McCovey Chronicles: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: Want to help build SB Nation? We're hiring! Bar-right-arrows

Managers

Gob_bananaclaw_tiny by groug on

So, mostly because I'm not really in the mood right now to read the All Crede All The Time This Is KCBS thing that will inevitably last until spring training, I ask you, faithful McCovey Chronicles reader, what managers do you like?  What managers do you not like?  What do you notice about managers?  What do you think a manager does that gets largely ignored?  Here, in this diary, you can opine for Manny Acta or laugh at Jim Tracy.  You can acknowledge Joe Torre's calm demeanor but still think that in New York he was a product of his players.  You can say all my examples are stupid and I'm a stupid moron and I have a big butt and my butt smells and I like to kiss my own butt.

Just, for the love of God, give me something to think about besides Joe Crede at third base for the Giants.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs | Comment 60 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Re: Managers
i think the warriors are pretty darn awesome

by stealth snail on Jan 31, 2008 12:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I've always liked Nelly.

by kennv on Jan 31, 2008 8:53 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Britney's in the hospital , oh woe!
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2008 8:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I remember Nate Thurmond , tho.
That's how freaking old I am.
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2008 8:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

1967
Barry, Meschery, Thurmond, Rogers, Attles!
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Feb 1, 2008 5:16 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
You other players out o' you mind, messin' with me.

by biff pocoroba on Jan 31, 2008 11:09 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
There's always Dan Ortmeier at 1B, Molina batting cleanup, Roberts in left field...
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jan 31, 2008 12:04 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
dont forget durham blocking k-fran.  though that might lead to discussion about 3b, and that would lead to he who should not be named...

by sam23 on Jan 31, 2008 8:56 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I always like Jim Leyland. The only manager I've ever seen with balls big enough to smoke cigs in the dugout. Maybe Larussa used to also, but not sure if I'm remembering right.
*The Dealer*

by Armz Dealer on Jan 31, 2008 12:23 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
Thank you.

I'm so tired of people just making funny comments.  I wish that some of them would make an actual contrib...

Oh.

Never mind.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Jan 31, 2008 12:32 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

You're right...
Funny comments have taken over too much of this blog.

I'm going to make a serious diary as well.  We should discuss if Nate Schierholtz can play third base...

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Jan 31, 2008 8:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I agree: Leyland is far and away the greatest manager in the game right now.

by Scottsdale on Jan 31, 2008 8:29 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
matty stairs purportedly loved playing in the mexican leagues because he could smoke in the on-deck circle.

true story.

"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Feb 1, 2008 1:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Manny Acta is pretty much awesomeness personified.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jan 31, 2008 3:58 AM PST   0 recs

+1
smartest manager in the game.

also, bobby cox strikes me as a good guy

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 31, 2008 4:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: +1
"also, bobby cox strikes me as a good guy"

You mean, except for the drunkenly hitting his wife part?

by dmunk on Feb 2, 2008 12:07 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: +1
good baseball guy, not necessarily a good guy.

sorry, i should have made the distinction.

frankly, he's old and crotchety and kind of a dick.  I like that in a guy who's pretty much useless to a team.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Feb 2, 2008 5:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I always liked Bobby Cox. On TBS broadcasts (I know, Braves announcers, nggggh) it sounds like they have him mic'd up and you can hear him shouting from the dugout for most of the game.

I love his style of managing, the throwback style of "I'm a pissed off old guy and if you don't do things the way I want them then I'll bench you, no matter how good you are or how much you earn" like the time he benched Adam Laroche because he jogged down the line on a infield fly.

Something about crotchety old baseball men really does it for me. Wait, that sounds weird..

by xanthan on Jan 31, 2008 5:38 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
Oh, and I always thought that Bobby Valentine was pretty awesome, too. Especially the time when he got thrown out of a baseball game and returned to the dugout later wearing a disguise of a fake mustache and shades.

by xanthan on Jan 31, 2008 5:41 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I had forgotten the disguise.  Thanks for reminding me!

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 9:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Bobby V is endlessly entertaining. He had a blog while he was managing in Japan. I don't know if he's still writing it. They sure love Barentain there.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Feb 1, 2008 9:14 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Braves announcers
Hey!!  What's your problem with Skip and Chip and Pip and Just-the-Tip Caray?!?!
Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Jan 31, 2008 12:41 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Braves announcers
Homers personified.
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2008 8:03 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I see the d-backs out here more than I wish I did, and I don't get what makes Bob Melvin successful. Can anyone explain?

It seems like every time he goes out to argue a call that he acts like I did this morning when the biker cop came up to my window with the speeding citation--ready to take it in the rear and theres nothing I could do to change it.

Joe Torre, in my opinion, won in NY simply because he had superstars that wanted to be left alone, and he did exactly that. I can't wait for him to crash and burn in LA, just like he did in his previous stops.

by Fresburg on Jan 31, 2008 7:00 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
Living out in AZ I too see far more d-backs games then a man should have to. As much as I hate them, I will say that for the exception of leaving Valverde in way to long in that NLDS game, Melvin has an excellent handle on the use of his bullpen. Then again, it's not taht hard to manage a bullpen when you have Lyon, Pena & Valverde.

by Scottsdale on Jan 31, 2008 8:33 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Papa Grande!
(Throws up violently)
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Jan 31, 2008 8:05 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Wait, what does Rick Reuschel have to do with this?

by dmunk on Feb 2, 2008 12:08 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I like Joe Girardi. Aggressive, young, independent thinker. You know the things that got him kicked out of the Florida job :-) I had hoped there would be an opportunity for him to interview for the SF job when Alou left.

I also like Manny Acta. Another young, freethinking guy that the Giants did not even interview.

Lenn Sakata and Ron Wotus are other examples of the same types of managers.

Players seemed to love each of these guys. They play hard for them. These types of managers seem to energize the clubs, challenge the players, owners and FO.

Hmmm...I think I see a pattern here.

My adopted son Matt Downs. Because face it, everybody else was already taken by the time I got here.

by nvsfg on Jan 31, 2008 8:15 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
"Players seemed to love each of these guys. They play hard for them. These types of managers seem to energize the clubs, challenge the players, owners and FO."

A lot of those qualities are often attributed to Dusty Baker, too.  

by Skaldheim on Jan 31, 2008 11:23 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
You are correct. I have had firsthand experience with Dusty though :-) I am still not over October 2002.

I loved him as a "players" manager. The clubhouse appeared to be tight, and except for the Kent/Bonds thing, the team seemed to have good chemistry. The team looked like they were having fun playing the game.  They thought they could win it all. There has not been much of that in the last four years.

My adopted son Matt Downs. Because face it, everybody else was already taken by the time I got here.

by nvsfg on Jan 31, 2008 11:48 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Dusty Baker is my favorite manager ever, in the sense that I liked the way he ran the clubhouse, the way he walked to the mound, the way he talked to the media, etc. Unfortunately, he wasn't much of a manager in terms of actually running the team and winning games. Sigh.

The opposite would be Tony LaRussa, I guess.

by Evan on Jan 31, 2008 8:27 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
I was going to say Dusty as well.

I think he was pretty brilliant at managing the personalities of the Giants, particularly after Kent arrived on the scene. I think he was great at using his bench. He always seemed to know when to give Ramon Martinez a start, or when to pinch-hit Charlie Hayes. I like that players loved playing for Dusty, but that the Giants weren't country-club during his tenure. They always played hard and respected the game when he was here. That soon changed with the arrival of Felipe.

I think Dusty's Achilles heel was his understanding of pitchers. This is what ended up doing in the Giants in the '02 Series.  Overusing FRod and Worrell. Not leaving Ortiz in, in Game 6. Going with Livan instead of Woody in Game 7 (or going with Torres over Sanderson in Game 162 of the '93 season).  I just think Dusty sort of had a tin ear where pitching was concerned. Dusty knew hitting and hitters typically flourished while he was the Giants' manager.

I'd also say that the Giants won lots of games when he managed the team. Just not a particular couple of Games in October of '02.

by tobias on Jan 31, 2008 8:58 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
He's also the guy who stuck with Marvin Benard starting constantly and justified it by saying he just needed at bats to break out of his slump.  If I recall correctly, he also had a tendency to bench the hot handed player.  That irritated me to no end.

We won a lot during his tenure here, but we also had some badly losing teams.  I think he made a difference, and I too loved that the players played hard for him...  But I think he tended to outmanage himself a little too often.  Otherwise, he was a good guy.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 9:08 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I thought benching the hot player was Felipe's specialty. I don't think Dusty did that. But, yeah, the Marvin-love was truly a bewildering thing.

by tobias on Jan 31, 2008 10:21 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I remember discussing this with my brothers.  I think Dusty was on record as saying that if a guy was in a bad slump, he just needed to play out of it, which was why Benard played so much, despite an 0-21 slump or two.  That's what I recall being the case, anyway.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 10:40 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I really loved Dusty as the manager of the Giants, and Roger Craig as well.  I think most of what a manager does, we fans never see.  In our desire to quantify everything now, I wonder if managers like Dusty are now undervalued, at least by fans.

by Skaldheim on Jan 31, 2008 11:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I've never felt a manager particularly adds or subtracts from the overall success of a team.  Sure, there's the "little things" a manager can do, like make pitching changes, know when to call a bunt, and show support for players who are struggling.  Those things can often make the difference of maybe one run per game.  But it's not like football, where a coach and his schemes can actually overcome lesser talent and utilize players properly.

That being the case, I think there are a few managers who do things particularly well.  I thought Bochy brilliantly handled the pitching this year, something Baker and Alou never could figure out.  Someone posted a link to a Manny Acta interview where he commented that he won't call for a bunt early in a game because he doesn't believe in giving up outs for free.  I appreciate that thinking.  I think Joe Girardi did such a fantastic job in Florida, I too wish he'd been interviewed here and brought on (though I think he was bound and determined for New York from the get-go).  And I think we're all about to find out what Joe Torre is REALLY capable of this year.

That's about it.  I guess I'm not overly familiar with most managers to know who else is good and who else is bad.  I think too many try to over-strategize when they really don't need to.  But that's about it.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 9:02 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
I liked Torre for a long time. He behaved with class and apblomb while in New York, pretty hard to do when his boss was a raving ass 99% of the time, and the media does all it can to make everyone on that team look bad.

Now he's a Dodger and he's dead to me.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 31, 2008 9:10 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
As managers in terms of ability, I like Leyland, Acta, and Eric Wedge. I've always liked Ron Washington and Willie Randolph is okay. Plus Leyland is just a cantankerous old fart who does things his own way and can't be bothered with what people think. I like that.

In terms of pure entertainment value, can't beat the insane duo in Chicago of Pinella and Ozzie Guillen. Sweet Lou goes off with the frequency of a geyser and Ozzie just says incredibly stupid things. All in all it's good for lulz.

Of current managers I cannot stand La Russa. I think he's overrated as a manager. He also behaves like a sore tit about almost everything and is a big huge complainer. I wish he'd just gtfo and focus on his ARF stuff. I really admire and respect the work he does for animal rescue. I just am over him as a baseball manager.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 31, 2008 9:09 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
LaRussa giving up the All Star Game so that his guy, on a non-contender, wouldn't have to risk one lousy at bat was the last straw in my lack of respect for LaRussa. I don't believe for a second that it was anything but a self-serving move. Sure, the ASG is a joke and he was just taking advantage of that fact for his own pointless good, but it was still a lousy thing to do.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 31, 2008 10:42 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I can't complain with the list compiled. Leyland, Cox, Torre  as the best of the senior statesman types.
Funny but I see Baker  and Valentine on a similar level. About were Torre was during his stint with the Cards.  May get better may not. But still not all that bad.
Acta  gives me a growing case of the "if only's".   The Giants non interest in him is beginning to take on Vlad like dimensions to me.

Maybe I am jumping the gun here. But if the Giants are  say 22 -33 come June 1st do the assembled here think that puts Bochy on the hot seat? If so who do you hope they look at as a replacement?

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 9:57 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers

I'm with JRPhillips.  The effect of the manager on the game is highly overrated.  Much like the effect on catchers "calling" a game.

by zenbitz on Jan 31, 2008 10:10 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
Just curious but do you think Sabean makes out the line up for the Giants?  I ask because if my impression that is not the case in San Franscicio yet. If I am wrong please correct me. If I am right a manager has a huge impact on building team.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 10:32 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I'm having a difficult time deciphering this one, but I think you're saying that if the GM puts together the lineup card, then the manager doesn't have much of an impact on the game.  But if the manager does it, then he DOES have an impact.  That right?

That's a good point, but by that logic, I could manage a baseball team pretty easily.  It's not that hard to put speed/OBP at the top of the lineup, power in the middle, and struggling players at the end.  Obviously there can be many variations on that theme, but that's the overall crux of most lineups.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 10:38 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Supposedly that  (Line up cards handed down from the front office) was the part of the Bochy's falling out  in San Diego.  I am sure there as plenty of other reasons as well. The A's have been rumored to do something similar  for awhile. I say rumored because I don't have any first hand evidence but it is something  I have heard in passing over the years.

 But yes my point is if the manager  has control, or final say, of the line up cards his impact on a building franchise can be huge. The conditions which he benches players and what conditions he finds favorable for what skill sets directly impact how the roster is constructed the following season(s).

And that's not getting into some managers teach the game easier then others just like some managers deal with huge ego's better.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 10:50 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Wow, I'd never heard that before at all (cards, front office)!  That's interesting if true.  I could definitely believe it with the A's, but I really think Sabean is such an old school baseball guy, it wouldn't be the case here.

The managers teaching the game easier than others is a great point.  Often times managers are hired because they're better at overseeing a youthful team or veteran teams.  Sadly, that's why Bochy was brought in to SF.  So that's true, if I were building a young lineup, I'd want someone like Acta or even Art Howe over someone like Lou Pinella.

But even still, in most situations, I think the manager might account for a few extra wins a season, but it would be the difference between winning 90 games or 93 games.  Typically, I think most managers, if they let the game play out and make substitutions when necessary and such, will pretty much balance out over time.  So if you have a team like the Giants, I think the difference between Lou Pinella, Bruce Bochy, Manny Acta, Joe Torre, or Jim Tracy, the win difference is probably only going to be about 3 wins, maybe four.

These numbers are brought to you in part by:  My ass.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 11:19 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I will not quibble on the numbers this time.  Thank you Mr. Ass for your hard work on our behalf.

It's the accumulative effect of a managers style over the seasons I think gets over looked. If a manger hates "base clogging" batters and is in one spot for a while the team OBP very probably goes down.  Or a manager expects to work pitchers they were worked in the 70's  arms seem to burn out rather fast.  Maybe a manager has a couple very good power hitters so  base runners taking an extra 90 feet tends to become seen as more likely to run you out of an inning then scoring you extra runs. Over the years team base running skill then might good down. Etc.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 11:50 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
That's why I think the best managers are the guys who just lets the team play, and uses the best players on the team the most.  Giving a guy a day off is huge and should be done regularly, making sure your backups are fresh...  But I really believe you're going to do your best work if you just let your team play the game.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 12:09 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
You're leaving out the RH/LH aspect. Managing the order of handednes is critical. If your power is 2 slow-footed RH batters, and you put them back to back, the GiDPs will kill you. Plus it isn't just putting the struggling hitters at the bottom. In the NL it is better to have your worst hitter hit 7th. A better hitter in the 8th will force more BBs and IBBs, and with less than 2 outs your pitcher becomes more valuable through sacrifice.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 11:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I technically didn't leave it out, I just didn't mention it.  Which I guess technically IS leaving it out...  I mostly didn't mention it because I think trained monkeys can handle lefty-righty matchups, whether it's pitching or hitting matchups, or order in your lineup.

My personal opinion on it is that too many managers try to strategize a little too much, and that's when a team really starts to get into trouble.  For example, when a manager brings in a lefty to start an inning to get out a lefty hitter or force a righty off the bench.  One batter later, a righty is brought in to face a righty hitter.  Then one batter later, another lefty is brought in to face another lefty.  Too often it just seems like too much strategizing and killing yourself.  Kevin Towers once said he doesn't like lefty specialists because he wants his bullpen to be able to give him complete innings.  To me, that's the smarter play.  Even picking who to hit 7th or 8th seems a bit academic.  On a team like the Giants, chances are both your 7 and 8 guys suck (i.e. Durham and Vizquel in 2007.  Who bats 8th?).  Even on particularly good teams, just how good are your 7 and 8 guys, typically?  It all strikes me as too much analysis.

I did like what one guy said about managing personalities.  I think that's also part of why we didn't bring in Manny Acta, is because he's too young, and probably couldn't have handled a guy like Bonds very well.  But I think that's probably one of the biggest contributions a manager makes to a team.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 11:43 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I fully agree on the lefty/righty switch thing.  You go to the `Pen often enough and you will tap a guy that is having a bad day. Its just  unavoidable. At that stage of the game there is usually 10 outs or less to recover from a mistake. So if the guy in there is getting it done and not facing a batter with a long history of mashing him why take the risk?

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 11:56 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Okay, I agree with most of what you say except that I don't think it is that easy to constuct a batting order because of all thats involved; handedness, BA, OBP, power, bat control, bunting ability, speed, etc. Just think back to last year on this site with all the debate about whether to bat Bonds 3rd or 4th. And that's just one part of the order. Look at the way some managers tinker with there lineup trying to find the right combination.

You are absolutely right though about some lineups being the only logical choice. And when you have sucky hitters it isn't going to matter. Hopefully the Giants won't always have sucky hitters though.

I made the same point in another post about managing the personalities. I think what makes a good manger is complex.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 11:58 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I agree, Marklar. There are a lot of factors to consider when making out the lineup.
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Feb 1, 2008 5:52 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
Zen,

I agree that Managers make very few decisions that affect the game in progress. However, the ones they make that do affect the game have significant impact. A pitching change, a bunt in the right spot during the game, a pinch hitter or defensive switch to accomplish a specific objective.

That said, a Managers demeanor and management style have a significant impact on the team (read clubhouse atmosphere, team unity, all of the intangible BS). Last year the Giants seemed to have a "WTF, Who Cares?" attitude on the field. There was not a real "Team Leader" that I could see. That attitude seemed to correlate directly with Bochy's style of managing. I rarely saw Bochy get upset.

I did see a few sparks of excitement from the new/young guys like Frandsen, Davis, Ort, Velez, and Nate. Their talent may not match their enthusiasm, but at least they acted as if they gave damn. Then you had Ray-Ray with his "grimace" and "head shake" after watching strike three go by.

I could be wrong, and frequently am, but I hope that last year's environment was directly related to the media circus surrounding "the chase". I would hope that this year I see somebody that acts as if they give a sh*t, even if the expectations are so low for this club.

Somebody besides the McCoven has to get pissed off when Matt Cain throws a two hitter, only to lose the game.

My adopted son Matt Downs. Because face it, everybody else was already taken by the time I got here.

by nvsfg on Jan 31, 2008 11:14 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers

I would just like to say that I didn't say any of the following:
  1. a trained monkey could be a ML manager
  2. managers don't have some effect on a teams's season
  3. there's no such thing as good and bad managers.
I said the effect of these attributes is HIGHLY overrated.  I think all the posts above this (other than JRs) illustrate this nicely.

Playing your best players matters, unless the difference between the guy you bench and the guy you play is minimal (think "Giants 2008 OF").

Not overworking or injuring your pitchers is important.

Clubhouse morale, etc.... I dunno.   These guys ar e pros, and baseball players are basically paid on their individual acomplishments (stats). So  I they have a vested interest in putting their heads down and playing.  

by zenbitz on Jan 31, 2008 12:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
"I said the effect of these attributes is HIGHLY overrated.  I think all the posts above this (other than JRs) illustrate this nicely."

Dude, that's about the meanest thing someone's said about me today!  It's pretty true, and very fair, but it's still mean.

And I didn't say a trained monkey could be a ML manager.  I said a trained monkey could figure out lefty/righty matchups.

I do believe that a manager has an impact on the game, and there's definitely a difference between a bad manager and a good manager.  But there's also a whole lot of middle-of-the-road managers.

My main point is that in the Major Leagues, the quality of players on your team will have a far bigger impact on your team than the manager will.  This is especially true of great teams and really bad teams.  The Yankees, Pirates, Red Sox, and Giants each could have Bochy, Torre, Tracy, Girardi, marklar, Grant, zenbitz, howtheyscored, JR Phillips, or my 1-year-old daughter managing the team.  The Yankees and Sox are still going to be playoff bound, and the Giants and Pirates aren't.

With a middle of the pack style team, I think certain managers are going to make a big difference.  But my personal opinion is, the guys who tinker the least are the guys who are going to have the most success with a middle of the pack team.  Calling for a sacrifice bunt in the first inning, making three pitching changes for three outs, constantly moving guys up and down the lineup to find a lineup that "works" instead of basing it on who's performing the best...  These strategies aren't typically going to win you more games.  Giving up outs for free early, wearing out your bullpen for one inning of work, and lineup tinkering just isn't going to do it.

Now instilling discipline and unity, playing a team that puts its best foot forward, getting bench players at bats and starters occasional breaks, having a pretty good ability to tell when a starter needs to be pulled and when he should be left in...  These are the things a good manager does.

Just don't fool yourselves into thinking that if we had a different manager than Bochy, our team would be a contender, or with Joe Torre, the Dodgers are going to be unstoppable.  I stand by the notion that a manager doesn't make THAT much of a difference.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 1:28 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Managers
I think there is a general way to play baseball and that all managers know it. But it is when playing by the book isn't the best move in a given situation is what separates the great managers from the rest. That doesn't happen very often, so the difference is maybe a couple games a season.

I think some bad managers are the ones that overuse and tire out a bullpen over the course of a season. I think there is a good reason why some of the best managers are ex-catchers; as players they overlap all aspects of hitting, pitching and defense.

But I think it is a very complex issue. I would say a good manager is one that knows his weaknesses and can trust people like his pitching coach. How good your pitching coach is and how much a manager trusts him could have a huge effect.

And then you could be good at all aspects of the game and still be a terrible manager because of how you control, or lose control, of the temperment in the clubhouse.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 11:44 AM PST   0 recs

Re: Managers
Since we're speaking of managers, does anyone have a theory on why Cito Gaston hasn't gotten another shot at managing after leading the Blue Jays to back-to-back WS wins? He's meant to be a "player's manager" in the spirit of Dusty, but it seems like guys with far less impressive resumes than Gaston's get hired while he doesn't even get interviews.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 1, 2008 12:21 PM PST   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed

Search

User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about San Francisco Giants.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Hb307-1_small
McCovey Chronicles Community Prospect List #29

by marcello about 21 hours ago

71 comments | 3 recs

Hb307-1_small
McCovey Chronicles Community Prospect List #28

by marcello 2 days ago

73 comments | 4 recs

200px-carl-hubbell_small
Something for your iPods

by Bitter Fan 4 days ago

15 comments | 6 recs

Hb307-1_small
McCovey Chronicles Community Prospect List #27

by marcello 4 days ago

47 comments | 3 recs

The20catch20part202_small
OT: 360 or PS3?

by UnleashTheGore 5 days ago

147 comments | 4 recs

Recent FanPosts

Dodgersstillsu128511964064062500_small
Super Early 2009 record predictions

by homerdrew415 about 21 hours ago

134 comments | 0 recs

Backcross_091507_small
Sabean discussing Manny on MLB's Home Plate Show

by sdcindy 1 day ago

54 comments | 0 recs

Small
Top 10 reasons why Manny won't come to SF

by TakeAGiantStepNGo 2 days ago

88 comments | 0 recs

Small
what a difference a year makes...

by giantdonkey 2 days ago

143 comments | 0 recs

Centipete_rose_small
Giants radio affiliates in Oregon

by BaronVonCurrentEvents 2 days ago

76 comments | 0 recs

2403673339_c94295a8b8_small
What's your secret?

by Giant among Angels 2 days ago

137 comments | 1 recs

Player_small
2009 Salary Numbers

by LiquidPolio 2 days ago

16 comments | 0 recs

0711_kantoku14_b_small
Athletes with Illegitimate kids: Randy Johnson?

by NeifiChicken 3 days ago

134 comments | 1 recs

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

Recent Posts