 2008 12:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Marcello’s comments and I think that it is likely the AAA starting rotation would include at least Misch, Martinez and Hammond, if not Pucetas as well, and I would lean on Martinez first out of those 4 for an extended stint and I would promote Misch first for a limited stint
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re-thinking pitching
Viewing the depth chart SF does not possess the starting pitching depth that is required to compete for a playoff spot. The Giants have three (Lincecum, Cain and Zito) and supposedly are dangling Sanchez in possible trade scenarios. Noah Lowry is tentative at best at this time. There is no one in the cupboard (Misch, Hammonds, Pereira) and the next line of quality pitching (Martinez, Pucetas, Alderson) are a year away.
Would expect a SP to arrive via trade or thru FA to help fortify the rotation. Would love to see SF revisit Merkin Valdez as a possible starter.
by wilriv21 on Nov 16, 2008 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Wild Card Here Is Pucetas
I think the Giants think he is ready even though he has not had any experience above A+ yet.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that if the Giants are aggressive, they will start Pucetas in AAA with the possibility of promoting him midseason to the 5th starters role
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see SF from my dugout in San Jose
Please close the San Jose to Mays FIeld pipeline. You betcha.
by wilriv21 on Nov 16, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this was the Talent part of the competition….?
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
by Lyle on Nov 16, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be surprised if they started Pucetas off like that, they’ve been pretty steady with him so far. Moving him just one level at a time, even after he dominated in Augusta in ’07.
I haven’t seen the recent Sabean comments on Pucetas, what’s he saying?
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bumgardner Is Expected To Skip A+ In 2009
Alderson skipped A in 2008. In addition, Pucetas is already 24 so I do not at all find it hard to believe that the Giants would decide to have him skip AA in 2009.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 2:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Alderson and Bumgarner are nothing like Pucetas. The Giants tend to be conservative with pitcher-types like Pucetas (ie: finesse pitchers).
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
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by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Really
Noah Lowry only had half a year of AA then when straight to the majors skipping AAA.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lowry ended 2003 in AAA after throwing 118 innings in AA. In that same year he pitched just 6 innings as a September call up in a relief role and was never used as a starter. In ’04 he started the year in AAA and pitched 89 innings before returning to the majors and throwing 90 great innings of baseball.
The Giants have moved Pucetas, Tanner, Martinez, and Snyder all one level at a time despite dominating performances from some of them.
Pucetas has no innings at AA and I can’t see the Giants skipping him an entire level, but then again, I haven’t read the supposed Sabean comments that I’ve seen some refer to.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pucetas
I think Pucetas is going to get some serious consideration in spring for the MLB 5th spot and Fresno because of his AFL performance. Most see the AFL as a AA/AAA comparable league. He has always moved one level at a time the last three years and always been marginally old for his level. He has been passed over for promotion by Sosa, Cowart, Snyder, and Maday. This is the first time he has been given a chance and he has excelled.
by nelson95 on Nov 16, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My Mistake
Noah went A- 2001, A+ 2002 (skipping A), AA/AAA/MLB 2003, and then AAA/MLB 2004 before his first full season of MLB in 2005.
Pucetas would be basicly on the same schedule if he joins the Giants roation mid year 2009.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s not forget that Noah was a 1st round pick and Pucetas was a 17th rounder. That does affect an org’s development strategy, not only because of the money invested in 1st rounders, but because of the dramatically different value they’ve seen in the two players from the beginning. Lowry might well have been up faster had he not battled arm injuries his first two years in the minors.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on Nov 16, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Context man
Lets not forget the Giants had just come off a 100 win season with and were in defiantly a win now mode because Bonds was in his final year(s).
Just for Giggles who were the best 5 arms on the 2004 Squad that Lowry basically broke into with ?
Schmidt ( 31),
Hermanson ( 31 did time as starter & closer),
Tomko (31) ?
Woody ( 33 in the last full year of his carrer)?
Brower (31)?
Not a lot there to block anyone from shooting up the ranks once they have a hot streak in the upper minors. Compared to the top 5 arms in the parent club right now there is just not as large of a talent vacuum.
I am not saying a guy can’t raise fast but I just don’t see the motivation currently to push a guy hard and hope like they did with Lowry and Sanchez.
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Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 17, 2008 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Valdez was moved to a starter, he would be viewed the same way as lowry; a starter that could be good but can’t be depended on. The Giants shouldn’t shy away from signing a decent starter to a two year deal or so, possibilities would include Jon Garland, Brad Penny, Kris Benson and Matt Clement. If Lowry and Valdez produce, that is good, but it cannot be factored into possible promotions/trades/FA signings
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 16, 2008 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve recently been thinking about the Threets-as-starter possibility. I noticed they experimented with this at Fresno, but can’t really remember how he did. Was this right at the end of the year? If he does come back, maybe this is how they’ll work him. Desperation? Yes. Interesting? Possibly.
by BigO on Nov 16, 2008 8:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think..
That the experiment was really because of him turning into a starter as much as giving him steady innings so he can work on stuff. Instead of giving him an inning here or there and warming him up then sitting him down. Many relievers will go down to AAA and become “starters” and perhaps start every 4 days and go 3-4 innings.
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 8:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh. Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I just assumed that they had kind of given up on him as a reliever, but apparently not.
by BigO on Nov 16, 2008 8:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike WalrusMan, I remember him actually being a starter and doing pretty well.
That could easily be wrong though.
My current Interwebs obsession is pretty awesome. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
by groug on Nov 16, 2008 10:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
DON'T ENCOURAGE HIM!!!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
by jponry on Nov 16, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great chart, horrible lineup.
Without killing anyone
We've won it 3 times
by ChrisHero on Nov 16, 2008 1:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
TEIXEIRA!!!!?
Adopted son of in limbo Brad Hennessey. Beloved for a stolen base much like Dave Roberts
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 16, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Have computers become aware?
I mean, look at this! xanthan’s trying to take over Grant the human’s site!!!
The depth chart looks fine to me. I might slide Phelps ahead of Sandoval, but i’m hoping that Pablo spends most of his time at 3B and at catcher.
btw, where’s Denker?
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Nov 16, 2008 1:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Depth Chart 1.0 posted on the MCC….
Depth Chart 2.0 posted on BCB….
Hmm.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
btw, where’s Denker?
Oooh, don’t let oldjacket see that.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
look on the bright side
at least Velez is still around
/pounds head into the wall
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Nov 16, 2008 5:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Posey might be the fourth best catcher, but if the first three were injured, I don’t think Posey would play in the majors yet. It seems like they’d want him in the minors for awhile. I read that the Giants want Posey to play 300 minor league games before playing in the majors. He’s doing winter league, so maybe that’s like two more seasons.
by parisspleen on Nov 16, 2008 1:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Initially was disappointed SF sent Gerald Posey to HWB rather to AFL where his fellow draft peers (Matusz, Beckham, Smoak and Wallace) were playing. Then I remembered what the SF organization had said about young catchers and 300 minor league games and it seemed to make (more) sense.
If Posey plays HWB this winter he then can play AFL next winter while gaining the experience the Giants wanted from their young catching prospect. Does Posey begin 2009 in San Jose or Connecticut? Where does Jackson Williams begin?
by wilriv21 on Nov 16, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think..
If he plays the AFL one year he can’t the next. Didn’t Frandsen play last year?
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Fransen Played In The AFL In 2006 Not 2007
But Burriss did play in the AFL in 2007 as an injury replacement for Velez mid season. So perhaps this restiction only applies to players that play the whole year.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand what you mean by the 5th back up in LF. The arrangement and order of letters do not make sense to me. Please explain.
Adopted son of in limbo Brad Hennessey. Beloved for a stolen base much like Dave Roberts
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Nov 16, 2008 3:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Two Minor Corrections
1) You missed an r in your spelling of Burriss as #2 at 2B.
2) You missed a bold for Gillaspie who is on the 40 Man Roster.
by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2008 7:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, fixed ’em.
I always forget that Gillaspie is already on the 40-man.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 16, 2008 7:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey I skipped like forty comments, but if this is really a depth chart starting pitching would not have Zito/Lowry/Sanchez/Misch back to back in any order. The whole breaking up of lineups theory, etc.
If Lewis went down in left, Winn would play left, and Schierholtz would play right, but its a minor issue.
You don’t want to put labels on bullpen guys like closer, setup, and long relief?
Oh, and just for fun can you list Schierholtz at number 4 for third?
by lincysgiants on Nov 16, 2008 7:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that last comment.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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by WalrusMan on Nov 16, 2008 8:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He should probably be #3. Third best at third!
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
by Lyle on Nov 17, 2008 9:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That begs the question…Why is cain lised as SP2? isn’t he supposed to be 3rd a….oh.
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Nov 18, 2008 7:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So if we trade Molina and Ishikawa gets hurt, that means Pablo gets to play 3B, 1B and catch! Woohoo!!!
I’d probably bat him #2, #5 and #8.
Yes we did!
by Goofus on Nov 17, 2008 9:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Once the cloning program is successful we will then move to cloning Cyborgs.
Now were did that 12 year old wunderkind go?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Here comes Captain Obvious wearing his Atomic Wedgie!
by daveinexile on Nov 17, 2008 9:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just bumped off Threets for Affeldt.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 11:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Er, I meant to say I’m adding Affeldt. Must have Threets on the brain. I wonder if Taschner is gone now? I hope so.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
by xanthan on Nov 17, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Nov 17, 2008 1:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
who let the robot in?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Nov 17, 2008 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Wow that was a quick edit
Hasheem "The Beat" Thabeet or Brandon Jennings. A Warrior in 09.
by ejdacanay on Nov 17, 2008 12:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
picking nits and pebbles
can’t find if i posted this already…
Kyle Haines, a shortstop signed in 04, now 26 yrs old, had OPS 694 in Connect., I think he’d be called up next year ahead of bocock or crawford. Schoop would too. Or maybe Haines is a free agent.
Likewise, at first base its real unlikely Angel V hits the majors in 09. Witter (played lots of first) would be called up sooner. Or Pill or D’Allessio who shared the spot in SJose.
And at third or second, Maroul is creeping up the depth chart slowly, i’d put him either right ahead or behind gillaspie. signed in 05, hits mediocre.
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by foothillsfan on Nov 18, 2008 10:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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