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3b on the way soon?

Tiny by rayver723 on

any idea what a crede or chavez could get?

my guess is sanchez would be centerpiece. they'd probably ask for wilson and get denied. both thos teams could use a pure CF like davies/lewis. any ideas? maybe velez?

Am I the only fan frustrated at watching other teams making moves while the Giants stand pat? Next to signing Aaron Rowand and Omar Vizquel, the Giants have done nothing to improve their ballclub. Do you think they're done making moves?
-- Mark B., Santa Clara, Calif.

The orange-and-black-clad natives are restless, as this double helping of input reflects. The fans' impatience is understandable, since the Giants typically have reshaped their roster by this juncture of the offseason. As Ryan pointed out, many other teams are in a similar holding pattern. That doesn't necessarily excuse the Giants; it simply demonstrates that they're not as far behind the curve as many people think. Ideally, the club will address the third-base issue and add a veteran reliever to provide experience and stability before pitchers and catchers report on Feb. 13. Regarding third base, they could be waiting until the exhibition season to gauge the performance of some trade candidates recovering from injuries (Joe Crede? Eric Chavez?), but I doubt that general manager Brian Sabean wants to wait that long. Recently, defending Sabean means inviting ridicule, but despite the Giants' inactivity, he fully knows what he must do to put the team in position to win. The Scott Rolen-Troy Glaus trade could start a chain reaction that facilitates other deals -- maybe even one or two involving the Giants.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: 3b on the way soon?
At this point, it may make more sense to wait until ST to make moves on the corners if we're going to make any. If indeed Lowry is healthy, and if his elbow issues are what made some teams shy away, then it could be to our advantage to showcase him in AZ. Same goes for Sanchez, I suppose. I doubt that they will give Franny a real shot at third, and hope there is an alternative to Ort at first, but I sure hope they don't get antsy and go the Pedro Feliz and Tony Clark route just to get something done. (hope to hell i didn't just jinx it!) Plus, if we wait for ST, we can wait to see if Nick Johnson is really coming back (though I guess everyone else can too).

by BigO on Jan 16, 2008 3:23 PM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Jon Sanchez alone isn't worth an Eric Chavez, nor is he worth two Joe Crede's

by the1 on Jan 16, 2008 3:45 PM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
He might be worth an Eric Chavez if we tried to do it right now before Spring Training when he can prove he's healthy enough to play.  He makes 11 mil a year, and if we offered to take all of it ourselves, they might do it.  They're huge on saving money.

by boonitez on Jan 16, 2008 4:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Team payroll's already dropped by like 1/3 this offseason. I'm pretty sure the A's don't need to cut it any further. If the Kotsay deal is anything to go by, they're looking for prospects, not dollars.

by PaulThomas on Jan 16, 2008 6:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I agree
Given a healthy Chavez is a Gold Glove winner, automatically the number 3 or 4 hitter on the Giants, the lack of anyone in the A's minor league system to take Chavez' spot, and the shallow depth of the Giant's minor league system, any trade with the A's is going to start with Angel Villalona.

Swisher cost the White Sox their 2006 #1 prospect, plus two pitching prospects with the upside to be a #1 or #2 starter.  Thinking that a trade with the A's wouldn't cost the Giants their lone B+ prospect as a starting point is fooling yourself.

by Threepwood on Jan 16, 2008 10:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I agree
Key word "healthy Chavez" which he ain't.  He is damaged goods and as damaged goods he will need to come with a significant discount and most likely dollars too for anyone (Giants or otherwise) to pick him up.  What the A's got for Kotsay is about all they can expect for Chavez.

by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2008 11:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I agree
But I think you are missing PaulThomas's point.  The A's don't need to move any salary, so there is no need to move Chavez before the A's find out if he is healthy first.

To get Chavez any time before the trade deadline Sabian would have to force Beane's had with a Swisher like deal; that means Angel Villalona, the Giant's top prospect.  

Since he can just hold on to Chavez, if Beane doesn't get an offer of near healthy value there is nothing to keep him from holding on to Chavez and raising the price even more later in the year (At witch point Beane will be justified in requiring Angel Villalona).  Chavez is going to be expensive and any discount the Giants get by moving on him early will be small.

The big gain by paying for him early is to keep other teams out of the mix and keep those teams from driving up the price.

by Threepwood on Jan 16, 2008 11:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I agree
Bull.  He dumped Kotsay when the opportunity presented it's self and he will do the same if a simular opportunity shows up for Chavez.

by giantsrainman on Jan 16, 2008 11:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That makes no sence.
You're comparing apples to oranges.  

Kotsay (32), when healthy is a  .280 10 home run a year hitter, in his last year of his contract, amd whose saving grace was above average defense in center.  

Chavez(30), when healthy, is one not only arguably the best defensive third baseman in baseball, is under contract for 4 more years at below market value, and is a #3 hitter who will give you 30 home runs and 100 rbi's.

Even healthy, Kotsay's only value to the A's was MAYBE, if the A's were very lucky, being a type B free agent when they would have let him walk at the end of the year.

Chavez is not only under contract long enough to be part of the rebuilding process, but if he comes back next year healthy could be flipped for 3 of a teams top 10 prospects.

Chavez, even injured with worth 10 times what Kotsay was.  For a team who over said will have a 72 million payroll cap this year, but is spending less then 60 million currently--and was one of the most profitable teams in baseball last year with an 80 million payroll--there is no reason not to keep him and hope his health improves unless another team forces Beans hand with a "healthy" value offer.  

If I'm Beane I'm saying "Give me Angel Villalona plus two prospects now, because if I keep Chavez till midyear and he is healthy, not only will you have lost out on all that production and be entrenched in last place in the devision, but the price will have gone up.  But if it turned out he will never heal from his injuries by mid-year--then you can have him for slop."

by Threepwood on Jan 17, 2008 12:05 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: That makes no sence.
I don't believe Eric Chavez is likely to be worth the gamble.

by sharksrog on Jan 17, 2008 12:38 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: That makes no sence.
Comparing Chavez's worth to Swisher isn't a very accurate one.

Swisher is 27 & under contract for around $6M a year for 4 years. Chavez is 30 and under contract for around $11M a year for 3 years.

Swisher has played over 150 games & had an OPS+ over 120 in the last 3 seasons. Chavez has achieved those once in the last 4 seasons (in different seasons)

by GiantFan on Jan 17, 2008 2:57 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: That makes no sence.
I agree.

and let's go back to the salary thing for a second.  I don't believe for a second that $11 million/year in salary relief wouldn't be attractive to the A's.  It takes about 400,000 to 500,000 ticket sales just to cover Chavez' salary and I doubt they think he'll bring that many incremental butts to the seats.

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 8:24 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

And as PT already said above
the A's payroll has already been cut tremendously.

It could very well that Beane would choose to pay for Chavez' salary in a trade, in return for better prospects. In effect, buying some prospects.

He already did that with the Kotsay deal. He did that last year with the Kendall deal.

by rfloh on Jan 17, 2008 10:56 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: And as PT already said above
No he didn't.  You didn't ever read what he said.

He said that BECAUSE they cut their payroll by 1/3, which they didn't even need to do because Lew Wolff has the soft cap for the A's at 73 million this year--a number they would have easily met before the trades.  They don't need to cut anymore salary and are looking for prospects not money.

And NONE of the people replying read what I said when I pointed out that even with a payroll of 80 million last year the A's were one of the most profitable teams in baseball.  Anyone who thinks that Chavez will be moved for cash is fooling themselves and ignoring the facts. The A's need prospects to contend with their new stadium, not financial relief.

The A's paid 5 of the 7 million of Kotsay's contract because it got them a guy that most Braves fans considered their closer of the future, and Kotsay was someone who they were going to let walk.  Chavez is under contract for 4 more years and could easily be kept for 2010, therefore he has a much higher value to the team and will cost more--especially if there is a chance he could be healthy.  The A's are doing what the Giants should be doing and rebuilding by stockpiling prospects istead of letting people like Lincicum continure to age and loose value.  If Sabian wants Chavez he is going to have to give the A's what they are after--top prospects.

by Threepwood on Jan 17, 2008 2:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I agree
No way in hell it would take anything close to Villalona.  They would crap their pants in delight if they got an offer like that.  Chavez is injured far too often to give up that much.  Swisher is far better than Chavez right now in that he has yet to have a serious injury and he consistantly hits almost as well as Chavez un-injured.  He's essentially a guarantee to start next year.  That's why he cost the ChiSox so much.  Chavez for all we know could be damaged goods, which is why he'll be cheap.  And even if they cut down their payroll signifigantly already, they'd still jump at an oppurtunity to save more money.  What's the point of paying for him if it makes no difference what he does because nobody's going to watch the A's this year?

by boonitez on Jan 17, 2008 8:12 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Did they really cut their payroll buy 1/3?  With the A's picking up $5 mil of Kotsay's salary next year, I didn't think they'd shed that much.
Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 8:28 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
I wasn't aware there was a team with two Joe Credes to trade.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 10:35 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Chargers' WR Malcom Floyd has an older brother named "Malcolm Floyd".  The story of how it happened is much cuter than George foreman just being stupid and naming his sons "George":

Even before he was born, his life took peculiar twists. While waiting for Malcom to be delivered, his parents decided to let their older son-- nine years old at the time-- have the privilege of naming the new baby. Big brother chose the name 'Malcom'. It didn't seem to matter that his own name was 'Malcolm'.

"I want to name the baby after me!" he explained. And so it was that Malcom came to have the same name as his own brother.

And oh by the way, The Chargers are playing for the AFC Champoinship on Sunday!

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 11:24 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
A nine-year-old got to name his younger brother? The younger Floyd is lucky he didn't end up named "Booger".
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 3:20 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Or "Spongebob"!
Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 5:08 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

FUCK THE HECK!?!?!?!?!?!?
Why do we need a veteran reliever to add, "experience" and "stability"?  When was the last time that worked out?

seriously, is he really making the argument that another Steve Kline will balance out the bullpen?

I'm sick of Haft.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 16, 2008 4:49 PM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
If there were no FA moves that made sense, I wouldn't care at all.

I'm sure Sabes has been shopping Lowry, Roberts and Molina. There is just no market for the latter two and Lowry isn't probably getting any legit offers.

However, leaving the MacPherson's and Ensberg's on the market is a poor sign to me. Those are two cheap gambles that could either net a trade in July, or draft picks after they year.

I'm starting to hop on the Dotel bandwagon (oh wait, there isn't one) merely because if we're going to add a veteran reliever, we might as well get one that could be tradeable in July. We have plenty of young arms for the pen (unlike bats for the lineup), but Tyler Walker has no place there.

Frandsen for 3B (til July 08)

by NeifiChicken on Jan 16, 2008 5:35 PM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Who says McPherson is cheap?  His agent is Boras and the Giants actually initiated contact but the talks died fairly soon after that, according to reports.  That, to me, smells like money was in the way (and if Boras is your agent, that's basically what you are looking for, top dollar).
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 16, 2008 9:47 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
That's my interpretation, too. I'm sure Boras is talking multi-year guaranteed money. Possibly evening buying out his arb years. If that guess is true, with his back problems, that's really a ludicrous gamble. But as ST approaches, he may see the light of reality. He'll almost certainly hold out for guaranteed $$$ though.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 17, 2008 7:01 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
I agree that we should pursue MacPherson or Ensberg.  If low-risk scenarios are all we can muster, then by all means we should take a flier. I find it bizarre that even with the roster in shambles we haven't made any sort of creative deals or even gone after Quadruple-A players who surely wouldn't cost much (if anything) in return.

I can't say I agree as for thoughts on Sabean's shopping (or lack there of). An article in the a Toronto paper (I believe) stated that the Mets approached us about trading Lowry for Milledge and we turned them down wanting an additional position player; a move that (if true) is a slap in the face. At the start of the season, a lot of teams seemed to be buyers for catchers, and I find it hard to believe that a modestly priced, useful catcher didn't draw any reasonable bids. Given some recent activity (Kotsay), I find it just as difficult to believe that if we agreed to eat some cash, that the Braves wouldn't have pulled the trigger for Roberts.

I just don't know anymore. I haven't had much faith at all in Sabean in the past couple years, but at this point this Giant's offseason should rate as one of the worst GM performances in the past ten years.

by MidKnight on Jan 16, 2008 10:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
I agree that McPherson is the best bet because has good power, wont cost Angel Villalona, and wont take a 3 year contract like Feliz.

But even if you do get McPherson...how to you get Bochy to play him over a veteran?  Do you stick a bag on his head with a picture of Rich Aurilia's face on it?

by Threepwood on Jan 17, 2008 12:17 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
"Do you stick a bag on his head with a picture of Rich Aurilia's face on it?"

That  could be arranged.

In all seriousness  what do you think happens to Bochy if the Giants are playing 400 -450 ball 6 to 8 weeks into the season? A slow start may not shift Sabean out but I would be very surprised if Bochy was not in hot water.

by daveinexile on Jan 18, 2008 10:04 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Bochy in hot water?
We can only hope, Dave.
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Jan 21, 2008 5:49 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Inge, Crede, McPherson, Ensberg, Feliz.......what's the difference? They all suck and they aren't the type of player that the Giants should be targeting.

One name that I have yet to seen mentioned in regards to the 3B situation is Willy Aybar. THis is a 24 year old with a decent upside that has encountered some personal problems......drugs, I think. He went AWOL on the Braves last year, but is now trying to get his career back on track. This is the type of guy that the Giants should be rolling the dice on. He'd be cheap, both from a trade and a salary standpoint, and being 24 could have a big future. If he doesn't pan out, we don't lose much.

Of course, this is the kind of the out-of-the-box thinking that seems to escape idiot-bou Sabean. He'd rather try to get Feliz to capitulate to only 2 years. This is why Giants fans are so frustrated.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Jan 17, 2008 8:48 AM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
woulda, coulda, shoulda.  another potential 3b gone.  the rays just landed aybar for a not-highly considered prospect. would the rays be willing to deal iwamura now?

by sam23 on Jan 17, 2008 11:34 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Pedro Feliz Sweepstakes
Thought I saw somewhere that the Brewers could still try to swing something with Feliz. Sorry, but I can't find the link. It seems to be a longshot with the Cameron deal in place, but maybe they'll trade Bill Hall. Maybe even to us?

by BigO on Jan 17, 2008 10:24 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Offense
With how bad the offense is, I'd rather the Giants take a chance on D-Mac, instead of watch Feliz flail at the plate again.

At least McPherson has the chance to be a 30 homer guy, even if it's a small one.

by Threepwood on Jan 17, 2008 2:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Why hasn't Sabean kicked the tires on Eric Hinskie? He gets on base a lot, can play 3B, 1B and the OF. Supposedly the Red Sox want him back, but he is hoping to sign with someone where he'd get more ABs.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 11:04 AM PST   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Hinske is a little younger, poorer hitting version of Feliz. Barf.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Jan 17, 2008 1:08 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Hinske is a better hitter than Feliz. They are fairly equal in BA/SLG:

Feliz - 252/433
Hinske - 255/434

But in OBP/OPS:

Feliz - 288/721
Hinske - 336/770

You can have Feliz. I'll take Hinske, because the most important thing is that he isn't Pedro Feliz.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 2:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Hinske is not likely at all to get anywhere near his career averages.  In addition his defense can not hold a candle to Pedro's.  If cheap enough (say 1 year and $1.5M but only guaranteed if he makes the team) I would take a flyer but I don't think this is likely.  If he costs more I would rather give our young pitching staff the benifit of Happy Pete's glove.

by giantsrainman on Jan 17, 2008 7:52 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 3b on the way soon?
Interesting idea. I wonder whether he can still play third base well enough.

by Dan from NM on Jan 17, 2008 6:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

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