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Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona

I don't mean to step on Steve's Minor Lines for the day but I noticed that Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona were not in yesterday's lineup.

Did the Giants hold them out because they are getting promoted or are they just resting them up for the championship game against the AZL Mariners?

It seems strange to me that they would take the three best guys out of the league the day before the championship (assuming that is what they have done).

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The teenagers shall lead them
Probably wanted to rest them for tonight's game. I read a blurb on MiLB.com previewing the game against the AZL Mariners and the guy who wrote it predicted the Mariners would win despite the Giants being on a hot streak. The team would want the top third of their lineup to be as ready as possible for this game.

I really wish there was better coverage on the AZL out there. I'd dedicate my efforts to it if I had better access.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 30, 2007 10:38 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Do you expect them to be moved up after the season is over? I would think that the Giants would love to see what they can do at a higher level.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Aug 30, 2007 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
I'd bet a body part that Noonan and Culberson are moved up for 08. I'd like to see them in Augusta. Playing a full season for a good club with a competent staff will only help them.

I want Villalona to move up but since he's still so young I'm not sure where the Giants will put him in 08. I think he would benefit from playing in Augusta as much as Noonan and Culberson would.

Here I am going to pull something straight out of my behind, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The Giants can keep a closer eye on Villalona when he's playing in Arizona. Scottsdale sort of seems like their second home base outside of the mothership in the Bay Area. Skills wise I'd like to throw him into the fire and see what he can do. As he is someone who's not quite a legal adult in this country I'd think the team would want to take extra care with him and perhaps not send him away to Salem-Keizer or Augusta yet. I only suggest SK in case management feels he's not ready for a full season. All minor league clubs exist to develop skills of players, but there's also the fact that Augusta has been a contender for the last few years and these guys want to win. Having to baby sit Villalona may not be the best use of the Augusta staff.

I have no idea how the Giants powers that be are handling Villalona in terms of his acclimation to life in the States. I would think they looked into Villalona's maturity level somewhat during scouting. All the talent in the world can unravel and quickly if the guy you sign is a shithead, and for the amount of money they gave him I'd expect them to make a smart investment on the guy.

It is to say, I'm not sure on V.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 30, 2007 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Should we also discuss the option of sending Villalona to Augusta for the first half and then to Salem-Keizer for the second half?

The issue I see with promoting Noonan, Culberson and Villalona now is that I have very mixed feelings that they should get to play in the NWL playoffs after all the Volcanoes current players, at least their regulars, have accomplished this season?

Are there any Volcanoes who should be promoted to Augusta or San Jose for the playoffs?

by steve S on Aug 30, 2007 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
I misunderstood camwoody's question. I interpreted "promoting after the season is over" as promoting the trio for next year. Duh. Promoting the three next year is the biggest mankind in the history of no brain.

Anyway, I think it could be a good move to promote them to a playoff team in the system as long as the regulars on the playoff teams are given the bulk of the playing time. They earned it, they should be in there. The three guys in question wouldn't play much if they did move up but it'd be better than them not playing at all once the AZL ends. At least they could hang around and sort of absorb what's going on, meet the coaches they could soon be playing for, and so on.

For 2008 I do like the idea of sending Villalona to Augusta and SK later on, if he proves he needs to take a step back. If he goes into Augusta and holds his own, bonus. He needs to play every day, bottom line. Whether he'd be doing that in extended spring training or with a minor league club, whatever. I'd just rather see him on a minor league club. It's easier to follow his progress that way. :)

As for Volcanoes who could be promoted to SJ or Augusta, maybe Danny Otero? He's been lights out and you can always use more arms. He threw 122 innings at Duke before getting drafted and has 19.1 innings in the NWL currently. Concerns for his arm and stamina could nix that idea.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 30, 2007 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Okay I'm a moron. Otero pitched 2007 with U of South Florida, and he has 20.1 innings thus far. Didn't mean to confuse anyone!
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 30, 2007 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Wondering if they deserve to be in the NWL playoffs is one way to look at it. My problem with that rests in the fact that the minor league affiliates, in my mind, have one job to do: develop talent for the big league club. All the minor league championships in the world don't mean anything if the big club sucks.

I would move those guys up as quickly as possible just to get them playing everyday. These kids need experience and they can get that in Augusta and Salem-Keizer.

I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Aug 30, 2007 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that minor league teams are their "own" teams, and that they just have contractual "affiliations" with the various MLB ball clubs (in exchange for some of that big league club's players).

by sfgfan on Aug 30, 2007 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
Teaching these guys "how to win" is extremely important in their developement whether it's at the minor league level or the pros.

I'm pretty sure other teams do this but I know that the Yankees bring up their top prospects just to sit in the dugout during the playoffs and the World Series just so they can get a taste of the big time.

"Why you gotta be cardin' my hos?" - Charlie Hayes

by stevieg on Aug 30, 2007 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
They may be their own teams but the players that they put in the field belong (at least contractually) to the Giants. Therefore, if they want to remain affiliated with the big club they must act in the best interests of that club.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Aug 30, 2007 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The teenagers shall lead them
The coaching staff are Giants employees too, and the organization will give direct instructions, as for instance, on position changes (like Eugenio Velez this year or Nate Schierholtz several years ago), SP vs. relief pitching, etc.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Aug 30, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

New Topic
This was brought up in the Minor Lines thread but it is interesting. When do Madbum and Fairley start playing baseball again? I understand that they signed late but that sure is a lot of instructional time missed.
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Aug 30, 2007 3:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: to report mid-September to AZ
I am stupid. What happens in mid Sept. in AZ?
I don't need to adopt anyone. "Your children have touched me and I'm pretty sure I've touched them too."

by camwoody on Aug 30, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: to report mid-September to AZ
Arizona Fall League starts.
there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Aug 30, 2007 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: to report mid-September to AZ
Arizona Fall League starts in October. That's the league where all 30 MLB teams send players to Arizona to play for six teams. This year the league begins October 9.

The fall instructional league may be what wilriv is talking about. That's where the Giants would send guys like Fairley and the MadBum to work on their skills during the fall. Villalona was playing there last year after the Giants signed him.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 30, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: to report mid-September to AZ
You only answered one of his questions.
Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

by Goofus on Aug 31, 2007 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No you are not
I should have been more specific. They are to report to Giants complex there in AZ for intsruction and training with coaches.

by wilriv21 on Aug 30, 2007 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget about Andy D'Alessio
He mashed in AZL.  He might be a bit old but he looks good.

by Tchli on Aug 30, 2007 3:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Don't forget about Andy D'Alessio
I like D'Alessio and hope he continues to improve.  Can anyone think of a quality MLB hitter to spend 4 years in college and start pro ball at 22 years of age?  I'm just curious to see who may have done it in recent years.  It seems like it would be interesting to see what his chances of success are given the "late start".

Teixeira?  He's the first that comes to mind for me...

Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

by Woody Wins on Aug 30, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Don't forget about Andy D'Alessio
Teixiera was drafted in his age 21 year. He signed late and didn't begin pro ball until he was 22 (his birthday is in April). He began in Hi A ball and after about two months was promoted to AA. He was assigned to the AFL that spring, tore it up, and made the major league club the following year out of spring training.  Teixiera was however, a high-draft super prospect coming out of college. His progression would be a bad case study to use for someone like D'Alessio.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Aug 30, 2007 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Don't forget about Andy D'Alessio
Depending upon what you mean by "quality hitter" ... Off the top of my head, I know the amateur backgrounds of Giants players better.  Kevin Frandsen was drafted when he was 22 years old after four years in college.
Not a hitter, but Kevin Correia was a four-year collegian who was a couple months short of his 22nd birthday when he was drafted.

Matt LaPorta was nearly 22.5 years old when he was drafted by the Brewers with the 7th overall pick earlier this summer.  He played in college for four years.

by steve S on Aug 30, 2007 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
anyone who doesn't think good pitching stops good hitting should check out the stats from yesterday's game. Some kid named Jacob Wild shut them down, striking out 14 total in eight innings. I shouldn't really say kid, because he's 23 years old facing a bunch of teenagers, but Culberson, Noonan and Villalona were a combined 1 for 14 with 7 strikeouts.
Randy Messenger: "I'll be back soon and we'll be rid of Scott Atchison"

by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2007 6:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I think you're rough riding over some significant details there to promote a cliche. Having a 23 year old college graduate in the AZL is likely to promote such results.  It does nothing however to suggest that in the long run (which is all the AZL is about) Wild will be a good pitcher.

Honestly, things happen in playoffs and "good pitching beats good hitting" doesn't really do a very thorough job of explaining it.  Would you really try to tell me the Cardinals (who's pitching staff wafted a toxic trail all over America for the final two months of the season last year) shut down the Mets because "good pitching beats good hitting"? Did Jeff Weaver magically transmogrify into a "good pitcher" for one month of the last two years?  

Baseball has been trending toward higher and higher run totals and higher and higher HR totals for decades now and trotting out cliches doesn't make it any easier to win without an offense.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Aug 31, 2007 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
Sometimes good pitching stops good hitting; other times good hitting stops good pitching.  It can work either way.

by sharksrog on Sep 1, 2007 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
err, yes, the Cardinals DID beat the Mets last year because good pitching beats good hitting. It doesn't necessarily mean that all of their pitchers are good, it means that they all pitched well. By the way, your Weaver example was a poor one, because he was 1-1 in that series, perhaps you meant Jeff Suppan, who IS a pretty good pitcher.
Randy Messenger: "I'll be back soon and we'll be rid of Scott Atchison"

by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2007 7:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I've forgotten the details, but Bill James did a study of batter/pitcher matchups years ago, and found that the outcome of these matchups generally hewed closer to the batter's stats than the pitcher's. In other words, there's evidence that the cliché is entirely wrong, and in fact good hitting beats good pitching.

by Evan on Aug 31, 2007 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I'm sorry rx, but that's just insipid. Jeff Suppan is the definition of a league average pitcher in every way stats can measure (career 101 ERA+ is a good one though), and if he's the best manifestation of the trite "good pitching beats good hitting ever time" saying, my mind reels that any team's ever been able to score in postseason.  He was somehow not the embodiment of that saying while he was getting his brains beat in vs. the Red Sox in '04 I guess (nor while getting knocked around by the Pads in the series before the Mets).  The Mets were also shut down pretty well in that series by the immortal likes of Josh Kinney and Randy Flores.

Since you clearly don't like stats, let me pose this anecdotal question, how is it that the Atlanta Braves, running three consecutive HOF pitchers out in their rotation every year for over a decade managed to lose so many World Series?

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Aug 31, 2007 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I know the answer to that one: really bad luck.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father, currently sandbagging in Augusta.

by EliminateMe on Aug 31, 2007 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I think you're missing my point here. At the risk of once again being called "insipid," let me try again. The cliche I used is "good pitching stops good hitting", not "good pitchers stop good hitters." If an average pitcher has pinpoint control that day, he is not an average pitcher. As for your point about the Braves pitching staff, let me give you yet another cliche, since I see you like them. "anything can happen in a short series." How many years in a row did the Braves make the playoffs because of those pitchers?? I think it was 13. Losing in a short series can happen to any team, no matter how good they are.
Randy Messenger: "With the way the bullpen has looked since I got hurt I may be closing for Fresno next year."

by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2007 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
The Cardinals also beat Detroit last year because they scored 21 runs in their four wins.

The Cardinals finished 9th in NL ERA during the regular season, so it could hardly be said that they had good pitching.  Their pitching merely got hot at the right time -- enabling one of the worst World Series teams of all time to become world champions.

In a best-of-seven tournament, the better team wins, what maybe 60% of the time?  This wasn't one of those times.

by sharksrog on Sep 1, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
which brings us back to that line of lies, damn lies, and statistics. I use stats myself to back up my point of view, but if it comes down to one game and I have my choice of a great lineup or a pitcher like Johan Santana, I'm taking the pitcher, and I'm taking him every single time.
Randy Messenger: "I'll be back soon and we'll be rid of Scott Atchison"

by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2007 8:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
Didn't Barry Zito outpitch Johan Santana in that one game?

Therefore, Barry Zito >> Johan Santana!

We Are Winner!

Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Aug 31, 2007 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
I would agree with you.  And the reason I would do so is that even the greatest lineups have a few spots that are less than great.

With Santana, one might have to worry about the relievers (although I could live with Joe Nathan :), but as long as Johan is pitching, the best pitcher in the game is on the hill.

Not every batter against him will be the best in the game -- or even the best at his position.

One thing of beauty for the Giants is that it is possible that five years from now we will feel similarly about Tim Lincecum as we now do about Johan Santana.

I would take Johan's 23-year-old season over Tim's season this year.  But Johan also had the advantage of making nearly half his appearances from the bullpen, where he didn't need to pace himself as much.  And his 23-year-old season was also the third year he had appeared in the majors.  Johan's ERA his two previous years had been 6.49 and 4.74.

Johan had a surprising 15 wild pitches in just 108 innings as a 23-year-old.  He has never had more than eight in any other season.  Yet he hit only one batter.  This season Tim has had 10 wild pitches in 130 innings -- and hit one batter.

Both pitchers did a great job of keeping hitters from getting hits and of striking batters out.  Tim actually walked slightly fewer hitters per nine innings, while giving up slighly more home runs.

Tim actually has the precise number of strikeouts as Santana had in Johan's 23-year-old season -- although he garnered them in 22 more innings.

If we compare Tim's first SEASON in the majors to that of Johan, there is little comparison.  But then, Johan was also two years younger.  Phil Hughes of the Yankees, generally thought of as the #1 pitching prospect entering this season, has struggled a bit at the age of 21.  And Homer Bailey, ranked #2 by most, has truly struggled.

by sharksrog on Sep 1, 2007 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
based on his last three starts, Zito deserves a huge raise anyway!!
Randy Messenger: "I'll be back soon and we'll be rid of Scott Atchison"

by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2007 10:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noonan, Culberson, and Villalona
And I think the Giants should GIVE that huge raise to Zito -- as soon as Barry repays his salary deficit prior to those three games.  :)

by sharksrog on Sep 1, 2007 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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