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Corner Infielders for 2008

As the catchers for next season aren't that divisive i'm adding a discussion for corner infielders as well. Who do people believe should be the starting 1B & 3B for us next year?

Under Contract: Ortmeier, Aurilia
Expiring Contracts: Klesko, Feliz

By other 1B or 3B, it's sensible to be realistic &  think of realistic free agent or trade targets, because we'd all love better corner infielders if possible!

Personally, it depends on what our outfield options are, i'm not overly high on Ortmeier but i'd like to see him get playing time to prove how good he is. If he's not going to get any in the outfield (which he's probably not going to get alot) then i'd like to see him at 1B.

It'd be nice if we could obtain a good young 3B (or 1B) via trade (perhaps for Lowry) but if not there isn't much available in free agency. Neither Aurilia or Feliz would excite me, but either could be ok as reasonable short term stopgaps.

Poll
Who would you like to see as our corner infielders next season?
Klesko & Other 3B
0 votes
Other 1B & Feliz
6 votes
Aurilia & Other 3B (or 1B)
1 votes
Other 1B & Other 3B
30 votes
Ortmeier & Feliz
29 votes
Klesko & Feliz
1 votes
Aurilia & Feliz
0 votes
Ortmeier & Aurilia
6 votes
Klesko & Aurilia
0 votes
Ortmeier & Other 3B
50 votes

123 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Ortmeier will make a nice backup 1B/OF, but I would like to see the Giants trade for brand spanking new starting corner IFs.  It probably won't happen, but that is what I would like.

Carlos Pena and Akinori Iwamura for Lowry and Hennessey?

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Sep 17, 2007 3:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Pena's had a great year, the worry is though, that it's just a career year & he'll fall back to previous form. His OPS is 200 points higher than his next best season & so if we were trading for him i'd want us to realize his limitations (he's more likely a 240/330/470 player).

by GiantFan on Sep 17, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
But i agree, we obviously need new corner infielders for the future (the sooner the better obviously)

by GiantFan on Sep 17, 2007 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I would still rather take a chance that Pena will put up good numbers in '08, even if they're not as good as this year.  It's less risky than starting Ort and hoping he can hang at this level, and a huge upgrade over Klesko/Aurilia.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Sep 17, 2007 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
we should've made that trade four months ago.
WE FIGHT WARS! WE CHEAT ON OUR SPOUSES! WE LISTEN! TO THE STEVE MILLER BAND! BUT IF;! WE THROW OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING AS GLORIOUS AS BASEBALL ALL IS FORGIVEN!

by nick on Sep 17, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Thats fer true.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Sep 17, 2007 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Outside the box
A-Rod.  
Vote for Pedro...to be DFA'd!

by W8ingForATitle on Sep 17, 2007 3:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Outside the box
Yeah, where's the ARod - Ortmeier option? I want to vote for that.

by Sayhey on Sep 17, 2007 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
This was the easiest poll question:

I will summarize:

Crap-Crap?
Crap-Other?
Other-Other?

by zenbitz on Sep 17, 2007 4:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
You forgot "Other-crap."
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 17, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Yeah, it wasn't the most well-thought out poll ever!

by GiantFan on Sep 17, 2007 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
If his option isn't picked up, Dunn for first base!!!

as for 3rd, trade pitching for a young, MLB ready hitter (if they exist).  If not, i guess Feliz if he bats 8th.

Don't throw balls, grow balls. Pitch to Barry.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Sep 18, 2007 12:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Wow, I guess the competition the 8th spot in the batting order is going to be pretty fierce next year.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Sep 18, 2007 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

errr....
...competition FOR the 8th spot....
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Sep 18, 2007 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
They're going to experiment with having three leadoff hitters and four #8 hitters next year. (Actually five if Bonds doesn't come back.)
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in San Jose.

by EliminateMe on Sep 18, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I can't believe the Reds would be as stupid as to not pick up his option & let him leave for nothing!

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Why in the world would the Reds not pick up Adam's option?

by sharksrog on Sep 18, 2007 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I read somewhere the red's GM said that there was a strong possibility they wouldn't a while back.
Don't throw balls, grow balls. Pitch to Barry.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Sep 19, 2007 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I hope they don't pick up his option, but that'd be a very stupid move on the Reds part if they don't!

by GiantFan on Sep 19, 2007 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Mike Lowell at 3B and Ortmeier at 1B with Aurilia as the CI backup.  Any and all plans for A-Rod should be at SS with Frandsen at 2B and Durham as the MI backup (Frandsen to SS on the rare days A-Rod is out).  

No to re-signing Feliz!
No to re-signing Vizquel!
No to re-signing Klesko!  

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 1:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
First of all, Lowell for anything more than two years is a disaster contract, bcause he's having a career year in his decline phase and will command serious cash. = bad combination = last four Brian Sabean offseasons.

Also, he won't want less than three years. So, the alternative is Pedro!

Second of all, you should play A-Rod at shortstop if you want severely diminished range at the position followed by an injured superstar. ANY pipedreadm plans for the guy have to be at third.

Third of all, oh yeah I mentioned pipedream already. Well, that'll cover it, then.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2007 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
In otherwords you just want to suck for as long as possible to insure that we are never any good during the remaining years of Cain's contract.  Because this is how long any other path to rebuilding our offense is going to take other then free agency.  Bottom line, you want Sabean to fail just so you can shout that you were right and he should have been fired.  

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what he means.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Sep 18, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Because this is how long any path to rebuilding our offense is going to take PERIOD.

Now your post works.

by awesomer on Sep 18, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Horseshit!  The 2007 Giants are in better overall shape then the 1996 Giants and the 1996 Giants turned it around in just one year!

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
1996 Giants Team OPS+, 99. Runs Scored, 752
2007 Giants Team OPS+, 88. Runs Scored, 627 (and counting, but with 12 games left they probably ain't gonna reach 700)

Take out Barry Bonds in 2008, and watch that 88 sink.

by awesomer on Sep 18, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Once again (just like all the rest of the Sabean haters) all you are looking at is offense.  Why don't you compare the 1996 pitching staff with the 2007 pitching staff?  Why don't you look at the amount of improvement in the 1997 Offense and Pitching to the likely amount of improvement in the 2008 Offense and Pitching.  What matters is not how many runs we end up scoring in 2008 but how much we improve our run differential by the combination of more runs scored and fewer runs given up.  What also matter is how much we improve the intagable of scoring the runs that matter and not giving up the runs that matter.  

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
If the Giants have a turnaround this winter that equals the one they put on in 1997, I'll take you out for a steak dinner.

by sharksrog on Sep 18, 2007 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe we were talking about offensive rebuild
So you're correct in that all I did was look at offense, because that's all I was talking about.

by awesomer on Sep 19, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Once again, giantsrainman has exposed our secret agenda. We don't care about the Giants, that's just a front for our Brian Sabean Haters Club. Irrational hatred for Brian Sabean is behind our every utterance.

We might as well give up the facade, guys. Giantrainman is on to us.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in San Jose.

by EliminateMe on Sep 18, 2007 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
No to re-signing Feliz!
No to re-signing Vizquel!
No to re-signing Klesko!  

And NO to signing A-Rod!

Brian Anderson: converting saves and dominating as best he can.

by Anticon23 on Sep 18, 2007 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Where are we going to get the money from to pay Rodriguez & Lowell though? Presumably, we wouldn't be resigning Bonds, but we'd still have to find something like $20M extra in salary to pay for them.

And even if we could create that space by offloading contracts, would we have enough ability to fit around them & be any better than this year?

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Just not true.  We only have 59.85M commited for next year, 54.75M commited for 2009, and 38.55M commited for 2010.  These commitments clearly allow for $40M/year to be spent on A-Rod and Lowell.

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Fair enough, lets say we could make the finances work, we could persuade them to sign and ignoring the long term ramifications, is that team going to be a contender next season?

I'm not sure adding A-Rod & Lowell(the one we'd get rather the career year version) but subtracting Bonds, Feliz, Klesko & Vizquel suddenly turns this team into a contender.

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hate to say it, but
You might as well just say subtracting Bonds...

But yeah, A-Rod would cover the loss of Bonds and then some, but Lowell would only be a moderate improvement over Feliz unless you expect him to repeat a career year in his decline phase at a park that would depress his stats, and otherwise we're the exact same team with significantly less money available over the next 5 years.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2007 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
A-Rod is 30% better the Bonds because he provides the same level of production with 30% more playing time.  Lowell's Career average production is 30% better the Feliz's and therefore he too is a 30% improvement.  

So the questions remaining are how will Ortmeier and Schierholtz production compare to Klesko and Vizquel?  I find it hard to believe that their combined performance will not be considerably better since is is so easy to be better the what we got from Vizquel.  If I were a betting man I would bet that Ortmeier will match what we got from Klesko and Schierholtz will give us another 30% improvement over Vizquel.  

The result of all of this is that we will have improved in 3 offensive positions (including two heart of the order positions) by 30% each.  This improvement shculd be enough to increase our run scoring by at least 10% if not more.  In addiition, our young pitching should only get better in 2008.  I would say that it would be very reasonable to expect at least a 5% improvement in run prevention if not more.  This combined would result in a 15% plus run differential improvement.  This should be more then enough to make us instant playoff contenters in 2008!

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I'm sorry, but numbers like "a 30% improvement" don't really mean a lot.

I don't think it's safe to assume our young pitching will get better next year, there's no reason to suggest Lincecum or Cain are suddenly going to get better, Lowry is probably due for a downturn & Correia or Sanchez are unproven.

The defence will obviously be worse, with Feliz & Vizquel gone. But neither of those are the issue, the issue is the offense.

A-Rod will replace Bonds production & more, but will still suffer from being pitched around every time.

Lowell will be an improvement on Feliz offensively, but isn't going to produce much worse numbers than this year, due to him coming down from a career year & moving to a less friendly ballpark.

It's unlikely that Ortmeier will match Klesko's production, you're assuming alot about his continued performance.

You're also assuming that Schierholtz will perform at the same level, which is quite a big assumption.

Looking at the side offensively you have:

Right side of infield: Ortmeier & Frandsen/Durham
Left side of infield: A-Rod & Lowell
Outfield: Schierholtz, Roberts & Winn

Does that look like a great side to you? The left side of the infield is obviously strong, but the outfield & the right side of the infield are both below average, even assuming that Shierholtz & Ortmeier can perform to a high standard!

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Ok, you can't figure out how to quantify percentage improvement.  Then let us look at Runs Created.  In 2007 the Runs Created for A-Rod, Bonds, Lowell, and Feliz have been A-Rod 155, Bonds 100, Lowell 104, and Feliz 58.  Therefore in 2007 A-Rod and Lowell have produced 259 runs while Bonds and Feliz have produced just 158 runs.  I will buy that it is not reasonable to expect this 101 run difference to apply to 2008 so lets cut it in half to just 50 runs.  With this 50 runs we now need to just get another 20 runs on top of Vizquel's 43 runs created in 2007 to score 10% more runs in 2008.  Do you really think it will be that hard for Sheirholtz to hit well enough to create 63 runs over 600 PAs?

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
But this is not a 1-1 comparison between Bonds and Feliz and A-Rod and Lowell.

Because A-Rod and Lowell play in more games than Bonds and Feliz, of course they are going to have a ton more runs. You really have to cover the difference by including Bonds's replacements. That would cut your "adjusted" 50 runs to something like 20 or 30, which means the 20 extra runs you're looking for from Schierholtz would have to be something like 40-50 extra runs. And that could be pretty hard.

I've come to this conclusion using the same logic that you are showing in coming to yours. Would you say that's a fair assessment?

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2007 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
The playing time for Lowell and Feliz is about the same.  Yes, Bonds plays less then A-Rod and this playing time difference is part of why I cut the 101 run advantage in half.  By cutting it in half I account for both this playing time and reductions in performance for A-Rod and Lowell.  If your are projecting any further reduction in performance for A-Rod and Lowell you are being far to negative in your assumptions.  So no, Schierholtz doesn't have to out produce Vizquel by 40 or 50 runs he just has to out produce Vizquel by 20 runs or if you prefer out produce Feliz by 5 runs.

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
That's one of the main problems with RC, it's dependent totally on playing time. There are adjustments you can make, such as RC27 (How many runs a linup of nine equal players would score)

If calculated the difference in runs scored per game between our team this year & our team this year without Bonds & Feliz but with A-Rod & Lowell instead (i took Lowells RC27 from last year instead of this, due to his career year) It works out as 0.09 runs a game. In other words, we'd have scored around 13 more runs at this stage of the season. Now that's an improvement & would have taken us from 29th in MLB to joint 28th but i wouldn't call it a substantial one!

Also, it doesn't take into account park affects, defence, etc.

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Don't forget to take into consideration the lineups they are playing in.  Both of those teams are absolute powerhouses, and naturally they'll score a lot of runs.  That does NOT mean those runs will translate here.
Brian Anderson: converting saves and dominating as best he can.

by Anticon23 on Sep 18, 2007 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Runs Created is lineup independent.  It is a forumla that uses OBP and SLG in an otherwise MLB average lineup.

by giantsrainman on Sep 18, 2007 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I'm pretty sure adding Lowell and Alex WON'T make the Giants a contender in 2008 if Bonds is gone.

by sharksrog on Sep 18, 2007 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Why?  

A-Rod and Lowell have produced 259 runs thus far this year while Bonds and Feliz have only produced 158.  It should also be reasonalbe to expect Schierholtz, Ortmeier, and Frandsen to produce at least 20 more runs in 2008 then Klesko, Durham, and Vizquel produced in 2007.  This is a net potential run increase of 121 and I
am only planing on getting 70 of these runs.

I think it is also reasonable to expect out young pitching to mature enough to give u0 35 less runs in 2008 resulting in an improvement of 105 runs in our run differential from 2007 to 2008.  This improvement (based on 2007 numbers) would actually place the Giants right with the Padres for number one in the NL!

by giantsrainman on Sep 19, 2007 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
I'm leaning more and more toward just signing a bunch of replacement players for every expired or dumped contract. Is Shane Falco available? Kevin Costner?
Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2007 8:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Forget it -- I played against Costner in high school. His OPS was CRAP!
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Sep 18, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Corner Infielders for 2008
Your idea of replacement-level players seems to be a good one.  The only problem with it is that the money saved isn't likely to be able to buy anything of serious value -- at least not anywhere near what is needed.

The free agent class is thin, and the Giants don't have much to trade.  Maybe they will get lucky.  Being very lucky seems to be what it would take to make the Giants a competitor in 2008.

by sharksrog on Sep 18, 2007 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
I guess you haven't seen The Replacements.

Or Bull Durham, Field of Dreams, For Love of the Game, or the Bodyguard.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 19, 2007 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hmmm
lol Shane Falco
Steve Kline: Pretty okay, but only on a whole season basis and not based on what he's doing now.

by groug on Sep 19, 2007 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm . . .
BP's article "Wait 'till Next Year," about the state of the Pirates, brings up an intriguing idea.  So I thought it'd be a good thing to bring up:

Would you deal Jonathan Sanchez in a package to Pittsburgh for Adam LaRoche and Jose Bautista?

Brian Anderson: converting saves and dominating as best he can.

by Anticon23 on Sep 18, 2007 12:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hmmm . . .
That is an interesting trade proposal. It'd depend on what i could get elsewhere for Sanchez, but yes i think i'd do that deal. I'm not as high on Sanchez as others though!

by GiantFan on Sep 18, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In regards to Ortmeier,
Wasn't Sabean very noncommittal with Ortmeier being the everyday 1B, or am I just imagining that?

I swear someone quoted him off KNBR or something.

Brian Anderson: converting saves and dominating as best he can.

by Anticon23 on Sep 18, 2007 8:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: In regards to Ortmeier,
He was, but in the context it sounded a lot more like he was just reasonably not being very high on Ortmeier as any kind of first baseman in the long term rather than Ortmeier as the first baseman for one year in 2008 while we don't have anybody better.

I've noticed Brian doesn't do a very good job of actually saying the words that he means. I tend to have to do some work with context and tone just to see what the guy is actually getting at.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 18, 2007 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: In regards to Ortmeier,
The last five seasons Brian hasn't done a very good job of accomplishing what he wants, either.  Think the two could be interrelated?

by sharksrog on Sep 18, 2007 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mike Lowell?
Mike Lowell????

MIKE LOWELL?!?!??!?!#!?!@#?#

Uh. no.

by zenbitz on Sep 19, 2007 9:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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