McCovey Chronicles: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: Smoltz leaning toward signing with Red Sox Bar-right-arrows

San Francisco Giants Offseason Outlook

Nia_1526_tiny by bbdbrandon on

Over at The Outsiders Look I am in the midst of a team-by-team series which looks at what I  would do if I were running a Major League franchise. A recent installment has me looking at the San Francisco Giants, a team that is shooting up baseball's team prospect list.

The 2009 season, in my opinion, should be similar to what the Indians were doing in 2006-essentially holding season long tryouts for the following year. While some of the stones have begun to fall into place, the Giants could use another season to ensure they have the right idea on the likes of Schierholtz and Sandoval.

Additionally, the 2009 season is a good chance for the Giants to take a shot at some Major Leaguers looking to rehab their images. Wily Mo Pena, is a player I advocate bringing aboard and allowing the still youthful slugger a fulltime gig.

Check out what I've written and let me know what you would do I you were running the Giants. Keep in mind, this is not what you expect the Giants to do, rather, what you would do. Also, keep the ideas reasonable (ie. no Ishikawa for Pujols+cash trades).

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

2 recs | Comment 282 comments

Read Related

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Fred Lewis?!?!

F___ Mike Marshall!!!

by NuschlerFace on Oct 20, 2008 10:16 AM PDT   0 recs

Clearly you’re from out of town since nobody here would consider benching fred lewis.

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Oct 20, 2008 10:17 AM PDT   0 recs

I would

I would consider benching Fred Lewis, who I believe will fall off in 2009 after very impressive results in 2008 — but certainly not for Wily Mo Pena!

by sharksrog on Oct 24, 2008 12:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your proposed lineup frightens and confuses me:

SS – Emmanuel Burriss
RF – Nate Schierholtz
CF – Aaron Rowand
C – Pablo Sandoval
3B – Hank Blalock
LF – Wily Mo Pena
1B – Travis Ishikawa
2B – Eugenio Velez

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 10:19 AM PDT   0 recs

How so?

Keep the following in mind:

The 2009 season, in my opinion, should be similar to what the Indians were doing in 2006-essentially holding season long tryouts for the following year. While some of the stones have begun to fall into place, the Giants could use another season to ensure they have the right idea on the likes of Schierholtz and Sandoval.

There’s a whole lot of potential with the lineup I put together. All low risk, high reward scenario’s.

By the way, I hate having Rowand in the lineup, without him, things would look much nicer.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 10:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not a believer in Velez and no way Texas doesn’t pick up Hank’s option after his resurgence. You don’t let a 120 OPS+ hitter walk over $6.2M.

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 10:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ll add, I’m fine with your premise of using the season as a way to audition Nate. I’m also fine with trading Winn and Molina if you can get good value for them, if you can’t do that, hold onto them and really try to trade them at the deadline*

*I hate making this argument because it seems over the last few years every crackpot internet poster dealing with the Giants makes this claim. Remember when people were saying that if only we COULD HANG ONTO RUSS ORTIZ AND DEAL HIM AT THE TRADING DEADLINE FOR VALUE! It doesn’t really fit with the Giants MO.

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 10:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yea...

You are right regarding Blalock.

Crede is a fine alternative.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If the Giants sign Crede, I will vomit with rage.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not a big fan of players who have serious injury problems and also aren’t very good.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nearly a .200 ISO

That would be the most fearsome hitter the Giants have.

The injury is somewhat concerning, but until I hear that he won’t be back for the 2009 season, I’ll give him a shot.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I ain’t a stats geek, but when I look at a guy who plays an offensive position, is 30+, and has only posted an OPS+ above 100 once in his career in a full season, I’m not that impressed.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nicely said.

If he was Super Cheap enough I, personally, could make an exception. Boras is his agent so we know how likely that is.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.

by daveinexile on Oct 20, 2008 12:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

okay then...

who do you bring in?

keep in mind, we’re talking a guy who would be willing to sign for 2 years and would presumably pack an OPS over .750.

ops+ is a terribly flawed statistic.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Is he really willing to sign for 2-years? His agent is Boras, who I’m sure will be gunning for the biggest deal available.

And, again, enlighten me to why OPS+ is flawed. I’ll take your answer off-air.

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 12:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The only reason most people say OPS+ is flawed is because it undervalues OBP… which would not help Crede in anyway so I don’t know.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

144 games

In the last two seasons…

You think Boras is stupid enough to try and get Crede to sign a long term deal? Boras is the KING of rehab contracts. Something Crede is in a perfect situation to sign.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not really impressed with any of the options, which is why I’m tempted by the idea of putting Sandoval at third for now, with Frandsen as a backup plan. Doesn’t look like that’s the direction Sabean’s going, though.

Adrian Beltre is probably the best of a bad set of options, depending on what the Mariners want in return.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beltre...

How is he superior to Crede?

Offensively it is essentially a wash, while the contract is ridiculous!

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beltre in away games, 2008: .292/.349/.512
Beltre in away games, 2005-2007: .287/.338/.503

Crede in away games, 2008: .237/.293/.382
Crede in away games, 2005-2007: .259/.295/.438

And Beltre’s more durable and it’s my impression he’s better defensively, though I’m not really sure of that.

This is starting to remind me of a conversation with GRM.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beltre – $11.5M in contract for 2009 + prospects

Crede – presumably half the price + 0 prospects

Durability

Yes, Beltre has it on that. However, you do know he just had fairly major surgery. Typically hands and shoulders don’t heal well.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Crede also is probably going to have to be a 2 or 3 year commitment, at least.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I truly Doubt that...

Boras isn’t stupid. Unless he was looking for a 2 or 3 year deal worth about $5M a year whether Crede was healthy or hurt. It doesn’t make sense for Boras to try and get Crede a 2 or 3 year deal, when the 2nd and 3rd years he will be being paid an amount reflective of a season in which he played 97 games.

GMs, for the most part, aren’t stupid.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

GMs, for the most part, aren’t stupid.

Let me introduce you to Mr. " I am Not an Idiot " Sabean.

Besdies which no one said you make the trade not matter what. It was just stipulated Beltre would be the best player availible.

As for cost figure Crede stays on the field for about 700 innings next season and should hit in the bottom of the order. Unless he is getting paid un 4MM why the hell should the Giants want him?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.

by daveinexile on Oct 20, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

haha

‘for the most part’
;)

I envision Crede signing a 1yr deal worth between $3.5M and $5.5M, with some incentives.

I also see him as a #5/6 hitter.

The Giants would want him predominantly to keep the seat warm.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 1:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

See below about him as a hart of the order hitter. If you expect him to be able to hit there and not be Pedroesque you are setting yourself up for hart ache.

I personally am not sure he can take the field for over 500 innings without breaking down completely. Bochy does not seem to believe in resting vet’s much or even pacing there use. But even at 4.5 MM ( split the difference) for about 700 innings why not say 9MM is worth about 1400 innings of keeping a seat warm with out tying up a second roster slot? Through 3 MM on top of that and you have guy that is legit middle of the order bat without having to tie up a third roster slot?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.

by daveinexile on Oct 20, 2008 1:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Guy #1: Beltre isn’t a better hitter than Crede!
Guy #2: Here’s some pretty strong evidence that he is.
Guy #3: … Beltre will probably cost more!

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Do us a favor, next time you want to come in and spam your site — which seems to be poorly put together — at least be nicer to talk to. We won’t think you’re as much of a dick if you do.

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry

I wasn’t meaning to be rude. I was legitimately wondering where the evidence was? Could you point out when I wasn’t talking nicely though?

Also, I’m not trying to ‘spam’ my site, I was truly trying to get the input from Giants fans.

Lastly, thanks for the bash. What can I do to make it better?

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Regardless of your feelings about OPS+ (and like I said, I ain’t a stats geek so I’m not qualified to argue about that), I think it’s pretty safe to say that, when you have two players, and one of them is better in almost every offensive category in away games than the other over the course of four seasons, that’s evidence that one is probably better than the other.

That was sort of a tortured sentence.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beltre v. Crede?

I’ll re-hash what I’ve been saying…

Beltre can be the superior hitter and fielder. I see the hitting as a wash, but clearly there is an argument in the other direction. The fielding is clearly in Beltre’s favor, but we’re not talking the difference between Derek Jeter and Omar Vizquel here.

We are also talking at nearly twice the cost. Yes Beltre will most likely net draft picks, but he is also going to ‘cost’ prospects to bring aboard. The trade off will most likely be a wash.

So, for twice the money the Giants can bring in a player that will be marginally superior-if really at all.

The big thing I see in Beltre’s favor is how he performed during his last contract year. If the Giants could squeeze that out of him, it might be the better move to make. Otherwise, I think we’re talking about a very similar player at twice the cost.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 1:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They’re not similar players at all, really, but the point about the cost it’ll take to acquire Beltre is a good one. If the cost is, in fact, prohibitive, I’d rather not acquire either of them, to be honest.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 1:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

agree to disagree

beltre’s 4yr WSP – .487
crede’s ‘healthy’ WSP – .493

there are statistics for each argument. i’m fine with your side of the argument. however, ‘if healthy’, i don’t see crede as being half the player beltre is.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And thus we come full circle, to the basic opinion I expressed in the first place.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So THAT’S what she said….

Am I mad, in a coma, or back in time? Whatever's happened, it's like I've landed on a different planet. Now, maybe if I can work out the reason, I can get home.

by Lyle on Oct 20, 2008 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s a one year deal, for starters, and it’s not ridiculous at all. With defense added in, it’s a very fair one year deal for Beltre.

Why not take a look at this spreadsheet by Chris Dial, for example, measuring the Offensive+Defensive contributions of every player in the AL.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p9BODtOllD4u0JrhtbUmILA&gid=1

Beltre: +9.1 runs on offense, +14.8 runs on defense, total: +23.89 runs (17th in the AL overall)
Crede: -2.2 runs on offense, +3.91 runs on defense, total: +1.67 runs

how is that in any way a “wash”? In addition, as Beltre is on only a one year deal and will certainly be a type A free agent after 2009, he would possibly net the Giants two picks.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

$11.5M isn't ridiculous?

How good would a 8 man offensive team of Adrian Beltre’s be? 60-70 wins? At a cost of $92M.

That’s not overpriced?

I’ll have to look into that document some more. According to THT’s win shares, Beltre is WAAAAAY outside the top 20. For VORP, he’s 49th.

I’d like to see how a statistic bumps him up that high.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 12:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

VORP blows man

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/fixing_vorp/

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly

by baetown415 on Oct 20, 2008 12:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

do you know if THT changed their Win Shares template yet?

because bossman studes said earlier this year they were working on changing the offensive component of their Win Shares from Runs Created to David Smyth’s BaseRuns

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly

by baetown415 on Oct 20, 2008 12:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Looking at win shares, the fact that they give Alex Gordon the same number of defensive win shares as Beltre leads me to believe they aren’t very good either.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

err...

that’s kinda like backward thinking mr. jponry….

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly

by baetown415 on Oct 20, 2008 12:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

lol “mr.”

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

WAIT UR A GIRL

NO WAY

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 12:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

oh

whoops

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly

by baetown415 on Oct 20, 2008 12:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We’ve established several times that all women on the internet are actually dudes. Also, women aren’t capable of understanding sports, so again, obviously a dude. Q.E.D.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 12:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We all know that

jponry, BVCE, TK, can of corn, Igotnothing = dudes.

Also, xanthan = spambot.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Oct 20, 2008 12:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

SPAMBOT

MY FAVORITE FLAVOR OF YABU IS (YABU) COME VISIT MY SITE FOR FREE RINGTONES

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 12:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Also, guys on the Internet never get girlfriends, let alone wives, so at the East Bay MCC gathering, xanthan and I obviously hired prostitutes to pretend to be our wives.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ok ok ok

my apologies

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

P.S. I Love Matt Cain. but only hetero-ly

by baetown415 on Oct 20, 2008 1:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How did you explain that to your mom when you left the basement?

There amass been plenty of articles written this spring about the stud shortstop Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum , as well as the fluid young outfielders and thirteen basemen Kevin Frandsen.
comics | art | Nattowear | McFAQ I & II

by Natto on Oct 20, 2008 1:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Um, shit.

I mean DELOREAN and I hired prostitutes to pretend to be our wives. Not xanthan and I.

Xanthan wasn’t there – and besides, everyone knows his wife is a computer, too. Perhaps some kind of Amiga.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My wife is a TANDY, get it right, pal.

And what you and Delorean do with hookers is none of our business!

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 1:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My family’s first computer was a Tandon, which is often confused with Tandy. So we’re practically related.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

lol at Tandon

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

To be fair, this was circa 1987.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I dunno..

No Pics no Proof man.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Oct 20, 2008 1:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I will MSPAINT some renditions of the day.

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No need, there's already video available

http://failblog.org/2008/10/20/best-man-fail/

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Holy crap, is that real?

#1 JUDY STEFFES FAN
My favorite pie is (name of pie flavor)
Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Oct 20, 2008 1:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We can only hope and pray that it is.

What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC

by jcb9 on Oct 20, 2008 1:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

jponry..

McC’s Maxwell Klinger.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Oct 20, 2008 1:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Anyway, my only point is that win shares aren’t very good at quantifying defense in general.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

is there...

any defensive metrics that are even close to 100% accurate? we are certainly getting closer, but i’m not sure we are at a point where we can close the book on them.

The internet's latest attempt at understanding the insides of baseball.

by bbdbrandon on Oct 20, 2008 1:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

no, but I think most play by play metrics are superior to ones that aren’t.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
PABLO SANDOVAL AM STEAL DEATH, DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

by jponry on Oct 20, 2008 1:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beat me to it

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Oct 20, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 r