Mike Jacobs and CC Sabathia to the Giants' rumors
by rxmeister on Oct 26, 2008 3:45 PM PDT
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PrintThe Miami Herald reported today that after a deal for Mike Jacobs fell through with the Royals last week, they are now talking with Toronto and San Francisco. No word on what they want in return, but they were getting a minor league pitcher from the Royals, so that's probably what the Giants would have to give up. As for CC, Bill Madden, who's usually a decent source said that the Giants "are prepared to be players for Sabathia despite the Zito contract." He also quoted an unnamed NL GM as saying the Giants are the wildcard here, although he thinks the Dodgers are the favorites,
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Mike Jacobs?
Really? Meh, I guess? He’d probably be an around average offensive player in SF, but I’d rather see Ishikawa play 1B for not giving up a prospect.
And Re: Sabathia..
Our payroll from 2003-2004 was $82 million, and 2005-2007 was $90 million. Last year it was only $76 million. If we were to get Sabathia ($20 million/year)and raise payroll up to $90 million, we would have ~$50 million for your entire team besides 2 spots of your rotation.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
When Cantu has to be your late inning glove replacement I think its safe to say Jacobs glove suck can’t be stopped. You can only hope to contain it. Add to it Felizain Obp and no thanks. Not sure I want him even for a song.
If taking tradeing anything for an arbitration eligible project type players rather have Willingham and his questionable back. Start shifting him over to first as well at corner outfield time. Dump Roberts for room on the 25 man .
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Mike Jacobs = nah
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.
I agree, he would be about the same as Ishi and worse then Pablo, but it would cost something to get him
I see the future, and it is Pablo
I agree with the anti-Jacobs sentiment. He’s terrible defensively, and yet another lefty hitting first baseman. If Sabean is interested in him, and he appears to be, it’s yet another example of Sabean looking at a player compiling numbers in a different ballpark and thinking he will do the same thing at ATT.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
For a 1B that should be a DH. Just awful.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
I’d rather have C.C. play first base. That cat can rake.
LinceCain and pray for rain .... or for someone to take Zito off our hands.
this
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 26, 2008 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I can’t believe that no one said CF ! Is that too last year ?
My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.
CF..
That’s someone they sign. Not someone they trade for.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
I guess
I need to go back and read my " Giants Front Office Handbook 2009 Edition"
My adopted son Matt Downs. Lost in the wilderness of mediocrity.
2nd base is the new cf
Brad Hennessey: the next Kevin Correia
Kevin Correia: the next Brad Hennessey
by stealth snail on Oct 27, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions
As opposed to,..
The Unmentioned One?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
I don't think Zito had durability risks
He just had risks of suckiness, which he’s already lived up to
CC could get hurt very, very soon…the guy is much too large and was worked into the ground last year
by NeifiChicken on Oct 26, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Which is what I mean..
Zito will turn out really badly in the back half.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Or maybe Zito's suckiness is caused
by injuries / scar tissue that have built up over the years, the result being his mechanics are disrupted, or he’s not as flexible as before, or not as explosive as before, etc.
Or maybe CC’s high workload over the years, has conditioned him to be able to handle a heavy workload.
My point is that I wish people would stop being so sure about the health of baseball players, especially pitchers. The information that teams and players, tell fans is way too for outside observers, ie fans or writers or analyst, scanty to come to any kind of conclusion about a player’s health.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
maybe
But in general, pitcher abuse points over a long period of time don’t bode well for a player’s future and when a guy like CC has as many as he does it’s a red flag. Not to mention the Brewer’s also pitched him on 3 days rest about a half dozen times last year, which might not be damning, but certainly not a good thing.
His size is a wild card, because there have been very few pitchers his size in baseball’s history, but I’d imagine that body type doesn’t hold up as well over time.
Either way, there is more than enough objective evidence to suggest that CC is a risky long term investment, so when we are talking about spending over 140 million dollars, the risk seems to high to justify the reward.
by NeifiChicken on Oct 27, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Pitcher abuse points
are “objective” evidence? And conjecture about “body type” is more objective evidence?
OK, serious question, just what “type” of body does Sabathia have? How do you define this “type”? What other players fit into this “type”?
Does anyone even know objectively what CC’s body fat percentage is? What his diet is like? His strength? Flexibility? Various measures of athleticism like vertical jump, 10 yard sprint times, 40 yard sprint times? His resting heart rate? BP? Has anyone seen an MRI of his elbow? His shoulder? Subjected him to various manual apprehension, flexibility, and strength tests for his shoulder?
All I see is a lot of subjective conjecture.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
The problem, as a practical matter, is that you can’t get that information; Sabathia and his agent won’t let you. You have to go on guesswork and speculation, and then the Winner’s Curse kicks in and you usually end up in trouble.
My hope of getting Sabathia would be that his risk factors are so obvious that teams will be scared off from giving him the contract he deserves, and his hometown team can slip in with a big but not bank-breaking offer. But it’s a faint hope.
The problem, as a practical matter, is that you can’t get that information; Sabathia and his agent won’t let you. You have to go on guesswork and speculation
I think that’s his point though. You can’t do anything but guess and therefore it’s not really worthwhile and in fact may be counterproductive.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
As Marcello said,
that’s precisely my point. The information that you need to come to a determination that is at least somewhat worthwhile and reliable, will never be available to anyone but the teams themselves.
For all we know, Sabathia might have sustained damage from all those 200+ IP seasons. He might be headed for a quick decline, because he looks fat.
Then again, maybe not. For one, judging an athlete’s physical preparedness visually, with clothes on, is way too unreliable. To use an example, if a guy has a big ass, an ass that looks fat with pants on, it could be because, he needs to lay off the cupcakes / doritos / cheeseburgers / donuts etc. OTOH, it might be because he works his lower body hard, via exercises like squats, deadlifts, sled dragging, tire dragging, etc, resulting in a well developed lower body: big ass, big hips, big thighs.
As outsiders, it’s pretty much impossible to tell because the info isn’t available, not just because players and their agents won’t give you that info. Even teams themselves often are less than honest about their player’s health. JP Riciardi’s lies about BJ Ryan’s injury for one. The A’s well known tendency of stating that a player is “day to day” for weeks, or even months, for another.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
What's wrong with pitcher abuse points?
How are they not objective? Are they the end all, be all? Certainly not, but they definitely present evidence that suggest plenty of risk.
Not too mention the very nature of pitching is inherently risky. In truth, I’d be weary of investing 140 million dollars into any pitcher, let alone one that has shouldered CC’s workload and racked up the pitcher abuse points like he has.
Perhaps CC will never have an injury problem in his career, I can’t say for certain, but I can say for certain that pitchers generally have more injury risk than hitters because of the nature of their jobs, and within the sub category of pitchers CC seems injury prone to me because of the workload he has had to endure already in his career.
In the Giants particular situation, they already have boatloads tied into another lefty and will need boatloads if they plan to keep both Cain and Lincecum down the line.
Obviously I don’t know as much about CC Sabathia’s health as mlb teams, but for that matter NONE OF US know much of anything that major league teams don’t already know better than us (well, most of them).
Personally, I don’t think there are many pitchers I would ever want to put 140 million dollars into, and CC isn’t one of them because he has endured too great a workload with his pitch counts over the years. Maybe that won’t affect CC personally at all, but in general, those workloads tend to catch up to pitchers and is thus too much risk for a team that no longer has that margin for error (used it up on Zito)
by NeifiChicken on Oct 28, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
in looking int othe actual PAP numbers
Perhaps I overestimated the kind of abuse CC has actually taken prior to 2008. He’d been towards the top of the league, sure, but 2008 was certainly a whole new level.
Still, I’m not interested because there is still more risk than I like involved, and I think the PAP would only continue under the Giants, who continue to work Lincecum and Cain into the ground
by NeifiChicken on Oct 28, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
One, PAP is arbitrary
BPro and statheads like to criticise “old school” writers / analysts / baseball people for using arbitrary round numbers, yet, the numbers used as cut offs in PAP by Jayazerli are completely arbitrary.
Two, PAP only measures pitch counts. No attempt to account for pitch velocity, pitch type. PAP is just pitch counts dressed up to look “scientific” by BPro.
Three, when people use things like PAP, they often assume that human athletes are like the tires or brakes on your car and not living organisms who can become stronger, increase their work capacity, increase their current adaptation reserve. Workload / stress is NOT bad. Too much workload / stress too soon is bad.
But, anyways, you’re kinda missing my point. I’m not saying that the Giants should sign CC. I’m saying that people should not be so confidently postulating about his health, or the health of any particular player, especially pitchers.
With things like stats like OBP etc, the information for the stats is there. With things like health and injuries, the information simply isn’t available. Speculating about injuries is kinda similar to speculating about whether the Giants are going to trade Matt Cain for Player X.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
that's what she said?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Oct 27, 2008 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions
um
no and yes. thanks.
Mischievously implosive purple pitching staff.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 26, 2008 8:28 PM PDT reply actions
No to Mike Jacobs. He’s probably 15 to 20 runs above replacement level on offense, but 5 to 10 runs below average on defense. That’s not a guy you worry about acquiring unless it’s for free.
Tehan
I would prefer Tehan. MLBTR mentions that the Royals and Indians are discussing a possible trade. I think the Giants should try to snag him to play 3B. Jacobs would be a great idea if he didn’t suck.
Proud father of Eric Surcamp!
teahen
i would agree with this one. however, the MLBTR article states the royal want a young OF. Unlike past years, the OF depth isn’t what it used to be. I wouldn’t want to give up Lewis, Bowker or Schierholtz for Teahen, but he would be a nice alternative to the Edwin Encarnacion-Kevin Kouzmanoff 3B possibilities and probably a bit cheaper too.
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Oct 27, 2008 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Teahen is one of those guys who was ticketed for stardom but has done nothing in his big league career. If he was 22 it would be one thing, but he’s now 27 (same age as Jacobs) and I see nothing in his big league stats that would make him better than even Pedro Feliz. Low batting average, 130 K’s a season, and doesn’t walk enough. He’s also a crappy third baseman, which is why the Royals moved him to the outfield, where his lack of production is even more of a liability. He improved to 15 HR’s last season, but how many would that translate to at ATT?? Ten?? Imagine if he played third base for us in 2008, and hit .255 with 10 HR, struck out 131 times, walked only 46 times and made 20 errors. How much would we hate him?? However put him on another team and he’s a desired stud. Makes no sense.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
you are right. However, i would rather have teahen then any FA or most waiver wire pickups (castillo). I mean, what do we want at 3rd, a Frandsen/Sandoval platoon?
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Oct 27, 2008 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I can see it, and would prefer it, i just don’t see the braintrust seeing it through
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Oct 27, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t really disagree about Teahen, especially because of his fielding. But it’s worth noting that Royals stadium is just as tough to hit home runs in as our field.
I’d rather have Castillo!! As bad as he is, you’re paying him the minimum and Teahan is at or approaching arbitration. Imagine paying Teahen about 5 million to produce Castillo-Feliz numbers. You’d probably have to non tender him and let him go after a year or two. The Giants already have a better option than all of them if they decide to make Pablo Sandoval their everyday third baseman. Of course Sabean has Pablo “penciled in at first” already. Then again, if he’s talking about getting Jacobs, maybe his plan is for Pablo to play third anyway.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
Teahen would be a great idea if he didn't suck.
Teahen isn’t any better than Jacobs. He’s better defensively than Jacobs, worse offensively.
The principal value of both is in their cheap salaries, nothing more.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
One ticket!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
lol I hadn't seen the DNW news anchor
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 27, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I love CC, but would love Texiera more if we’re gonna go out and blow big bucks.
(Not that the bucks would mind getting blown.)
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
Yes
If the Giants are going to throw a bunch of cash at a FA, my vote would be to throw it at Teixiera.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
by marklar on Oct 27, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Almost without a doubt the best option on the market, if you’re going to throw money around.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
throwing money around
which the Giants shouldn’t
Todd Jennings: If he's on the DL, he can't suck as much, right?
by Speedforthewin on Oct 27, 2008 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I can see some
reason behind signing Texiera.
1) He can actually for real mash.
2) He forces sandoval to 3B/C where he’s way more valuable
3) ….
4) Profit!
On the flip side is AnVil… but I wouldn’t mind forcing him to play 3B and Sandoval to C. Also AnVil is just now 18. Even if they go all out and give Texiera a 7 year contract (which I think is probably 2 years too long) AnVil will only be 25! Just entering his prime.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
you forgot Posey. Maybe somebody can play the outfield. It’s hard to believe this team actually has this many legitimate options for the future. As longtime Giant’s fans, wonder what’s going to go wrong??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
As a follow long time Giants fan here is how it will go wrong...
1) Sabean will wait tell they get in the high minors with a track record.
2)The Giants will be with in 8 games of 500 in June.
3) Sabean will cash in those untrustworthy prospects for 2-3 scrub vets.
4) Scrub Vets either stink up the joint or do little for the team past September.
5)…
6) Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
As good as AnVil appears to be, you just can’t count on an 18 year old to make his way through the system and be an All Star. Dude hasn’t seen a single pitch above Low A yet. I’m excited too, but if the Giants’ are serious about Tex, they shouldn’t let AnVil stand in the way.
BTW, I don’t want to see them sign Tex, I just think it’s important to temper expectations of prospects.
I would rather have a problem of what to do with too many talented 1st/3rd basemen than not having any in the first place.
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 28, 2008 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
What had your fill of dreck at the corner infield spots? But this decade aint over yet!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Big paper bags of dreck on fire
Sergio Romo will gladly hand you a bench to sit on / GIANTSPACE™ / Adopted brother of the AnVil
by SoFa King Mike on Oct 28, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I also get aroused thinking about how well Texiera hits from both sides of the plate. With all the talk about how LH hitters get killed here at home, it would be supremely awesome to have a guy at 1B who’s:
- Gonna get his fair share of ABs from the right side
- Gonna be a threat no matter who’s pitching
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
+109 Marklar
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
The main question is whether it is
better for this team to make its big offseason FA play for CC or Tex? Either of them are going to cost you at least 5 if not 6 years at $20million/yr or more in the case of CC. Doing this for CC with Zito sucking down major cash in the rotation now and bills due for the young trio over the horizon makes this tough. And doing this for Tex with Rowand sucking down $12 million for the next four years in CF with his defense makes that tough.
Ideally, they’d find a way to move Rowand’s long-term salary commitment this offseason and let Winn and Molina play out the end of their good-value contracts in 2009, thereby making it possible for them to consider a big FA play like Tex. But I don’t think Tex or any Top-Tier FA would come here no matter what cash was put on the table.
NO, we're not trading Matt Cain! What's that you say? We are? Armageddon is upon us!
i like this kool aid.
Even if we don’t get a shiny big named free agent this off season form it!
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Jacobs/Aurilia or Josh Phelps platoon?
He really didn’t hit lefties this year: .218/.248/.429 .
But his line away from FLA was pretty sweet: .258/.325/.547
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
Tony Batista levels of sweetness, except with shitty defense at first.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
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