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Behind the Dish

Big Money. Lil' Money. Lotta Money (Buster to you).

I've been thinking a little about the best way forward. Bengie clearly performed well this year, but he is also clearly not part of the future on this team. He's got a year left on the contract, and, one way or another, he'll be paid $6million for it. Not a bad deal, really. The thing is, if he's not part of the team going forward, then it might make sense to move him out this winter. This assumes that there is a market for him - a safe bet, to me - and that Pablito is ready to take over (yes, again). More on what you could get for him in a minute.

What I can't figure out is whether it makes more sense to arrange things so that Pablo catches in 2009, or if it is better to let him develop at a corner position if that's where he's liable to end up (see Lotta Money, above). My hunch is that you do want to see what he can do for you behind the plate this year, mostly because once you put away the tools of ignorance, well...you may well see the light (and never find out if ignorance was indeed bliss). Enough of that. Hopefully you get what I mean. It may also turn out that Posey has some major flaws as a catcher, though this doesn't sound especially likely.

So: who wants Pablo fully entrenched at an infield corner, so that he learns his place? And who wants him strappin' 'em on '09, if only to delay the inevitable? Since part of the puzzle is clearly what Bengie might fetch in the open market, I also present to you the following outrageous proposal:

 

Astros get Bengie (they have recently publicly said they in that market)

Giants get Miggy Tejada and lhp Tim Byrdak (or subsitute a reliever other than Valverde of your choice).

We'd either lose a chunk of change ($6.5m), or maybe the Stros cover some of it. Or maybe it's straight up, and they cover the difference in contracts.

Miggy plays 3rd, Pablo catches, and Ishikawa plays 1st (unless we go big here). Franny and Manny up the middle.

I know that Tejada was terrible last year, but that's partly why it might be a shrewd one-year move.

Anyway, skip the deal if you want. I'm mainly interested in the question in the initial segment.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Post-steroids

Tejada kinda sucks, no?

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Oct 9, 2008 2:23 PM PDT   0 recs

Yeah

If we’re going to give up Bengie, I’d like it to be for someone who could be above average at some point. Right now, I’d say that Tejada’s declined enough that he’s not that guy.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.

by groug on Oct 9, 2008 2:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You’re probably right that Miggy is unlikely to be “above average” offensively, especially at 3b. Szymborski projects his 2009 line as .300 .344 .441, though, which is actually right around average for 3b. (though that’s certainly jacked up by Astro-field?). It also lists him as an average SS, but I’ve seen several metrics where he rates above that. The real danger might be that Colossal-Head would try to play him at SS if Burriss struggled…

by BigO on Oct 9, 2008 2:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

His home and road splits aren’t much different.

Road .273 5 36 vs. Home .293 8 30

A gamer does NOT wear a foam finger, a dork does.

by SFGuy on Oct 10, 2008 1:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well Tejada, like Bengie, is a FA after next year, and though Bengie had a slightly better year at the plate you could argue he was performing a notch above his typical level. So essentially the bat is the same either way and we give up an awesome dude who blocks our best young hitter (in ML) for an okay dude who doesn’t block squat, and either way the contract goes poof after 09. I’d do it, especially if we can get Byrdak or whoever and don’t have to spend a bunch of money on a FA reliever.

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Oct 9, 2008 4:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"whoever" = Geoff Geary

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Oct 9, 2008 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't be against that trade

I agree that Bengie, while a terrific guy, isn’t part of the next good Giants team. If there is indeed a market for his services, I think we should pursue that option.

Little Money appears to not be an ideal choice for thirdbase (limited lateral range) or for firstbase (limited…uh…height). That’s not to say he will not or should play either of those positions next year – but the real question here, I think, is “where can he play when we assemble our Next Great Giants team?”

Lotta Money really is the 800 pound gorilla in this discussion, isn’t he? I am not absolutely wedded to the idea of Gerald being only a catcher. It’s his bat we especially want in the lineup, just as we want Pablito’s in the lineup somewhere next season. If we still want Sandoval starting during the Posey Years (as future historians will call it), maybe our best option is to leave Pablo at his best position (catcher) and take advantage of his positional flexibility defensively so that we can get the maximum number of good hitters into the starting lineup. So maybe Posey plays SS, as he did his freshman year. Maybe he’s the next Craig Biggio and takes over 2B for a decade and more. Or maybe Nick Noonan becomes a lock at 2B, and Burriss or Crawford or Schoop turns out to be a terrific SS – then perhaps Buster is our starting CF. Or LF. I think we should remain open-minded about where he ends up playing – because it appears Gerald Posey can play pretty much anywhere.

So, I think Pablo’s future depends on how Crawford, Noonan, Frandsen, and Burriss turn out. Weird, huh?

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Oct 9, 2008 2:26 PM PDT   0 recs

"his" positional flexibility = Buster's

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Oct 9, 2008 2:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Versatility

The versatility of Pablito, Gerald and hopefully Big V could play huge for future SF teams.

by wilriv21 on Oct 9, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If you got a chance to see Posey in person, he’s not a very big guy. I’d be concerned that he would stand up to the rigors of catching in the majors on an everyday basis. Never seen him play, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he moves off that position some day.

Similarly, Sandoval at either 1st or 3rd long term concerns me also. Certainly doesn’t add to the “pitching, speed & defense” mantra that asshat Sabean is now espousing.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Oct 9, 2008 5:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

smaller = better.

catchers should be little guys so there isn’t too much weight and pressure put on their knees.

Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 9, 2008 6:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Where has it been said..

That Posey is not going to be a catcher? He was pretty much drafted because he’s a quick moving catcher. If he isn’t a catcher, then his value is fairly diminished.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.

by WalrusMan on Oct 9, 2008 7:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was going to post,

but Lyle pretty much covered it . Nice post.

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Oct 9, 2008 2:51 PM PDT   0 recs

You’re too kind. Am I’m still a big Matt Downs fan. Maybe Matt could come over for a play date with Sergio some time?

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Oct 9, 2008 5:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You Mean This Guy ?

Photobucket

He’s a stud. Maybe they could play catch in the back yard :-)

My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.

by nvsfg on Oct 9, 2008 6:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think...

Haha – as if everyone is waiting with baited breath.

The problem with committing Pablo to a corner is that his value goes out the window. We should train Pablo as a catcher next season regardless the status with Molina. Certainly on any given day having Pablo’s bat in the lineup is better than not – but I think his focus should be on catching with the “off” days given @ 1st or 3rd base (Victor Martinez or Russel Martin style).

If/when Posey makes a sustainable appearance, then I think we should investigate the option of trading one of the two. Trading Pablo Sandoval after 2009 for someone’s blocked 3b might be one of the few single player for single player trades that makes sense. Pablo’s youth and bat at the catcher position makes him very valuable, and we should be able to get better offensive production at a corner infield position back in trade without much trouble.

If their performance meets expectations, I certainly don’t think that we should try to either convert them to other positions or have one of the two sit the bench. The value in trade of either of them as young offensively apt catchers would be substantial.

Remember – While both Posey and Pablo project to be well above average offensive catchers, Neither projects to be much above average at the corner IF positions. The only conversion that makes sense with projected performance is Posey to SS.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Oct 9, 2008 3:07 PM PDT   0 recs

After the fun at the end of the season, I think I do sometimes forget that Pablo’s value has its limits. Then again, even if he ended up being league-average at 1B, that’s nothing to turn your nose up at. You’re mainly talking about trade value, I know, but I have a hard time with the idea that we should look to deal either of the young guys. I mean, Pablo can clearly hit, and even the sober numbers man has to admit that he brought energy to the club that was valuable at some level.
Also, I’m just not sure that I can envision a happy world where Pablo is mainly a catcher, and Bengie is also on the squad. In your scenario, does he actually get most of his ab’s as a catcher?

by BigO on Oct 9, 2008 3:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think

That Pablo’s value is going down when it is discovered he is really 28 years old.

by rellubcat on Oct 10, 2008 9:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

lol

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Oct 10, 2008 10:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think its way to early to make decisions about Busta. In theory, he’s 100x more flexible than Pablo and we still really don’t have a good idea where he is in terms of development.

In terms of Bengie, I would really hate to see him go before his contract is up. I have a feeling he’d get pretty butt-hurt, and I’d really hate to part with him like that. He’s been one of the best Giants we’ve had on and off the field for the last couple years, and watching the Big Money/Little Money dynamic at the end of the season was awesomely entertaining. Unless the deal is just too sweet, I think Bengie should stick around.

Brad Hennessey: the next Kevin Correia
Kevin Correia: the next Brad Hennessey

by stealth snail on Oct 9, 2008 3:51 PM PDT   0 recs

I like the deal

…If only to say Miggy, Ishi, Franny, and Manny.

Ralph Barbieri, heal thyself.

by ThrillisGone22 on Oct 9, 2008 4:30 PM PDT   0 recs

excellent point

by BigO on Oct 9, 2008 4:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Tinkers to Evers to Chance

will have nothing on us.

Ralph Barbieri, heal thyself.

by ThrillisGone22 on Oct 9, 2008 4:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Last time we got an ex oakland Athletic, that was good back in oakland, it turned out kind of bad. No thanks on Miggy but I am pro unloading some contracts that won’t be helpful next time we are good if we can get a solid B prospect or someone who might be able to help at third.

by HitorMisch on Oct 9, 2008 5:19 PM PDT   0 recs

You know..

I started to make up this big post about how Ray Durham had really been a good Giant and he just had the one abysmal year and then remembered…..

I still don’t think Yabu was that bad though.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.

by WalrusMan on Oct 9, 2008 8:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My main concern is whether Pablo can really catch. Baseball America has quoted scouts almost universally panning his defense behind the plate (except with a good arm).

I’m not opposed to making him a catcher, of course. I just wouldn’t be too quick to assume he can do it without hurting the team.

by Dan from NM on Oct 9, 2008 9:02 PM PDT   0 recs

I seem to remember a comment by the Giants Front Office that as much as Pablo had shown offensively, the FO was much more impressed by his defensive progression. Maybe someone can help me out, I can’t remember where i heard that.

Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?

by Speedforthewin on Oct 9, 2008 9:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Defense panned now?

I swear I’ve seen reports on him when he was in the low low minors that his bat probably won’t play higher but his defense will keep him in it. Is it just the weight that’s changed/

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.

by WalrusMan on Oct 10, 2008 10:23 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bengie

I’m of the school of thought that Bengie is far more valuable for the Giants next year than he is likely to be for other teams. Bengie should be around for the Giants next year to aid in Pabito’s growth as a catcher and offensive player, as Bengie plays similarly in many ways of the game. Also, the bullpen projects to be very young again, and the rotation will still be young, so having Bengie to work with the youngins is never a bad idea. Also keep in mind that as long as the black hole that is 3B exists, Pablo will get his ABs. Unless the offer includes young players and is enticing, i’d pass.

Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?

by Speedforthewin on Oct 9, 2008 9:59 PM PDT   0 recs

Tejada’s done. I’m not sure he will out hit Bengie next year, let alone Pablo.
As if to spite me, ZIPS (2009) projects him at .300/.344/.441 in Houston which is probably around a 100 OPS+ or so, which I would guess to be better than Molina.

The age might be off, though. zips has him at 33, BR has him at 34 this year, and 35 in 2009.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Oct 9, 2008 10:22 PM PDT   0 recs

Both?

Can’t the Giants use both Buster Posey and Pablo Sandoval, with each playing behind the plate but also at other positions that would help save their legs?

by sharksrog on Oct 9, 2008 10:47 PM PDT   0 recs

That’s assuming you feel that both are good enough defensively at multiple positions that moving them around won’t effect their offensive value to the team. If Buster turns out to be great at C but a hack at SS, then it may be better to just keep him at C and not move him around. Pablo is decent at 1B and 3B, so its not that big of a deal at the moment.

Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?

by Speedforthewin on Oct 10, 2008 7:52 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

an example of this would be Eugenio Velez. When Velez was playing at multiple positions he wasn’t comfortable with defensively, he suffered offensively. Once he stayed at 2B, he found his XB power again

Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?

by Speedforthewin on Oct 10, 2008 7:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Woot!

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Oct 10, 2008 9:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You-JEEN-ee-oh

If Eugenio Velez isn’t able to play multiple positions, preferably including his original position of shortstop, I think his career will be in jeopardy. It is possible he can become a regular second baseman, but his most likely role would seem to be as a utility player.

Utility players who can’t play multiple positions usually can’t play.

by sharksrog on Oct 12, 2008 11:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Number nine

Buster Posey played all nine positions in one game this past college season, but my guess is that if he were to play another position, it usually wouldn’t be shortstop. If he can play at a major league level there, all the better. But it doesn’t look to me as if he has the speed one would truly like for the position.

I was thinking more third base, which would perhaps enable him to share two positions with Pablo. But the more positions either player can play, the better it should work out. Versatility is a good thing, both for finding playing time and to help compensate for injuries at various positions.

My guess is that BOTH Buster and Pablo will be best defensively behind the plate, but in particular since I believe Buster has a fine chance to be a star, saving his legs for a longer career would seem preferable. Perhaps sharing the catching position would allow BOTH players longer careers.

I’m not entirely convinced on Pablo at third, but he certainly didn’t disgrace himself there. At first base he actually looked surprisingly good, with his lack of height perhaps his only weakness at the position. And perhaps he could even learn to play the position left-handed. :)

Buster was originally a shortstop, so in theory he could learn to play almost anywhere on the infield. I would be surprised if he couldn’t play either corner outfield position, as well.

My point is that the opportunities between the two players could be almost boundless. I could see the two players splitting time behind the dish, with Buster playing perhaps 70 games at other positions and Pablo playing perhaps another 50. If Pablo can learn to hit lefties, he too could play almost every game somewhere.

Supposedly Conor Gillaspie is athletic enough to play second base. If that became his primary position, his bat could play very strongly there. And perhaps the two catchers could man the hot corner between them on most days, with Conor perhaps rotating to third occasionally in order to get someone such as Nick Noonan or Kevin Frandsen in the lineup.

Ideally, Angel Villalona could provide power at first base, and the Giants could feature an outfield with players such as Rafael Rodriguez, Roger Kieshnick, Nate Schierholtz, Fred Lewis and Wendell Fairley.

Between them, Emmanuel Burriss and Brandon Crawford could handle shortstop, with Burriss another possibility for spot play at the keystone.

The point is that the Giants could be developing both some skill and some versatility for their everyday positions. Both catchers could add to the versatility — and help keep each other fresh.

by sharksrog on Oct 12, 2008 11:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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