Ramble On
Problem: The Giants have several veterans who won't be a part of the next successful Giants team. These veterans are making more money than the market says they're worth, and they're blocking young players who have any chance of being a part of that team.
Solution: Trade them to another team and make up for the above-market contract by sending cash.
This seems like a pretty obvious solution to a problem that I would hope is just as obvious. By "several veterans," I'm mostly referring to Ray Durham and Dave Roberts. The only acceptable argument for keeping either would be that the Giants are hoping that both players have successful starts to the 2008 season. If Durham or Roberts get off to a fast start, the Giants wouldn't have to kick as much money (if any) back in a deal, and there's also a chance the Giants could receive a worthwhile young player in return. If they get off to slow starts, the organization could always release them, bury them on the bench, or trade them with a sack o' cash in the middle of the season.
An outright release isn't likely for Dave Roberts even if he hits .210 for the season. Since Sabean took over, he's released veterans like Rick Wilkins, Jim Poole, Ruben Rivera, Jeffrey Hammonds, Kirk Rueter, Marquis Grissom, Jose Vizcaino, and Jeff Fassero, but they all had one thing in common: They were all in the last year of their contract. Jim Poole had an ERA in 1997 of 7.11 in 49.3 innings. 7.11! But Sabean likely said to himself something like, well, he's under contract for 1998, so we might as well see if he's really lost it. (Answer: Good god, yes.) Over a decade-plus, that seems to be an organizational philosophy. If a player is under contract, you might as well see if he's capable of bouncing back.
Durham, being in the last year of his deal, isn't immune to the axe if he struggles like he did last season, but there's no way Roberts will get the Russ Ortiz/Diamondbacks treatment with a couple of years remaining on his deal. Trading a sack o' cash with Roberts seems to be the only way to guarantee playing time for Fred Lewis and Rajai Davis, who are both out of options. During Sabean's tenure, he has made exactly four dump trades. When Matt Herges and Alan Embree were traded away, cash went with them, but it wasn't a significant amount in either case. They don't count. The others:
Armando Benitez, a sack o' cash, and no return address to the Marlins
Matt Morris to the Pirates
Edgardo Alfonzo to the Angels
The other three: A malcontent who was famous for messing himself in a Game Seven World Series start and ignoring the advice of his pitching coach, a malcontent who would have caused riots throughout the Bay Area if he continued to pitch, and an unbelievable bonehead move by an outgoing Pittsburgh GM.
I started this post - and I actually did research for it, dang it - because I wanted to see if Sabean had anything in his past suggesting he could dump Roberts or Durham. It seems like Durham is a possibility to go the way of Grissom or Rueter if he struggles, but in order for Roberts to go away this season, he'll either have to go back in time and cost the franchise a World Championship, he'll have to become one of the top-five least-liked players in the history of the franchise, or the Giants will have to pull another fast one.
None of it seems likely. We're probably stuck rooting for fluke performances and deadline deals. At least it's an easy thing to root for when you're forced to.
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80 comments
Comments
Re: Ramble On
The thing is, for most of Sabean's career, the Giants have been theoretically in contention. We can always hope that he recognizes that the new circumstances demand a new plan of action.
Also, in Lewis and Davis, Sabean has not one but two players who pretty much share Roberts's skill set. I don't think that was true for all the players he didn't release back in the day.
by Evan on Jan 25, 2008 2:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 25, 2008 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ramblers let's get rambling
I'm afraid Roberts the Giants are stuck with.
I noticed in the four dump trades you mentioned that two of them were made recently. Maybe a good sign of another to soon follow.
by Cainer on Jan 25, 2008 3:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Actually, stike that last part. Sabes sucks big time no matter what.
Now, Robert could still have some value as a late inning speed type guy, a la Boston '04, so that one is possible. But for Durham its DFA or nothing.
by Poe on Jan 25, 2008 3:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
why the hell would any team want Durham?
by Natto on Jan 25, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: why the hell would any team want Durham?
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 27, 2008 8:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
It's not just Sabes but any GM who avoid releasing guys with more than a year left on their contract. That's common sense. Roberts isn't gettin released. And Durham should be given a month or so to try and restore some sort of trade value. Putting him on the bench in April is only going to guarantee he becomes bird feed. Even if KF isn't the everyday starter at 2B until June (though I hope he gets 3B to start), you haven't hurt his development- he still gets four months.
And the point was already made that since the Giants have mostly been in contention, Sabes' track record of salary dumps isn't relevant. And in 1998-99, salaries weren't so out of whack that dumps were the rage across the sport.
by mlb22 on Jan 25, 2008 3:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Trust me, with the format of this site, I'm amazed that I don't accidentally duplicate more diaries.
by Grant on Jan 25, 2008 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Jan 25, 2008 3:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
The Giants deserve Zito's contract, anyway. That's what they get for charging $30 to park and $8.50 a beer.
Thank God for the San Jose Giant, Municipal Stadium, and the Beer Batter!
by GaryEdmundCarter on Jan 25, 2008 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 25, 2008 6:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by sharksrog on Jan 26, 2008 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Beer Battered Cheese Curds..
by WalrusMan on Jan 27, 2008 5:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
At least as long as his contract is greater than 4 years long and his production is in decline. If both of those things change, he could get traded with ease, I suppose.
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Grant, you need to get the PTB on this. It's a major internal html processing flaw!
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 9:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Bet the Yankees would have done Giambi for Zito.
Perhaps the Mariners would have done Sexson for Zito.
by Kid Fresh on Jan 26, 2008 8:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by lincysgiants on Jan 26, 2008 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Thus, we win.
by groug on Jan 26, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by sharksrog on Jan 26, 2008 3:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by lincysgiants on Jan 27, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Hijack: Favorite cartoon as a child. Mine was G.I. Joe.
by Grant on Jan 25, 2008 4:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On_Cartoon Hijack
by nvsfg on Jan 25, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On_Cartoon Hijack
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On_Cartoon Hijack
Obviously, I didn't know there had been one in the '80s.
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 8:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On_Cartoon Hijack
by JRPhillips on Jan 28, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by Natto on Jan 25, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by marklar on Jan 25, 2008 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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That show unconsciously taught me more about storytelling and more about recognizing and appreciating good animation, voice acting, and general film quality before I was 10 than I think anything else has taught me about anything before I was now.
Hands down.
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 6:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
I was telling my wife recently about Two Face from the movie and from the cartoon, and how the one in the cartoon was such a deep, emotional story. The movie ruined it by trying to turn him into The Joker Lite. All the depth and tragedy of the character was lost in the movie. Seriously, Joel Shoe maker was outdone BY A KIDS CARTOON! If I'm a movie studio, and I see a comparison of Joel's Two Face versus a kid's cartoon Two Face, I'd never ever ever employ that guy after that!
It's also funny you mentioned how the cartoon taught you how to appreciate good voice acting. I once played an old Star Trek game on the PC with the TNG crew. They all, including Picard, seemed to sleepwalk through their lines, it was terrible! Later, I heard Riker and Troi doing more voice acting in that show Gargoyles, and they were terrible in THAT, too! That was my introduction to how good voice acting can make or break animation.
by JRPhillips on Jan 28, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Not saying that makes it better. I haven't seen Gargoyles in years and I didn't really even watch it then. Just saying. That's practically an entire crew if you make Riker the Captain, Data second in command, and give Troi and Uhura less useless roles to fill!
by howtheyscored on Jan 28, 2008 12:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by JRPhillips on Jan 28, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
- The Beatles
- Super President
- Jetsons
- Bugs Bunny Show
- Speed Racer
- Kimba
- The Eighth Man
- Ultraman (though not cartoon)
- Thunderbirds (though not cartoon)
- Captain Scarlet (though not cartoon)
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 25, 2008 7:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Animaniacs and Pinky & The Brain were pretty sweet too.
by groug on Jan 25, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by groug on Jan 25, 2008 11:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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Did it work? Well, they can't all be winners.
by groug on Jan 25, 2008 11:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Though Sonic the Hedgehog comes close. "Blue Streak, Speeds By. Sonic the Hedgehog! Too fast for the naked eye. Sonic the Hedgehog! Sonic, he can really move. Sonic, he's got an attitude. Sonic, he's the fastes thing ali-ee-ive! Look out when he storms through. Sonic the Hedgehog! Don't doubt what he can do. Sonic the Hedgehog! , he can really move. Sonic, he's got an attitude. Sonic, he's the fastes thing alive, he's the fastest thing alive, he's the fastest thing aliiive!"
by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 9:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 10:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 10:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by Natto on Jan 26, 2008 10:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by Dan from NM on Jan 26, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Darkwing Duck was by far the best. Pinky and the Brain a distant second. Doug a close third and Ed Edd and Eddy rounding them out in fourth.
yeeeesh
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 27, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Courage the Cowardly Dog! It's a newer one, but stick him up there with darkwing duck. great great show.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 27, 2008 8:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
So how, exactly, did Pinky become our G.M. again?
by daveinexile on Jan 27, 2008 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 27, 2008 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by groug on Jan 27, 2008 7:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Pinky and the Brain, though, was one of the best afternoon cartoons... Ever.
by JRPhillips on Jan 28, 2008 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
from Dough Ray Meow:

kinda says it all.
by The Gene Hackman on Jan 28, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hijack
by Andy from DC on Jan 25, 2008 4:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hijack
by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 10:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by rxmeister on Jan 25, 2008 4:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
he is a terrible sign, a waste of money and he gets too much credit for his speed and ability to "be a good guy". In all truthfulness, I'd rather have a productive asshole than a sucky nice guy.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 27, 2008 8:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
by allfrank on Jan 25, 2008 5:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
And, dammit, cut me some slack everyone! Today's post sucked. Doesn't that just highlight how awesome I usually am? If there wasn't ugliness in the world, how would we know how to define beauty?
by Grant on Jan 25, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Personally, I would love to see Frandsen at 2b and anybody, Crede, Ensgerg, Pedro, at 3b, UNDER THE RIGHT TERMS. Meaning, one year (hell, I'd throw $8 mil away for one year), and not giving up a player not named Ray or Dave. I mean, give away Durham, put Franny at 2b, and anyone on a one year contract at 3b, but keep all of our pitching (Durham or Roberts for Crede, from my perspective, is perfect. But since it is unlikely, then I'd rather see Pedro or Ensberg and keep our chips, ie Lowry). But since Durham is signed for just a year, I'd rather play Durham/Frandsen at 2b/3b and have the opening at 3b to try to fill next Winter.
The interesting thing is we can afford it. AS I calculate it, we have spent/will spend about $71 mil for '08. Meaning we have $30 mil to playwith/spend in the draft.
by allfrank on Jan 25, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Randy Winn is going to make $8 million in '08 and $8.25 in '09 as opposed to Roberts who will make $6.5 per.
Winn had about one hundred points of OPS advantage on Roberts in 2007. Most of this can be explained away by luck.
Winn's batting average on balls in play was .332 last year, but based on batted ball data, his BABIP should have been .307. Take away 25 points of batting average on lucky singles, and you have a right fielder with about a .750 OPS.
Roberts, on the other hand, had a .308 BABIP and his eBABIP was .327. That's 38 points of OPS for Roberts, which takes him up to .733.
I'm not saying Roberts is better than Winn. I'm just saying Winn might be the one to sell. Both are signed through 2009 and I can't see either one being a part of the next Giants winner. It seems much more likely that Winn could be dumped without picking up as much salary and with a better return in terms of prospects.
Trading Roberts right now would be a sell low and trading Winn would be a sell high.
by jc2125 on Jan 25, 2008 5:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Randy Winn is a serviceable hitter, a better defender and capable at all 3 outfield spots. Dave Roberts is fast and can't throw or hit. And he's older. Randy Winn could help the Giants in the future, Dave Roberts could not.
by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 25, 2008 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Notice that I went out of my way to say that, all things being equal, Winn is a better player. But Randy Winn's going to be 34 in June. Pretending that he's really going to be part of the future is just another extension of the Sabean veteran fetish.
This team will not compete for a playoff spot in 2008. Right now the Giants are trying to clear room for Rajai Davis and Fred Lewis. Doesn't that scream that the Giants need an upgrade in near-Major League ready offensive prospects?
Trading Randy Winn has a much better shot of upgrading the farm system than trading Roberts. Unless the difference between being 17 games out and 20 games this year is a big deal.
Trading Dave Roberts doesn't do anything except clear a roster spot. BTW, I never said Dave Roberts could help the Giants in the future.
by jc2125 on Jan 25, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
by chefasaurus on Jan 25, 2008 6:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
That being said, he may be traded this Spring, or at the deadline, depending on how Capellan works out. If he is good enough to keep on the 25 man AND if TAschner can stop walking the first hitter he faces, OR Misch shows a little improvement, then Kline would no longer be needed - and he could bring back some small chit in trade. But right now it is not certain we have any LHRP on the roster we would want to keep on the 25 man out of ST
by allfrank on Jan 25, 2008 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
As with the OF and Kids situation, I'd rather see Sanchez, Misch and even Threets get some more serious looks than have to watch Sweaty Steve get thrown out of games because he can't get his slider over.
by chefasaurus on Jan 25, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
It seems to me this is the first glimpse of the Sabean draft/trade strategy. And if one of the young LHs emerges, the old veteran gets traded at the deadline for something significant.
by allfrank on Jan 25, 2008 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by jponry on Jan 25, 2008 6:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 25, 2008 8:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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by joeytothelimit on Jan 25, 2008 9:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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by drysdalecousin on Jan 25, 2008 9:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 9:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by drysdalecousin on Jan 25, 2008 10:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 10:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by hummbaby on Jan 26, 2008 6:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 27, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by ANDY MELAMED on Jan 26, 2008 8:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
Still, it'll be tough to see Lewis, Schierholtz and Frandsen on the bench if it comes to that.
by Dan from NM on Jan 26, 2008 11:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
by ET90210 on Jan 27, 2008 5:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Ramble On
So, what's date for his first DL stint? Heck, will he make it out of ST without injury?
How is this team going to score more than 2-3 runs/game? It isn't.
by Glasscock on Jan 27, 2008 10:11 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

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