Pollyanna
by Grant on Sep 22, 2007 12:04 PM PDT
in News
75 comments
I get the decision. I really do. If the Giants are going to be an awful team, it doesn't really matter if they have an achy 43-year-old getting on base at a high clip. They're going to be awful, and they need to revel in it. 1985: "Hang in There". 2008: "We're Sorry. We're Really, Really Sorry." If the plan is to throw a bunch of young players to the wall and see who sticks, it doesn't make sense to give 300 or 400 plate appearances to Bonds. He can still play, but if the Giants are going to implement a true rebuilding plan, there isn't a place for him on this team.
Except the Giants aren't going to implement a true rebuilding plan. They're going to use the money saved on Bonds to throw at players who won't be worth it. They're going to try to patch this team up. They're going to conflate "getting younger" with "signing 30-year-olds to long-term deals." If they trade pitching for actual prospects, I have no confidence they'll pick the right prospects.
If the Giants don't trade Dave Roberts and Randy Winn, they'll both get 400 at-bats each, and that's a conservative estimate. Ray Durham and Rich Aurilia will still be on the roster, and they'll get a ton of at-bats.
The young players who do get a shot will have to buck some odds to be average. Nate Schierholtz looks like he'll need to be a .300 hitter to have any kind of value right now. Rajai Davis and Fred Lewis are fun to watch, but they don't have outstanding minor league track records. Even the hardiest of Frandsenites will only put Kevin Frandsen's ceiling somewhere around that of a vintage Mark Grudzielanek, and that's a ceiling that isn't likely to come in 2008.
The team will be awful. They could be awful with a team filled with projects and prospects. That would be my first choice, but there's just no way that's going to happen. So they'll be awful with a team filled with busted veterans, average veterans, expensive (but new!) veterans, and a couple of prospects fighting for at-bats.
If that's the plan, I want Bonds back. I want to have one player in the lineup who has a chance against pitchers like Roy Oswalt and Jake Peavy. I want to have one player who looks like he knows what he's doing. If the Giants aren't going to completely give in to a three-year offensive rebuilding plan, I want to have one player in the lineup who makes the game worth watching.
Nope. The Giants will spend their money like morons. They'll trade like morons. This is my guess at the roster:
1B - Richie Sexson (Brad Hennessey and Henry Sosa to Seattle)
2B - Durham/Frandsen
SS - Jack Wilson (Jonathan Sanchez and Clayton Tanner to Pittsburgh)
3B - Mike Lowell (3/$34M)
LF - Roberts/Davis
CF - Torii Hunter (5/$90M)
RF - Winn
SP: Lincecum, Cain, Lowry, Zito, Correia
RP: Scott Linebrink (4/$32M), Shawn Chacon (2/$12M), Brian Wilson, Tyler Walker, Steve Kline, Scott Eyre (2/$8M)
Sabean was on KNBR yesterday, and he was talking about "moving runners over", holding leads at the ends of games, and "winning games with defense." Yeah, you got it, Sabes. That's the problem with the Giants. It's the little things. The little things killed the Giants. Damn those little things. Damn those little things to hell.
This team can't score runs.
There is no one on the free-agent market who will help them score enough runs to compete.
The organization needs to find the players who can help future Giant teams score runs.
Anything else, especially now that Bonds isn't going to be around, is a waste of time.
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Barf
by Natto on Sep 22, 2007 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
Wait. It may in fact be impossible for you to be wrong in this case.
Crap.
by Poe on Sep 22, 2007 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
Yeah, but doesn't that seem to make winning a lot easier? The Padres just barely eek out a playoff spot each year (and their offense isn't even that bad). The Diamonbacks have a truly horrible offense but they've clearly made some pact with the devil whereby they don't have to outscore the competition to win games.
by oldjacket on Sep 22, 2007 11:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 22, 2007 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Padres are scoring
Sabean is either an idiot or a stooge.
by rfloh on Sep 22, 2007 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Padres are scoring
How about both?
by Anticon23 on Sep 22, 2007 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by howtheyscored on Sep 22, 2007 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
The fact that Sabes keeps saying bullshit like that really makes me think that he just. doesn't. get it. I mean look at our team rankings this year:
OBP: 15th
SLG: 16th
HR: 14th
2B: 16th
SB: 4th
SH: 6th
but yeah, we're losing because we don't do the "little things" right.
It's not that freaking hard to see why the Giants suck. It should be completely obvious to anyone with a brain.
by jponry on Sep 22, 2007 12:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What makes it even worse
I seriously wonder what the team OPS+, already an awful 87, will decline to next year.
by rfloh on Sep 22, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 22, 2007 12:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
If they do, then the decision to get rid of Bonds will become the abomination that most here see it as. But I am willing to let them prove their intentions before I start getting all over them.
by thehavenot on Sep 22, 2007 12:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by rxmeister on Sep 22, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
But how many times can someone as smart as Sabean (yes, I mean that) make the same mistake?
I have a glimmer of hope (just a glimmer) that he has figured out that young and cheap players have value. I am hoping that Cain, Lincecum and Lowry have shown him that young does not mean bad. I am hoping that he has looked at past signings, past trades, the current free agent crop, the current roster, and the performance of the guys he brought in last off-season, in conjunction with the performance of Cain, Lincecum and Lowry and comes to the conclusion that he should not be signing free-agents for expensive and long contracts. I hope that the fact that Rajai Davis has outperformed Dave Roberts, that Kevin Frandsen has outperformed Ray Durham, that Nate Schierholtz has looked good, that Hennessey outperformed Armando Benitez and that Brian Wilson has absolutely dominated leads Sabean to conclude that we must incorporate as many young, cheap players as possible and that means that next year is a rebuilding year and so must be considered as such and that is why he let Bonds go.
I will wait until the off-season and then once Mike Lowell has been signed I will call for Sabean's head just like everyone else. But I am one to give the benefit of the doubt, so I will wait until then.
One can hope. It's just a glimmer but I will grasp onto it.
by thehavenot on Sep 22, 2007 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
even those free agent salaries are diluted by the fact that living in the Bay Area is uber-expensive.
Sabean and co have no fucking clue what they're doing. None. They might as well trade Cain and Lincecum because their careers are going to be wasted waiting for the offense to get on the board.
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 22, 2007 12:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Anticon23 on Sep 22, 2007 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
But if they do like Grant says then it will cause me untold amounts of anguish.
by orangeandblackattack on Sep 22, 2007 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"...winning games with defense..."
(Open your hymnals to page 2006...7..8..9..)
by victor frankenstein on Sep 22, 2007 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by out machine on Sep 22, 2007 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
Team them up with our somewhat promising young guys and let them suffer for a year. Hopefully you catch lightning in a bottle and can trade for some promising prospects.
There is no way in hell this will happen but it seems like a more preferable strategy particularly with the awful free agent class.
by slcgiant on Sep 22, 2007 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 22, 2007 1:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
1) I doubt even Sabean would be stupid enough to think he would be preferable to Vizquel. 2) Vizquel would probably be willing to sign a 1-year deal for less than Wilson is making in 2008. 3) If they insisted on getting Wilson, he could probably be had for a lot less than Sanchez and Tanner depending on how much salary they'd be willing to pick up.
The rest of this scenario is way too plausible for my liking.
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
The Tigers were willing to eat his entire salary, or they were willing to give up "two of their top six prospects" but they weren't willing to eat the contract and give up the prospects. Someone will improve on the Tigers' offer.
I think the Pirates were wise to wait until the offseason, when Eckstein is the best free-agent option. Of all of the players up there, I'm most confident that Wilson will be a Giant. When Sabean talks about trading pitching for "younger position players", I'm sure he means guys like Wilson, and not guys like Asdrubal Cabrera or Reid Brignac, just to pull two names out of the ether.
by Grant on Sep 22, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
Any chance of a ALfonzo/Finley deal involving Durham and Sexson? Or are the M's content with Jose Lopez at second?
by sfgreg on Sep 22, 2007 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
Trades are crap shoot -- I certainly think the two this year worked in our favor -- so we can't project there. We will rise or fall on surprises coming out of the farm system.
by NearestNorwich on Sep 22, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by howtheyscored on Sep 23, 2007 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by oldrips on Sep 22, 2007 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
What I'm HOPING for is that Sabean likes to keep things under the vest usually and not tip his hand. So he usually says the usual bland cliches a GM says when he doesn't want to really say much of anything.
Plus, of course it's doubtful the Giants can get someone like A-Rod, but it doesn't mean that they can't or won't try. It's not like anybody saw the Barry Zito signing happening either or the Giants telegraphing such a move.
But if the Giants sign a bunch of mediocrities again to fill the lineup - and that's the awful implication of them saying that they are looking to the free agent market and want to be at the $90-95M payroll range and want to spread the money around and not on one player - then my confidence in Sabean would take a huge dip and I'm not sure it will ever recover.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Sep 22, 2007 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
wow
I understand this has been a painful year and the team has struggled, a terrible team at that. To just assume we are going to trade young guys to take on monster contracts like Sexson's and sign guys like lowell is overwhelmingly bearish.
Before you pronounce next season a failure brought on by terrible signings and trades can we please finish this season? Can we please let the offseason play itself out?
This site turned into a self pity forum almost overnight.
The Giants CAN compete next year around our pitching. Yes we have had problems closing games this year! yes we have failed to do the little things. That has been a huge part of our failure this year.to just blame it on lack of runs is crazy.
by fanofvanlandingham on Sep 22, 2007 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
In my opinion, to NOT blame our failure this year on lack of runs is just plain crazy. All of our other team stats are well within the range of acceptability.
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
ALL of our problems would be fixed if we were just a mediocre offense (say 8-10th in runs scored) instead of a mind-bogglingly awful one (15th).
by jponry on Sep 22, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS+ of 87
Also, why haven't the Giants been able to compete with pitching THIS year?
by rfloh on Sep 22, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
No, the failure of the Giants this season is due almost completely to their lack of scoring. It's not crazy. The Giants are 11th in the NL in bullpen ERA, but the league average ERA is 4.03; the Giants' bullpen is at 4.07.
It looks like the worst bullpen in the world because when they give up the fourth and fifth runs in a game, that's usually a loss for the Giants. When the Phillies' bullpen gives up the fourth and fifth runs in a game, it usually means the game's a little closer.
This team is 8th in all of baseball in ERA, and they're in the running for the worst record in baseball. The Giants have the 3rd-best starting ERA in baseball, yet they're in the running for the worst record in baseball. The offense is to blame for about 90% of this mess, and the bullpen picks up the slack.
by Grant on Sep 22, 2007 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
"underperformed"- (only Durham and Zito disappointed
to any great degree)..wasnt this team picked for last place or close to last place by many/most prognosticators?? Sabean acts like it was a fringe player here or there that could have put them in the hunt, if not for these "underperforming veterans"..
all is not lost(yet)...if you caught his show a few weeks ago he defintitely plans on trading some of the young pitching...so when he's through with his
typical trades, THEN all will be lost...
by slojoe on Sep 22, 2007 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
by rxmeister on Sep 22, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
I don't see why it's surprising that he turned into an idiot. His public pronouncements don't exactly display a great deal of humility, and he got wrapped up in thinking that he knew everything instead of actually trying to learn something new about evaluating players. We see it in Ned Colletti too.
Frankly, I think we'll just see more cringe-worthy transactions from the Giants in the off-season. The only bright side is that playing mediocre young players instead of Bonds will cost them a couple of games, and they might get the #2 pick in next year's draft.
by gdog on Sep 23, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: wow
by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 22, 2007 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
by wilriv21 on Sep 22, 2007 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Agree
Hasn't this year proven the fallacy of our pitching competing without offense to support it? No need to respond as it's a rhetorical question. The answer is yes it has.
by Punch Rockgroin on Sep 23, 2007 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sportsphone McCovey
He's hanging up and listening to comments off the air.
by Moggeee on Sep 23, 2007 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 1:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Aadik on Sep 22, 2007 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
At least in 1985...
by dangjackson on Sep 22, 2007 3:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Sep 22, 2007 4:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's be honest about it
Great ballpark, shame about the team.
by Salemicus on Sep 22, 2007 7:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Let's be honest about it
by Punch Rockgroin on Sep 22, 2007 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tweaking
- Sexson trade. I think this is a possibility and wouldn't be all that upset by it. This would be a salary dump for Seattle, so the trade would almost certainly be tweaked in one of 3 possible ways: 1. We give up only one pitcher. 2. Seattle kicks in a substantial amount of salary(unlikely). 3. Seattle kicks in a good prospect(how does Sexson and Balentien for Hennessey and Sosa sound? Other possibilities would include a young pitcher like Tony Butler or Chris Tillman). Sexson is having a terrible year, but is "only" 33 and hit 34 HR's with a .500+ SLG% as recently as last season. I would expect some rebound, especially back in the NL. We need a 30+ HR guy badly and Sexson is probably the most likely bet other than ARod.
- I still think the Braves are going to be desperate for pitching and they have a surplus of SS's. Sanchez' value is pretty high. How about Sanchez alone for Yunel Escobar?
- Looks like Jeff Kent may have just punched his ticket out of LA. He has one year left on a contract whose option just vested. How about forgetting the Sexson trade entirely and trade Brad Hennessey and Clayton Tanner to the Dodgers for Kent and Nomar? Kent plays 1B for us for one year and Nomar plays 3B.
- Don't see how to wiggle out of signing Torii Hunter. That would be a terrible deal and one that Sabean/Magowan are likely to make. In the short term, I wouldn't mind an OF of Roberts/Davis, Winn and Hunter, with Lewis as the #5 OF and Nate back in Fresno, but the back end would just kill us.
- The bullpen looks like it might be an upgrade. Go for it!
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 22, 2007 10:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tweaking
i will jump on the first plane to the bay and kill Sabean in his sleep.
by Cookyman on Sep 23, 2007 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Idea?
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 23, 2007 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Couple More Ideas
KC needs pitching badly. They have a huge stockpile of AAAA slugging first base types: Craig Brazell, Ryan Shealy, Justin Huber. They just added Wes Bankston to the mix. I don't know if any of those are 6 year FA, but next year's Jack Cust may be hidden in there somewhere. If not, one of those guys could probably be obtained for a Hennessey or a Pat Misch alone.
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 23, 2007 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A Couple More Ideas
by oldjacket on Sep 23, 2007 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tweaking
I'm also with you on Sanchez to the Braves in some capacity, especially for Escobar. I'm not that big on Escobar, but I'm less than convinced about Sanchez ever being more than a reliever.
Bad Dr., though, with Kent and Nomar. Bad! Bad!
And Linebrink is probably broken, but he's in that Armando-seat from 2003, where he's the only name available. Someone's going to regret Linebrink.
by Grant on Sep 23, 2007 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad Dr.
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 23, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tweaking
by sharksrog on Sep 24, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tweaking
by EliminateMe on Sep 24, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
What I'm really afraid of is that Barry's leaving will clear the way for some really bad decisions, like getting Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones.
I would feel so much better if someone other than Sabean were in charge.
by Dan from NM on Sep 23, 2007 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ANDRUW JONES!!!1!1!!!
I get a really strong feeling that since Andruw Jones is having such a terrible year, there's no way Scott Boras will allow him to sign for a multiyear deal anywhere until he can reestablish himself or at least put up better numbers. Throw in the $20 million or whatever to sign him, let him play here for a season. If we tank, we can deal him off at the deadline. If we keep him, we offer him arbitration (once again, Boras won't let it happen), some other team signs him to a huge contract, and we get two compensatory picks for him.
At least, that's what I'm hoping. And this probably would never work.
by Anticon23 on Sep 23, 2007 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
I still think an outfield of Winn, Roberts/Davis, Schierholtz and Lewis would be a nice advantage for the pitching staff.
C - Molina
1B - Burrell
2B - Frandsen
SS - Tejada
3B - Arod
LF - Winn/Roberts
CF - Roberts/Davis
RF - Schierholtz/Lewis
I'd look forward to seeing how that team does.
by Goofus on Sep 23, 2007 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by giantsrainman on Sep 23, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
You are though on the right track with not getting any more outfielders. Outfield is really the only place where we have a shot to develope inhouse impact bats. We are letting Barry go to give ABs to these prospects. It would be counter productive to then go out an sign an outfield bat to now block these prospects.
by giantsrainman on Sep 23, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
You have got to be frakkin kidding me. We are letting barry go to give at bats to a bunch of prospects we dont think will amount to anything. On top of that we are letting the best hitter in the NL go over winn and roberts.
by covenant on Sep 26, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Dunn?
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 23, 2007 9:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Adam Dunn?
If they don't, I wouldn't mind the Giants signing him.
by groug on Sep 23, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Adam Dunn?
by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 23, 2007 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Adam Dunn?
There are rumblings that the Reds might not pick up the option, though, because they're apparently sick of his bad defense and loads of strikeouts.
The Reds != smart
by groug on Sep 24, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Adam Dunn?
Dunn is terrible in the outfield. He has poor range, doesn't get to the ball well, etc. etc. Moving him to the infield doesn't really change that, IMO. the INF is a much faster-paced game, and even players that are incredibly athletic and solid in the OF (see Erstad, Darin and Ortmeier, Dan)admit that playing 1B is not easy to do at all.
Dunn's a future DH. I'd rather keep him in LF, but in a pinch I'd put him at 1B. Let's just say if we had him manning the bag, we'd have to retain Vizquel and Feliz to ensure good throws are made.
by Anticon23 on Sep 25, 2007 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pollyanna
by ektrod on Sep 24, 2007 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You can...
With the possible exception that we might not even have a 1B that can out hit the dessicated corpse of Richie Sexton.
by zenbitz on Sep 25, 2007 10:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mothers, shield your children's eyes
This site is getting absolutely graphic.
by Moggeee on Sep 25, 2007 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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