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Bonds and his alleged use of you know what

Lets assume all the rumors are true. My question and it is not meant to sound like a rhetorical question; if this stuff i.e. The Cream, "Flax seed oil" or some kind of goop made a significant difference in his home run total, how potent could it be if it wasn't detected?

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Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
This diary makes no sense.

If we assume the rumors are true then Bonds took illegal steroids to help him gain an unfair advantage over players who did not use illegal steroids.  I don't see how the potency or detectability would make it better or worse.

On that note what makes you think that the "strength" of a steroid is what makes it able to be detected?

What you are forgetting is that up until recently MLB basically did jack shit to make sure its players aren't using...

by MLWhiteSF on Aug 4, 2007 3:21 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
My heartfelt apologies for coming up with a witless question, but my point; even though the substance was "illegal or whatever it was...if it wasn't that potent maybe it had no effect on the home run total what's so ever. And the vile treatment he has been receiving is not only misplaced, but bordering on racism.

by Buzzword on Aug 4, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
According to most steroid experts I've read on T-Nation, not very potent at all. Topical ointments like "The Cream" have very little if any effect outside of local treatment. "The Clear" from what I've read could certainly help a female athlete, especially for endurance, but would have very little effect on a male, especially in regards to strength gains.

by mxmob33 on Aug 4, 2007 3:22 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
Is the clean and the cream the only PEDs Bonds has been suspected/accused of taking?  I thought the HGH was supposedly a big part of his growth spurt.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 4, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
the key is recovery time.  Bonds came back from his 1999 injury (the point at which he is assumed to have started using roids) in less than three months - I'm in absolutely no position to argue whether this was a fast or slow or normal recovery time but if I understand what I've read, the idea is that the drugs would have helped him come back (much? not much?) faster than he otherwise would have.

This is less likely, but still possibly, applicable to his 2005 injury as well.  Or perhaps it explains why he was out for nearly the full season?

WE FIGHT WARS! WE CHEAT ON SPOUSES! WE LISTEN TO THE STEVE MILLER BAND! BUT IF WE THROW OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING GLORIOUS AS BASEBALL ALL IS FORGIVEN!" -PECOTA

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 5, 2007 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
the reason it wasn't detected was that it was a new steroidal formula developed especially for Balco. Major league baseball wasn't testing at the time for this new compound. And even if he had used traditional steroids, he could pass the test anyway due to the use of masking agents and the steroid process called cycling, where they get the effects of the drug all year long, but don't have to take it all year long.
Randy Messenger says,"Boch, you got me in the bullpen, and you're bringing in Vinnie Choke??"

by rxmeister on Aug 4, 2007 4:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
Rxmeister is correct in that the clear could not be detected because it was an exotic, anabolic substance that chemists had yet to create a test for.  However he would not have automatically passed a steroid test because of cycling. Some steroids can stay in your system for up to 16 months.  You do not get their effects when you are not using them.  If you are not careful, you can actually have the opposite effect, and have decreased testosterone. A topical steroidal cream can have an effect on a male subject, you would have to use a very large dose to have any real effect. From what I understand wasn't "the clear" a oral steroid. The clear would boost recovery time and strength levels.  To answer the original question "potency" has nothing to failing a steroid test.  If you are ingesting or injecting exogenous testosterone, you will fail the test because your epi-testosterone levels will not match up with your blood testosterone levels.

by laxfan24 on Aug 4, 2007 5:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
Basically any steroid (or at least the ones in discussion) contains the chemical compound testosterone, or some sort of derivative that mimics the function of testosterone.  Testosterone has a certain chemical "blueprint" for the sake of conversation.  To make them different, steroids are then fixed with other chemicals to make them balanced and to make them function differently.  

With that said, the only way to "detect" a new steroid, is to know exactly what other chemicals are attached to the testosterone base chemical.  The only way they are able to test for the known steroids is because they know exactly what the "blueprint" looks like.  So the only reason why the clear and the cream were undetectable is because 1. the testers did not know exactly what chemicals to look for, and 2. because there were no syringes or other signs of traditional steroid use.

It then becomes apparant that, because you can fix countless different chemicals to the original testosterone, it will be close to impossible to ever get rid of steroid use.  People will always look for an edge, and people will always keep making new ones to sell to those people looking for an edge.

The real question you should be asking is why other steroid users do not hit as many home runs.  And why the only other big steroid users that were not pitchers or minor leaguers were guys like Sosa and McGuire - guys who were home run hitters before the steroids.  

Barry has exceptional hand-eye coordination, pitch recognition, his father helped Barry by studying pitchers and he learned from that.  He was raised in a baseball family and had great players around him his whole life (you could make an argument against that for the last couple years...).  Barry was basically destined to be a great baseball player, but his attitude made him destined to be despised.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 4, 2007 7:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
"The real question you should be asking is why other steroid users do not hit as many home runs.  And why the only other big steroid users that were not pitchers or minor leaguers were guys like Sosa and McGuire - guys who were home run hitters before the steroids."
  1. the others aren't as good as Barry
  2. Sosa pre-steroids was a high-strikeout, maybe 20-HR a year kinda guy.  As for McGwire, there is no pre-steroid McGwire, at least not at the MLB level.  Jose Canseco may be a pathetic scumbag but I have no reason to doubt his claims of being a steroid guru - the kind who absolutely would have provided his young teammate McGwire the tools he needed to Bash(tm) more HRs than any rookie ever in a year with more HRs than any season ever...
WE FIGHT WARS! WE CHEAT ON SPOUSES! WE LISTEN TO THE STEVE MILLER BAND! BUT IF WE THROW OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING GLORIOUS AS BASEBALL ALL IS FORGIVEN!" -PECOTA

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 5, 2007 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
  1. True, but at least one confirmed user hit 500 HR - Palmeiro.
  2. Now I agree that the circumstantial evidence against Sosa is quite strong, at least as strong as against Barry (note Barry's continued excellence after testing, while Sosa has gone into the toilet).  But Sosa has not tested positive, and given the defense against rampant speculation about Barry, we owe Sosa at least a modicum of doubt about his alleged use.  Also, the implied claim that steroids alone can simply add 30-40+ HR to a guy's totals aren't supported by the facts.  Wouldn't we see a bunch of 5 HR guys hitting 30 if that were the case?  10 HR guys hitting 40-50?  Was Sosa aided by steroids?  It is certainly possible, but I highly doubt that steroids were responsible for taking him from 20 HR to 66 HR.  The guy's talent had a lot more to do with it.
Also:  Alex Rodriguez has a long way to go.  He wouldn't be the first guy to fall apart at 35, 36, 37 years old.  Remember when Griffey was a rock-solid bet to hit 755?  Alex better hope he stays healthy.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 5, 2007 5:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
To be fair to Sosa, no matter what he did or didn't do with PEDs, he actually became a much better hitter when his stats started to go up. Patienc, contact, and approach all vastly improved, none of which could have been done supplementally.

So even if e did use something, it was still his own hard work that made him a "good" hitter.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 5, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
absolutely true.  I don't know how widespread the misconception is that PEDs make it particularly easy to rise to the top... the guys who are argued to have elevated their game with drugs all worked their asses off, whether in the batting cage or the weight room - Bonds in particular was just about the hardest-working man in the Show.  Maybe laziness was what held Marvin Benard back... him being on all the same drugs and everything
WE FIGHT WARS! WE CHEAT ON OUR SPOUSES! WE LISTEN! TO THE STEVE MILLER BAND! BUT IF;! WE THROW OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING AS GLORIOUS AS BASEBALL ALL IS FORGIVEN!

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 5, 2007 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sosa never tested positive for steroids
But he certainly tested positive for corked bat-itis.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 5, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bonds and his alleged use of you know what
Yeah, one guy with a huge single-year spike that he didn't come close to replicating.

That is a real outlier and hardly proves anything.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 6, 2007 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lemme try something here...
 http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/03/16/065400.php

wow , it worked.

   I was saying to myself for the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th time (trying to keep myself convinced) that "I doan' know nothin' but that he worked out like a monster and the big head is just what comes from knowing you're Barry Bonds" but then I realized I didn't know that either , so...

And the last thing I want to do is give Wil any additional poo to fling...

Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Aug 5, 2007 5:29 PM PDT reply actions  

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