How about Dan Uggla?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 11, 2008 11:27 AM PDT
Email
PrintI vaguely remember reading something here about the Marlins dumping/trading a lot of their players.
If this is true, do you think the Giants should take an interest in such a trade for Dan Uggla (if possible)?
I can picture a trade going something like this:
Jonathan Sanchez, Tim Alderson and Kevin Frandsen for Dan Uggla and a player to be named later (average MiL pitcher).
Yay or nay?
My sistah, is a prostitute.
Because she like to make money, high five!
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Absolutely I do.
Adopted Son: Brad Hennessey. Beloved for a stolen base much like Dave Roberts
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 11, 2008 11:37 AM PDT reply actions
win
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Oct 11, 2008 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you know if the Marlins are actually going to start trading away their players?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 11, 2008 12:05 PM PDT reply actions
That is far too much in my opinion to give up.
I could see a Sanchez plus mid level prospect but our 3rd/4th starter, a future #2, and our starting 2nd baseman. Too much. IMO.
The problem with the Sanchez plus mid level guy is that the fish would never make that trade. So… no I do not see this happening.
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
Didn’t you get the memo? Undersized, unathletic second-basemen with weak gloves and good minor-league numbers are WORTHLESS.
They had better just release him before he poisons the team.
by rotorueter on Oct 11, 2008 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Marlins
The Marlins have 17, yes 17, players who will be arbitration eligible. They will be a wheelin and dealin (no ending “g” in honor of sister sarah). Possibly SF can deal for Uggla (do not know what players to trade other than young ones) and have him return to 3b.
Tim Alderson alone would be more than I’d be willing to give up for Uggla.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
I agree with this agree
Get younger, not older. If you make a trade, get multiple players in return.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
Not me.
Unproven players for proven players is always a success in my eyes. Especially if the trade is young player for young player.
Although Andrew Miller still has some time to develop, I believe the Tigers got the better deal in that trade last year.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 11, 2008 1:44 PM PDT reply actions
Uggla will be 29 next year
Alderson will be 21.
Young player for young player.
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Oct 11, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
check that - 20
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Oct 11, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I wonder just how well off The Fish see their own minors? Considering you can’t trade draft picks the closest isto acquire a moderate to cheep vet slated to hit free agency in a year. That in turn makes we wonder just were they think Baker is as a catcher. Treanor should be Arbitration eligible as well so he could getting close 1MM next year. The Fish Spent 5 million last year on a LoDuca flier. Molina for 6 million and a high probability to qualify as a type "A" free agent might look real tempting to them both short term and long term.
I also have to wonder how much they think Willingham will get in arbitration. Nothing against Uggla just think the Fish will try and brake the bank with him.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
I think you meant “a moderate to cheep cheep vet.”
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 11, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
true true.
But 5 MM for a gamble on an old LoDucca shows Molina would have merit. Depending on were they think Baker is at in his development.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
That cheep cheep is too immoderate for daveinexile!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 11, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
The Nats were the idiots who signed LoDuca about 4 days before the Mitchell Report. The Marlins just picked up his carcass in August to play out the season.
cool.
Thanks for straightening me out there.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Let's see spread Chaos, Confusion and Anarchy here? Check. My work is complete. I’ll be moving on now.
Ahhh..
The old “Pedro Feliz is better than Miguel Cabrera” way of looking at things.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.
Wait..
Pedro Feliz is better than Miguel Cabrera?
Why wasn’t I informed of this?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 11, 2008 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
last year, Feliz was so good with the glove and Cabrera so bad that Offense + Defense left them about equivalent in terms of value.
That’s nice when it happens but it’s not something you can count on to happen again. Defensive play varies a lot from year-to-year and Miguel Cabrera can always slide over to first.
I don't care
If Cabrera just lays his glove on third base and has a martini, he’s 15 times the player Feliz is if you add up all his seasons.
according to this, Uggla wasn’t actuallytoo bad with the glove this year. Also, a while back Nate Silver included him in the top 50 guys to build a team around (I think he was in the low 40s). I think he’d be a worthwhile investment, but I’m not sure there’s a match. They’d want more than Sanchez, and probably wouldn’t take Randy Winn to fill it out.
The other guys I’d like to pry from the Fish are Kevin Gregg and Jeremy Hermida. No Jorge Cantu, Mike Jacobs, or Josh Willingham, please. Scott Olsen would be okay. Potential for a blockbuster here, for sure.
Stikeouts a problem with D. Uggla...
In 2006, Dan Uggla played in 154 games and had 123 strikeouts.
In 2007, Dan Uggla played in 159 games and had 167 strikeouts.
In 2008, Dan Uggla played in 146 games and had 171 strikeouts.
Yes, he hits around 30 home runs – in Florida (known as a hitter-friendly park), but recent history shows ATT Parks is more of a challenge for the long ball (see Rowand, Aaron).
Nor is he more than an average defensive 2B. He made 13 errors in 146 games last year – not bad, but hardly exceptional. For comparison, Eugenio Velez played 2B defensively at about the same rate – he made 7 errors in 69 games last year.
For these reasons, either Sanchez OR Alderson alone would be too much for Uggla.
If they would take Randy Winn, and a low level prosepct (someone like Adam Cowart), I would consider obtaining Uggla. Other wise, I stick with Velez/Frandsen.
Florida is a very pitcher friendly park. ATT is a neutral park, but it does suppress HR’s (although not as much as Florida’s park). Also, Sanchez OR Alderson would be way too little for Uggla, sorry.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
“Stikeouts a problem with D. Uggla.”
Strikeouts are no big deal to me if you keep your OBP up.
“Yes, he hits around 30 home runs – in Florida (known as a hitter-friendly park), but recent history shows ATT Parks is more of a challenge for the long ball (see Rowand, Aaron).”
It’s the RBI’s that mean more to me.
“Nor is he more than an average defensive 2B. He made 13 errors in 146 games last year – not bad, but hardly exceptional.”
Defense is overrated to me.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 12, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Ugh...
It’s the RBI’s that mean more to me.
Defense is overrated to me.
RBI’s are a terrible stat to use. Especially so if you’re trying to project future performance of a player. Also, defense is most certainly not overrated, it’s actually a bit underrated currently. This kind of thinking is why Ryan Howard is getting MVP considerations when he really, really shouldn’t.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
RBIs overrated???!!!?? Hell you say!
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
“RBI’s are a terrible stat to use.”
Really? Why?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 12, 2008 12:14 PM PDT reply actions
Use the reply button
Because they say more about the players getting on base in front of you than they do you. Look.
Preston Wilson led the league with 141rbi in 2003. Bonds drove in 90. Was Wilson better that year? Or was he given more chances to knock in runs?
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
Plus, it’s important to note that Bonds only had 390 AB’s that year.
When I stress my importance on RBI total, I usually compare it with AB total.
Bonds’ 90 RBI in 390 AB comparison is about as impressive as Wilson’s 141 RBI in 600 AB comparison.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 12, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
OK..comparasin. So Wilson was the better player. He had an RBI every ~4.25 AB. Bonds only had an RBI every ~4.33 AB. RBI is really meaningless.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.
Because they are too dependent on things that are out of the players control. Also, what camwoody said above.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Because if you take Albert Pujols and bat him 8th, he only gets 60.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 12, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
He would be the best 8th hitter in the league though.
Hmmm… you may be on to something here.
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
Yeah, Albert Pujols gets 110 RBI batting in front of the pitcher. I can’t believe I didn’t see it before!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 12, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember, Pujols plays for Tony LaRussa. If pujols is batting 8th, that means that he is pitching too. Can we expect Pujols to Hit 100 RBI’s and be a league average pitcher?
He better damn well do it if he wants to win an MVP award
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It's not that RBI's are meaningless
But you don’t really need them when analyzing a player.
Player X’s RBI’s are a function of:
A – Player X’s SLG.
B – The number of AB’s player X had.
C – The number of AB’s player X had with runners on base, and with runners in scoring position.
D – Player X’s performance in clutch situations.
A is cool.
B is OK when you’re looking at past performance, but is pretty much out of player X’s control, and has no predictive value.
C has nothing to do with player X.
D is OK when you’re looking at past performance, but usually has little to no predictive value.
So instead of looking at RBI’s, you can just look at SLG, and, if you insist, numbers in clutch situations (preferably career numbers – the sample size is too small over the course of one season).
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
ALSO
you can get RBIs for doing bad things:
bases loaded, no outs – you hit a sac fly. That’s a failure. You have decreased your expected runs in exchange for 1 run.
(unless all runners move up – or tied in the bottom of the 9th – then you are doing OK).
The classic internet example:
Player A walks
Player B hits into a FC, A out at 2nd.
Player C singles B to 3rd.
Played D hits a sac fly, scoring B.
“Now do you see why RBIs are misleading?”
D gets a RBI, B gets a R – both made outs, and did very little to help their team.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
“Use the reply button”
I have been.
“Because if you take Albert Pujols and bat him 8th, he only gets 60.”
“Preston Wilson led the league with 141rbi in 2003. Bonds drove in 90. Was Wilson better that year?”
He was almost as valuable as Bonds that year. Bonds’ walks and OBP were so amazing that you’d have to pick Bonds over Wilson.
But in clutch situations, I probably would go with Wilson, simply because they likely wouldn’t intentionally walk him as much.
“Because they are too dependent on things that are out of the players control. Also, what camwoody said above.”
Most things in baseball are very dependant on things that are outside an individual players’ control. But a player having a high RBI total every year is no accident.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 12, 2008 12:38 PM PDT reply actions
RBIs are important
However most on the internetz and fantasyland seem to love the walks more. Me likey runs. Runs scored, runs driven in. Runs not allowed by porous defense. Runs not allowed by good pitching.
The difference is liking something versus liking how that thing actually happens.
You know how you get runs? You get them by doing all the crap the people on the internetz and fantasyland value more. We value them more because you can’t have runs without them. Runs are always the final result. We’re interested in how you get there because if you’re not aware of that, then the rsult becomes far less repeatable.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Oct 12, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
Also, runs are the best way to judge a TEAM’S performance. But for individuals, RBIs and runs scored say at least as much about the ballpark, the rest of the lineup, and other factors as they do about the player himself.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
Look at it this way
Runs scored and runs batted in are really cool stats to see in a player’s line, and for a very casual observation of a player’s performance, it can be very helpful in determining if a player has had a successful career to this point in time.
But to actually evaluate a player’s performance, especially in regards to giving them a lot of money, runs scored and RBIs should not be included in the overall evaluation. And for fans like the ones that populate this website, who are more interested in knowing how a player truly plays the game, runs and RBIs are a wasteful stat.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
No you are not using the reply button.
See how when I use it my comment indents under yours.
Also, Preston Wilson was good that year but Bonds was far and away the better player.
Bonds OPS- 1.278
Wilson- .890
Bonds- 45hr
Wilson- 36
I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.
“No you are not using the reply button.”
Must have made a mistake.
“Also, Preston Wilson was good that year but Bonds was far and away the better player.”
I agree.
My only claim was that RBI’s are more important than homeruns. Which I still stand by.
People here have taken it to mean that I believe RBI’s are the most important stat, which I don’t believe is true.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Oct 12, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Yea..
I’d say that HR vs RBI I’d take HR as a stat, because that’s a definite run without having to have anyone on base. An RBI needs someone on base. You lead off with a HR you score a run. You can’t leaf off with an RBI.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Giant Whiteout I wouldn't go there if I were you.
I posted this in the other thread...
but for the sake of annoying everyone, here it is again
Dan Uggla has the weirdest splits ever.
vs Lefthanded .191, .310, .321
vs Righthanded pitchers .283, .377, .578
It is very rare that a righthanded batter will have such low numbers against lefthanded pitching, and often it can be improved with practice. That said, Uggla is no spring chicken (he’ll be 29 shortly) however he appears to be in a position to IMPROVE on his breakout year, based on his splits. Also, Uggla did struggle( OPS .788 to .960) in the cavernous Dolphin stadium. Moving to AT&T may actually boost his numbers, because it would actually give him a shorter distance to right field (385 to 365). Uggla, if it was for the right price, would make tremendous sense for this team.
the question is, what is the right price?
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