Walks and the Giants

by JRPhillips on Sep 11, 2007 11:28 AM PDT Comment 19 comments

Noah Lowry led the league in walks (now third overall). Matt Cain is fifth in walks given up and Barry Zito is currently 7th. Lincecum is tied for 19th. It seems there are very few pitchers on this team capable of not not issuing walks on a frustrating pace.

Is this a function of the team, or of the individual? It seems oddly coincidental that everyone on the Giants has such high walk totals, so I'd think we might want to look for a common denominator. Any thoughts?

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Re: Walks and the Giants

Might have something to do with them throwing a lot of pitches in nearly every start.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Sep 11, 2007 11:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Bonds makes them do it.

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Sep 11, 2007 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Aren't Giants pitchers among the league leaders in not giving up HR's? I'm just wondering if they have a team philosophy of not giving in to hitters and not throwing pitches down the middle of the plate, thus a continuation of the Russ Ortiz nibbling syndrome?

I've often wondered what Rags tells the pitchers when he goes out to the mound. Most of us would probably say something like "just throw strikes, dammit!" Maybe Rags goes out and says something like "whatever you do, don't give up a bomb, don't give into the hitter." It takes 4 walks to produce the same number of runs that one dinger produces. Of course, the stakes keep going up as the runners on base increase, but you are still probably better off to give up another walk than give up a 3 run HR.

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 11, 2007 11:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

True, but a lot of multiple run dingers can come off from a pitcher walking batters. I think JR was getting at Rhighetti. I don't really know enough to judge one way or another, but I know I don't like it and it needs to change. If we challenge hitters and they beat us, then maybe some of our pitchers aren't really that good.

If we are walking power hitters, fine. But there is no reason to walk slap hitters, especially speedy ones that destory us on the basepaths.

When it comes down to it, if there is a line between walking a batter and giving in, I would try to ride it as close as possible.

Brian Wilson for Closer!

by BawLa on Sep 11, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Not just slap hitters, either -- early in the season at least, Giants pitchers were walking the opposing pitcher at an alarming rate. Not sure what the strategy was behind that.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Sep 11, 2007 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

I'm not necessarily getting at Rags, just curious if anyone has any insight on the walks issue. Sometimes it seems like a complete loss of command or focus, sometimes it's just nibbling too much... I don't know, I've never pitched an inning in my life.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Sep 11, 2007 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nibbling

Some of it is due to lapses in command, but a lot of it is nibbling. I'm starting to think that nibbling is an organizational philosophy with the rationale being avoidance of the knockout blow longball.....if you keep nibbling long enough, someone will eventually chase something out of the zone or hit the pitch you want them to and you wiggle out of it with minimal damage. The alternative would be to challenge every hitter and hope that any longballs you give up are of the solo variety.

Someone earlier made the comment that if a pitcher challenges the hitter and they hit too many HR's, maybe that pitcher isn't very good. Well, how many pitchers are there that can get away with that. You are never going to have a rotation of 5 HOF'ers.

The Giants have the 4'th best ERA in the NL. They are next to worst in walks allowed and no great shakes in K's. The one thing that stands out is they are great at not allowing HR's. Hey, if that strategy can get a mediocre staff the 4'th lowest ERA, why wuold you want them to prove their mediocrity by giving up a bunch of HR's?

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 11, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Nibbling

Actually IF
a) It's a coaching/org philosophy to trade walks for HRs
AND
b) SF staff has a lower ERA (actually RA is much better) than one would expect from their component stats (HR/9 BB/9 H/9 K/9).
AND
c) b) is actually real and a statistical fluke

THEN:

d) This is a competitive advantage, and coaching staff should be COMMENDED, not ridiculed!

by zenbitz on Sep 14, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

113 HRs given up

Only the Padres are better with 100. 3.7 BBs / G. Only Florida is worse.

by rfloh on Sep 11, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: 113 HRs given up

I wonder where the Giants rank in terms of total runs given up on HRs?

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in San Jose.

by EliminateMe on Sep 11, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: 113 HRs given up

A better stat might be average runs given up per homerun?

Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

by howtheyscored on Sep 11, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

I wonder about this too -- are all the walks part of a plan, or are they just a side effect of the fact that we have a lot of young pitchers, and young pitchers tend to be wild? If it is a plan, it's probably not a good one, especially at home, where the park helps to keep home run totals down.

It's interesting that Kevin Correia seems to have taken just the opposite approach, and that Barry Zito has become a strike-throwing machine in his last few starts. Coincidence, or is the philosophy changing?

by Evan on Sep 11, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Yes, regarding Zito: 7 walks total in his last five starts. The cool thing is that even though he's not walking people, he's not getting hit either; 16 hits during that time. For those of you keeping trachk at home, that's a WHIP of .66.

I don't not believe!

Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

by Goofus on Sep 11, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

The few walks he gave up on saturday were kind of sheisty on the part of the umps too. Zito is definitely rolling right now.

Pedro Feliz: He kinda hits home runs?

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Sep 11, 2007 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Lowry's first year was like 28 bb in 92 IP, but his
walk rate getting progressively worse

by slojoe on Sep 11, 2007 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Until the Giants can put together a decent lineup and put a real closer on the mound, I'm not going to worry about anything their rotation does.

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Sep 11, 2007 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

The Giants have been peppering the leader board for a decade, although mostly its the usual suspects (Sean Estes and Russ Ortiz have finished in the league's Top 5 in walks 6 times each, including 1 & 2 in 99, 3 & 4 in 00, and 2 & 3 in '04 with other teams). Perhaps its more a matter or organizational tolerance of a certain type of pitcher profile. Of course, the starters make the top of the charts, but I tend to agree with Felipe that it's an unpardonable sin for relievers to come in and start issuing walks, and we seem to have huge groups of guys who do that every year.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Sep 11, 2007 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

I went out to watch Zito pitch against the Pirates and he walked the first three guys he faced in the first inning.

I was upset.

I'm still upset.

Just one time before I die

by Katman on Sep 11, 2007 1:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Walks and the Giants

Its not just walks. Its the counts, the pitches per batter, and the pitches per inning too.

There was some talk about this at the beginning of the season here. Some of it is organizational philosophy. Some of it is pitcher type. With the Giants one never knows. They just seem to be a franchise that has gotten off track in the last few years.

They've gone from being focused on being the best to being competitive to being embroiled in one Barry mediafust after all-star game promotion after manager controvery after old guys falling apart in front of everybody's eyes to sniping at one another in the clubhouse. Three straight years of being underwhelming will do that. Most of the wheels have come off, and I don't think they're going to spend a whole lot of time looking to rethink they're pitching philosophy. At least I don't see any evidence of that.

All one has to do is to look around the stadium the last couple of nights. Looked like Dolphin Stadium in places. And thats with Bonds in the lineup. Against a contending team. I think this team is going to be in Code Blue mode in the offseason and not contemplating corrective cosmetic surgery on its pitching staff.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Sep 12, 2007 7:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs