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Bill James and the 2009 San Francisco Giants, Part II

And lo, after Bill James begat the hitter projections, a bright light emanated from his abacus, and, yea, he came forth verily with the pitcher projections for 2009. On the third projection day, he rested. Thou who art beho…

…wait a sec…

  • Matt Cain with a winning record?
  • Tim Lincecum with an ERA over 3.00?
  • Barry Zito, a productive, worthwhile, and competent member of the rotation?

Thus saith James, he who holds dominion over a vast statistical kingdom. The whispering grows among the parish: Blasphemer! Blasphemer! Though if this silver-keyboarded devil be correct, the fruits of the starting rotation would be bountiful.

I’m not sure if I buy it, but I’ll hope for it. The front four of the Giants rotation all project to have ERAs under 4.00. And that’s even before the Giants sign CC Sabathia!!!!!fourthsongonandjusticeforall!! The bullpen…less good news, though the projections doesn’t include mustachioed master of movement, Sergio Romo, and most of the worst offenders have already been excised from the roster.

One of the oddest things, though, is that the walk rates of the pitchers prone to walking people don’t change much, yet Jonathan Sanchez, Brian Wilson, and Barry Zito are projected to allow far fewer runs. Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum stagnate (with Lincecum showing a little regression) which wouldn’t be the worst news in the world.

Comment starter: Too optimistic? Too pessimistic?

Comment 44 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Overall I think this is too optimistic. I do not see Zito anywhere near the numbers Bill projects.

I do agree with the slight regression from Lincecum. I just can’t see another season like ’08 from Tim.

by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 23, 2008 11:18 AM PDT reply actions  

Mostly too optimistic

Especially Zito. I think he’s pretty right on with Cain, Lincecum and Sanchez, although I doubt lincecum goes 240

by NeifiChicken on Oct 23, 2008 11:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Too optimistic

Especially for Sanchez and Zito. I just don’t see both dropping their ERAs by over a point.

Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!

by j14 on Oct 23, 2008 11:24 AM PDT reply actions  

But Zito is working out with Brian Wilson in the offseason! Eating eight egg omelettes and stuff!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 23, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Zito's new schedule

20 hours of chasing tail, 1 hour of working out, 3 hours of sleep

Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.

by ResDog on Oct 23, 2008 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Innings

If Sanchez only pitches 132 innings like is being projected, then I could definitely buy 3.90 easy. I could buy it anyway. But definitely if he only goes 132.

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.

by thehavenot on Oct 23, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I also think optimistic. I’d be pretty damn enthused if that’s how the season turned out for our starters, especially for Sanchez. As for our bullpen, I’m not even sure he’s got that many of the players right. 57 innings from Hennessey? And where’s Romo?

by neurofarm on Oct 23, 2008 11:30 AM PDT reply actions  

According to Bill James, the Giants are ready to contend NOW!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 23, 2008 11:31 AM PDT reply actions  

haha, what’s sad is that even with James optimism, I’m not sure that’s ture

by NeifiChicken on Oct 23, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Old man James stopped taking his brain medication.

/wanders out into the middle of the room naked

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 23, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Too optimistic

Especially for Tyler Walker.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.

by groug on Oct 23, 2008 11:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Uhhh

These look wrong. I guess a bunch of Zito’s walks are magically going to turn into strikeouts. That’s how it works. It’s science.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 23, 2008 11:53 AM PDT reply actions  

I’ve already addressed this. He’s going to work out with Brian Wilson this offseason.

I can’t wait till Spring Training when Zito [learns a new pitch/fixes a mechanical flaw/adds 10lbs of muscle] and he’ll be really excited to [win more games/have a bounce back year/model more designer jeans] and everyone will be happy!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 23, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I smell sitcom

Pious, religious man. Laid back, hippy, surfer. Wacky hijinks are sure to ensue.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 23, 2008 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, and one sucks and the other saves.

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Oct 23, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jesus & Me!

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and the chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby.

by Mike Hawk on Oct 23, 2008 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, anyone know how to format tables and such here? I want to do a quick look at Zito using StatCorner’s data, but I don’t know how to make it readable.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 23, 2008 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I saw the 272 K for Lincecum first

Then saw the 240 IP. Last time I think James made a projection like this it was for Rich Hill. Better not go down the same road imo.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's or Golden State Warriors? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's and Golden Stat Hoops

by iamawesomer on Oct 23, 2008 11:59 AM PDT reply actions  

I do enjoy a good Metallica reference

I guess I just don’t see as much regression in Lincecum as everyone else does. whatever he loses in luck, he’ll make up for in experience/knowledge of the league, etc. He’s still young and has not peaked yet. Not sure how you’d quantify that, but he won’t have an ERA over 3.00.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 23, 2008 12:12 PM PDT reply actions  

STRIKE!

James predicts us to have a record of 69-70.

Although I guess if CC comes in and goes 21-2…

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Oct 23, 2008 12:18 PM PDT reply actions  

srsly

You can’t really judge Lincecums’ era prediction without seeing how he predicts the the other ERA leaders. I actually think 3.00 is pretty close, and actually better than he will get from the other projection systems.

Let us not forget his xFIP was 3.37.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Oct 23, 2008 12:22 PM PDT reply actions  

I’d say track 7 is a better indication of the fanbase at this point.

STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.

by UnleashTheGore on Oct 23, 2008 12:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Track 6 describes Sabean, I think

Catcher are base running. Hitters are offense.

by thehavenot on Oct 23, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brian Wilson saves 46 games

we’ll win at least 46 next year!!

Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.

by theghostofjasonellison on Oct 23, 2008 1:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Not if we trade Caincecum.

proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..

by Azmanz on Oct 23, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too Pessimistic

Lincecum will go 32-0 with a 0.00 ERA. Bill James is a clear Dodger fan.

Section 314 FTW!

by KingofDucks1987 on Oct 23, 2008 1:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Timmy will only start 32 games?

You’re the pessimistic one.

proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..

by Azmanz on Oct 23, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

subtract walker, correia, hennessy, taschner
add lowry, hinshaw, romo, FA RP
=
a little pessimistic

& if giants club 135 HRs as predicted in Part 1 our 5 starters might all have 10+ wins

by cazzuno on Oct 23, 2008 1:56 PM PDT reply actions  

One of the oddest things, though, is that the walk rates of the pitchers prone to walking people don’t change much, yet Jonathan Sanchez, Brian Wilson, and Barry Zito are projected to allow far fewer runs.

It’s not that odd, really, at least if you buy the DIPS theory. Sanchez, Wilson, and Zito all had ERA’s that were higher than their peripharles/fielding independant stats. For example:

Sanchez: ERA – 5.01, FIP – 4.09.
Wilson: ERA – 4.62, FIP – 3.93.
Zito: ERA – 5.15, FIP – 4.72.

I think the system is mainly expecting their ERA’s to regress, more than it expects actual improvment, though it could be a combination of the two.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Oct 23, 2008 2:58 PM PDT reply actions  

Waaaaay too optimistic.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 23, 2008 3:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I can’t see Lincecum losing as many as nine games.

"Just another ahahahaha... laugher."

by capnk on Oct 23, 2008 4:01 PM PDT reply actions  

Pessimistic when it comes to Lincecum

I doubt he’s gonna regress, especially not enough to put his ERA over 3. I think he’ll be better next year actually. The rest seems fair to me, although there’s never any certainty when it comes to Zito and same with Sanchez.

by boonitez on Oct 23, 2008 4:19 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree

Once Lincecum figured out his problems at the major league level in 2007, he had a 2.49 ERA the rest of the way, and then followed that up with a 2.62 ERA in all of 2008. The prediction system, being mechanical, is influenced by how poorly Lincecum pitched in May of 2007, and thus expects there to be a “rebound” to his 2007 “level” from his stellar 2008, but closer to 2008 than 2007, naturally.

Of course, we know that he probably won’t have a repeat of May 2007, and can then see that he’ll probably have another mid-2 ERA in 2009 most probably. He was too dominating from start to finish to expect anything else in 2009. I would still like to see the Giants keep his pitch total for the season below 3,500.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 23, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Using this logic....

technically…could you argue that Zito has “figured out” PBP, and we should expect more from him next year based on his improvement late this year?

Uncle Sabes...How much longer til we get there?

by NorCalGiant on Oct 26, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

just so you know how it goes

Zips projects CC Sabitha to have an ERA around 3.0 as well. His combined ERA (AL/NL) was 2.70 and his xFIP ERA was (estimating) about 3.25.

Furthermore, the projection can’t be fairly judged unless you know the projected LEAGUE ERA. NL as a whole had an ERA of 4.30. If the projection systems assume this will be more like 4.50, then everyones projection goes up (and see above for projections for Sanchez/Wilson/Zito)

Finally – in all cases you expect everyone to regress to the mean (which means Lincecum’s will go up and Zitos’s down)

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Oct 24, 2008 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Half of these guys

Won’t even be on the team next year (hopefully).

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and the chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby.

by Mike Hawk on Oct 23, 2008 4:40 PM PDT reply actions  

FYI

The Bill James pitching predictions aren’t even produced by Bill James (and probably not endorsed either).

He doesn’t think that pitching can be predicted but his partner in crime, er, business, er, co-author, John Dewan, asked if Bill would mind him giving it a shot, so he’s been putting the pitching predictions into the Bill James handbook every year now and I assume this is the continuation of that.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 23, 2008 4:43 PM PDT reply actions  

WTF!

How can they not have predictions for Hinshaw and Romo?!? They even have Pat Misch and Billy Sadler, and neither are sure things for the bullpen in 2009.

Also, given my comment above, it’s surprising they think Zito is going to return to his former form prior to the Giants, based on mechanical calculations.

In any case, I think Zito is at least on the right track, he was striking out batters like it was 2003-4, something he hasn’t done, even for the A’s, since then. There were also multi-game sequences that he did this year that he had not done since that period. The key, obviously, to him doing well in 2009 is him keeping this high K-rate going for a full season. If he can, he can get his ERA back in the mid-3 range he had with the A’s; if not, it could be another sad season for him.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 23, 2008 4:56 PM PDT reply actions  

His ERA's are impossible

At l;east 5 of them are mathematically impossible given the innings pitched

by NeifiChicken on Oct 23, 2008 6:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Tim

Tim’s def. going to have an even better season in 09 then he did in 08. i smell a lot of Giant victories next year :]

[if you leave me yo leavin tha best so u gunna have ta settle for less.]

by krystle_katastrophe on Oct 24, 2008 9:59 AM PDT reply actions  

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