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State of the Giants (Infield)

Well, watching the team isn't very fun right now, so I decided to run down the roster and take a look at performance and contracts.  I am on record as saying that Sabean didn't put together a horrible team this year.  Not a great team, but certainly not horrible.  The team's actual record is 49-66, but its pythagorean record based on Runs Scored and Runs allowed is 55-60, even with the poor performances.  Unfortunately for Sabean and for us, no one has had a career year, and every one of the vets save Randy Winn has completely tanked.  It was foreseeable that the team wouldn't win 90 games, but it wasn't exactly reasonable to think they would be this bad.  With that in mind, on to the players, by position:

Catcher

Bengie Molina
07:$4M, 08:$6M, 09:$6M (plus some bonuses)
2007 Line:  .272/.294/.416
Since ASB:  .244/.269/.400

Oh my.  Catcher is not a position that ages well, and yet, Sabean signed Molina through 2009 despite having little competition.  Bengie's early season heroics aside, he hasn't hit well, and it isn't his home park (.739 home OPS, .680 road OPS).  This is ugly and unlikely to get better as Bengie goes into his age 33 and 34 seasons.  Awful signing, and the team will either have to eat the $6m Bengie is owed each of the next two seasons or just have a catcher who sucks.  That would be easier to do if the team didn't suck at many other positions.

Eliezer Alfonzo, Guillermo Rodriguez
Minimum salary or close to it for both.

Serviceable backups.  Nothing to see here.  This is Alfonzo's job when he returns.

Minor League Help:  Justin Knoedler.  Nothing to indicate he will be much better or worse than Alfonzo and Rodriguez.

First Base

Ryan Klesko
07: $1.5M, with additional $0.25M donated to Klesko's foundation
2007 Line:  .266/.355/.415
Since ASB:  .202/.290/.281

The good news is that Klesko is a FA at the end of the season.  It seems as if opposing teams has figured out that Klesko no longer has HR power, so they go right after him, and he can't do anything with the pitches.  He was a nice FA flyer, but Lance Niekro might be a better choice at this point, especially against LHP.  Klesko will be gone after this season, so look forward to a FA signing of...  uhhh...  Kevin Millar?  Ok, maybe not.  1B for the Giants next year will either be manned by a converted OFer or someone acquired by trade, or both.  I would like to see the Giants get the Phillies to eat a chunk of Pat Burrell's salary and put him at 1B.  If not, just pay Pat the Bat's $14m for next year and clear the $$ for 2009.

Rich Aurilia
07:$3.5M, 08:$4.5M
2007 Line:  .253/.299/.273
Since ASB:  .262/.326/.381 (in 46 PA)

Aurilia at 3B was one thing.  Aurilia at 1B is entirely another.  Also, why did Sabean sign Aurilia for two years?  At any rate, it isn't just his home park that is killing him, as Aurilia is worse on the road than at home.  FWIW, Aurilia has battled injuries this year.  At any rate, the team hasn't exactly missed him, and now they get to pay him $4.5m next year for no apparent reason.  Trade Aurilia?  Heh.  Good luck.

Minor League Help:  Lance Niekro.  I know, Niekro isn't much "help," but have you seen the numbers for the other guys?  Maybe he can mash some lefties.

Second Base

Ray Durham
07:$7M, 08:$7.5M
2007 Line:  .230/.306/.365
Since ASB:  .167/.261/.250 (!!)

Congratulations, Ray, you are the 2007 San Francisco Giants LVP!  Remember the 2006, 127 OPS+ bundle of power-hitting awesome that was the Sugahman?  The sweetness is gone.  Ray sucks at home, on the road, as a LHB, as a RHB - complete suck.  His defense is subpar, he no longer has speed, he no longer has power.  Is he hurt?  Let's hope so, because his $7.5m salary means that nobody will want him.  He could get traded in the offseason, but the team may have to eat some salary.

Kevin Frandsen
Minimum Salary
2007 Line:  .219/.280/.281
Since ASB:  .127/.155/.127

In case you are wondering why Durham is still in the lineup, Frandsen's line provides some clues.  Still, Free Kevin Frandsen!  With the season lost, it is long past time to give Frandsen a chance to get regular ABs at a regular position.  His minor league numbers say that he is better than this and he lacks the alarming K rates of Todd Linden.  Frandsen may not be the answer, but no one else in the organization is either.  Pencil him in at 2B every day, Bochy.

Minor League Help:  None.  (Come on - Bergolla and Ochoa?  That isn't "help")

Third Base

Pedro Feliz
07: $5.1m plus some bonuses for PA
2007 Line:  .254/.293/.425
Since ASB:  .311/.357/.481 (!)

Is Pedro Feliz the most predictable guy in baseball?  His line is basically the same every year.  Don't be fooled by the second half numbers.  Pedro is 32 years old, and although he may put up a career year, he isn't going to be substantially a different player than he is now.  He won't learn to hit the slider.  He won't learn patience.  That doesn't mean he isn't a useful player, as he is a great fielder - no - an EXCELLENT fielder.  The best in baseball at 3B, Feliz actually saves countless runs.  OK, we can count them, actually.  Given that the going rate for marginal wins in MLB is about $2.5m per, Feliz has outperformed his salary (3.2 WARP so far!).  Does this mean that Feliz should get a $9-$10m contract for next year?  Probably not on this offense-challenged team, but keeping Feliz in his old supersub backup role would be a good move - brilliant 3B, great 1B, passable OF, SS in a pinch?  Why not?  His numbers against LHP are pretty decent too.  Mike Lowell would be a fine replacement, but not for 3 years, ok Sabean?

Backups:  see Aurilia and Frandsen

Minor League Help:  Justin Leone.  Leone isn't very good, but he probably isn't much worse than Feliz.  Remember, we need upgrades.

Shortstop

Omar Vizquel
07:$4M ($0.1m bonus for Gold Glove)
2007 Line:  .256/.310/.315
Since ASB:  .314/.381/.373

Nearly at the end of a brilliant career, Omar looked for all the world like he had tumbled straight off the cliff this season.  Fortunately for Omar, the team has no viable alternative at SS.  Let's say that again:  the Giants have no viable alternative for a 40-year-old SS.  Dreamy will be a reasonable defensive SS until age 60, but his defense would need to be at Adam Everett-type levels to justify having his bat in the lineup.  Sure, if the team gets two big bats to go with Bonds next year then maybe Omar would be ok, but when you realize that one of the OF spots is probably going to be Winn, Lewis, or Schierholtz, that there is no top offensive 2Bman available, that Feliz may be back, that 1B may not be that great... what's the point?  Unfortunately, David Eckstein is probably the top SS FA after this season.  We're going to suck next year.

Backup:  Frandsen, who can't really play SS.  Aurilia can't play SS anymore either.

Minor League Help:  heh.  Bergolla?  Ochoa?  De la Rosa?  That other guy?  So none.  We are a good two-three years away from Burriss or Bocock.

Poll
Which current Giants infielder would you most like to see start next year?
Pedro Feliz
36 votes
Omar Vizquel
41 votes
Ray Durham
2 votes
Kevin Frandsen
35 votes
Rich Aurilia
1 votes
Ryan Klesko
3 votes

118 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs  |  Comment 42 comments

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Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Next year will be brutal, no two ways about it. Even if Bonds stays (and I'm not sure I want him) and we acquire Alex Rodriguez, and Nate Schierholtz hits .300, we probably won't get over .500. That would be an occasionally entertaining team, although way too expensive for the number of wins generated.

The pigeons will be coming home to roost. Thank you, Brian Sabean, for your careful foresight.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Aug 12, 2007 7:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Great analysis North Side. It's a trick poll question of course since I wouldn't "like" to see any of them start next year, at least under the conditions we can expect. Omar's second-half stats are inflated, based on what I've been listening to on Gameday, by an amazing number of dinks and dribblers that have fallen in the right spots. I fear the first half is more indicative of what we would see at the plate. If we had the lineup to confine Pedro to 7th and Omar to 8th, I'd be happy to see both back because I believe good fielding is very important to our young pitching staff. But we don't have that lineup so it's probably better to gamble on some younger players and see what happens. Both players are likely to worth more to someone else than they are to us.

by NearestNorwich on Aug 12, 2007 8:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yeah, I had another poll answer:  "Are you kidding?  All of these guys suck donkeys!"  I erased it after realizing that it would get 96% of the choices.

Omar might be really lucky.  His post-ASB BABIP is .330, but it was .263 before the break, so nothing was falling in.  He deserves a bit of turnaround in luck, but yeah, he shouldn't be expected to do much next year.  But who is going to be available?

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pedro?
Why not move Pedro over to SS and go dumpster diving for a 3B, since we're not getting ARod?  Pedro could play passable D at SS and is offense, while putrid at 3B, would at least not be a negative at SS.

by DrBGiantsfan on Aug 12, 2007 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
If Pedro is THAT good at 3B, then how terrible can he be at SS?  I would definitely consider it.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
I really like this idea.
zhongguo mei you bangqiu

by oldjacket on Aug 12, 2007 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
I do too. I'm clearly not a Feliz fan, but I didn't think he was too bad when he played SS some a few years back. He had trouble turning DP's, but that would likely improve with experience, and SS is one place where his offensive numbers wouldn't look too bad, especially with the 20+ HR power.

by English Professor on Aug 12, 2007 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
Ditto. Pedro's offense is Mendoza-esque, but I think giving him a shot at SS is a pretty good idea.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Aug 12, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
I don't like him at short at all. If I remember correctly, he hasn't been very good over there in the past. Someone suggested Cesar Izturis on today's gameday thread. It's a very unsexy signing, but it's a good move. He's still only 27, plays great defense, and has some streaks where he can hit. All that young pitching needs as much defense as you can get.
Randy Messenger says,"doubleheader on Monday?? Give me the damn ball. I'll save the first game and pitch a shutout in game two!!"

by rxmeister on Aug 12, 2007 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
His UZR this season is -9 per 150 and he has the same career OPS+ as Omar's current OPS+.

Pass.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 12, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
I tend to agree with you, but I would be more comfortable looking at a 2 or 3 year UZR total for Izturis, weighted toward recent performance, with some adjustment for Vizquel's age decline and Izturis going into his prime years.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
This is true, but I do seem to remember looking at UZR numbers from year's past and finding that Izturis's were surprisingly low, compared to how he looks in the field and how announcers rave about him. Obviously, MGL has tweaked the formula in recent years, but I have a strong recollection of looking at past UZR numbers for Izturis and finding that they were good, but not great. (And with his bat, obviously, to be a legit starting player, they ought to be Vizquel-like.)

From what I could find googling around, he was +5 from 00-03. So a very poor hitter and a slightly above average defender at best (or so it seems)... to be honest, I'd rather bring Omar back for a year.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 12, 2007 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
I think it's a different skill set.  Third base is all about reaction time and arm strength.  Shortstop is all about range and quickness.  Pedro is good at third.  I don't think he'd be nearly the defender at short.
Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Aug 12, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
That's what I am worried about.  The UZR numbers, though, are only for range and not for arm.  MGL has separate numbers for arm.

These decisions shouldn't be made in a vacuum, of course.  It really comes down to [Feliz value at SS, offense and defense, plus Potential 3B value, offense and defense].  If the team can get a better SS and keep Feliz at 3B, and that predicted value outweighs Feliz at SS and potential 3B, then do so.  If not, then go the other way around.

All of these decisions are going to hinge on cost as well.  What I question is whether the Giants do anything to attempt to quantify these values in terms of price and wins.  I would bet that they don't.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pedro?
Exactly, not enough range to play SS and it will likely decline further as he ages.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 13, 2007 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Robby Thompson isn't one of the choices?
I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on Aug 12, 2007 9:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Here are the UZR numbers (latest available - through July 9) for the infielders.

Each number is runs saved per 150 games at the player's primary position, unless otherwise noted.  Every 10 runs either way equals a win.

Klesko:  +13 (didn't think that, did you?)

Durham:  -6

Frandsen:  +10 2B (small sample, even smaller sample at other positions)

Vizquel:  +21

Feliz:  +43 (WOW - probably won't be that good at end of season)

Aurilia:  small samples throughout, but biggest sample is +19 at 1B.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 9:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Aurilia has been surprisingly good at first in the games I've listened to. I guess fielding the other infield positions is great training for picking bad throws at first. But he's not as tall as I'd like and the alternatives are also good fielders, so that's not the issue.

by NearestNorwich on Aug 12, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yeah, one would expect a guy from the middle infield to dominate at 1st, although the UZR numbers don't count receiving throws.

How good can you be at 1B, though?  One way that a fielder gets huge UZR numbers (e.g. Kevin Millar) is by moving into the second baseman's zone, which is fairly pointless given that the 2Bman probably would have made the play anyway.  It also means that the play is harder because the 1Bman has to go to the pitcher covering.

It doesn't really matter, though, because Aurilia doesn't have half the bat to play first.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
I still am kind of skeptical about 1B UZR numbers, but wow, Pedro is good.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 12, 2007 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote for NONE
all those guys needs to go. I suppose we could keep Omar just for his defense, but his offense is seriously on the decline. None of those other guys is an everyday major league starter.
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 12, 2007 2:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: I vote for All of the Above
To be shipped out by Cattle Car to Fartzalot Nebraska of the Adult Diaper League
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 12, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

36
The Early Vegas line on Giants Win Total for 2008

Multi year contracts into 2008

Roberts
Winn
Molina
Durham
Aurelia
Zito
Bochy
Sabaen

"Ladies and Gentlemen; YOUR 2008 SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS!"

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 12, 2007 4:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 36
Wow, this team not only sucks now, they are gonna suck for awhile.  With all of this young pitching, it doesn't seem like they are too far away though, but it might be a good idea to build a little through free agency, make some good top draft picks, and build for the 2009-10 seasons when Cain and Lincecum hit their strides.
Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums.

by rod beck on Aug 13, 2007 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
He has been mentioned by others here before, but I was wondering if Clint Barmes had any value left?  If he did would it take a lot to get him?  He isn't getting his job back in Colorado anytime soon.
Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Welcome Back!

by sfgreg on Aug 12, 2007 4:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
I think if you buy an autographed bat from Matt Holliday, Clint Barmes comes as a gift with purchase.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Can I just have the bat?
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 12, 2007 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
LOL, I get the point.  Time to look into other options.
Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Welcome Back!

by sfgreg on Aug 12, 2007 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
wed have to overpay for him because they are in our division.. remember ryan shealy last year?

by Azmanz on Aug 12, 2007 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yes, but amazingly enough, you would only have to overpay for the bat.  Barmes still comes as a gift with purchase.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 12, 2007 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
You are forgeting about what I think might be the most interesting option the Giants currently have in their system at either SS or 2B.  This guy wwas the Sally League MVP last year at Augusta playing SS and is hitting .304 this year in an extreme pithers' league (Eastern League) and even more extreme pitchers' park (Dodd's Field) playing 2B.  He is on the forty man roster and I fully expect to see him on the Giants in September.

For those who don't know who I am talking about check him out:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Eugenio%20Velez&pos=&sid=milb& t=p_pbp&pid=464299

by giantsrainman on Aug 13, 2007 12:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Velez has been moved (permanently, I think) to CF.

There were reports that he had some weaknesses going to his backhand, which made him a less than adequate option in the infield.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 13, 2007 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yeah, he is discussed in Steve's Minor Lines all the time.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 13, 2007 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
There was a column in the Sacramento Bee a week ago or so from someone that previously had recommended that we dump Bonds.  However after looking at the team for next year recommended resigning Bonds (if we could get him at a reasonable price $5 million or so) and moving him to first base where his lack of mobility would be less of a detriment.

by paboperfecto on Aug 13, 2007 10:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
5 million is still low (even reasonably speaking), and rumours of Bonds's detrimental left field defense have been greatly exaggerated (especially when he usually has a late innings defensive replacement anyway).

People have been suggesting that Bonds play first for years now, to no avail.

It's his bat that makes a difference to the team, though, not his defense, and if we have somebody like Davis in CF, anyway, we can easily afford limited range in left.

Anyway, my only point is that the difference between Bonds at first and Bonds in left won't likely be enough to make a reasonable difference (if the numbers don't supprt that, though, I'm happy to relent), so the suggestion isn't much more than somebody unnecessarily shuffling things around to try to convince themself what they know is true to begin with but don't want to admit foll bore: Bonds in '08 is good for the Giants.

The argument about Bonds playing first limiting his running and possibly keeping him healthier and fresher is an intriuing one that I would definitely entertain, and we could DEFINITELY use a power hitting first baseman, though we'd still have to more or less replace his power in left...

I just don't see Barry playing first base, though. Does anybody?

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 13, 2007 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yeah, many people have wanted Bonds to go to first, but it just isn't that simple.  Bonds is 43 years old and has never played first.  There is a school of thought that says that first base is tougher on the knees than OF, because of all of the bending and stretching.  Plus, there is the footwork, the diving for balls, how to throw to second on a grounder, where to back guys up, etc that Bonds would be learning from scratch.

It seems as if anyone can play first base, but remember Sheffield at first?  Piazza at first?  Bonds at first, even if he is willing to try it, could be an absolute disaster.  I don't see it happening at all.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 13, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
Yes, and all the quick stops and starts would be harder on his wheels, as well.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 13, 2007 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
I don't see it happening either, it was fun to think about it.  Bonds to me seems the type that has his position and is going to stick with it.  He may give it up to DH if he gets an offer to do that, but other than that I don't see him willingly playing any position besides LF.

by paboperfecto on Aug 13, 2007 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
I voted for Durham.  Because he's signed, and better than Aurilia.  The only other guy I would consider resigning would be Klesko, and not for much more than he's making now.  

by zenbitz on Aug 13, 2007 2:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: State of the Giants (Infield)
This is a very, very depressing thread.  However, there is some hope:

"$0.25M donated to Klesko's foundation".

Maybe they'll discover a cure for jerkitude and a vaccine for sucking a$$ by February.  A baseball park is a terrible thing to waste.  

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Aug 13, 2007 6:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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