Manny being Manny
by Grant Brisbee on Oct 21, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
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PrintOn August 15th, Emmanuel Burriss came in on a double switch, and struck out in his only at-bat. His year-to-date line was .247/.310/.282. He had started only six games in July -- an inexcusable waste of development time -- and he looked like a player who was rushed to a major league bench after 62 at-bats above A-ball, which is exactly what he was. You couldn't blame the kid, but it was clear that he needed to go back to AAA, if not AA.
With that taken care of, the Giants could focus on their most important offseason priority: finding a shortstop of the future. Oh, there were several unappreciated shortstops to talk about on August 16th. For example, I ordered a pamphlet from Pueblo, Colorado, and it gave a lot of great information on Ben Zobrist. The first thing I noti...
...and then Burriss hit .371/.463/.443 over his last 84 plate appearances. His end-of-season line was .283/.357/.329, which is a perfectly acceptable line for a shortstop. The average shortstop in the NL hit .276/.334/.404, so while Burriss's utter lack of power is bad even for a shortstop, his on-base percentage and speed helped to bring him closer to the middle of the pack. His defense was surprisingly smooth, too. I don't have any doubts that he can remain at the position.
Now it's October 21st, and I'm almost fine with Burriss starting at short in 2009. Brian Sabean has basically given him the job, and that's just swell. It's one less position we need to fill, and....
...wait, am I really writing this because of an August hot streak that was comprised of less than 100 at-bats? Am I really so desperate for homegrown position players that I'm willing to ignore the possibility that starting Burriss next April is almost as mad as sitting him this July?
Kind of. I look at Burriss's almost-shiny .357 OBP and think, yeah, I can live with that. Then I go about my practiced offseason routine of ignoring the legitimate doubts building up in the back of my brain. But even if I wholly accept Burriss, it's lamentable that the Giants have one less position at which they can improve. The outfield is set -- crowded, even. Pablo Sandoval should get a bulk of the at-bats at first, pun definitely intended. So barring an unforeseen trade of Bengie Molina, Randy Winn, or Aaron Rowand, the Giants can only improve their offense with an acquisition of a second baseman and/or a third baseman if they eliminate any efforts to upgrade at short.
So I'm torn on Burriss. I don't want the Giants to spend money on a gimpy Rafael Furcal, and there's no sense in trading for an unproven guy like Ben Zobrist when Burriss didn't embarrass himself after being rushed. At the same time, though, I dread the possibility of Burriss completely flopping with the Giants having absolutely no backup plan. Burriss having a modicum of success is the worst thing that's happened to the Society of Opinionated Jackasses in some time. We've had emergency meetings about this and everything.
Open What to Do About Shortstop Thread.
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Now you’re getting off the Zobrist bandwagon? Now that he’s slugged .505 in the majors?
We absolutely need another shortstop. I expect Burriss to flop & flail in April, and it will suddenly become apparent that he needs some time in AAA. If he actually continues to hit, put him in the mix at second base — lord knows we need help there too.
Now you’re getting off the Zobrist bandwagon? Now that he’s slugged .505 in the majors?
Not really. But I’m even more suspicious of that SLG than I am of Burriss’s OBP. Maybe Zobrist bulked up to add power…and maybe that means he isn’t a valid option at short any more. Dunno. But it was so, so out of line with the rest of his professional career.
by Grant Brisbee on Oct 21, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I presume all the home runs were fluky, but the rest of his professional career tells us he ought to be able to keep up a .360 obp.
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by Josh from Hollywood on Oct 21, 2008 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions
For now, Manny is the guy
but obviously I think we need to try and do better. In truth, I think on a great team Manny should be nothing more than a good guy to have off the bench that can PR, fill in on defense, and draw a walk
i think it’s way too early in his career to pigeonhole him like that. sure, there’s the chance he doesn’t improve, or even regresses. but given that he’s only 23 and was rushed to the majors, i think it’s much more likely that he improves on his overall line from last year. If he can eventually be a guy with a .380 or better OBP, I think he’d be a very nice part of a contending team.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Oct 21, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd be happy with his line last year...
but I’m willing to bet his OBP is worse in 2009. Burris will never post a .380 OBP unless he plans on hitting over .320 or something, because he is probably a weaker power threat than Juan Pierre
by NeifiChicken on Oct 21, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
it's not like we let Ochoa walk
o wait, i think we let Ochoa walk off the 40 man roster. I sure hope there is a handshake deal with him for a minor league invite. Beyond that there’s Bocock. Dark horse, Julio Cordido. Or Deivi Cruz.
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Deivi Cruz.
Savage Warrior.
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I think this offseason..
I’d try to acquire a 3B and either a 2B or SS. Whoever is acquired then Burriss slides over to the other. I’d prefer picking up a SS, then if Burriss fails and he has to be sent back down, Frandsen can take over. We’ve got a few options at 2B and fewer at 3b, but at SS basically we have Burriss.
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I agree with the fat, fish-breath pinniped.
I’m also perhaps a little less worried about Manny than others because it looked to me like he just kept getting better and better.
Zooperstars, they quack me up!
Frankly Manny might be pretty good. He could crash and burn next year and still end up pretty good. In 2-4 years from now. All I ask is he plays next year and does not sit.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yea.
I’d say either way play him, either at the ML level (to start the year hopefully) or at the minor league level if he crashes in the majors.
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If I thought Boulder Skull wouldn’t be a jack arse about using him every freaking out to block playing time for the most effective use of the young ones I would be in favor small commitment (read Richie Aurilia level or less) to this 29 year old. Plays good D at SS and has played 3rd and 2nd. His bat is a bit soft but he is healthily can could by used in which ever spot is having a melt down or create more completion at 2nd or third this coming season. However I have no faith he would be viewed as such by management so forget I mentioned him.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
I don’t expect a wizard. Just a better pain sponge tell others take the position away from him. He is under 33 so It might be possible he would have to compete to keep his playing time in Sabean Era Giant’s team. Who am I kidding. He is a Veteran. They can never lose playing time with out prolonged DL stints.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think..
I’d take him over even a slumping Burriss.
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But I bet you would take him over a slumping Velez or sagging Joe Castle The Sequel at third. No?
I also think its very possible Burris had a stretch or two next season were he is very Bocokian. I wouldn’t say that should be enough to permanently bench him. But I could see were it might merit him getting something to get his head back together again.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Velez?
Yes, but I’d take Frandsen over him anyways.
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If Frandsen is healthy enough and can handle the work load then sure I agree.
Its backs to the we don’t know factor. Its the same reason Counsell or Aurilia makes some since for this squad in ’09 & ’10. Save Izturius is younger can should be able to handle the middle infield spots for more then 2 weeks if such a need arises.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Counsell can still handle middle infield
His D was always very good.
Also, it really doesn’t matter if you’re playing the likes of Cesar Izturis, or Counsell, instead of Castillo or Velez at 3b. Either way, if you’re playing Castillo, or Izturis at 3b, you’re fucked in the ear with a rusty spork. Crap, is still crap, even if it’s maybe slightly better crap. Izturis MUST play SS for him to be worth considering.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
We partially agree
The whole positive value of any of these guys ( Izturis, Cora, Counsell etc) is that he replace Ochoa’s slot on the 25. Which in turn would prevent , or at least dramatically slow down, the rate of single A call ups. As WilRiv says later on a "Plan B". I like to call it a better pain sponge. The moment one of us, Bochy or the front office looks at any of these guys as Plan A before Flag Day is the moment we begin getting f*&%ed in the ear with a rusty spork.
And just for the record I am not be against considering Counsell for this role at all. I just kind of think the Brewers will keep him. I am not sure I want a count of a player of his age possibly playing 500+ innings the next 2 years and who seems to be having issues vs. LHP. But I definitely wouldn’t rule it out.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
hells no
his best OPS+ ever was 88, and his career average is 67
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by stealth snail on Oct 21, 2008 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m perfectly happy to give shortstop to Burriss. Yeah, he may well flop. But the team’s in the position where that’s not really the end of the world. In fact, giving young players the chance to flop is exactly what the team should be doing. Besides, there are more pressing needs – I’d rank shortstop as a need below third base, below second base, below the bullpen, and below the back end of the starting rotation.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
Wow. I would place SS below 3rd ( at lest tell the hemorrhaging stops there) but above the others in need. I agree there is not much out there to go get at 3rd or SS at this point though . Not real wild about the relievers to had either so… bargain bin bottom of the rotation starters for 500 Please.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
In the NL, the Giants had the worst production of any team at several positions. Those being: 1B, SS, and 3B.
1B should improve if Pablo gets the majority of playing time (and he doesn’t swing himself back to the minors). SS should be a little better, though, I’m not sure by how much.
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I wonder how 2B production rated after Durham was traded. Actually, probably not too badly – Velez did better than expected.
Still, my position on second base a few weeks ago was as follows: I don’t trust Frandsen’s health (and I think he’s a backup anyway), Velez’s consistency, Ochoa’s general competence, or the team’s willingness to actually play Denker. Of course, folks said that if Frandsen was hurt and Velez and Ochoa flopped, the team would presumably play Denker – but apparently not!
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
2B was still below average, but it wasn’t the worst in the NL according to Chris Dial’s new OPD numbers. The second basemen on the Giants combined for -11.6 runs below average. The majority of that was from Velez who scored a -15 runs below average at 2B.
The Padres (-26.1 runs), Nationals (-19.3 runs), and the Pirates (-17.7 runs) all had worse production from their 2B positions.
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In any case, I’d still argue 2B is a bigger need in the short term than SS. It’s probably just my own bias, but I have more faith in Burriss than I do in Frandsen/Velez.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
I get you. I just figure, in general, a player that doesn’t quite cut it at SS or 3rd can become a 2nd base candidate. Thanks for spelling it out.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
ditto… we have one pretty decent prospect at short, a few meh prospects at 2b. I’ll take quality over quantity.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Oct 21, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
So..
Any idea how we would have stacked up against other teams without Durham? Taking the 2B we had playing and extrapolating out over the whole season using the current ratios to 162 games? (I think I just said the same thing about 8 times in that sentence.)
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We would have been worse without Durham. He only added 1.6 runs to the 2B position in 87 games. Velez added -15 runs to the Giants in his time over 98 total games, so if you Velez was the starter from the beginning, he might have been worth -25 to -30 runs overall. That could have pushed us past the Padres for worst in the league.
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That is kind of an inherently poor extrapolation, however
It assumes that Velez would have performed at his median level for those extra AB’s. However, Velez demonstrated essentially two polar extremes in offensive production in his two extended playing opportunities.
Hence, that median level is not very representative.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Oct 21, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Why not?
If something performs great and terrible, then average is the average.
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Yeah, but does that mean you can expect them to perform average in the future?
Or great, or terrible?
You don’t know.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Oct 22, 2008 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure, if you want to make the argument that his 2nd half “success” that was fueled by his BABIP being .350+ is a better representative of his offensive abilities, I won’t try to stop you. I won’t believe you though.
Velez was -10 runs on defense and -5 runs on offense for a total of -15 runs. He would still be -20 runs by defense alone if you want to bump his production at 2B up to average, which is very generous, to say the least.
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My point is just that drawing an "average" from two extreme outliers is pretty useless.
Clearly, Velez is not as good as his second go around, nor is he as poor as his first. Just averaging the two is not a good way to make an approximation of his true talent level.
One could make the same argument for his defense, but I’m not going to go there.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Oct 22, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Mind me asking to see that argument on his "D"?
I have always been of the mind if a players natural skills have not started to slip yet ( usually in their 30’s) and was willing to work hard their "d" gets better. At least to a point. Dr. Strange Glove candidates will never become gold glovers but they can get a lot closer to decent.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
One could make the same argument for his defense, but I’m not going to go there.
Yeah, it’s pretty hard to make an argument for Velez’s defense when:
A) It’s horrible
B) It’s been scouted as horrible
C) STATS tell us it’s horrible
If, in your premise, we make Velez an average offensive 2B — which I think even you would admit is stretching it — then he could be around -15 to -20 runs just on defense alone.
Calling him a total -25 player isn’t a stretch at all over a full season.
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well said, FWF.
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Unless you are willing to part with a starting pitcher,
we aren’t going to get a solid everyday SS at this time who makes it worth bypassing Manny. So unless they can part with Sanchez, Burriss should get the job at least for 2009 by default. I agree with WalrusMan that Sabean should focus on getting immediate power help at 3B and 2B if he can, and let Burriss have SS until we see what we have in Crawford or even Gillaspie.
Then again, Sabean could trade Cain and a minor leaguer for Fielder and Hardy, and let Pablo have 3B and Burriss/Frandsen handle 2B.
//ducks below desk//
NO, we're not trading Matt Cain! What's that you say? We are? Armageddon is upon us!
I’m fine with Burriss.
Just whatever you do, Giants, no more Ochoa or Vizquel.
kthnx.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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NO!
You did it wrong, you didn’t say bye, now Sabean doesn’t really believe you. 2009 will always go down as the year xanthan ruined by making Sabean decide to go with Vizquel at SS and Ochoa at 2B.
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Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Velez at First!!!! Winn at third and you have the best infield ever
I see the future, and it is Pablo
From Cots
If anyone was wondering ,FA SS’s in ’09. The * denotes a option on the player in question.
Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera CWS
Alex Cintron CWS
Alex Cora BOS
Craig Counsell * MIL
Adam Everett MIN
Rafael Furcal LAD
Cesar Izturis STL
Ramon Martinez LAD
Edgar Renteria * DET
Juan Uribe CWS
I wonder how cheap Everett might come? And if he can ever get healthy again.
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I’m pretty sure Renteria’s option was already declined.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
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Even if Everett is healthy, I don’t see how he’d be better than Burriss. To be fair, I’m not all that familiar with his defensive skills, but his offensive numbers don’t really inspire devotion.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
Everett’s valued is all tied up in his defense. He’s a career: .246/.298/.355 hitter which is pretty bad. But when he’s healthy, he’s probably worth around 2 wins on defense. I think his health is a big question.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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Good to know. When it comes to non-Giants, I’m definitely biased in favor of offense over defense – it’s a lot easier to work out a player’s offensive abilities than defensive if you’re not a stats geek.
No offense to those of you who are stats geeks, mind you. I’m just terrible at math. Only got to Algebra II and wasn’t good at that.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
Algebra II
(x – 6)(x + 3) = x2 – 6x + 3x – 18 = x2 – 3x – 18. No problem; that’s Bochy’s cap measurements, right?
Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.
You know..
If I weren’t so lazy I’d try to solve that for x.
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That's not an equation
just simplifying the expression (x-6)(x+3), thus x can be all real number.
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
Couldn't you make it equal zero?
That’d make WalrusMan so very happy.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
but he's declined b/c of aging and injury, no?
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly
He’s been injured/bad for the last couple of years. I’m a little tempted by his ’06 season, but he does have injury concerns.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
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yeah
i’m not sure he’s even a 1 WAR guy anymore, since his defense has slipped and he’s a supermassiveOchoalike black hole int he lineup. have you run anything on him?
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly
He broke his leg in 2007.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
His defensive numbers are otherworldly. He has a case for being the best defensive player who ever lived.
That said, I think he’s done. He was always a terrible hitter, but in the last few years he has descended to like .235/.280/.330. And he’s had injuries, and at 32 his fielding is probably slipping as well.
His defensive numbers are otherworldly
His 2006 season is nuts, he was about +30 runs above average at SS. Amazing.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
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His fielding might have slipped
but more due to the broken leg in 2007, than age. Right up till that injury, his D was still phenomenal.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I tend to think the ChiSox will resign Uribe. He finished the season playing third and he would be good insurance in case Fields is not up to snuff.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
That and he’s probably not a SS anymore. He’s gained a bunch of weight and was a below average defender at the position in 2007, he only played 15 innings there this year.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
and he had facial hair that looks like it was stolen from a troll.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
In fact this guy might be spotting Uribes next one.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmm..
I’ll take Craig Counsell if he isn’t picked up. He’s always been a great player to me.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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Think I’d rather they get Branyan. Both has issues with LHP and last couple years the bulk of Council’s play time has been at 3rd.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
by daveinexile on Oct 21, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow..
I thought this would get flamed and flamed. I even made an image to make sure you guys knew I was serious.
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OT
Is your screen name supposed to be a combination of eggman and walrus (goo goo ga joob)?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Not particularly..
I just came up with WalrusMan from the song probably 7-8 years ago and have had it ever since.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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The Adventures of Walrusman!
I thought it was a superhero.
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 21, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Would its content be work place freindly?
I’ll take my answer off the air.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Good post.
I’m pretty bearish on Manny, as there’s just no history of guys with that little power being viable offensive players. His OBP was good, but I just don’t think he can sustain it — why would you ever bother walking a guy who can’t muster more than a single anyway? Juan Pierre rarely walks, and even he has more power than Manny. Manny seems credible defensively, but no better. Even given the absurd scarcity of good shortstops, the package of an average-fielding shortstop who can’t reach second base from home plate is not a good one.
I certainly do think the Giants should make a play for J.J. Hardy, no matter how overdiscussed that’s been of late, and I’m not totally against dipping a toe in the Furcal market, though certainly caution would be wise there. Failing those upgrades, sure, play him, but the key is for the team to not fall in love with Manny if he doesn’t develop further. If he hits an empty .280 and doesn’t excel in the field, whatever fun moments and wins he contributes to, whatever young gamerness he exudes, whatever counterpoint to our recent veteran overdoses he provides, will be beside the point.. A young likable player who is not good enough is still not good enough, and I hope the Giants — and the fans — will be able to realize that.
I’m pretty bearish on Manny, as there’s just no history of guys with that little power being viable offensive players.
Omar Vizquel in his prime is who I think of.
by Grant Brisbee on Oct 21, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Vizquel is a good best-case scenario for Burriss – offensively, anyway. Burriss won’t have Vizquel’s glove, but he could still be good enough to be solid.
On the other hand, he could turn out to be Brad Wellman. But given the overall state of the team, I don’t mind finding out.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
It’s a good comparison, and while Omar was never really more than marginally useful at the plate, if Burriss could reach peak-Vizquel levels, that’d be dandy. Vizquel certainly couldn’t hit, for power or anything else, when he first came up, so it’s by no means impossible that Burriss could get there.
It’s just creepy to me that in 240 at-bats, Burriss only got seven doubles and triples… you’d think speed alone would’ve gotten him more than that. Vizquel and Pierre both had XBH%s that horrible when they were very young, but they’re the only two recent players I can think of who survived that lack of pop (and, tellingly, neither ever actually became good offensively).
Omar Vizquel’s a possible offensive career path for Manny, but Joey Gathright’s equally possible… there’s definitely cause for worry. If anything, I think Manny’s best hope for viability might be improvement in the field, not at the plate… he’s not likely to do much better than this offensively.
Ozzie Smith.
Not saying that Burris could ever become a Smith type player.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
my support for burriss at shortstop is wholly about my non-support for burriss at second. sabean throwing him into the mix at 2nd was example #3207 showing he no longer knows how to build a baseball team.
he’s not ready for a full-time gig, but he almost deserves a shot. i think that’s what reduilding is all about. hurray for quasi-prospects!
when he slumps for 120 appearances, loses favor, and never gets another legit shot, shame on the giants. shame!
Brian Sabean figures that if he buys enough bottles, one of them is bound to have lightning in it.
Burriss in 315 innings at SS was a -7. That’s Jeter-esque. At second base (282 innings), he was a +5.
I know it’s a small sample size, but the scouts that thought he’d be better suited for second base might have been on to something.
Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.
I think it’s way too small of a sample to say anything at all. And is that -7 plays or runs? In general, I’ve always heard that you should have about 2 years of defensive data before making any conclusions on a player.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
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And not that it matters, because of sample size, but I’ve been looking at Chris Dial’s OPD numbers a lot today and his ZR has Burriss as 1.6 runs above average for SS.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
Gotcha, figured you were using +/- but I wasn’t sure.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball
What, no Jose Vizcaino?
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Oct 21, 2008 12:44 PM PDT reply actions
There is no option more sensible than Burris. He is cheap, only 23 and wasn’t even projected to be here last year. Given that, I am impressed with his performance. The Giants should not consider acquiring a “starting shortstop” of the ilk of Cabrera or the like and pay several millions of dollars when they have a kid like Burris to play for them. They are not so close to serious championship contention that they should acquire a top free agent. Should they get a little insurance in case Burris is hurt or fails? Absolutely. But Sabean did the right thing and said Burris was the top SS on the depth chart next year.
I would actually like to see that.
#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
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Manny being other Manny?
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com. It's not being updated right now. Hope for more at your own risk.
What is Plan B?
Last season Sabean picked Vizquel to be his starting SS early in the process and had no Plan B. Learn from history, Sabean.
If Giants go into 2009 with an IF of:
Ishikawa-Frandsen-Burriss-Sandoval with a side order of Baron Pickov von Ironglove, they are going to be a very bad team again. They might win a few more games than 08, but probably fewer than they overplayed their pythags.
On the plus side – none of those guys (ditto OF) are wretchedly bad, so upgrading big at one IF position (Beltre, Furcal, Texiera) puts us sniffing .500 and 2 makes us neigh-contenders. (I assume the bullpen becomes magically adequate)
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
I’ve got real mixed feelings about Burriss. If Sabean empties half the farm system to bring in Adrian Beltre and Dan Uggla, then we probably want a steadier player at short to help us compete.
But, hell, if the team is going to remain in neutral and wait for more kids to develop, then I’ve got no problem with Burriss taking a shot at the job. He’s fun, and he might surprise us. I just wouldn’t count on it.
Manny
What keeps me hopeful about Burris is that his numbers improved as the season went on, instead of Bowkering his way through September after the league got a book on him
I think Burriss is the archetypal default option for SS next year. He’s the sort of player who’s young & worth giving a shot, so we certainly shouldn’t spend lots of money on an average player, or waste time with a stopgap over him. He’s also got question marks & a limited upside so he shouldn’t stop us looking for a real upgrade & good player if one’s available.
In other words, if Burriss is the starting shortstop next year then that’s fine by me, but also, if we’re able to make a real upgrade & go with someone else, i’m equally fine.
Proud owner of the most boring Username! Alex Hinshaw: Now showing in a bullpen near you!
The entire IF...
…needs to be upgraded. Badly.
If anything of merit (young player, capable D, can actually hit ML pitching) comes along, we should seriously consider it. We need ML players everywhere in the IF and shouldn’t restrict our thinking because we have young promising players at a given position (“young, promising” here is translated to mean: someone who has serious warts, but whom we can conceive of becoming league average or getting us closer to league average, at the position).
Find players. Move our remaining young guys around them to fill in the gaps. None of the young guys we’re considering should be locked into a single position because we know they’ll be a stud there – not Burriss, not Velez, not Frandsen, not Ishikawa, not Bowker, not Schierholtz. The only possible exception is Sandoval at Catcher, if you believe he can handle it.
Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...
I am not understanding the Sandoval at C doubts
I don’t seem to recall him embarrassing himself back there. Did he look seriously bad and I just missed it?
Then again, I have trouble remembering my name in the morning…
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 22, 2008 8:11 AM PDT reply actions
bigger problem
thats 1/3 of our lineup that we are basing on two months of work…
August/September #‘s
1b sandoval -’08 Aug/Sept 145AB .345BA
2b fransden – ‘07 Sept 73AB .370BA
2b velez – ’08 Aug/Sept 125AB BA .328BA
SS burris -’08 Aug 87AB .299BA
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