Nathan wore out his welcome?

by slojoe on Sep 2, 2007 2:58 PM PDT

Am fairly new to this site so if this has been discussed please forgive, but...

Last week on 680, i heard M. Urban trying to float
the opinion that part of the reason Joe Nathan was traded was that he had "worn out his welcome"..

Is this just an S-load of revisionist history?

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Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

yes. The Liriano excuse was that he was always hurt, and this must be the attempt to convince people it wasn't a huge mistake to trade Nathan. Fortunately for them Bonser has had a rough year, otherwise we would probably hear that he was in a men's room with Larry Craig.

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 2, 2007 2:53 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Please, rx... Boof's a journeyman pitcher at best. He's not really a quality arm. Giving him up is like letting Jamey Wright escape without giving him a contract offer. The only difference is Boof never pitched for the big club.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler - I apologize to all the kids out there that look to me as a role model for proper use of movie quotes.

by JRPhillips on Sep 2, 2007 3:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

He had a slightly below average ERA this year but fairly strong peripherals - I'd bet on his success over Noah Lowry's next season.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Sep 2, 2007 3:31 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Not to mention he's pitching in a legaue with a DH and against arguably tougher competition.

by Nathan on Sep 2, 2007 4:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Slightly below average? His ERA this year is 4.95. Just giving up a shade below five runs per nine innings isn't slightly below average, that's bad. And his peripherals? Opponents are batting .288 against him this year, and his K/9 is 7.5, he's given up 180 hits and 57 walks in 160 innings. Last year really wasn't that much better for the guy. Seriously, you want to know how I spell journeyman #5 starter? I spell it B-O-O-F.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 2, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

The average ERA in the American League is 4.89, and that's for starters AND relivers, so a 4.95 is exactly 0.06 points below average.

180 hits + 50 walks in 160 innings = 1.45 WHIP.

Noah Lowry's WHIP? 1.55.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Sep 2, 2007 5:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

That actually leaves out hit batters on Boof's side, so it's 1.48. The point still stands.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Sep 2, 2007 6:01 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

no, really Bonser's a loser, he'll never make it..
and Liriano, he'll be injured the rest of his career..i can almost guarantee it...and my credentials? uh, well

by slojoe on Sep 2, 2007 9:12 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

even if what you say is true, the Twins have already gotten about ten times the value out of that trade than we did.

Liriano could never pitch another inning and he still contributed twice as much to the Twins than AJ did to the Giants (if you measure it in WARP).

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 2, 2007 9:52 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

you noticed my sarcasm, no?

by slojoe on Sep 2, 2007 9:58 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

sorry, guess I fell into the sarchasm ;)

I just have noticed a lot of fans trying to justify the trade by saying "Well, Bonser's not that good and Liriano's injured!" and it's like... yeah, but they've still been more valuable to the Twins than AJ was for us.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Sep 3, 2007 12:27 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I don't know how anybody can defend that trade. You can justify it by looking at the reasons Sabean made that trade, but after the fact it is nothing short of an unmitigated disaster. I defend Sabean alot of the time, but every defense of him starts off with, "except for the AJ trade."

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 3, 2007 8:31 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

On the other board I didn't even put AJ on my Brian Sabean "all-star" moves team of the past five years. That was an oversight on my part. Sure, he should have been able to see that Mike Matheny wasn't really all that better than Yorvit Torrealba and certainly not better than a potential platoon of Torrealba and free agent Gregg Zaun, but is was misfortune that caused Mike not to be able to play out his contract.

But the fact is that over the past five years Sabean has seemed to do the very things that could cause Giants fans to call him an idiot, even though his Matt Williams trade many years before certainly didn't truly make him worthy of such comment.

But just LOOK at the horrible guys the Giants have acquired over the past five years. And that was in great part because Brian was trying to compensate for the REAL problem, which was the lack of a minor-league foundation with which to replenish his team.

by sharksrog on Sep 3, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

^ ^ (this post about Bonser, Liriano was sarcasm)
| |
| |

by slojoe on Sep 5, 2007 10:42 AM PDT up 0 recs

Have you actually bothered

to look at the state of starting pitching around MLB?

The average #5 starter has an ERA+ of about 78. That means, park adjusted, the average #5 starter is about 22 percent below a league average pitcher. 100 is league averge, ~96 is league average for starting pitchers, since relievers have better ERAs.

Bonser's ERA+ this year is 93. That is about what an average #4 starter is. His ERA+ last year was 106. That is a #2 starter. His career ERA+ is 98. That is a #3 starter.

by rfloh on Sep 3, 2007 2:03 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Have you actually bothered

Yes, 100%

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Sep 3, 2007 6:15 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Have you actually bothered

I had no idea that giving up Boof was such a hotbed of dissent amongst Giants fans. I just can't get worked up that we let go of Boof, I don't care how the trade worked out. I mean, he goes by the name Boof, and his numbers aren't impressive. It's not like he's a star in the making. I see an ERA a shade below 5.00 and think, "Not great." Between Lowry's actual success this year and Boof's supposed success that hasn't actually gotten here, I think I'd take Noah Lowry of 2007 over Boof of 2007 and 2006. Not that this is an either/or argument in the first place. I'm just saying it seems a little crazy that so many people are this upset over Boof. Jake particularly seems ready to kill me in hopes I'd be an effigy and Sabes would feel my pain. Just to be clear, Jake... He won't. But seriously, getting this excited over Boof? Boof???

BOOF!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 4, 2007 4:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Have you actually bothered

i dont think Bonser all that, but he's pitched well at times and he's still young, so he could get better...Liriano, what was he? Rookie of the Year and an All-Star in the same year....

and it seems that a lot of people want to downplay
what they've already done and what they could do in the future..and they cant denigrate Joe Nathan's performance on the field, so an Urban tries to attack him in other ways..

by slojoe on Sep 4, 2007 6:06 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Have you actually bothered

I know you're kind of joking, but as I read through this thread, Jake and everyone else have been completely calm and reasonable.

Anyway, the takeaway from all this is not "Boof is great," but rather that you need to recalibrate your sense of what consitutes a valuable pitcher. A guy who can give his team innings and keep his ERA under 5 in the AL may not be a star, but he's contributing. That kind of production would cost six or eight million a year on the free agent market.

by Evan on Sep 5, 2007 7:43 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I dont think anybody really considers batting average against a peripheral. It's the sort of flukish thing that requires us to look at the real peripherals (Ks/9, K:BB and HR) in the first place. Boof's K rate is solid; his walk rate is solid; and I'm too lazy to look up his home runs. But if by journeyman you mean "solid number 3 starter," a guy who is basically worth $9 million/year, and who is working almost for free for the five years the Twins will have him -- well, darn, you got us. I'd sure hate to have that.

I'd bet Bonser has a better ERA+ than Zito over the next four years.

Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz

by lyricalkiller on Sep 4, 2007 5:21 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Agree to disagree. But again... You're getting excited over Boof! I mean... Boof!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 4, 2007 5:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

There was a time when many here were anxiously waiting for Boof to get here.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Sep 4, 2007 8:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Grant is still waiting.

Barry Bombs gear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Sep 4, 2007 11:34 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Boofy's problem this season was yielding more than hit per inning and yielding 1.50 homers per nine.

by sharksrog on Sep 3, 2007 12:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Actually, make that 1.35 homers per nine. The 1.50 was per ten.

Nine,ten -- whatever it takes. :)

by sharksrog on Sep 3, 2007 12:12 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Personally, I'm not really that pissed about sabean trading boof or nathan away. It was seeing Liriano tear it up last year that really got me pissed. The guy looks like he's going to be a Johan Santana clone. Could you imagine our rotation with Liriano in it...holy crap it would definitely be the best in the league.

by sup3rk1ng on Sep 2, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Liriano hasn't thrown a pitch at the major league level this year. If he pitches next season, that's a different story. But I would bet he misses some starts next season, and I'm pretty sure he'll be injured a lot during his career. To me, this guy has Kerry Wood written all over him.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 2, 2007 5:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

and that was my second Craig reference of the day, so that's my allotment. Carry on, everyone else.

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 2, 2007 2:53 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Still, you could start humming and hope that others start tapping their toes.

Angels fly because they take Brian Sabean lightly.

by Mayor of 311 on Sep 2, 2007 5:36 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

well, the guy did blow a playoff game against he marlins in 03. Maybe that's what he was talking about.

by sup3rk1ng on Sep 2, 2007 2:58 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

had 1 year of major league success and pretty much nothing else on his resume. He had an extensive injury history and no evidence to suggest that he would sustain his succeed. Teams trade players like that all the time. It was not really a question of wearing out his welcome.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Sep 2, 2007 3:31 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

It would easier be to make this defense if Sabes had a track record of finding you talent. A few are always going to slip out of one's grasp. Mistakes happen. But if its a one way street (losing young players before they blossom and not raiding similar talent from other teams) I think you can fairly say that they do lousy job at identifying MLB-projectable talent.

by Nathan on Sep 2, 2007 4:40 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Yeah, not really. Have you looked at the pitching side of the Giants roster? It's largely homegrown and largely good. Pitching is not the problem with the Giants farm system.

Steve Kline: Lately, significantly less okay

by groug on Sep 2, 2007 5:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

yeah but youd think we coulda gotten something beyond AJ (Mauerish or even Cuddeyerish prospects come to mind) for that kind of haul

deadhorse

WE FIGHT WARS! WE CHEAT ON OUR SPOUSES! WE LISTEN! TO THE STEVE MILLER BAND! BUT IF;! WE THROW OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING AS GLORIOUS AS BASEBALL ALL IS FORGIVEN!

by nick on Sep 3, 2007 12:30 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Joe struck out a LOT of guys in 2003. He also had two GREAT runs at the beginning and the end of the season, although he was a bit rough in the middle.

I think the Giants were willing to trade him because of his foibles in the 2003 playoffs. Clearly they fell guilty to small samples and placing far too much emphasis on "the clutch."

by sharksrog on Sep 3, 2007 12:14 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I don't know...Nathan was superb for the Giants in 2003. I think what hurt his image in the organization was his performance in the playoffs against the Marlins, causing Felipe to remove him after one batter (if I recall). Classic case of overreacting to one bad outing.

Following the Giants from China

by MattChina on Sep 3, 2007 1:12 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I think you hit the nail on the head here, all the way to China! Brian Sabean overreacted to one playoff series.

by sharksrog on Sep 3, 2007 12:34 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Chalk Joe Nathan up as another casualty of the Felipe years. Felipe just messed with pitcher's heads for some reason. Nathan had fine numbers in 2003, but coming down the stretch and culminating in the playoffs, he just freaked out. He was afraid to throw a strike and finally in the playoff game, he was afraid to even throw a pitch, throwing half-hearted pickoff moves just to avoid having to come to the plate. Felipe took him out in the middle of an AB! You just knew he was done as a Giant, at least as long as Felipe was the manager at that point.

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 2, 2007 4:47 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

the thing is that i remember Felipe that year saying on the radio something to the effect of "Nathan has guts" - then, big suprise, hes less than perfect in the playoffs as an iexperienced pitcher, and they
apparently sour on him and he's dealt...

now this Mychal Urban, who seems a hell of a lot
like a paid shill for the Giants, wants to throw
out this crap like Nathan was a bad apple or
something, which i have never heard...this is the
same Zito apologist who continually defends that
deal, but never bothers to mention the fact that
Zito is directly responsible for putting some decent $$$ coin in his pocket via the book he wrote
a while back...now he's trying to float this load

by slojoe on Sep 2, 2007 9:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Urban is a joke. On Sunday he was on the radio saying we should sign Carlos Guillen in the offseason to play shortstop next year. Uh. Guillen signed a big extension with the Tigers during spring training.

He was also prattling on about how Zito getting some wins lately makes the contract not seem so bad.

He's a moron.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Sep 3, 2007 8:47 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I second that. I've heard some odd rumors about Felipe as a manager. Apparently, he and Schmidt never exchanged more than a dozen words over the entire '03 season. Rather strange that a manager and staff ace are completely incommunicado.

It's a shame Giants brass traded Nathan due to that playoff outing when he clearly was not himself.

Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

by Woody Wins on Sep 2, 2007 9:31 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I remember Felipe being fairly open about the fact that he didn't like to talk to most of his players. Schmidt might have been an extreme case, but I think it was fairly common during his years.

If I'm revisioning history here, somebody please correct me, but this is how I remember it.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Sep 2, 2007 10:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

Open?

Man, that's a new one on me! I mean, that Felipe was open about it, not that he didn't like to talk to his players.

I'm sorry, but in this day and age, there is no excuse for a manager of any business, let alone baseball, to not communicate with team members.

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 2, 2007 10:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Open?

I only remember the joke he made when he pointed to himself and said "Bad communicator"

Steve Kline: Lately, significantly less okay

by groug on Sep 2, 2007 11:10 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Open?

It's in this article

Steve Kline: Lately, significantly less okay

by groug on Sep 2, 2007 11:14 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Open?

Wow. That article is very priceless. More priceless than something that cannot be valued.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Sep 2, 2007 11:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Open?

Sabaen, Alou, a media circus, and no plan. No wonder we won all those pennants.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Sep 3, 2007 8:32 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Michael Urban is fairly retarded. Between his dismissing Bonds' OPS (as reported by intrepid reporter E), and his saying the whole problem with this years team was the bullpen with an argument based solely on how many losses the bullpen had (seriously that was his entire argument), and now this.....I would be quite happy to never hear his voice again.
Nathan wore out his welcome? That's why they traded the guy who should have been the closer in 04 (when the team needed one, I mean they gave the role to Matt Herges for crying out loud)? IF that is true then that would make the worst trade in Giants history even worse than it already was.

"The fact the Giants have 11 free agents concerns Barry." Jeff Borris, last off-season

by thehavenot on Sep 2, 2007 10:01 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

omg....we are still arguing whether this trade was bad or good???

we are arguing based on what boof is doing this season?? (btw, you always must take 1 pt off an al pitchers era)

the trade was the worst in the history of this franchise

ok....maybe the second worst

the perry trade was the worst

but at least that was only one pitcher

by bacci40 on Sep 2, 2007 11:07 PM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

I dunno, the Jack Clark trade wasn't all that great. And don't get me started on the George Foster trade.

Adopting Dave Roberts since 2007

by hometownboy on Sep 3, 2007 1:34 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Don't forget Orlando Cepeda for Ray Sadecki.

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 3, 2007 8:32 AM PDT 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

Scott Linebrink for Doug Henry wasn't very good either, but I usually cut Sabean some slack because it was a deadline deal for relief help he really needed, and Linebrink later hurt his arm and was released by Houston. It was years later before Linebrink became good.

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 3, 2007 8:34 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

You just had to bring that up. Thanks for the Memories Rx. It was bad enough that bacci reminded of Gaylord Perry for Sam McDowell who all of a sudden wasn't very sudden.

The Charlie Williams for Willie Mays was pretty inspiring too. One year after winning the Division. Of course Willie was way done in another year. But still. Rather ignominious.

At least Stoneham and Feeney could claim intoxication as a mitigating factor.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Sep 3, 2007 8:38 AM PDT up 0 recs

Re: Nathan wore out his welcome?

and fitting that Mays beat the Giants with a homerun a couple of days later. That trade is one of the reasons I really hate the Mets. Combine that with when they outright bought our best player, Dave Kingman, from Stoneham's broke ass, and you know why I am rooting for the Phillies big time this September!!

Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Sep 3, 2007 9:47 AM PDT up 0 recs