McCovey Chronicles: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Network Bar & Login
Section Navigation
Main Blog Content
Secondary Sidebar: Links to Recent Stories, FanPosts and FanShots
Masthead

Around SBN: Beyond The Boxscore's Week 17 MLB Power Rankings

Why I'm Pi$$ed

by Roadie on Aug 16, 2007 5:00 PM PDT Comment 29 comments

I know I'm not breaking any new ground, here, but I felt the need to put down in words what's eating me about the Giants.

Teams go through rough times. I know. I've followed multiple teams over the last 35 years and I've seen some brutal stretches. There are two things, in my mind, that help me as a fan accept the down years and I don't see either of those things going on with the Giants right now.

Those two things below the fold:

A Plan: A strategy, a philosophy for how the team is going to go about getting better. I'm happy with the potential our young pitchers have, that's the bright spot, of course, but even there, I see underperforming. So are we going young? Why not put all the kids in full time for the rest of the year? Don't we need to see them play over a good long stretch to know what we have? If we're going to lose 80% of our games from here on out, why not make the time productive. Are we re-vamping our farm system? Why can't we develop position players? This is a big problem that I don't see signs that management acknowledges.
Accountability: A sense that management is as uncomfortable and pissed as I am with the losing and underperforming. I didn't like Matt Morris' comments in parting with the Giants, but in my heart of hearts I know there's some truth to the idea that the team is accepting losing at this point.

Here's the thing: THE GIANTS ARE 20 GAMES UNDER .500! That's absolutely ridiculous! With the lack of team plate discipline and terrible situational hitting, how does Joe Lefevre still have a job? I know, I know, Joe's a great guy and it's "not his fault" and the "players have to take responsibility" blah blah. In my mind, even if Joe's not 100% of the issue, getting rid of him would signal that management is in appropriate crisis management mode. I know I'm in the minority here, but as far as I'm concerned, the same goes for Righetti. Why the hell can't our pitchers consistently throw strikes? How is it possible for Zito to have tanked so thoroughly, it boggles the mind!

I'm a great guy! I really am. But if I start consistently producing shoddy work, I'm gone from my job. I'm out on my "great guy" ass, pronto!

Overall, it just feels like the team just doesn't get it. The Giants right now are so terrible it hurts. I feel like a battered wife continuing to pay attention to the games every day. "They're a good team, I know they want to win! They're just struggling right now. They promised me they're going to get better." I'm afraid the truth is they suck and don't even understand how bad.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs | Comment 29 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

"how does Joe Lefevre still have a job?"

Lefevre: "Brian old buddy, I've still got a job right?"

Sabean: "Yea man, you'll always have a job. I wouldn't let my buddy go unemployed."

Lance Niekro AAA Watch: 94 AB .287/.355/.436 6 2B 1 3B 2 HR 10 BB (through 8/13)

by WalrusMan on Aug 16, 2007 4:58 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Sadly that appears to be the case.

Sabean also likes LeFevre's groundbreaking "flail at the first pitch" technique.

by Roadie on Aug 16, 2007 5:03 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Hey hey hey hey! This is about Sabean, Magowan, and Lefevre.

Please leave Righetti out of it.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2007 5:42 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Yea, recently I did a poll asking who's the worst person in the front office. I tried to vote for Lefebrve 200+ times myself, but it only allows you to do it once.

If Brad Hennesy had Steve Kline's attitude you'd get Rob Nen... without the triple digit heat.

by milesntrane on Aug 16, 2007 5:45 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

I think we can put you in a 12 step program for what is really the core issue here :o)

by melottfan on Aug 16, 2007 6:29 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

It amazes me how fans blame a hitting coach when their team can't hit. It's especially off the wall when the hitters are 35-40 years old. Shouldn't players with all that experience know how to hit by now?? The Giants scored 9 runs tonight and hit four homeruns. Was Lefevre smart tonight and told them something brilliant, or was it that they decided not to listen to him tonight?? How come Barry Bonds gets credit for every homerun and Lefevre isn't considered a genius for Bonds' production at age 43?? But when a lousy hitter hitting .225 strikes out, it's Lefevre's fault. Look, I'm not saying that Lefevre is a great hitting coach, I'm just saying that there's no way a fan would know watching the game. I've never heard a player knock him or blame him for his problems, so I will assume he's doing a good job.

Randy Messenger says,"Ray Durham hit a ball hard enough to break my hand??"

by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2007 7:30 PM PDT reply actions

+ 1

by SabeanSupporter on Aug 16, 2007 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Well here's something I do know. Apparently, Feliz had no idea that you should hit a ball to the right side with a runner on second until this year when Bochy had a one-on-one session with him. Granted, he's still not very good at it, but don't you think this is something that a decent hitting coach might have wanted to point out sometime in the past three years?

The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 16, 2007 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions

BINGO

I've thought that one a number of times myself

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Aug 17, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Well put. Aside from Durham, every single hitter on the team is well within what we could reasonably have expected from him at the beginning of the season. You can't blame Lefevre that they're getting old (and in several cases weren't that good in the first place).

The man responsible for Giants' offense being so offensive is the man who selected the players.

by Evan on Aug 16, 2007 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

by your way of thinking there shouldn't be a hitting coach at all then

by MikeyJ on Aug 17, 2007 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Is it possible for us to be worse without a hitting coach? This sounds perfectly logical.

The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 17, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

The Giants not having a hitting coach this year sounds logical, that is.

The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 17, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Your argument almost makes sense, except it... Here's why Lefebrve sucks:

I'm pretty sure Lefebrve, nor most any hitting coach is responsible for Barry "Freak of Nature" Bonds' production at any age. He may have helped him in some slumps... but Bonds' swing is all him, and he's probably ten times more aware of anything than Lefebrve was.

What a hitting coach does is not show guys how to swing, and what to look for, and MAKE a guy a good hitter. A hitting coach is there for the player. When 5 veteran players are hitting below their normal average, and they keep getting worse (Vizquel, Durham, Aurilia) there is something cleary wrong with the HELP.

Pedro Feliz should not still be swinging at sliders in the dirt.

Ray Durham should not be swinging at a change up out fo the zone on 3-1.

Kevin Frandsen should not be hitting .800 (if ground outs to the shortstop were considered hits)

The Giants should not be the worst team in the league with RISP.

How a hitting coach fixes all of these problems is with an approach. I amnot even sure he recognizes what's going on. My guess is he micromanages, and tells guys "what to look for" on certain counts from certain pitchers. That CAN help, but a solid approach for yourself at the plate is much more important than guessing what each pitcher is going to do.

Trust me... Joe Lefebrve sucks!

If Brad Hennesy had Steve Kline's attitude you'd get Rob Nen... without the triple digit heat.

by milesntrane on Aug 17, 2007 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Here's why I'm against Lefebvre.

At fanfest a few years ago, he said straight out when a certain fan asked him how he approached hitters that needed help that he doesn't. He waits for the hitters to come to him. That is not the way a coach should operate, veterans or not.

I have yet to see or hear him actually work with any hitter, in his entire career here. The Giants have actually hired other instructors that were supposedly second hitting instructors (Willie Upshaw started like this), but they always seemed to be moved to other roles. That bothers me a lot.

I feel like rebuilding should start with this coaching staff. Perhaps not everyone, but some. I don't think that level of accountability is absurd.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Aug 17, 2007 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

When Barry Bonds hit an opposite field homerun a couple of weeks ago, they said he had been working with Lefevre all day and Lefevre was the guy he hugged when he came to the dugout. What else do you want from your hitting coach?? You really think it's his fault when Pedro Feliz swings at a bad pitch?? You don't think he tells hitters what they should or should not do, and the hitter does whatever he wants when he gets up there?? Mike Tyson had that great line about how every fighter has a plan against him and then they get hit. That's what it's all about here. Someone like Pedro Feliz goes up to homeplate knowing he shouldn't swing at sliders in the dirt, and then they throw him a pitch that looks to him like a strike and he swings, and what do you know?? That pitch was a slider in the dirt. It's up to the hitter to recognize that pitch when it comes, and most of them aren't capable of that.

Randy Messenger says,"We're in Florida this weekend?? Maybe I should have just punched Scott Olsen again!"

by rxmeister on Aug 17, 2007 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

You're talking to us about not knowing what/why a batting coach does/is, and then you talk about knowing what Feliz has in his head.

For every time you've seen something like what happened with Bonds, I've seen Feliz take some very good sliders, and wait for his pitch to hit. I've seen enough evidence to believe (not know) that Feliz can recognize the pitches, but he's one of those high-maintenance guys who must concentrate on concentrating. There are a lot of guys out there, and they need a coach to stay on them to stay that way. I say that knowing more than a few players who have said that about their favorite coaches (notably, I hear that a lot about Sakata, and more and more about Kelly).

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Aug 18, 2007 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

As for instance, after Matt Williams dreadful '92 season, Bobby Bonds worked hard with him on laying off the outside breaking balls, and for at least the entire '93 season he would yell instructions to Matt between every pitch. They even had some kind of ritualistic nemonic device (which appeared to be Matt biting the shoulder of his jersey) which was supposed to remind Williams of some swing mechanics he was supposed to stay focused on.

Brute's right, no matter how good these guys are, coaches exist for a reason. They do have a helpful role to play.

by Roger on Aug 18, 2007 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions

Matt Williams...

..biting his shoulder. Ah, good times. Now I'm getting all verklempt.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Aug 18, 2007 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions

As to the Zito comment

Actually Zito's performance this year is in keeping with his peripherals over the last few years. He had a low ERA over the last couple years due primarily to luck. Zito peaked in 2002 and is slowly fading.

However Zito does seem to know that he sucks, since he wanted to change to a new motion. So if Rags is worth his salt he'll help Zito make it work.

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Aug 16, 2007 11:03 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

I think the Giants DO have a plan. As for accountability, I can't say (although seeing Brian Sabean being rehired makes me worry in that regard).

As for the plan, the Giants are clearly going to follow through on last off-season's promise to get younger. I think that plan fell through last winter when they were unable to attract either of the top free agents (Soriano and Lee).

But in just over a year we have seen the Giants add Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona and six picks in this year's top 51. They have signed their first 29 draft picks.

The Matt Morris trade signaled that they are sincere about getting younger, even if it means winning fewer games in the short run. I suspect Brian would like to trade several other veterans, as well -- and still has two weeks to do so and have those veterans be eligible for the post-season.

Is there a team that has two more promising 23-year-olds or younger than Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain? The Giants pitching staff has actually become a fairly young one -- and still is above-average. That is what the Giants would like to accomplish with their hitting.

I'm fine with the plan for the future. I'm merely amazed that the Giants could allow their team to collapse amid the failure to improve their farm system until 14 months ago. Almost all the Giants best prospects are in A ball or lower.

If one wants a symbol of what went wrong, one merely need look to the high draft picks the Giants gave up as recently as two and a half years ago. Good teams build from within, then add the final pieces via trade and free agency. The Giants in recent years have found themselves having to rely on aging veterans acquired primarily via free agency as bandaids to hold their post-season hopes together.

Not only did that strategy have mixed results at the major league level, it gutted the Giants from within. The plan is here. It is merely about five years too late.

by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2007 12:25 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

First off let me say that I think Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain are stars in the making. However, I do think there's a tendency for fans here to get a superior sense of exclusivity about our situation of having two such young future stars. So the answer to your question, is there a team that has two such promising 23 year olds is: more than you think.

Herewith a list of teams with two or more players, age 23 season or younger, who have a very promising future, with All Star games and hardware quite possible:

Braves: Brian McCann and Jeff Franceour are both 23

Brewers: Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun 23
Yovani Gallardo 21

DRays: Scott Kazmir 23
BJ Upton 22
Delmon Young 21
Hon. Mention Edwin Jackson (still 23 has quietly started to turn his career around and resemble his helium prospect younger self)

Dbacks: Chris Young 23
Justin Upton 19
Hon. Mention, Steven Drew (24) still has a very promising future, also have Miguel Montero (23) and Mark Reynolds (23)

D*#$gers James Loney 23
Matt Kemp 23
Jonathan Broxton 23
Chad Billinsgly 22 season

Mariners: Felix Hernandez 21
Adam Jones 21

Marlins: Hanley Ramirez 23
Scott Olson 23
Jeremy Hermida (dimmed star) 23
Hon Men: Miguell Cabrera turned 24 in season

Mets: Jose Reyes turned 24 in June
Lastings Milledge 22

Rockies: a little underwhelming, but still:
Ubaldo Jimenez 23
Troy Tulowitski 22
Ian Stewart (recently called up) 22

Royals: Zack Greinke (dimmed star) 23
Alex Gordon 23
Billy Butler 21

Twins: Francisco Liriano 23
Matt Garza 23
Hon. Men: Joe Mauer turned 24 in April

Yanks: Melky Cabrera 22 season
Phil Hughes 21 (in June)
Joba Chamberlain 21

Also a couple of specially honorable honorable mentions:

Tigers: Jeremy Bonderman 24
Justin Verlander 24
Joel Zumaya 22
Andrew Miller 22

Angels: Howie Kendrick 24
Casey Kotchman 24
Brandon Wood (someday soon) 22

So you see, our situation isn't really as unique as you might think, and we're not really as far in front of the curve as we might like. Because the most noticeable thing about this list is how many of these teams are in much better shape than we are aside from these young budding stars. Many of these teams are in playoff contention this year and have very bright futures.

We have to worry whether or not Matt Cain will reach his free agency year having ever played on a .500 team, or put another way, whether Matt and Tim will ever play on the same team as Angel or whether they will be ships passing on in a long night of losing seasons. Blech!

by Roger on Aug 17, 2007 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Addendum, couple call ups for today:

Tigers Cameron Maybin 19

Red Sox Clay Bucholz 23

by Roger on Aug 17, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

how do you forget DAVID FREAKIN WRIGHT?!

by MikeyJ on Aug 17, 2007 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

He's not under 23.

by Roger on Aug 18, 2007 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Roger, I took sharksrog's post to imply pitchers 23 or under, since he says the Giants would now like to reproduce that effort among the hitters. As such, only the Dodgers (Billingsley and Broxton), Twins (Liriano and Garza), Tigers (Zumaya and Miller), and Yankees (Hughes and Chamberlain) would compare at all.

And I'd have to say that, to this point, Cain & Lincecum have proven more at the ML level than any of those other duos, although each has loads of terrific potential.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Aug 18, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Ah, I took him to be talking about young talent in general and my point was that we're not as exceptional as some of us might guess. Even so, note that all of the teams you mention (and the Tigers are the real eyepoppers to me) have these young guns but are also in very legitimate playoff contention. So they really are building one something.

We've got a couple of young stars but a wasteland around them. If you subscribe tot he idea that next year is going to 100-loss bad, well how long do you believe the turnaround from 100 losses to 85-90 wins is? One year's pretty unrealistic. So 2, 3? Now you've arrived at Matt Cain's walk year and if gets there never having played on a winning team (and looks at his career goals and sees the Giants having cost him 40-50 wins) he's not staying. So what have we built. That seems the serious problem to me. How are we going to turn it aroudn quickly enough for these young guys with potential to want to give us their star years, and not someone else?

by Roger on Aug 19, 2007 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions

Cain & Lincecum waiting for help...

I think you've asked an excellent question. I hope Brian Sabean stays awake at night pondering the same thing.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Aug 20, 2007 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Why I'm Pi$$ed

Interesting comment above about Lefebvre waiting for hitters to come to him as opposed to him coming to them. Which made me think, if I was a young player on the Giants, who do I ask for hitting advice:
Joe Lefebvre or Barry Bonds?

As far as building a team goes, I have to agree with the Atlanta approach: build your farm system, invest the time, money and personnel, and you will bear fruit IF IT'S MANAGED CORRECTLY. And like sharksrog said, add the remaining parts through FA and trades.

The bottom line with this team is that we shall go through the darkness, and that'll be our cross to bear for a couple of years, but it'll all hit on all cylinders eventually.

by Van Smack on Aug 17, 2007 3:04 PM PDT reply actions

Comments For This Post Are Closed

Search

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Andres Torres : Decisive Battle

by jctGamer about 4 hours ago

39 comments | 10 recs

Friday 7/30 Trade Deadline thread (AKA you probably don't need to start a new Fanpost thread)

by Goofus about 6 hours ago

296 comments | 5 recs

Thursday 7/29 Trade Rumors, Thoughts & Opinions - Share Them Here

by Goofus 1 day ago

88 comments | 6 recs

Last_place_small

Trip to Chavez Latrine (a few pics)

by IanRogue 1 day ago

23 comments | 4 recs

Official Sacramento Meet Up -- Grizzlies @ River Cats

by kdl 2 days ago

41 comments | 4 recs

Recent FanPosts

Is Belt the Left Handed bat they need?

by lexluth7 about 5 hours ago

67 comments

Does Dunn's defense really matter?

by AngelWillSaveUs about 16 hours ago

52 comments

Droppin Like Flies

by Andy Warpath about 17 hours ago

57 comments

OT: University of San Francisco HELP!

by bayhey about 23 hours ago

10 comments

Sp-giants21_ph_t_0501991449_part6_small

How to ruin a farm system (Or: Be grateful for Sabean)

by GiantPain 1 day ago

29 comments

Sabes_dope4_small

Giants among favorites for Dunn

by Cody_ransom 1 day ago

118 comments

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Recent Posts