Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2007 4:44 PM PDT Comment 20 comments

OGC put out a poll with the following introduction:

"His statement, quote, was "Most everyone seems to recognize that the rebuilding of this team is going to take a long time. It's a process that should've started in earnest after the 2002 season."

Do people really believe that? That would mean that you are rebuilding:

the season after going to the World Series,
one season after signing Bonds to a huge contract, and
after two of the best seasons ever by a ballplayer, Boof either relegates Bonds to a rebuilding program that will most likely last to the end of his contract OR trade Bonds as part of the rebuilding program."

However, the way he summarized the "rebuild" is not the way it meant. The original point was not to tear the team apart following the 2002 season nor to trade Bonds, but rather look at the accumulated age of the 2002 team and beginning the process of accumulating young position player talent in the minor leagues so that it would be ready for the ML today and in the near future to replace the aging set of veterans that we now have.

Now that you know what was really meant by "starting the rebuilding process in earnest after the 2002 season", how would you vote now?

Poll

Should the "rebuild" - as I defined it - begun in earnest after the 2002 season?

YES

12 votes

NO

13 votes

25 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

That seems kind of a slanted question. Basically you're asking, should the front office be doing its job? The obvious answer is yes.

Is there some time that the organization should not be accumulating young position player talent in the minors?

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in San Jose.

by EliminateMe on Sep 12, 2007 4:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Only one day every year

Veteran's Day.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 12, 2007 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

EXACTLY. That is the underlying theme of what I've been trying to get across. The management has not been accumulating young position players in the minor leagues despite the fact that, at the ML level, every position player was approaching the downside of their careers after the 2002 season. Management chose to either punt 1st round draft picks (3 times - Tucker, Durham & Vizquel) in order to sign free agents or use their picks to accumulate pitching at the expense of position players. Now we're faced with a dearth of offensive talent in our minor leagues and 7 position players to replace in the ML. It's mismanagement on a grand scale of the organization's resources by the Giants management.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Sep 12, 2007 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

Who are you, the Harbinger of Obvious?
We MCC faithful have been bashing Sabean since the Matt Williams trade (lucky bastard) and JT Snow signing.

by zenbitz on Sep 13, 2007 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

But I liked J.T. Snow...

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 13, 2007 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

What, do you hate offense?

JT Snow and Jeff Kent are the same age.
Snow had 2 years out of 15 in which he out-hit Kent WHO IS A MIDDLE INFIELDER.

Snow was the worst regular position player in baseball from 1995-2005. Note the qualfier of "regular" - everyone else worse lost their starting job).

2nd place? Eric Karros.

by zenbitz on Sep 14, 2007 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

in which he out-hit Kent WHO IS A HALL OF FAMER

fyp

Snow was a good player from 1997-2000. I can't hold responsible for the fact that the Giants kept running him out there year after year even when he was past his prime.

by Evan on Sep 14, 2007 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

Well except 1998. And his best year was 2004.

I refuse to back down on this. JT Snow was part of the problem. The fact that he was somewhat adequate for a couple years only reinforces the idiocy that makes people think they can turn Dan Ortmier into anything better than Scott Spezio Lite.

by zenbitz on Sep 16, 2007 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

There was a short time when JT was a very good hitter, and when he wasn't there was a time when the Giants had a lineup that had the luxury of being able to make up for a weak hitting 1B. Because of this, there was a very limited time when his bat was actually killing us.

Plus, he was very likable as a person and played stunning defense. I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 14, 2007 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

I wasn't the least bit worried about the Matt Williams trade, and at the time he was traded, he was probably my favorite active Giant.

by sharksrog on Sep 14, 2007 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

Because I respect you shark... I actually tried to reconstruct this.

Matt Williams was 1 year removed from some MONSTER seasons (>600SLG), Including a MVP-worth OPS+ of 176.

Kent was 2B with an OK stick and bad glove reputation.

The key here is that Kent was (and still is, I guess) 3 years younger than Matty.

But NO ONE predicted Kent would blossom into a near-HOF in his 30s.

by zenbitz on Sep 14, 2007 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

Kent's not near. He's in.

First ballot, even if he retired two years ago.

by Moggeee on Sep 16, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

fine, replace Kent with Ray Durham.

Ray Durham, career OPS+ 103 (including this wretched 2007)

JT Snow, career OPS+ 106.

Snow can not, nor could he ever, hit will enough to be a legitimate starting 1B in the major leagues*

* Except in 1997 and 2004.

by zenbitz on Sep 17, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to talk about a rebuilding program if you're just talking about what they should do every year. Sabean should have begun rebuilding not after 2002 but after 1996.

Our current lack of farm-raised position players has as much to do with poor draft choices as it does with philosophy. True, most of their top draft choices have been pitchers, but that's true across the league - most years, pitchers make up around 2/3 of the first round. Some of the position players that Sabean drafted in the first three rounds include Dan McKinley, Tony Torcato, Arturo McDowell, Chris Magruder, Sean McGowan, Niekro, Linden, Julian Benevitez, and Todd Jennings. (Also Lewis, Ortmeier, and Schierholtz, who are just arriving, and EME and John Bowker, who might yet get here.)

Digression: in 98 they picked Torcato and McDowell while Brad Wilkerson, Aaron Rowand and Adam Dunn were all still available. Imagine how different this conversation could be with no change in philosophy, only some better choices that one year...

Punting a draft pick for Michael Tucker was inexcusable and has been thoroughly eviscerated here many times before.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in San Jose.

by EliminateMe on Sep 13, 2007 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

Yup. We slashed, gashed, and mashed that move.

And we're always ready to hash through it again...

by Moggeee on Sep 16, 2007 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

According to the Giants past plan, I believe they should not have been accumulating young talent since approximately 1990.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 12, 2007 5:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rebuilding the GIants: Hindsight (Version 2)

I vote that the extended debate we had on the other thread is a lot more interesting than a poll.

by Evan on Sep 12, 2007 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And Behold!

Barry is indeed in the middle of a rebuilding project that will most likely last until the end of his contract. Well , SOME contract. The trade aspect? Ehh...

Waiting breastlessly for the Resurrection , hoping I didn't just kill it. Again.

by victor frankenstein on Sep 12, 2007 6:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Brian Sabean Votes 'YES"

One of my favorite quotes, from the 2003 Prospect Handbook:

"In Game 7 of te World Series last fall, the Giants did not have a position player in the field younger than 30...GM Brian Sabean says the Giants need to get younger, and that the time should be coming when the farm system is finally ready to start cranking out players who will be ready for the big leagues."

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Sep 12, 2007 7:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs