Is Crede worth it?

Re: Is Crede worth it?

i have always said that the giants are great at developing young pitching so losing a pitcher to try to get a hitter isnt that big of a deal to me. there will always be other sanchez' and lowry's. i know the others here dont like it because he isnt that much better than feliz statistically, but id rather take a small gamble on a hitter with a fresh start. if its sanchez for crede im all for it. lowry for crede im hesitant, but id still do it, no matter what it looked like, statistically speaking.

my non-baseball friends think im listening to art bell all the time when they hear "giant spaceball is on the air"

by son of riles on Jan 30, 2008 9:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

id be happier if it was hennessey, and dont particularly love crede but whatever.

by sam23 on Jan 30, 2008 9:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

A couple bags of empty beer cans or Dave Roberts for Crede. Much more then that is pure Spec Richardson. If Crede was a free agent its an entirely different bag of chips. But he is not and thus it isn't.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 10:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Just for the fun of piling on after the whistle...

Crede, Omar, Durham, Ort. By the baseball gods if that does not sound like 1980 Evans (ops+ 119), LeMaster( ops+ 59), Stennett ( ops+ 67) & Ivie (ops+ 79) only much older. Milt May at catcher had an Ops+ of 90 that year so him & Molina might be a wash as well.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

You mean, except for the 2008 Giants having anyone who can put up a 115 OPS+.

by zenbitz on Jan 30, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I error on the side of caution this time. There can be a freak of nature season for the over 115 OPS season in `08.

But, unless I am mistaken, the average age for the Giants 1980 IF was far lower. Only Ort will be about the same age as Ivie. Thus the 1980 IF could have had theoretical options to be traded, free agent compensation picks, increase potential realized into developed talent etc were the `08 IF squad not so much.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

More in the way of eggcorns... do I fall in the gaping hole again...?

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

No it's not. Giving something up to acquire an awful hitter is a crap deal for us. Especially an awful hitter who Kevin Frandsen could conceivably outhit (minus HRs).

Joe Crede would be two things: 1) a short term "solution," and 2) Pedro Feliz with worse defense.

We don't need either of those things.

Why... why would you give up any talent, andy but the worst, most useless talent, to get a short term version of Pedro Feliz to block the second of our two actual ML ready prospects?

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 10:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

You leave me out of this

I never supported the Crede idea!

Free Kevin!

Oh, typo. I get it...

And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Jan 30, 2008 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: You leave me out of this

Actually, you were right the first time. I could have sworn you were all like "Crede" this and "Crede" that and "swoon" here and "swoon" there.

That wasn't you?

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: You leave me out of this

I have veteran-savy-ophobia.

Couldn'tve been me.

And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Jan 30, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: You leave me out of this

Oh, oh. My bad. It must have been "Andy in Fresno."

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

We really have no idea if Crede will be worth anything until we see him play, but there's many reasons to be pessimistic. I'd rather see Frandsen get the regular ABs.

by Skaldheim on Jan 30, 2008 10:21 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Who is their Second Baseman? Uribe? Can we trade Durham+Cash for Crede? Or Roberts as a Back-up OFer? I wouldn't part with a prospect for a one-year player rental. Especially not for a 30-year old, Broass client, coming off a dismal year, with a prospect ready to take his spot. Forget it.

by kennv on Jan 30, 2008 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

They have stated that

it will be competition between Alexei Ramirez ( the Cuban guy they signed), Danny Richar (the guy they traded Aaron Cunningham for), Ozuna and Uribe.

It will likely end up as either Ramirez or Richar.

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I live in Chicago and have watched him play. I am all for it. He finally started playing like they thought he would during the WS Title year. Then however, he got injured and didnt return to form. If he is healthy again, it is well worth removing some depth for a year of a Crede. He was an All Star for crying out loud. Feliz never has been. Those who say he is not as good as Feliz are wrong. He is not as good defensively, however, not by a ton and few are. But his offense is better than Feliz. And if Feliz is so much better than why all the bad responses of resigning him? Lastly, he is another "glue" guy. I know many dont care about that but it is important. Anyone who has played ball, knows how things can get contagious and next thing you know you are playing as one. Hitting all over the field. If Frandson wins the 2B job, Ortmeier lands first, and Lewis/Davis man Left we do still need some veterans to balance it out. And with our need of fundamental baseball for a dominant staff I love the move. There is not a better 3B out there that is available.

by S49erfan on Jan 30, 2008 10:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Another "anyone who has played ball" statement? Eh... whatever. I guess this one isn't bad at all. Weird we keep seeing them, though.

Just a couple things. I always kind of felt that WS stuff was awful flukey of Crede, even when it was going on. The injury sucks, and we don't know if he could have kept it up, but it remains that those couple weeks are the only times he's ever shown that ability... and that makes me verrry wary. The other thing is that (I have played ball, a little), and I just don't buy the whole "glue"/"chemistry" stuff. Intangibles are cool, but it just sounds like more "Warrior Spirit" guff to me. You don't need rhetoric if the player doesn't have serious question marks. Rhetoric like "team guy" "glue" "warrior" "plays the game right" "and glue" tend to be compensatory phrases for players who you like, but who you can't completely back up based on their play.

That's just my take, though. For all I know, Crede really is that guy we saw for a couple weeks during the WS run, and just needed to heal up/change scenery/etc. Good luck to him. I don't believe it's worth the chance for us.

ESPECIALLY for one year.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Sooooo, the reasons to trade for him are that he is a little bit better than Feliz, he's the best option available, and he's glue?

The reasons against trading for him are he's not really much better with a bat than Feliz (lifetime EQA's are .244 and .247), he's certainly not better with the glove, he's a significant injury risk, and he will cost us players we might be able to use to get someone useful.

Just because he's the best option available doesn't mean he's worth signing, let along trading for.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 30, 2008 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Veterans to balance what out? Did we trade Rowand, Durham, Aurilia, Vizquel, Molina, Roberts, Winn, Kline, and Zito to pick up Crede? Rebuilding teams don't need balance. They need youth, upside and flexibility.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Jan 30, 2008 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I've always felt that they stunk as a band, and that their lead singer was just warmed over Eddie Vedder*. And at $5M per season? And losing starting pitching? No way should Sabean consider it, nomatter how hard the new CF is lobbying.

*Warmed over by Jesus

by biff pocoroba on Jan 30, 2008 10:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

With that excellent post, you've made me do a 180 with regard to Biffs, whom I previously harbored an irrational prejudice against, perhaps related to my childhood appreciation of the Back to the Future series.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 30, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I still hold that warmed-ver eddie vedder is better than the regular eddie vedder.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 30, 2008 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

You mean the one who sounds like he's imitating a heavy metal singer who is in turn, imitating a previous heavy metal singer...

by zenbitz on Jan 30, 2008 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

yes.

actually I'm just saying that Eddie Vedder is an overrated d-bag.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 30, 2008 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I sure wouldn't trade a young guy for him, simply because it's a one year deal. If someone is to be traded it should be someone like Durham, who only has a year left on his deal. That frees up second for Frandsen and gives us a third baseman. I'd save the young pitchers for a good trade that might enhance the team for a longer period of time. For one year of a Boras client, only give up one year of a vet.

If it doesn't work out, Frandsen might just be our third baseman, and I think there's worse things that could happen. So trade smart, Sabean.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 10:40 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Ok, despite what I've said, Durham would be the only guy who would make this trade worthwhile. Now that you bring it up.

But mostly because I think Durham is toast, and freeing up 2B for Frandsen not only lets him play his better position, but it leaves 3B a total black hole that we'd need to fill with some crap. And Crede counts as some crap. It would be two stones with one bird. Or something.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I would support Durham+Hennessey for Crede. It may well be overpaying, but it doesn't really hurt us that bad, and it would probably be enough to get the job done. Did the White Sox fans like Durham when he played for them? Could be something there.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 30, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Did the White Sox fans like Durham when he played for them?

I would assume so. He was a two-time all star with them and that was when he was a speedy guy who could hurt you with his legs and his bat.

He'd conistently slug .450 and steal 30 bases. I doubt they'd even recognize the current Ray-Ray.

I'm Goofus McPenisbutter and I approve this message.

by Goofus on Jan 30, 2008 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Um, didn't someone just attest to the fact that the Chisox already have too many 2bmen? Seems like Roberts + Hennessey would make more sense.

by BigO on Jan 30, 2008 1:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

To elaborate on my earlier point about prospects.

Kevin Frandsen and Nate Schierholtz are the only two ML prospects we have who likely have futures in the league as starters. Frandsen, long term, will likely move back to middle of the infield, but he projects to be perfectly serviceable there. Schierholtz also projects to be a perfectly serviceable starter as a corner OF (I'm not saying great, or even "pretty darn good," but he will more than likely be at least serviceable).

Frandsen is now in his mid 20s and is out of options. Schierholtz is in his early 20s and has options. Frandsen can't possibly benefit from minor league time (partly because he's out of options, and partly because he's hit his plateau at that level). Schierholtz has some raw areas that could easily benefit from another year f seasoning in AAA.

So if one of the two guys needs to be blocked by a one or two year short term or crap player, it should be Schierholtz. Low and behold, that's what happened after the Rowand signing. Roberts and/or Winn got pushed to a corner to block Nate. Not that big a deal. Nate just seasons another year or half year in AAA (hopefully) until one of those guys gets shoved out. It's positive for his development, and gives us a chance to get something productive back for Winn/Roberts.

But this is why the idea of "Roberts for Crede" is not a good one. All "Roberts for Crede" does is switch the guy who's getting blocked by a short term or (and) crap player, and it switches it from the guy who can still benefit by being blocked to the guy who can't possibly.

I'll say it again. There is no reason to give up anything for Crede. He'd be a short term filler, and not very good at that, and all the guys we'd send away for him could conceivably net some form of prospect (read: infinitely more useful than Crede) if we just show a little bitty bit of patience.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 10:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Absolutely agree, 100%. Now if Sabean were to trade Roberts for him instead, our only hope would be that Frandsen could win the job outright at second, and Durham would be told to start taking grounders at other positions around the infield, because he's now a super sub. I don't know if Durham COULD be a super sub, but I think that should be how he's utilized if we acquired Crede or another third baseman and Durham is still around too.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I agree entirely. Why trade a Lowry or a Sanchez for a player whose position is blocked on another team? Most people think that Crede is merely filler for this season and, assuming so, why not simply sign Ensberg/McPherson/blahblahblah for less money and without giving up a useful player?

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Jan 30, 2008 11:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Every time I see someone mention Ensberg/McPherson/blahblahblah I get a little excited. I desperately hope that Sabean would make a low risk-high reward move like this. Then I get depressed because there is no way he'll actually do something like that. Instead he'll trade an asset for filler like Crede and call it good.

You would think that after what happened with Pena last year teams would look at those types of options more seriously, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 30, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

The problem with Roberts For Crede isn't Roberts or Crede or Frandsen or even Durham. It's Bochy. I would rather have one year of Crede at third, Frandsen at second, and Durham backing up (and Schierholtz getting playing time) than two years of Roberts, with Durham at second this year and Frandsen at third (Schierholtz in the minors). Regardless of the money, that's a better move for both the present and future. And I understand that maybe perhaps it's possible Roberts would get a decent prospect, but there aren't a lot of teams that I can see giving up anything worthwhile for a guy who's basically a coach/backup at this point in his career, especially one getting paid like a starter. Denker for Sweeney probably isn't going to happen again.

But Bochy would never make Durham a full-time backup. I just can't see it happening. So Roberts for Crede would hurt.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Jan 30, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Roberts vs. Durham in trade

I think you're right, groug. Bochy would be the problem. The best choice for us would be Durham traded for Crede (if Sabean won't consider MacPherson), opening up 2B for Frandsen. Second choice would be getting rid of the other guy we really don't need, Roberts, for Crede...IF Bochy understood that Durham ain't getting any better and he needs to understand he's now the super-sub/PH.

Either of those scenarios would be improvements, even if Crede is only a carbon copy of Feliz on offense. And they'd be huge improvements if Crede could hit .270 and take the occasional walk.

If it took including Lowry in the deal, to allow us to get rid of either Roberts or Durham, I might even go that far. But then I don't think much of Lowry's future, and I know others disagree.

"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Jan 30, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Only if he agrees to a three-year contract extension first. Preferably with a full no-trade clause.

by Evan on Jan 30, 2008 11:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Don't forget the vesting 4th year based on outs generated.

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Jan 30, 2008 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Ha ha ha ha!...heh...ummmm...you are joking, right?

Look at Crede this way. Career hitting stats:

.259/.305/.446

That's only slightly better than Feliz's career stats of .252/.288/.433.

Crede's numbers have been deflated by injuries, so if he's healthy we could expect a boost. However, that boost would likely be negated by moving home parks from homer-happy Comiskey to Mays Field.

Worth trading Brad Hennessey? Sure. Jonathan Sanchez or Noah Lowry? No way.

"There's not enough bases out there to intentionally walk everybody you want to." - Grady Little

by leftymalo on Jan 30, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Gallows humor. I thought the no-trade clause would give it away.

The White Sox aren't giving Crede away for free (or at least they'd be stupid to do so), and Sabean's not trading anything of value for a one-year rental. If Crede comes to the Giants, I expect to see him signed to an extension within a couple of months.

by Evan on Jan 30, 2008 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I'd trade one of our relievers for him, but trading Lowry or Sanchez for him would be really stupid. FTLOG, he's slightly better than Pedro Feliz offensively. I don't understand why Sabes is even considering this!

Oh wait, he hit ~30 HR~ with ~94 RBI~ a few years ago and is ~gritty~. NVM.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jan 30, 2008 11:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

And as noted above, he sniffs glue. That's gotta count for something.

"There's not enough bases out there to intentionally walk everybody you want to." - Grady Little

by leftymalo on Jan 30, 2008 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

It all depends on his price. If it's something like Erick Threets, I'm down.

But I wouldn't waste a better trade chip in Lowry or Sanchez for him.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Jan 30, 2008 11:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Reading other comments from around the internet about this Crede trade-to-be is making me lightheaded.

Example:

>> "Let's assume that Crede will not net MLB ready talent. Who do you think we pluck from the Giants farm system?

Henry Sosa would be nice...."

Nggggh.

by xanthan on Jan 30, 2008 11:32 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Dear crap...

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 30, 2008 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Deer crap

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 30, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

This is right in line with the notion that Matt Cain would be great filler for the back of the White Sox rotation.

Pardon my language, and apologies to any Giants fans in the Windy City, but... Fucking Chicagoans.

HEY, speaking of Chicagoans, you know who ELSE is from Chicago? Ned Colletti. I'm just sayin. I don't know WHY I'm saying it, but I AM saying it.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's because of Sabean

Because of how Sabean is perceived by fans from other teams, most fans assume that their team can dump old declining players on the Giants for young talent.

It's not just Chicagoans. I've seen fans of many other teams speculate about trading ageing declining players for Cain / Lincecum.

by rfloh on Jan 30, 2008 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Didn't Matheny recommend Morris?

by sakbaum on Jan 30, 2008 11:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Yeah, as much as everyone rags on Sabean, I don't really want Rowand calling the personnel shots, y'know?

by Skaldheim on Jan 30, 2008 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

And Bochy recommended Klesko. Actually, he was probably the best of the pathetic bunch. Still, I'm not very impressed with these ex-teammate recommendations. They epitomize poor business sense.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 30, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

You might change your mind if/when Ryan Howard or Jimmy Rollins become free agents . . .

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Jan 30, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Ah, but those are players who need no introduction.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 30, 2008 12:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it GUARANTEED i will - i've got spare time.

But if you want to consider getting a QUALITY product (third baseman), you might wanna consider going with us (in-house options).

by mlb22 on Jan 30, 2008 11:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

You just can't go wrong with Tommyboy quotes. And to use one of the absolute best quotes of the movie, well... You're pure genius!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

its the best movie ever made. of all time. ever. as a new visitor to this site, ill be mixing in the entire movie whenever appropriate to spread the gospel of tommy boy.

by mlb22 on Jan 30, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Tommy Boy

Just avoid Black Sheep references and we can remain friends.

Obama - ??? 2008 : He's not Hillary

by RangerMoto on Jan 30, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Tommy Boy

ugh, that movie never happened. It was like, a, 0.

by mlb22 on Jan 30, 2008 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

....

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 30, 2008 11:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

No

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 30, 2008 12:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

While this has been an interesting read, head over to the discussion on mlbtraderumors.com. Chicagoans think Cain is a fair trade. ha ha ha One even counters after the rising uproar that fine, they will throw in MacDougal and Uribe for Cain. hahahaha Its pretty funny.

by S49erfan on Jan 30, 2008 12:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Well, they have a fine source in Rob from Wheaton.

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 30, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Perfect

Sabean has already effectively blocked Lewis and Schierholtz, and a trade for Crede would block Frandsen. Then all he'd have to do is sign Tony Clark and platoon him at 1B with Aurilia and he'll have all our young players blocked going into spring training. I love it when a plan comes together!

DOWDIFICATION - Deliberate omission of a term or terms to change the meaning of a quote. (Refers to journalist Maureen Dowd)

by English Professor on Jan 30, 2008 12:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Perfect

Mention The Devil and up he pops.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

no hennessey, sanchez, lowry, freddie lewis, or prospects,

DOWN SABEAN!!, BAD SABEAN!!

let the white sox have one or two from... roberts, kline, durham, aurilla, anybody who is not part of the youth movement
Crede will be a good fill at third if we can get rid of someone not part of our rebuilding listed above

until we can sign a free agent at first or third next year or the year after who is young with more promise, or even find a better trade, for now lets watch someone who will at least hit some homeruns, we still want some entertainment value in our tickets cause we are offically rebuilding no matter how much sabes doesnt want to admit it

"But if he's swinging at real flies, well, in that case there are two definite solutions: 1) Fresno 2) Ritalin." - howtheyscored

by CPGiant756 on Jan 30, 2008 12:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Here is a nice switch for you to use on the Bad Sabean. He still will not listen for deer crap but you will feel better afterwards.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Seriously if we trade arms to get a player who is essentially what we gave up, we're retarded. If you're trading young pitching, do it for a player who's under control for a couple of years. I still Mark Teahan may not be the worst shot, or else go get a Dallas McPherson or Morgan Ensberg as a cheap, short-term fix.

Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Jan 30, 2008 12:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I can't believe how much traction we've gotten off of various Crede-related threads the past 10 days.

by KCE on Jan 30, 2008 12:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

IAWTC

by English Professor on Jan 30, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Could the deal be for Winn? The Sox need a leftfielder, and perhaps they aren't so keen on Swisher in center (I'm not). Winn would be an improvement in left, and we have an outfielder or two to spare.
My, preference, of course, would be to dump Roberts, Durham, Aurilia and Winn. In that order, and preferably two at the same time. I'm thinking Roberts, Aurilia and cash for Crede and Craig Wilson, since it's fun to wildly speculate. But they probably don't want or need an old 3B/1B backup.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Jan 30, 2008 1:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

they could definitely use another outfielder, particularly one who could play center, and also have a need for another top of the order hitter... hmmmm

by stealth snail on Jan 30, 2008 1:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Tim Dierkes of MLBTR is a Chicagoan. He's a Cubs fan but seems to be very knowlegdable about White Sox. His thinking was that Lowry was too much for Crede and thought that Hennessey would be about right. I would do that with some big ifs attached:

If Crede proves to be healthy.
If Frandsen starts at 2b.

I Would much rather see an infield of Crede at 3b and Frandsen at 2b than Frandsen at 3b and Durham at 2b.

I like the fact that Crede is in the last year of his contract. If he stinks as bad as some think he will he'll be gone at the end of the year. That already makes him a better choice than Feliz with a 2 year contract. If he bounces back to a 260/310/450 season we have a nice filler at 3rd and/or a trading chip at the deadline.

I think Kline or Roberts for Crede would elicit the same scorn that we feel over some of the proposed trades for Cain or Lincecum.

by marklar on Jan 30, 2008 2:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

And I think trading Winn for Crede would be really stupid. One, it would be overpaying, and two, why trade our 2nd best outfielder for the sole purpose of seeing if Nate can make it in the bigs or not? We would still have Roberts. Sheesh.

by marklar on Jan 30, 2008 2:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I agree trading Winn would be over paying. The over payment of Winn is still less then the over payment of a young starter. It would not be ideal but I could make my peace with a Winn move.

The advantage to the Giants in moving Winn is it would create a lot of opportunities for Lewis, Nate, Davis, and others to increase there stock. If they increase their stock they can kept or bundled up in a better package ( reducing the pressure to trade Cain or Tim) for the type of position players we are not currently producing.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I wasn't advocating trading Lowry or Sanchez for Crede. Hennessey seems like a fair deal. I am not particularly high on Crede but I think the Giants would be much better with Crede/Frandsen at 3b/2b with a Nate/Rowand/Winn OF than Frandsen/Durham 3b/2b and a Lewis&Davis/Rowand/Nate OF.

The disadvantage of moving Winn is there is no guarantee that any of the Nate/Lewis/Davis younsters are going to be ML average. I'm fine with 1/3 of our outfield as a testing ground, but I think 2/3 is risky. Plus trading Winn almost guarantees we will see more of Roberts.

by marklar on Jan 30, 2008 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I did not think you were advocating trading any young arms. I was merely trying to say of the probable poor moves trading Winn is the least likely to have medium to long term negitive repercussions.

I can accept and respect your position of only 1 OF spot up for grabs. I just don't agree with it. I think the team is in poor enough straights that any team controlled ( for 3 or more seasons) position player that might have near MLB level talent needs to given every chance to develop. If the development is a success, however limited, that's a win. If the development is a failure that is a smaller win. Team, and fans, waste less recourses on the `09 and forwards squads. I also have to say ( in the interests of honesty) most years I would agree with you.

As for seeing more Roberts we are already going to see has much of him has his body will allow. If the whole Durham `07 taught us anything it taught us a Veteran can not possibly lose playing time in a Bochy club house. Period.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

It's true that we aren't going to compete in 2008, so giving 2 as opposed to 1 OF spots to unproven players isn't going to make much difference in the long run. Actually I would be quite happy to see all of our youngsters getting decent shots to show what they have.

My problem is that, although they won't be competitive this season, I still want the '08 Giants to at least be respectable. We are still going to play a lot games against the Dodgers and the rest of the NL west and I just don't want to lose a huge number of games. If we trade Winn and don't have an ML average OF among Nate/Lewis/Davis. and they make up 2/3 of our outfield it isn't going to be pretty. Worse case scenario; trade Winn, Rowand gets hurt, and our OF is Nate/Lewis/Davis/Roberts. If the young guys can't step up, and there is no guarantee that they can, it could mean a very ugly season.

I know we won't compete for the post-season, but I want to believe that we can still compete in games. Maybe I am just too impatient for re-building.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I think about the only way we can even accidentally hope for "respectable" is to give the younger guys a shot, and pray to the god of skinny punks that it all miraculously works out.

Seriously.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 31, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Do not underestimate the power of the Gods of Skinny Punks! Even Murphy , of Murphy's Law fame, gives them a wide birth when their paths cross. Of coarse some say Murphy is one of them. Maybe some one else will ask him.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I get what your saying in that they could all wash out. I am rarely accused of being rosy eyed. But so what if they did? The Giants still have Rowland in center. Roberts would be here for his 900 innings or less on the field in `09. And the Giants would know they need another warm body or two for 09 and beyond as opposed to thinking maybe 1 or two of the young outfielders will pan out only to find out a year later they wash out.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Agreed, there is real benefit to finding out what we have with the youngsters. The so what if they don't, is the feeling we'll have when the Dodgers, D'backs, et al, come into Mays Field licking their chops at the prospect of getting fat on the sheep of the NL west. The thought of being doormats fills me with a sense dread.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I don't quite get your question on "So what if the don't" and I don't want to assume which way you meant it. So I'll wait on that point.

I don't enjoy the door mat role at all. But it's the cycle of baseball fandom. And given the roster decisions made post W.S. `02 tell June of '06 cellar dweller is inevitable. What counts to me is if management make the most coherent actions to minimize our years as a door mat.

Having just one league average or better position player locked up post Oct `09 scares me even more the cellar. It means more contracts for marginal filler vets in their sun set years. It means any up grades through trades will either be pure luck or involved the highly risky move of trading either Cain or Tim. In short it seems to guarantee the maximum amount of cellar dweller time so I hate it even more.

by daveinexile on Jan 31, 2008 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Sorry, my puncuatuation was lacking, and could have been written more clearly. In referring to whether the youngsters can step it up, you wrote; "so what if they don't?" My sentence should have been; If they don't, the problem is...

But basically my post was admitting that your view point was a little more visionary than mine in that I want a modicum of respectability this year and I cringe at the thought of being the NL west's doormat.

by marklar on Jan 31, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Dude it was not that unclear. I just try to avoid being a bigger arse then normal with assumptions. I find avoid large assumptions cuts my "outrageous error rate " to about once ever y15-20 minutes and reduces wasted time with straw man arguments. Besides given my grammar, spelling and typos I have no room to complain. Thanks for make it clear to me though.

by daveinexile on Feb 1, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

No to illicit similar scorn offer Durham Or Kline for Kenerko. Straight up.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

What if we offered Kline, Durham, and Roberts for Konerko, Josh Fields, Nick Swisher, and Mark Buehrle? Then we have a third baseman of the future, someone to platoon at first base with Ortmeier, an lefty arm to use in the bullpen to replace Steve Kline, and... Another center fielder. The Sox get speed at the top of the lineup, a savvy veteran bullpen arm, and one of their most beloved second basemen. I think this is a fair trade. Think Kenny Williams would go for it?

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

NNNIICEEEE!!

Thanks I needed that.

by daveinexile on Jan 30, 2008 2:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

AVERAGE C ---(in chicago)-- c ---- .262 .346 .410
Joe Crede 3b 30 .263 .318 .438

AVERAGE C ---(in SF)------ c ---- .260 .321 .390 Ray Durham# 2b 36 .242 .319 .382

I don't really see that Crede is an upgrade over Durham offensively.

I couldn't tell you whether or not Fransden @ 3B and Durham at 2B would be better defensively than Crede/Frandsen.

by zenbitz on Jan 30, 2008 3:55 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

I'd think the biggest benefit would be putting Frandsen at his expected career position. Nobody seems to expect Franny to be a career third bagger. Ultimately, maybe it doesn't matter to the overall scheme of things, but it does get him where he should be sooner rather than later.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 30, 2008 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Dude 5.1 mil is nothing these days. You'd be lucky to sign a player off the FA market for anything less than 6. I'd spend 5.1 mil to give us at least a half-legitimate cleanup hitter so we aren't stuck with Rowand or Molina, and a stadium full of fans laughing at us every time we come up to bat during our away games. I'm all for getting him because we can trade him late in the season if he really turns on, and we can afford to give him that chance because he wont be blocking anybody if he plays at 3B.

by boonitez on Jan 30, 2008 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

$5.1M isn't that much but Feliz, a comparable player, earns less per year, and i'm pretty sure that Ensberg & McPherson would cost less too. Also he's not a free agent on a one year deal, he requires trading for.

"I'd spend 5.1 mil to give us at least a half-legitimate cleanup hitter so we aren't stuck with Rowand or Molina, and a stadium full of fans laughing at us every time we come up to bat during our away games"

Crede has a career OPS+ of 92, that's laughable as a cleanup hitter! In fact it's more laughable than Rowand (career OPS+ of 106) or Molina (OPS+ of 95.5 over the last 5 years, or 97.1 over the last 3)

by GiantFan on Jan 31, 2008 3:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Is Crede worth it?

Well, seeing as all three have just signed with other teams, it looks like it's tough titties for you. But when Feliz was here, killing rallies and maybe even a few babies while he was at it, I was not the slightest bit consoled by the fact that he was relatively cheap. Molina will sit on the bench regularly as a catcher, and Rowand will be a lot worse as far as slugging goes in a pitcher's park. So I would appreciate having Crede, who has proven before that he can hit okay in a slight, but not total, hitter's park. It would be fair to expect at least 20 homers out of him if he could stay healthy throughout the season. And sadly enough, that would probably lead our team.

by boonitez on Jan 31, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs