KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fifth-best
I know it was an off-the-cuff response, but here's a glimmer of hope from today's Keith Law chat:
Jim (LA): Name your top 5 minor league systems.
Keith Law: (2:12 PM ET ) #1 is Tampa. #2 is Texas. Beyond that I'm less sure, having not done this as a serious exercise (I will in late January). #3 is probably the Reds - very top-heavy, but tough to ignore that much star potential. #4 Boston. #5 ... I'll say the Giants, the opposite of the Reds, lots of star power that's years away. I reserve the right to change any of those last three.
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60 comments
Comments
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
Still, I'm not sure whether I agree, even as a Giants fan. Some of our best talent hasn't made it to full-season ball yet.
by Dan from NM on Jan 3, 2008 11:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Breakin the Law
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 3, 2008 12:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by multiphasic on Jan 3, 2008 1:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by rotorueter on Jan 3, 2008 1:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by Woody Wins on Jan 3, 2008 1:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by non sequitur on Jan 3, 2008 1:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy
by hairball on Jan 3, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by Sandor Clegane on Jan 3, 2008 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by JakeS on Jan 7, 2008 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
Nick (SF): Keith: How do you project Wendell Fairley?
Keith Law: Very high ceiling - middle of the order bat with power, hits for average, strikes out a lot, runs well, plays good defense in RF with a plus arm. Lot of development ahead of him, though.
by Woody Wins on Jan 3, 2008 2:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Oakland A's
BB isn't even done. There is still Blanton, Street, Mark Kotsay and Mark Ellis to raid other teams farm systems.
by Cainer on Jan 3, 2008 3:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Don't Agree
by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 3, 2008 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Santos numbers > Sosa's across the board.
Anderson, Gio, Carter may not have superstar ceillings, but all definitely have above average ceilings.
And that's not even including recent A's grown talent who also have some decent potential in Simmons, Cahill, Rodriguez, and Brown.
All in all, I'd take the A's farm over the Giants right now, and that's before the near inevitable Blanton and Street trades that are likely to come.
by awesomer on Jan 3, 2008 7:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends
by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 3, 2008 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by Bhaakon on Jan 3, 2008 7:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
It's certainly prevented them from consistently getting past the first round of the playoffs.
Say what you will about the differing strategies between Beane and Sabean the last decade. For all the youth the A's have graduated, the Giants are the team that's actually made it to the World Series and come close to actually winning it.
Or, is the low ceiling you talk about the ceiling of the luxury suites at the Coliseum? Didn't the A's make it a rule that no one, even fans, get above that ceiling, ever?
by BruteSentiment on Jan 4, 2008 12:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by sharksrog on Jan 4, 2008 1:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Seems to me we should load up on all the Kirk Rueter's and Eric Byrnes's we can get if luck can be used to disregard everything else.
Seriously, though, I do agree...luck has quite a bit to do with things in baseball. I sincerely believe the 2003 Giants team was better than 2002's...but a couple of dropped catches by the surest glove AT&T Park has ever had in right field ended that run. My suggestion is that a lot of luck also comes from experience, calm under pressure, and even teamwork...and Beane can't keep a team together long enough to develop those traits.
If you doubt that, ask the A's, and how a slide combined with a ridiculous cutoff/relay from five feet away from the plate can change a series.
Beane's best chance was the aforementioned team; since then, he's seemed more obsessed with unloading stars. I don't disagree with the Hudson and Mulder trades...the Mulder one in particular was a steal. But he had a team right now with several solid to good young hitters and some of the AL's best young pitching. Now, citing poor health, he's traded away the more RELIABLE parts and left himself with a team in shambles that is three years away from possibly contending, and I'm not entirely sure he's gotten more than two players who'll be significantly better than those he's given up....nor those he's given up on.
by BruteSentiment on Jan 4, 2008 3:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Let me offer the disclaimer that I really have done no research to speak of here, so I could easily be well off the mark.
But aren't the A's essentially about where the Giants were after the 2005 season? The Giants began what I would call a spirited effort to finally get some younger players beginning with the 2006 draft.
They may not have come up with much depth from that draft, but they certainly hit a home run with Tim Lincecum on the #10 overall pick. And a month or so later, they paid their largest bonus ever to 16-year-old phenom Angel Villalona. 2006 could go down as the Giants' best impact year in acquiring entry-level players since ... well, I'm not sure I can think of a better one.
Unless, of course, it turns out to be 2007, when the Giants made six of the top 51 picks and signed each of them.
So the Giants now appear to have a shot at again becoming perpetual contenders next decade. The A's farm system appears to be in every bit as bad a shape as the Giants' was two years ago. I'm not sure they have done as much as the Giants to repair their system -- but they have done it with players who will likely have a much earlier impact than all the Giants' youngsters save Lincecum.
I would presume the A's will be focusing hard on rebuilding their low minor leagues, perhaps with other trades and certainly with the entry draft. They are now somewhat a mirror image of the Giants, having a solid top of the minor leagues and a very poor bottom of their system. The Giants now appear strong at the bottom and very weak at the top.
I don't know if the A's moves will work out for them or not. But I like them for their boldness. Billy Beane didn't say anything about getting younger this off-season, yet he already has accomplished far more to do so than has Brian Sabean, who stated such change as a goal.
I suspect Brian still has a couple of moves up his sleeve. And at least he didn't trade Tim Lincecum. But he has miles to go before he sleeps.
by sharksrog on Jan 4, 2008 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Lest we forget, Billy has a very limited budget with which to work. More than being obsessed with unloading stars, I feel he is often forced to do so in order to keep his team competitive within that limited budget.
An oversimplification, but during the overlapping years of Beane and Brian Sabean, Billy had about the same amount of money to spend as Brian -- AFTER Brian had carved out many millions for the game's top player.
Take Barry Bonds away during the Sabean era and how well do you think the Giants would have fared? Since Barry missed almost all of the 2005 season, they haven't fared very well at all.
by sharksrog on Jan 8, 2008 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
they were 83-78 and an extremely mediocre team that got super lucky and won in the playoffs.
Playoff success has absolutely no bearing on team talent level.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 4, 2008 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Let's suppose a team has only a one-in-four chance of winning each round of the playoffs. That gives it a one-in-64 shot at going all the way. Not very good, but one which shows that any team that makes the playoffs at least has a SHOT.
Incidentally, if a team has a three-out-of-four shot at winning each round,it winds up with only a little over a 50/50 (actually nine-out-of-64) shot of going all the way.
A team with a 50/50 shot in each round has only a one-in-eight shot at going all the way, and even if a team has a nine-out-of-10 shot at each round, it has less than a three-out-of-four (actually 72.9%) shot at winning the World Series.
by sharksrog on Jan 4, 2008 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 4, 2008 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2008 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Human error is too big of a factor to rely on those percentages. Also, evaluation of which teams actually do have that 50-50 chance is also controversial and too inconsistent to swear by them.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 6, 2008 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
The point is to win...for me, that's the bottom line.
by BruteSentiment on Jan 4, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Does the best team always win the world series? Easy question? They don't! If it was all about the talent level the best team would always win. Guess what? It is dependent on luck.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 4, 2008 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
But saying that the playoffs are dependent on luck without acknowledging the other dependent factors is like baking bread without giving it time to rise because bread rising is dependent on using yeast. Yeah, yeast is one thing. but time is another.
I don't think you're not thinking along these lines, but you're certainly not getting yourself across along these lines, and I think that's where some of the arguments are coming from.
by howtheyscored on Jan 4, 2008 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
What I'm saying is that better teams have a better chance in the playoffs, but that a large portion of success in the playoffs is dependent on luck.
that's it. I don't believe playoff success is incredibly indicative of how good a team is. It's not a good way to measure that.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 4, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Two years ago St.Louis FOUND theirs at exactly the right time.
The Yankees keep playing the percentages and wtf happens every single year? Or does being a Yankee ballplayer just wear you down as a group consistently at the same time?
by victor frankenstein on Jan 6, 2008 3:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
The Yankees don't play the percentages. They signed Johnny Damon who is a terrible center fielder and then got hurt. Their pitching has been atrocious. Igawa was a flop, Mussina was okay, the rocket sucked, Pavano sucked. The only decent pitcher they had was the Big Wang.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 6, 2008 11:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by zenbitz on Jan 7, 2008 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 7, 2008 10:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Much of winning and losing in sports is luck. The larger the sample, the smaller role luck plays, of course. But in a single game, it can play a very big role.
The more scoring events in a game, the less luck plays a role. Thus, there is a lot less luck involved in basketball than in baseball, hockey, soccer or even football.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2008 9:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Luck
"The more I practice, the luckier I get." - Gary Player, HOF Golfer
by Cainer on Jan 6, 2008 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Luck
by daveinexile on Jan 6, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Yeah, the best team likely WILL win the President's Trophy -- but that "best" team doesn't really win the World Series all that often. As I pointed out, even if a team is a 9-to-1 favorite in each of the three rounds, that team's chances of winning it all are less than three-quarters.
I think part of the excitement and appeal of any playoff system is that any team that qualifies for the playoff has at least a theoritical chance to go all the way.
by sharksrog on Jan 8, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: '06 Cardinals...
The 83 wins on that team did not reflect the talent on the team. Maybe they were "lucky" that Rolen bounced back or that Duncan performed well or that Wainwright is as good as they thought he was. Or they just had the right players to win the Championship
by chefasaurus on Jan 4, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by rxmeister on Jan 5, 2008 9:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2008 8:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beane's Track Record
I don't think his track record is great at all:
OK, he got a couple of good players in the Mulder trade.
What about the Hudson trade?
Andre Ethier for Milton Bradley?
Didn't he give up a draft pick for Esteban Loiza?
Speaking of draft picks, just the fact that most of the 9 players he acquired in these trades are now making the A's top 10 prospect lists tells you something about the A's and their recent drafts.
by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 5, 2008 11:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Beane's Track Record
by zenbitz on Jan 6, 2008 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Lawl, you always find only the bad with Beane
He got a 5 star prospect and a stud starting pitcher for 2-3 years that he just turned around and got another 4-5 star prospect, 1 or 2 4ish star prospects, and a couple possible upside pitchers.
The Hudson trade didn't turn out so great.
2006 Milton Bradley - 114 OPS+
2006 Andre Ethier - 113 OPS+
Yes he gave up a pick for Loaiza, and it didn't turn out so great.
Yes, the A's didn't have a lot of high prospects in the system. This is because they have graduated alot of their higher rated ones like Suzuki and Buck recently and have been picking in the 20s most of their drafts because they do that thing called winning recently, which you always seem to omit when talking about Beane's teams, very convenient.
Some other things maybe you should mention about Beane:
Jack Cust for Nothing
'Nuff said.
by awesomer on Jan 6, 2008 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lawl, you always find only the bad with Beane
Funny, I tried using that to defend the lack of star power the Giants had turned out with their first round picks between 2000 and 2003, and I got blasted for that.
And those drafts turned out Lowry and Cain, too.
by BruteSentiment on Jan 6, 2008 10:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Yes, if the incoming player picked up is near the end of his prime years you have point. But my experience is some Giants fans are far more likely to fall into the kind of "trap" Sickel's points out about Villanola. Then if the young guy it not ripping through the leagues like Godzilla in the old films howling starts to get out of hand. Otherwise the fan base will give a young guy a few chances. A recent example is the way Davis has been received by the fans. There was a fair amount of " Who is this guy and why did we get him?' but I would not call that howling.
We, as a group, have our definite short comings but I don't see that as one of them. Maybe you see things differently.
by daveinexile on Jan 6, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Think the Twins' fans are worried when their team trades an All-Star for three young pitching prospects? :)
We have seen overall that Sabean (despite the A.J. trade) has done a pretty good job of trading prospects for veterans. We don't yet have a good sense for whether he can do the reverse. And it could be a while before we do, since the Giants have so few tradable veterans.
Brian's primary failings have been failing to improve the Giants' farm system nearly quickly enough and then making some poor decisions with regard the free agents necessary to fill unstocked positions.
Billy Beane isn't a god -- but he has been a pretty good general manager. So was Sabean for six seasons. But over the past five years his primary success has been in FINALLY improving the farm system. Had he been able to do so a half decade earlier, the Giants would likely still be a good team.
by sharksrog on Jan 6, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
Vivia Diminished Expectations! George Costanza would be so proud.
by daveinexile on Jan 6, 2008 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
That teams need elite talents to go deep in the postseason? Maybe, but the A's have had several elite talents over this period. No Bonds, of course, but then having the best hitter in baseball never won the Giants a ring. Besides, the year that the A's went deepest in the postseason (2006) was probably the year in which they had the most balanced roster.
Perhaps you were arguing that the Giants are better managed because they went one series deeper in the playoffs? Maybe, or maybe they're just luckier. One series is well within the realm of luck. There's also the monetary disparity. The Giants have spent (WAG) twice as much money as the A's over the last decade, and is only got them one round closer to a ring.
Maybe it's that graduating prospects isn't as important as winning itself? Well, duh. Of course winning is the ultimate goal, but developing players is just the best (and, in the case of a small-payroll team, only) way to win.
by Bhaakon on Jan 5, 2008 8:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 6, 2008 11:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
But back to Bhaakon. He's got lots of practice. And he can do it in Klingon.
by howtheyscored on Jan 7, 2008 12:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Depends
by Bhaakon on Jan 8, 2008 11:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we'll have to disagree
by awesomer on Jan 3, 2008 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take your word for it DrB
by Cainer on Jan 3, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I'll take your word for it DrB
But I was still overall unimpressed by that deal's ceiling.
by BruteSentiment on Jan 4, 2008 12:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What does hope feel like?
by howtheyscored on Jan 4, 2008 12:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: KLaw extemperaneously ranks Giants' system fif
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 4, 2008 6:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Marlins
by RangerMoto on Jan 6, 2008 12:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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