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Around SBN: Notre Dame's Turnaround: How Have The Irish Done It?

Estes's Ghost: The Return

We're 1/14th through the Barry Zito contract. To put that into perspective, that's the equivalent of the first 12.5 minutes of The Godfather. That's when Michael Corleone is just arriving at the wedding. All we know is that Al Pacino is playing some sort of soldier-type; the rest of the story is completely open. So take heart, Zito-watchers. It took a lot for Michael to go from a spit-and-polish war hero to the leader of an organized crime family. There was a progression, an arc. Things happened. Nothing stayed the same. Maybe Zito still has a chance to be average or good.

Or maybe Zito will start for the Giants in a playoff game in 2013, which could be their first in 10 years. And maybe as the 82-mph fastballs are ripped past various fielders, and as eighth- and ninth-place hitters are walked on 17 pitches each, we can cut to various members of the ownership group getting pushed out or bought out. Yeah, that's the better analogy.

Pitching coach Ron Perranoski IV: Do you renounce walks?

Barry Zito: Uh, not really. I mean, I renounce the idea of walks, but I can't really do much about the actual walks. I've been trying different things over the past few decades: meditation, computerized analysis of my motion, breathing techniques, humming "Dancing Nancies" to myself when I start my motion...nothing works. Maybe that's a good thing, though, because I had to stop throwing my curveball after '11. When I actually throw this little league fastball in the strike zone, it tends to go out faster than it went in. I should probably see about getting a second pitch soon.

Perranoski IV: Just say "I do renounce them."

Zito: I do renounce them.

Six-and-a-half more years. Even the super-pessimistic fans didn't see this coming. The peripherals were declining, so maybe he'd be slightly above-average this season, average the next season, and have a sharp decline after that. If that preseason pessimism from the Eeyores around here proved to be accurate, the Zito contract might have been the worst contract in baseball history. Having him suck right out of the chute? It's time to panic like somebody said the secret word. If Vlad Guerrero's back didn't force him to retire last year, I'd be really upset about the misallocation of funds.

So go back and revisit the Zito Worry-O-Meter here, and update your level of panic. I was at a "5"; now I'm at an "8". There's a long way to go in this contract, but the only way I could see things improving would be for Zito to magically develop pinpoint command. If Randy Johnson could do it in his late-20s, it isn't impossible. It's just not bloody likely.

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Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
8, though Tom Gorzelanny is probably the wrong name to use there now. I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't trade Zito for Gorzelanny at this point.

I was willing to give Zito a chance to improve, but it's just gotten worse. Rotoworld says he's given up 6 or more runs in 6 of 18 starts this season... so a third of the time, he's gone out there and just got bombed. Seriously, what the hell? I don't get how he was able to be so successful for such a long time in Oakland... his stuff is nothing special and he has no command of it.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 9, 2007 9:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Various members of the ownership group...
...pushed out a 14th floor window.
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 9, 2007 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Various members of the ownership group...
People on the 14th floor, you know where the f-ck you are. If you jump, you will die sooner!
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 9, 2007 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I have a couple of completely nonscientific theories.

-He's old (27?!) and past his prime
-He misses the crazy shenanigans of those partying A's
-He misses his boyfriend Billy Beane
-He doesn't think he gets enough run support
-He fucked with his delivery over the winter and it's set him back

What do you guys think?

Notgardo says: I aten't dead yet! My adopt-a-Giant speaks to Jesus Christ all night, and lives to tell the tale.

by tk on Jul 9, 2007 9:48 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I think you might have your Billy Beanes confused. They're two different guys.  

Sincerely,
The beane Counter
:-P

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Jul 9, 2007 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

A hill of Beanes
Nope, I know the difference ... I still think "with-an-E" and Zito were an OTP. Blame it on the Internets.
Notgardo says: I aten't dead yet! My adopt-a-Giant speaks to Jesus Christ all night, and lives to tell the tale.

by tk on Jul 9, 2007 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I guess I'm down to a 7 from a 4 since he's looked so bad.  The only reason I have any hope left is that there doesn't seem to be any physical explanation for his so-called decline.  His stuff doesn't look much different than it did when he was having success, so I still have some hope that he can turn it around a be a useful pitcher.
If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 9, 2007 9:54 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm feeling about the same.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Jul 9, 2007 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is how I feel...
Let's Go Mets!
The die is cast , the deed is done , the man can't compete consistently at an acceptable level...and all we can effectively do about it is this:
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Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 9, 2007 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I must protest the claim that even the super-pessimistic fans didn't see this coming. This is exactly what the super-pessimistic fans saw coming. From 2004-06, Zito's fielding-independent ERAs were 4.65, 4.52, and 4.94; in 2007, it's 4.85. The pitcher he has been with the Giants is exactly the pitcher he has been for years.

My only hope is that the changes to his delivery over the winter, the ones that Righetti talked him out of, indicate an awareness on Zito's part that his old tricks aren't really working any more, and he needs to figure out how to add some velocity or otherwise shake things up. Maybe he can try it again this winter, and actually get some support from the organization.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2007 9:56 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Glad you mentioned this. I'm intrigued by the possibility of Zito going back to that "college" windup he experimented with.

by Dan from NM on Jul 9, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
DrB's thoughts on Zito and his delivery make a lot of sense to me.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I agree. This is the exact pitcher he has been for the last three years. All of the folks claiming "But he's different! He can keep his era low despite allowing tons of baserunners and striking people out!!!1!"  were just crazy or in denial.

by mxmob33 on Jul 9, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
At least Estes could hit.
"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by getnby on Jul 9, 2007 10:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
If only he could have slid into 2nd.
If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 9, 2007 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaBOOM!
Every time I remember that play, my head explodes.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 9, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I just miss that 1/2 point of ERA he was supposed to get when facing the NL.

by zenbitz on Jul 9, 2007 10:06 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm afraid he's already gotten it, Zen.
Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 9, 2007 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Oh, and if the Zito contract is the final nail in the Sabean coffin (crosses finger), it will be worth it.

by zenbitz on Jul 9, 2007 10:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm pretty sure Zito was Magowan's and Baer's idea. As was firing Baker. And passing on Vlad. And hiring Alou. And trading Nathan. Magowan has the say so on all big trades and major signings. He keeps reams of stats in his office and recites batting averages better than Bud Selig. He and Baer set the strategy that the roster makeup was going to consist of name recognition. Short term Marketing considerations take precedence over long-term team play/success considerations. Thats not a GMs decision in any organization, much less the meddlesome Magowan/Baer led ownership group.

Anybody blaming Sabaen for this mess is blaming the wrong guy unless you want to pin the retention of Mark Sweeny and the trading of Jason Ellison as the cause of the Giants demise.

"I'm an old blowhard who has the only opinion that matters and you're stupid" -- I'm E and I endorse this message.

by E Ticket on Jul 9, 2007 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm pretty sure Zito was Magowan's and Baer's idea.

Me too. It seems clear that Sabean was given a brief to land a big-name free agent, basically as a public-relations move.

But Sabean needs to be fired anyway. Even if you let him off the hook for the big moves (the ones that a good GM would talk his boss out of making), he has proven repeatedly that just he's a poor judge of ballplayers. Over and over again, he has passed up better, cheaper players in order to acquire dispiriting, injury-prone mediocrities.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2007 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Is there any evidence of this?  And besides, it's still the GMs job to set the salary.

by zenbitz on Jul 9, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I thought this was an interesting tid-bit from a chat on ESPN today:
Joe (SF): Barry Zito-worst signing ever! It may be early, but I have no faith and it at least cracks the top 10 of bad signings with Mike Hampton and Darren Dreifort. Any news on when Sabes gets the axe?

 Buster Olney: Joe: Kevin Kernan of the NY Post reported on TV the other day that he's hearing that Brian Sabean will be let go after the All-Star break. Either way, it's hard to imagine him returning for '08...

And I do realize this is ESPN quoting a guy from the NY Post.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 9, 2007 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
We can dream...
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 9, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
What's wrong with the concept of having Zito simply sit in the dugout strumming his gee-tar and singing "Suicide is Painless"?  For 7 years.  Or humming, if he can't sing.
"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by getnby on Jul 9, 2007 10:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
He can play guitar and Omar can sing "Don't Look Back (On the Zito Contract) In Anger".
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 9, 2007 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Its the weight of the contract. I think Zito is one of those guys that actually cares about what people think of him. He thinks they think he is overpaid and because he talked himself into one of the most ridiculous contracts ever, he is putting excess pressure on himself.  

Its all mental, I think. It breaks his concentration incessantly on the mound, he loses focus right in the middle of his delivery, his mechanics are breaking down and he's routinely falling out of his arm slot while his arm drags and a whole bunch of crap we would expect to see from somebody who can't find a clue with a rake. Thats why his fastball is flat and wild, and his curve roly poly like in a pie throwing contest.

He could get everything back after the all-star break and it wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand it could take until next season. Or until the next polar shift.

"I'm an old blowhard who has the only opinion that matters and you're stupid" -- I'm E and I endorse this message.

by E Ticket on Jul 9, 2007 10:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I always knew he was a headcase...
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 9, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
It is one of the primary considerations for being a pitcher. Its the first question they ask on a player profile: "Are you out of your tree for at least 12 hours per day?"  "Do you often talk to chipmunks?"  "True or False:  If you listen real close, baseballs speak Spanish"  

And so it goes.

"I'm an old blowhard who has the only opinion that matters and you're stupid" -- I'm E and I endorse this message.

by E Ticket on Jul 9, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
You and me both, sista.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 9, 2007 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm with E on this.  I think it's like what Bochy said, once Zito chills about the contract, he'll be fine.  

Given all his zen crap, though, one would have thought that adjustment period would have been much shorter.

"I'm a Giant now" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 9, 2007 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
If what we're getting out of this deal is a durable 250 innings guy who goes 10-15 every year, it just seems to me like we shoulda hung onto Livan.  Matter of fact, Livan looks better and better as this season progresses.

Head cases are legion.  Hammaker, Estes, and now Zito?

"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by getnby on Jul 9, 2007 10:28 AM PDT reply actions  

More headcases
Tomko ... umm ... Herges?
Notgardo says: I aten't dead yet! My adopt-a-Giant speaks to Jesus Christ all night, and lives to tell the tale.

by tk on Jul 9, 2007 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he's never played for a team that was worse than .543, and won it's division 4 out of 7 years, with a wild card thrown in.

I mean, why kill yourself for the 2007 SF Giants?

by zenbitz on Jul 9, 2007 10:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Just a guess, but I'll bet that either Zito or his agent actually knew who they were signing with.
"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by getnby on Jul 9, 2007 10:43 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Thanks for the link back, Grant. Yes indeed, there were plenty of us doubters. That being said, I do hope Barry miraculously finds his stuff after the ASB and finishes strongly. Or, more along the lines of E's suggestion, maybe next year he just stops trying to pitch up to the contract, relaxes, and regains some of his former skill set. Maybe. Or maybe he's been in decline since 2002, like Evan said previously.
Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 9, 2007 12:51 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
So all he needs to do is give the money back. Start at Zero and work up to minimum wage.

by robbgin on Jul 9, 2007 1:00 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I think I was a 4 or 5 on that scale originally.  I'm at an 8 now, and one more consecutive bad outing will push me over to a 9.

If he's a headcase, nothing will fix him as long as the contract is in effect...

by Skaldheim on Jul 9, 2007 1:10 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Steinbrenner, Cashman, Sabean
Dumb, Dumber, Dumbest
We all have a cross to bear you guys just picked the heaviest and most awkward to carry.
The only thing that keeps us pinstripers going is knowing we did it 26 times, don't know how you guys can stand it.
yankeefan "If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by yankeefan57 on Jul 9, 2007 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
It's worse than you think. There's no light at the end of this tunnel. Some nice young pitchers, but not much else. We'll be all set to contend sometime in the next decade at the earliest.
Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. He's garbage.

by Punch Rockgroin on Jul 9, 2007 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

10
Can we still give a plane ticket to Woody to start playing agian?
Lance Niekro AAA Watch: 66 AB .318/.395/.515 5 2B 1 3B 2 HR 8 BB (through 6/24)

by WalrusMan on Jul 9, 2007 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: 10
Gaylord Perry's still in town, right?
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - grounded for LIFE

by Natto on Jul 9, 2007 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm not worried.  He has shown flashes of brilliance.  I think he is just having a down year and is adjusting.  I don't think he will justify the $$ when all is said and done, but I also don't think he will be awful.

by positiveuphemism on Jul 9, 2007 2:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
He's been inconsistent...is he still experimenting?
Here's a wacky idea...send him down to Fresno , where he can search for that Lost Chord all he wants and not cost us games (negligible offense notwithstanding). If he finds it...Next Day Air his pale ass back.
  Oh , Fresno would be a slap in Management's face?
Might knock some of that clownface makeup off.
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 9, 2007 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I started as an 8, I'm actually a 6 now.
Curveball pitchers are just always going to be inconsistent. Zito is not a good pitcher, but next year he's just as likely to pitch like this year's Matt Morris instead of last year's Matt Morris.
Still an unconsionably terrible contract, but we're probably seeing the worst it will get right now.

by Voodoo Chile on Jul 9, 2007 6:54 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Last year Matt Morris was still in the recovery phase following a previous surgery. Some of us urged patience at the time; there was no guarantee that he'd bounce back, but it was too early then to make a final judgement on his signing. Zito has no such explanation.
Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 10, 2007 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'm really starting to wonder if he will even be in the league by the end of his contract.  

by Sandor Clegane on Jul 9, 2007 9:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I'd wager he won't. Our next GM will probably ship him off with a couple of years left on his contract for next to nothing. To save some payroll and to just plain be rid of him.

Not that I hate Zito. I think he's a nice pitcher (or can be) not worth his contract. He'd be a perfectly fine fourth or fifth starter. But he's paid like an Ace on a team where 3 homegrown pitchers are outperforming him for next to nothing compared.

Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. He's garbage.

by Punch Rockgroin on Jul 9, 2007 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

e: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Sandor...from "Drawn Together"?

We should start a pool. Year...month...even Day of Announcement.
Side bets for destination.
By the time he DOES leave (In search of his Lost Ability) we'll have amassed a tidy sum.

Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 9, 2007 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
You'd think this would teach me not to give my heart to people just because they're cute white lefthanders.

Of course, if it were that simple, I'd be straight by now.

As a longtime fan of his, and as someone who is attracted to this type (else clearly I would be a fan of people who I find uninteresting and are statistically successful) Zito was seriously spooked out of his mind by the contract and the concomitant pressure. Particularly difficult is how bad the team has been outside of him, which has made the frustrations of the fanbase boil over, a fanbase whose anger has already successfully pushed one looks-good-but-not-working pitcher from merely problematic through to unpopular to hated to out the door. (Hi Mando.)

The size of the contract automatically engendered a very natural resentment among everyone who makes less. That undercut Zito's likeability quotient immensely, without actually having to do with his being likeable. He was a lot more likeable, record aside, when he was making less than a million dollars a year. If Tim Lincecum were not making major league minimum, but, say, was making $10 million a year, he'd be far less liked.

Zito is the kind who notices that, and like E said, it has affected him. He knows he's on probation, that he cannot, cannot, live up to 126 000 000. But he's trying to, which makes things worse. Like in most things particularly baseball, the harder you try ...

I don't know how to fix this. It is a confluence of factors, how bad the team is, how angry and impatient we the fanbase is, the sheer size of the contract. I say this because the usual "remedies" -- release him, trade him, fire the GM, get rid of Magowan and Baer (!?!) -- are far more difficult, with far more negative consequences, than simply accepting this is a bad season (or bad half-season) and believing the abilities that made him so successful, and beloved on the other side of the Bay, will reassert themselves.

There may be something to the send-him-down thing. I read the quote he gave to Schulman in the Gate today. Still sounds calm and reasonable. I think he's repressing, not meditating. To send him down would be an admission not of failure, but of being in trouble, by the front office, and would probably tick him off and get him to snap out of what to me looks a lot like denial.

Barry Zito has been, since he first showed up, my favorite player. Why? Because he's my type, plus he was good. I looked at him and thought he's like Estes (my Shawnie) but level-headed and can pitch in the playoffs. I spent too many years dreaming of him wearing orange and black to turn my back on him now. I'll just grit my teeth and bear it. But I definitely will have a hard time going to see him at the ballpark this season. I won't be able to take the boos.

supporting baseball pr0n since 1999

by shanghaijim on Jul 9, 2007 9:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Your type?
That con artist...Alyssa was just a prop then...
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 9, 2007 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Yes, I'm gay.
supporting baseball pr0n since 1999

by shanghaijim on Jul 11, 2007 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
Yep, all Zito needs is a little love and some MEDITATION.  MEGO.
"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by getnby on Jul 10, 2007 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
That's not what I meant. I meant he should forget the meditation and just lose it, with passion. He's obviously, to me, repressing feelings of failure, and it's making it worse.
supporting baseball pr0n since 1999

by shanghaijim on Jul 11, 2007 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Estes's Ghost: The Return
I would say I've gone froma  5 to a 7 on Grant's scale. With his crappy stuff Zito needs to have command, and he clearly doesn't.

I still think that he could improve and be decent over the next couple years, but the length of this contract pretty much guarantees it will be one of the worst ever.

My VORP is higher than Merkin's VORP.

by Poe on Jul 10, 2007 12:56 PM PDT reply actions  

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