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Around SBN: The Ten Worst Swings Of The 2011 Season

Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?

Hindsight is always 20/20 but I'd say that most of us predicted that a lot of the moves made in the offseason were going to blow up in Sabean's face.  The only pass he gets is that there were so many holes to fill and no one wants to hit at ATT.

Bruce Bochy:  He's my choice for worst signing.  I've never really been one to hate on managers but he has done nothing to gain my confidence that he knows what he's doing.  He had the easiest managing job in the majors with laid-back SD and it appears they let him leave for a reason.  He is predictable in his play-calling, doesn't understand that this team is rebuilding and doesn't appear to be a motivater of men at all.  I beleive players like him only because he stays out of their business.  If Grady Little can be fired for leaving in Pedro Martinez too long, than Bochy should be fired for the worst managing year I have ever seen.

Ray Durham:  He was signed because Sabean couldn't sign anyone else to protect Bonds and Durham has not only failed to do that, he has failed at every aspect of the game.  I always thought he was lazy during those years he spent so much time on the DL and I had a feeling last year was a fluke.  I wanted Frandsen to be the starting 2B so bad this year but sort of understood because Durham was supposed to be a 3 or 5 hitter.  The biggest mistake of this signing was the 2 years.  Sabean should have made Durham prove he could do it for 1 more year with an option year but I don't think anyone could have predicted he would be this bad.

Barry Zito:  He still has time to turn his year around and 6 more years to prove he's worth 126 million, but his contract is the only reason why this team can't seriously go after A-Rod in the offseason.  Just think of a rotation of Cain-Lowry-Lincecum-Sanchez-Misch/Correia with A-Rod as our starting SS in '08.  It's wishful thinking but could have been much more likely without this ridiculous contract that he will probably never live up to unless he wins a Cy Young and wins the Wolrd Series MVP.  I was happy when they signed him but 126 million?!? In the words of Jimmmy "C-c-c-c'mon."

Dave Roberts:  He makes the list for one reason-our minor league system's only strength right now is in the outfield and he is blocking a lot of talent.  Rajai, Fred, Nate, Dan, Brian, Clay...the bottom line is I would rather see any of these guys in CF than Roberts.  He is at best a really good bench player who can steal a base when you need one.  He's a pie-thrower in the outfield and news of his good defense were greatly exaggerrated.  3 years for this guy??!!  Thanks but no thanks.  Now what do we do with him?

Poll
Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Bruce Bochy
14 votes
Ray Durham
37 votes
Barry Zito
116 votes
Dave Roberts
36 votes

203 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Why is it such a common belief that landing A-Rod would help this team?  If there's one thing we've learned from the Barry years, it's that one player doesn't make this team.  Sure he might put asses in the seats, but after you dole out the 20-25 Mil. per year that he's asking, you won't have enough cash to put any resemblance of a team behind him.
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 8:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I'd say the 97-03 segment of the Barry years proves that it is possible to build a winning team around one superstar and a lot of role players.

The 94-96 and 05-07 segments of the Barry years prove that building such a team isn't easy to do...

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 22, 2007 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Building a winning team is one thing...but there's not a chance in hell that you'll be able to afford the kind of experience and depth required for a run deep into the playoffs.  How many times did the Mariners and Rangers make a run when A-Rod was on the squad.  One, if I can remember...in Seattle, and that was when he was younger, cheaper, and with Griffey Jr.  

We aren't one man away from an honorable season here folks.  We've got more holes than the Titanic and by bringing in A-Rod there's no way that these sub .500 years will cease.  

Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Were you away on a cruz?
Not a chance in hell?

2002 was about as deep as you can go in the playoffs without winning the whole enchilada.

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 22, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Were you away on a cruz?
That wasn't my point.  Homeboy is going to be looking for $25 Million per.  That's just silly money...way silly money.  If Barry had been paid anywhere near that in 2002, there's no way the team surrounding him would look anything like they did.  
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Were you away on a cruz?
Isn't he getting paid $27M/yr right now?  Isn't he looking for $30M/yr minimum?  
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 22, 2007 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The Mariners made the playoffs twice with Rodriguez: 1997 and 2000. Three times if you count 1995, when he was 19, not yet great, and not yet playing very much (1 postseason ab). They also finished second in the division in 1996, 4.5 back of TX. Does that count as making a run?

I think many would argue that Texas's problems during the Rodriguez years had more to do with the $55 mil to Chan Ho Park than the $27 mil to Rodriguez. I would probably be one of the many. Unfortunately, we've got Zito, our very own Chan Ho-style albatross.

by Tom S on Aug 22, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I really think it's a stretch of the term to define Jeff Kent, circa 1997-2002 as a "role player."  At the very least, you'd have to admit that the "supporting cast" got progressively thinner and thinner over the last 5 years, really ever since they let Burks leave and replaced him with Reggie Sanders (who begat Jose Cruz, who begat...

by Roger on Aug 22, 2007 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
My thoughts exactly. Kent may have been a douchebag, but he was probably the key that made the formula of Barry + Role Players equal wins.

by sularz on Aug 22, 2007 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Fair enough, Kent was somewhere between role player and superstar. The Giants weren't paying him superstar money, certainly. The two seasons after Kent left were more clearly Bonds + role players and those were both winning, if flawed, teams.

My point is that I don't believe the experience of the Bonds years proves that you can't win with a team built around one superstar.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 22, 2007 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Bonds = Super-duperstar
Kent = Star
Since Kent joined the Giants, at no time did he ever equate to role player, or even near-role player status.

Not trying to invalidate the point you're making, just trying to make sure you recognize that Kent wasn't even close to being a role player in his Giants tenure.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Ah, but you don't ALWAYS have to pay stars star salaries -- behold the wonder that is player development!

by Roger on Aug 22, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
What is this "player development" of which you speak?
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 22, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Don't worry about it. If it was important Sabean would be doing it. Right? Right?!?
Eatin' D-Backs and crappin' out Rockies.

by camwoody on Aug 22, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not a fan of Kent
but over his career, his OPS+ is 125. That's at 2b. League average for a corner OF / 1b is about 110, league average for all hitters is 100. He won the MVP once, and finished in the top 10 3 other times.

Kent's probably a  borderline HOFer.

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2007 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
A-Rod would give us a force in the middle of the lineup which we won't have once Bonds leaves, and he will give us a foundation to build around with all the young talent we have in the farm system.  I would just rather have seen the Giants shell out way too much money for him than Barry fing Zito.  But yeah I wouldn't really mind if they didn't sign either of them.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
all the young talent we have in the farm system is like 4-5 years away.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 22, 2007 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO SIGN a-rod FOR 8 YEARS!!!

Under the new, standard, seven year with an option contract for overpriced FA signings.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Plus I believe I can give a money back guarantee that if this winter you read every possible baseball prospect roundup on line and in print, you will never once come across the phrase "ALL the young talent in the Giants system" -- that is in the meaning of copious amoungs. Now phrased like this: "is THAT all the young talent in the Giants system?!" you might get a hit or two.

by Roger on Aug 22, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The Giants do have talent in the outfield that is major league ready.  Every other position is probably 3-4 years away.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Farm system talent like who?

You do know that A-Rod will be asking for nearly TWICE what Barry is making this year, right?!?

Pop in the middle of the lineup ain't shit if you've got a bunch of has-beens and never-will-bes around him.  Name one guy on the current squad you'd feel comfortable with "protecting" A-Rod in the lineup?  Durham....Kelsko....Winn....Molina....nobody.  We ain't got nobody to put around him.  We might as well just call ourselves the Rangers and move to Arlington...because their experiment with him went about as good as ours will.  

Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I agree with your point that signing A-Rod isn't the answer.  My point was just that I would rather them shell out the big bucks for A-Rod than Zito.  There is no quick fix for this team.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The thing about A-Rod is that he would pretty much replace replace Bonds and either Feliz or Vizquel, salary-wise.  (This assumes you go with a young/cheap guy like Lewsi or existing salary like Roberts in LF next season.)
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 22, 2007 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Bonds and Feliz/Vizquel for 5-6-7 YEARS !!!
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Okay forget A-Rod.  Lets just all agree that Zito's contract was a huge mistake.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
That's not how it works rookie.  You had said that signing Zito will keep us from going after A-Rod...as if by some act of god he will turn this mess around.  Nobody is arguing that the Zito contract wasn't money well wasted, but by putting A-Rod up on a pedestal like you have, you've opened up a can of worms that you probably shouldn't have.  
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I didn't put A-Rod on jack shit.  The man might finish his career with more homers than anyone and the Giants would be flush with cash next year following all the Bonds revenue so I was saying that signing A-Rod would be possible if we didn't give the keys to the bank to Zito.  It was wishful thinking and I never said that he would turn this mess around but it would be nice to have A-Rod to replace Bonds in the middle of the lineup next year.  I'm fully aware that he has never taken a team to the World Series and that his 25-30 million per year contract would handicap this team from signing other free agents.  I would just rather have the Giants have spent the big bucks for A-Rod than Zito.

I swear any mention of A-Rod just gets everyone all hot and bothered.

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Plus if there's one thing that Sabean has proven it is that he can build a perennial contender around a superstar in the prime of his career.  You can't tell me that this team would not be better with A-Rod.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
And to think just last year, Yankee fans were booing the piss out of A-Rod.

The times, they are a-changin'...

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Just shows you how delusional Yankees fans are.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Totally agree with you.  Don't know what people are getting on your ass for.  Zito = bad signing (so far).  Instead of him, we could have had AROD for a bit more money.  Both would be enormous signings but overall, we'd get more VALUE out of AROD for the money.  Maybe that's what you need to convey.  

-D

by dw4848 on Aug 22, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Yeah I guess in my initial post I made it sound like the only reason the Zito signing was bad was that now we can't sign A-Rod.  The Zito signing is bad b/c it handicaps us from signing any big name free agent.  I will never mention A-Rod again.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

re: not my money.
Why does anyone on this board care what it costs the ownership to field a winning squad?  They have brain washed us all to care about their spending as though we have some fiduciary responsibility. They signed Zito, fine.  Now sign some good players and don't start bitching about what it costs.
Ray Durham: 79th best hitter in the National League.

by likmaiballs on Aug 22, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
I keep trying to figure out what "maiballs" are, but I just can't find it.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
Good point, it doesn't cost me a penny, does it?  Management should sign A-Rod to a $100BILLION contract!

I think it has to do the fact that the Giants have a $90mil payroll.  If they exceed that with a few contracts, we know that they won't have payroll flexibility to sign another bat.  We could say they SHOULD pony up and tack another $90mil on top of their current salary limit, but we all know that's not happening.  We're not the Red Sox and Yankees here.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
Because I dont want to spend $20 for a fucking beer.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do beers costs $20 in Yankees stadium?
The payroll has little to do with the costs of attending a game.

Supply and demand.

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2007 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
I will end up being your money if you want to actually go see your $200 millon team play.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
The team has a finite payroll.  That's reality.  When we opine what the team should do, we'd look like idiots if we didn't take salaries into consideration.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 22, 2007 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
Considering the team's payroll limit is what makes this an interesting place to read.  

If you want to ignore reality and just say what the team should do without any consideration of the facts then any neighborhood bar, AT&T Urinal line or random fans on the Bart train will suffice.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Aug 22, 2007 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
The reason we care about how much it takes to field a squad is that resources are limited, much like your analysis here.  :)

by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2007 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: re: not my money.
Wow...just wow.  With a handle like that I'm not at all surprised that you favor the make believe world where every team in the majors has Yankee-deep pockets.
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 23, 2007 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Why is it such a common belief that adding good hitters would help this team?

Because it's true.

The fact that "one player" doesn't make the team is a reflection on the inability for certain front office staff to build a team.  At least when that one player is the best player ever.  Or in the case of Arod, a sure-fire HOFer with a chance to be one of the best players ever.

by zenbitz on Aug 22, 2007 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
You are correct that one player doesn't make a team.  He needs some decent players around him.

But to blame the one good one instead of the 24 bad ones (overstatement) seems a bit misguided.

by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2007 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I think you're reading me wrong here.  I'm not blaming the good one...I'm just a realist and I can recognize that with the Zito contract, and this hypothetical A-Rod deal, we couldn't afford the 23 other scabs required to field a competitive squad.
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 23, 2007 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
My pick is Roberts. Durham and Zito have both performed well below expectations. After a disappointing start, Roberts has pretty much played up to (or close to) expectations,  and yet seems completely superfluous. That makes him the worst choice even correcting for the advantages of hindsight.

As for Bochy, I pretty much retain my preseason "meh". I don't think he's what's killing the Giants this season, but he hasn't exactly shaken them out of it, either.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 22, 2007 9:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I just feel like even if the Giants do right the ship in terms of the roster, Bochy hasn't shown anything in terms of managing skills.  I would like to see a manager with some fire to lead a young group of guys into the next era.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
he's my pick too.  he's a complete replaceable redundancy.
this is a split signature of solidarity for Palestine and the current Giants "team".

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Aug 22, 2007 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I would have liked to vote for Aurilia had he been on the list, but Zito is clearly the choice here.  He's the only guy who has not only been a bust this year, but has real potential to cripple the franchise for the better part of a decade.

I would say that virtually no one predicted Durham's complete collapse. I think it's funny that there's a lot of people saying "Sabean is a moron and should have just played Frandsen" when the move was largely lauded around here when Durham was re-signed. Smacks of MMQB'ing to me.  

by KCE on Aug 22, 2007 9:08 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Aurilia hasn't been a good signing, but I just don't think he's in the same ballpark as the four on the poll.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Ray Durham's signing
Some of us were against the Durham signing, even though we understood the reasoning behind it. Sabean figured he had to have a proven hitter to protect Bonds; Klesko was coming off an injury and we didn't know what we'd get with Molina. But, come on. When a player suddenly puts up one good year at age 34 after several mediocre years, do you really expect him to duplicate that one good year again? I sure didn't.

Ray seems like a nice guy. I wish him well; I hope he takes Harold Reynolds' place on Baseball Tonight. The sooner, the better.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 22, 2007 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
While we're on the subject of hindsight...I wonder what kind of shape this team would be in if we had went with Manny Acta instead of Bochy?  He's found a way to steer a team of spare parts and left-behinds to a record slightly better than our own.  That's pretty telling stuff when you consider that our lineup SHOULD be the stronger of the two on paper.  
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 9:09 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I was in Manny's camp when his name first came up as a potential managerial candidate.

Do I get an award for that?

Manny is young and trying to prove himself.  I wanted him to be our manager for about the same reasons I was excited the Niners hired Mike Nolan.  I didn't like the Bochy signing initially, but it grew on me when I heard him speak.  I definitely like the way he handles the pitching staff.  But I agree, I think Manny could have lit that fire under this team.

Or having a manager younger than Barry could have rendered him completely useless.  Not sure which is the correct answer.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I like Acta but he wasn't a good choice for manager once they decided to go with Barry and the other old guys for yet another year. I'd love to have him next year though. Then again, if you remove all the old guys from the roster, Bochy will have to play the kids and he will probably do a good job.
Randy Messenger says,"We're in Florida this weekend?? Maybe I should have just punched Scott Olsen again!"

by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2007 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Just think of all the starts Sweeney would have gotten this year if he'd been the only real veteran on the team... Boch wouldn't have been able to help himself!

It's a major problem when you need a team completely free of healthy veterans for a manager to play a prospect every day...

Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Manny was my choice, as well.  But I think the problem with the Giants has more to do with the players than the manager.

by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2007 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I really wanted Acta and I think that Bochy was a poor choice.  I don't assume that Bonds would be unable to get along with Acta simply because he's new to managing.  In fact, I think that Bonds is more resilient than even many of us give him credit.  

I didn't expect last place, but I absolutley KNEW that we wouldn't be good.  No franchise, not even the Yankees or Red Sox could overcome (by its own decisions)  holes to be filled at 1b, 3b, 2b, cf, rf, c all at once.  And to think that the fucking braintrust didn't prepare for the obvious ending of contracts last off-season??!!??!!

I put Zito as the worst because we'll be stuck with him until like 2040.

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 22, 2007 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I don't think much of the fault lies with Bochy either.  I just wonder how different things would be with Acta....

Would our record this year be similar?  Most definitely.

Would the "kids" get more chances to prove their worth and thereby provide Sabean with some valuable info regarding our building blocks for the future?  I'd like to think so.  

Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 23, 2007 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I'll go with Zito. It was the only one of the four I was truly unhappy with at the time and he's completely lived down to my expectations.

Durham was a good signing at the time. Saying otherwise is pure hindsight... even in his "bad" years as a Giant, he had OPS+ of 111, 115, 107 and 127. Nobody could have predicted that he'd suddenly fall off to a 73. There was nothing in his track record to indicate that he even had a season this bad in him.

Roberts wasn't a good idea, but he's also not Juan Pierre, so he gets plus points for that.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 22, 2007 9:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Oh, come now -- Roberts and Durham have merely sucked. But in a couple of years, those bad contracts will just be fading memories.

But Zito -- that one's going to cripple us for years and years. Zito is in the running for the worst offseason acquisition of all time. Now, if Ray Durham were to spend the winter inventing a time machine and went back to the 1980s and ran around blowing up Safeways so that the company went bankrupt and Peter Magowan never had the money to buy the franchise and the team moved to Tampa -- then Zito might have some competition.

And Bochy's actually pretty good.

by Evan on Aug 22, 2007 9:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
How is Bochy good?  I keep hearing people say he's a good manager but he always had the best bullpen in SD and the greatest closer of his era.  Bochy has called rally killing double steals with the cleanup hitter in the box, let a pitcher hit in the bottom of the 8th with a running in scoring position in a 3-run game and he pussied out on his moving Bonds to 3rd plan.

Omar criticized him last night for getting the bullpen up in the 9th and rattling Lincecum.  While I don't fault Bochy for that really (Lincecum shouldn't get rattled by that) Omar's criticism shows that the players aren't on the same page as him and that is a sign that he is not a good leader.

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
OK, you have a point there. In the overall wreckage of the season, I'd forgotten some of those dumb in-game moves.

But what I like about Bochy is that he's done a pretty good job of running the pitching staff, especially the bullpen. The pen isn't great this year, but the difference between last year's performance under Alou and this year's under Bochy, with largely the same personnel, is night and day. And while he's left Matt Cain in to throw too many pitches a few times, he seems to have a generally good idea of when to take a pitcher out.

The inane baserunning gambits are small potatoes in comparison.

by Evan on Aug 22, 2007 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The only reason he's left Cain in for too long is that the offense never scores enough to get him wins and he keeps hoping "okay one more inning and then the offense will score and cain can get a freaking win," so I can't fault Bochy for that.  The bullpen has been a mess all season so he gets a sort of pass on that.  

Although I hate how as soon as Hennesey gets into trouble he gets the bullpen going.  Either let him have the 9th or not.  Bullpen by committee never works, he needs to set some more solid roles so guys can get comfortable.  How many guys have pitched the 7th and 8th?  I know its a mess but there is no order in the bullpen and I think he could be doing a little better job.

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I don't know if Bochy is really horrible (though I have my suspicions), but I wouldn't describe him as pretty good.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 22, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
He's made a surprising amount of curious moves, BUT he is leagues better than Alou. I don't know how much that means, but it offers a small amount of comfort.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I pretty much agree. I've got no idea if Bochy is a Sterling Motivator Of Men but he doesn't make me scream "What! WHAT! &^%&#^@*!" at the TV like Alou did nearly every night.

Bochy's chief problem is that he sees the older players on staff as a comfort blanket when they're really a skanky pox-ridden blanket instead...

Zito's the real killer here. You'd think $125M would buy someone who could, y'know, throw a strike or two.
 

by OrangePalm on Aug 22, 2007 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I don't see how the choice can be anything other than Zito.  In addition to just being a bad pitcher now (you need look no further than his declining stats since '02) he has one of the worst contracts baseball has ever seen.  

While that contract doesn't hurt us too bad right now while we are rebuilding with younger, cheaper players can you imagine the effect it will have in 4 or 5 seasons?  What if we can't sign a player we need because of that albatross of a contract?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there's a good chance Zito won't even be in baseball anymore by the end of his contract.  

by Sandor Clegane on Aug 22, 2007 9:34 AM PDT reply actions  

Bochy Stuff and Why I voted Barry Zito
Managers, on the whole, have very little to do with a team's W/L record.

BP has a nice article on it in their book called 'Baseball Between the Numbers' and they found that:

"Through a slew of different analytical techniques, no evidence of managerial influences have been found. We have seen that most managers overuse strategies like sacrifice bunts, stolen bases, and intentional walks, but it's unclear if they are the instigators or if the personnel involved escape the analysis of the Win Expectancy framework."

In fact, their study found that managers are more likely to cost their respect teams wins because of overuse of such strategies (sac. bunts, intentional walks, stolen bases) instead of helping the team. Frank Robinson cost his teams -3.20 wins per season in his career because of his overuse of those mentioned strategies. Former Giants skipper, Roger Craig, is right behind him with -3.10 wins.

The managers that utilized these tactic's the best were at most adding 0.63 wins per season (Dick Williams in 1983, according to BP's research, had the best season for a manager from the era of 1972-2004).

It's extremely difficult to find out exactly just what the manager is responsible for and what he isn't. The front office can mandate in-game strategies, who starts, and set pitch count limits. It's impossible to pinpoint who did what move and why. You just can't attribute every move to the manager.

The reason that guys like Durham and Aurilia are still starting could very well be out of Bochy's hands. If the front office is making him start those players, what can he do?

On the other hand, Barry Zito is signed to a giant deal that's already looking bad in year 1. His declining peripherals (BB/9, K/9) were a scary fortune teller to what he could become. I don't think Zito is this bad but giving 7 year deals to pitchers has never, ever worked out before in baseball and I don't expect it to work now.

by xanthan on Aug 22, 2007 9:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bochy Stuff and Why I voted Barry Zito
If that's true than why didn't we just give Ron Wotus the job?  He would have been cheaper and already knows the organization.  It's so hard to quantify the impact of a manager on a team through stats and while I agree that it's not all Bochy's fault, I think he has made in-gmae moves that have really effected this teams momentum and cost them a lot more than 3 loses.

On a veteran team a laid back guy like Bochy is tolerable, but for the upcoming rebuilding project I think the Giants should try to find someone else that can fire kids up.

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bochy Stuff and Why I voted Barry Zito
If Ron Wotus is a great manager of people, and won't give up lots of outs trying to execute dumb moves, and will keep our young pitchers to reasonable pitch counts, then he needs to be our manager today.
Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Aug 22, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bochy Stuff and Why I voted Barry Zito
I think there is more to it than that.

I believe Dusty Baker has cost his teams more through an irresponsible use of pitchers than his productive outs.

The most important things a manager can do is manage the personalities of the players, reduce the likelihood of injuries (pitch counts, etc), not give up lots of outs doing stupid micro-management things, and not cost a lot of money.

Basically, the perfect manager is a low-salaried Bobby Cox who almost never tries to hit and run.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Aug 22, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
I'd have to vote for Roberts. A career role-player signed for 3 years for a position we don't need help with. for $18M. when we have a multitude of cheap, 25 year old robertses. jesus.

Zito has been a disappointment and won't live up to his contract, but he at least fills a need; ignoring the contract he is a serviceable middle rotation/slightly above average end-of-the-rotation guy who is on the mound every 5th day.

Durham, i don't know, i'm sure he evens out Winn on the pick-up basketball game they play between double-headers.

Dodgers fans eat their young.

by redhornet78 on Aug 22, 2007 10:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
During Spring Training I wrote to the Giants mailbag that Roberts was basically a left-handed hitting, older, weak-armed Jason Ellison.  I have never been so right about anything in my entire life.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
that's a problem, because say what you want about Dave Roberts, but he's a much better player than Jason Ellison, there's no comparison. You can make the case that the Giants didn't need Dave Roberts, but dismissing him and comparing him to a career minor leaguer is well off base.
Randy Messenger says,"We're in Florida this weekend?? Maybe I should have just punched Scott Olsen again!"

by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2007 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Dave Roberts is a (marginal) starting outfielder.  Jason Ellison is a fifth outfielder.  I think you have been more right about other things.

by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2007 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
They are both 4th OFs. Neither should be starting anywhere.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The thing is, you absolutely cannot ignore Zito's contract.  Especially so if the question is what is the worst signing of the off-season.  As horrible as Roberts, Durham and Bochy have been, their signings will not hamstring this team for 7 years.  

If the Giants were the Yankees or the Red Sox, perhaps we could overlook the stupid amount of money that Zito is making.  However, we are not those teams and a bad contract like that can severely hamper our ability to sign other players in the future.  

by Sandor Clegane on Aug 22, 2007 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
It's not the money that's the problem, it's the years.  The Giants payroll is high enough, they can make do.  Don't look at it as Zito makes 18mil a year.  Look at it as Zito and Cain make a combined 20 mil a year for the next four years.  Throw in Lincecum's and Lowry's salaries, and that 18mil isn't so bad.  $18mil a year can be worked around, particularly if you can compensate by not overpaying random cagey veterans and instead have minor leaguers that can make at least a reasonable impact at the major league level.

But a seven year deal for a pitcher with declining numbers and declining skill?  That's what makes Zito such a bad acquisition, and why he's running away with the title of Worst Offseason Acquisition.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
But Zito could just be working on a killer album where he jams with Santana, has a soft rock duet with Omar and a power ballad in which Bonds lends his awkward falsetto voice for the chorus.  

Then everyone will be like "Hey, we signed this guy because he's a pitcher AND a musician AND he dated Paris Hilton.  He is sooo cool and dreamy our female audience will be bigger than when J.T. was making the ladies swoon."  He's worth so much more this city and team than his mediocre pitching because he's soooooo multi-talented.

At least that's what Magowan must have been thinking when he admittedly overpaid for him.  Is there any other team that would have even given him 6 years?  

Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Didn't you love how you never saw a man wear a Snow jersey?  Only the ladies.  Typically good looking ones, too.  But I digress.

I think the main reason we got Zito was because of years six and seven.  I heard the Mets offered five, and they were the only real competition for Zito.

And seven years from now, if Zito's skills continue to decline like they have been, not even the ladies will love themselves some Barry.  Girls don't tend to go for losers.  Though I might be oversimplifying.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Norm MacDonald

by JRPhillips on Aug 22, 2007 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Perhaps another way to look at the question is this: which contract, if it goes totally bad, would you least want to have to eat salarywise? To me, that would be Mr. Zito.  I'd give up Roberts to anybody who'd take him, and pay his salary, because I could actually afford to do that. Not so much with the Zito Albatross.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 22, 2007 11:08 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Yeah but that is speculating that Zito will continue to suck.  I still have hope that he can give some return on the Giants investment.  Slim hope but its there.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bingo
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gringo
Omar says, "Dammit gaffer! Bring in a few defenders, a mid-fielder or two, and nice pull w/Alan Smith."

by PacBellBoozer on Aug 22, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dingo
I say to Kevin Correia what Laurence Olivier said to Neil Diamond in The Jazz Singer: "I hef no son!"

by VidaWantsYourCar on Aug 22, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Linguo
...dead?
Steve Kline: Lately, significantly less okay

by groug on Aug 22, 2007 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Dropo
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 22, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Mungo
Van Lingle
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 22, 2007 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Linguo is dead.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Aug 22, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Zito is the worst acquisition of the next 7 years.

How would ARod help this team? For the 20 million we'll be paying Zito for the next decade years, we could have ARod for 10-12 million more. Would you pay 10 million next year to have ARod? I know anyone would in a heartbeat. Maybe that makes ARod a bad investment rather than a terrible investment. But this farm will produce a league-average starting pitcher, and he won't cost 18 million (average) a year.
And, yes, we'd have plenty of holes to fill... what if you brought Bonds back for another year? Could ARod, Bonds, Molina, Klesko and Winn give you a shot at having a league-average offense next year? Wanna add Lowell to the mix?

Durham was a terrible signing too, but no one could have predicted his dramatic fall off of the "good" tree. It was a signing we needed to have any shot at something resembling an offense.

Roberts (and his big contract) was redundant with Winn (and his big contract) and Lewis around, as well as 3+ outfielders waiting in the wings for AB's. But it wasn't 18 mil a year. And Roberts could still very well post above average OBP for the next 2 1/4 years.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Aug 22, 2007 2:06 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
The only good thing that can come from the Zito contract is that the Giants will learn their lesson about paying that kind of money to one player. If they go out and give that kind of money to ARod after this season it will show that they learned nothing. ARod, as great as he is, was considered an albatross down in Texas, and will be the same here. It would be one thing if you surround him with good players, but another if he is surrounded by a bad hitting team. I also have this fear about ARod that Canseco is telling the truth and after this great season he will sign a contract for 250 million dollars and then show up for spring training 30 pounds lighter than he is now, looking like Tim Lincecum.
Randy Messenger says,"We're in Florida this weekend?? Maybe I should have just punched Scott Olsen again!"

by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2007 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Hopefully another good thing to come out of the Zito contract will be the end of major FA signings to significantly backloaded contracts in MLB.
Dave Righetti: You don't know him.

by howtheyscored on Aug 22, 2007 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
It isn't that the Giants paid too much money to one player.  It is that they paid it to the WRONG player.

by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2007 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the genius Rangers
who then went out and completely overpaid for an overrated Michael Young. ARod was not the problem.

Or to put it another way, do you want the Giants to emulate the Rangers?

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2007 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
Sorry for the what-if game, btw. :)
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Aug 22, 2007 2:08 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Poll: Worst Offseason Acquisition?
All of Roberts voters out there, don't forget that he played for Bochy in SD and Boch probably pushed the Roberts signing on management.  A vote for Roberts is a half vote for Bochy.
Can't w8 for '08!

by southcitysteve on Aug 22, 2007 3:26 PM PDT reply actions  

They Are All Equally Worthless
Just behind on the useless scale
Feliz
Aurelia
Klesko
Kline

Talk about Eight Men Out. Arnold Rothstein could have just convinced Charlie Comisky to trade Sabaen straight across and saved himself the bribe money.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 22, 2007 3:40 PM PDT reply actions  

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