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Cain to bullpen?

"The Giants could have a third candidate to close next season: Matt Cain. The team does not want to mess with him in midseason, but some in the organization believe he has the stuff and bulldog attitude to become another Jonathan Papelbon."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/28/SPBER8UJM2.DTL

Please explain to me the logic of taking Cain out of the starting rotation while keeping Zito in said rotation?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Cain to bullpen?
Only in the mind of Sabean is this a good idea.
Omar Vizquel to Big Sam, "Barton, Viduka, Rozenhal, Geremi, Deco even?...way to go Gaffer, keep up the great work!"

by PacBellBoozer on Jul 28, 2007 8:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
THere is no way in hell that the Giants can SERIOUSLY be contemplating that move.
Sabean stop giving away our first round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Jul 28, 2007 9:05 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I think Sabean was throwing out crap there, and this certainly was crap. I think his point was that Hennessey is the closer for now, Messenger would get a shot if Hennessey fails, and they don't want to waste money on a free agent closer after the season especially when 2008 is going to be a rebuilding season. If the above two fail, they will discuss solutions from within, and this is one possibility.
Randy Messenger: "Who's that fat ugly guy in the Marlin's bullpen that's sitting in my seat??"

by rxmeister on Jul 28, 2007 9:05 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
This idea is like drugs. Just say no to Matt Cain in the bullpen. What would be the point of Cain saving 35 games while the starter who replaces him goes two-thirds through the season with a pitiful record of 3-12?

Wait a second...

I'm always thinking one step ahead, like a carpenter that builds stairs.

by sam urai on Jul 28, 2007 9:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Blecch, yuck, ugh, horrible.

I choose to believe that this is just some goofy leak to indicate to other teams that the Giants are actually eager to keep Matt Morris for next year, and thus drive up his trade value.

But what happened with Brett Myers this season makes me worry.

by Evan on Jul 28, 2007 10:11 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
That was just Henry Schulman speculating.  We wouldn't take Cain out of the rotation to put in the bullpen.

I'd rather keep Cain in the rotation and have a closer by committee situation, if that's what it'd take to keep him in there.

Brian Anderson: generic name, unique talent.

by Anticon23 on Jul 28, 2007 10:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
The way it was written suggests it was Schulman quoting somebody off the record actually.  In addition to wasting Cain's value, it's a terrible idea because a closer absolutely has to be able to throw strikes consistently.  It's just a bad bad idea as everybody here has noted.  Fortunately, there's no reason why Hennessey et al can't handle a job that isn't likely to be all that important to the team next year anyway.

by Roger on Jul 28, 2007 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
The way it was written also suggests that it was Schulman quoting a discussion he overheard from the other room while listening in very intently on the weekly janitorial game of "drinking poker" that makes Thursday the best day to come into work!
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 28, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
More like ZITO to bullpen.

Bullpen is jail, right?

Tony Perezchica: Just like Tony Perez, only a girl!

by dangjackson on Jul 28, 2007 10:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If Cain does not want to pitch from the bullpen
then he should pick up his game. If he is doing his job as a starter then SF would not be considering his move to the bullpen.

by wilriv21 on Jul 28, 2007 11:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: If Cain does not want to pitch from the bullpe
I think the point was that even if Cain is struggling, Zito and Morris are struggling more so it would be a bit unfair to claim that it was a performance-related move.

Also, as many have pointed out, a closer on a last-place team is kind of a formality.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 28, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course it is about performance
If Cain was dealing this would not be an issue or a concern.

by wilriv21 on Jul 28, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Of course it is about performance
I'm saying it would be ridiculous to say that Cain was pitching so poorly he needed to be moved to the bullpen while Zito was not. Basically coming out and saying that how much money you make is more important than how well you pitch - although that will be pretty clear next Opening Day when Zito takes the hill.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 28, 2007 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Of course it is about performance
I think the comment about Matt was that the Giants feel he could become a dominant closer.  Many think the value of a closer is similar to that of a second  or third starter, so in that sense being the closer wouldn't be a demotion for Matt.

Also, did you know that Barry's 1.55 WHIP since the beginning of May is actually 0.10 BETTER than Matt's 1.65 over that period?

by sharksrog on Jul 28, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
No.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 28, 2007 11:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I'm trying to think of a way to put it in one or fewer letters, but you might have just wrapped ths discussion up in the shortest possible way.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 28, 2007 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Why does everybody think that a guy with horrible first innings (Zito) should be moved to the pen?

by cheno on Jul 28, 2007 11:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Zito shouldn't, and neither should Cain. I'm sure that whatever the hell Zito is going through mentally is going to get resolved and he'll start pitching like he should.

Besides, if your starter pitches like that in the first inning, at least you have eight innings to correct the mistake(s), rather than having him blow it in the eighth or ninth. That reliever better a) throw strikes and b) limit baserunners.

by Van Smack on Jul 28, 2007 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't...
realize an 83 mph fastball which he cannot command is a mental problem.  I thought of it more as a suck problem.
Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Jul 28, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Barry actually has a great career ERA the first time through the lineup -- although that hasn't been the case this season.

by sharksrog on Jul 28, 2007 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
they just want him out of the rotation. Maybe you can make him angry by moving him to the bullpen and he'd be willing to scrap his no trade clause.
Randy Messenger: "Who's that fat ugly guy in the Marlin's bullpen that's sitting in my seat??"

by rxmeister on Jul 28, 2007 11:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
no. what about our $127M LOOGY?
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 28, 2007 11:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
ha, doesn't Zito have a reverse platoon split anyway?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 28, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I'd say the SYB is more of a POOGY at this point. Pitcher One Out GuY.
Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. Can't wait for Zito to start Opening Day '08 so I can get a leg up on my drinking.

by Punch Rockgroin on Jul 28, 2007 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
This is as stupid an idea as trusting Armando Benitez with a 9th inning lead.

He's 22. Linc's a freak/robot/alien-cyborg. Stop looking at him as a reference. Cain will figure it out. Give it time. A temporary move to fix mechanics? Fine. But anything else and >:(. With arms folded, so you know we mean business.

Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. Can't wait for Zito to start Opening Day '08 so I can get a leg up on my drinking.

by Punch Rockgroin on Jul 28, 2007 11:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
He's Big. He's Large. In fact, he's Huge.

And his arms are folded.

Ignore him at your peril.

by Moggeee on Jul 28, 2007 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Sabaen; Wet Brain
I love the originality of thought here on Sabaen's part. Yes. He's definitely put together a winning plan to earn himself a 2 year extension. His awesome decision making when it comes to big deals concerning pitchers in the last couple of years.

Joe Nathan...Gone
Francisco Liriano...Gone
Boof Bonzer...Gone

all three traded for a mediocre dp machine (caps intentionally left out along with deliberate insertion of incorrect closing parenthesis( in his walk year.

Nen.......Gone  Injured, but paid in full while Sabaen and Magowan self-fellated themselves with "temporary" closers like Herges, Walker, Brower, and Lou Seal waiting for Nen to heal. Eventually replaced by Mando with a three year gazillion Nen-like contract. They again proceeded to sit around and suck their thumbs for another couple of years waiting for Crisco-Lardo to heal. At last Sabaen's patience, was rewarded when the Jenny Craig Drop-out pitched a walk-off balk. (even though it was the T9th, not even Jesus comes back from something like that)

Accardo....Gone  Traded for Chulk and Sinking ship architect and part-time Michigan Militia lookalike Shea Hindenburg.

Schmidt...Gone (done for year)and ineffective for the last 2 years of his multi-million multi-year contract. Replace with Zit-75 and give him the contract from Hell. The problem with Schmidt was that he spent too much time on the DL. The problem with Zito is that he doesn't.

But at least you have to admire the way he spreads financial resources around the pitching staff, when the three highest paid players this season are:

Matt Morris  $10,037,000.00
Zit-75           $10,000,000.00
Steve Kline   $ 1,750,000.00

Obviously Sabaen knows exactly what he is doing. It takes talent to spend $90 million on a last place club and finish 12 games under .500 3 years in a row. He came within a half game of the cellar last year, but it appears with a 7 game bulge over the Rockies, the Giants are pretty much a mortal lock for NL West Losers of the Year award this season. As the great (or greatest ever) POTUS declard some years ago: "Mission Accomplished)

Maybe he'll make Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum both closers on alternating weeks, and move Lowry to the set-up role when he isn't playing right field and pinch hitting.  Don't stop there. Get real innovative and hire Big Pappy Lincecum to pitch the 7th inning and spot start. Hey the guy threw 85 when he was 50...thats as good as Morris, and no doubt he'll be cheaper.

Next week, expect Sabaen to announce that he has a surefire deal in the works with the Red Sox to trade them Dave Roberts straight-up for Dice K, if the Sox pick up half of K's salary; and with the Yankees for A-rod and Jeter in exchange for Matt Morris and Omar Vizquel.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Jul 28, 2007 12:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I'm not for the idea but I think folks are misreading it. They aren't talking about moving him just to get him into the bullpen but seeing if he could be a Papelbon. An absolutely lights out closer who occasionally goes more than an inning would be a tremendous asset. If that worked out, you'd have Mess and Hennessy as a set up team and a bullpen as good as any in baseball. I'm against the move because I think it's a pipedream but I can't slam them for at least thinking about it.

by NearestNorwich on Jul 28, 2007 1:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
What good does the best setup and bullpen do you when you're more than 3 runs down after a first inning and don't have a chance of scoring more than 2-3 runs on the best of nights?
Omar Vizquel to Big Sam, "Barton, Viduka, Rozenhal, Geremi, Deco even?...way to go Gaffer, keep up the great work!"

by PacBellBoozer on Jul 28, 2007 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're reading it fine thanks
The value Cain provides as a starter is lightyears ahead of what he'd do in the bullpen.

by awesomer on Jul 28, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
No closer has the same assetness as a starter.

Jonathan Papelbon is 500% less valuable to the Red Sox since he decided he didn't want to start.

That's not all opinion, either, though I know I'm not citing accurate numbers. There have been studies to find mathematical equivalents for the values of these things (and some about the value of the existence of the "closer" itself), and the Starter will always be more useful, assuming a certain level of production (which, it is more than reasonable to assume, Cain does and will provide).

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 28, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I have read in different areas that a top closer is equivalent to ONLY a #3 type starter. I will try to look for the links if possible. Cain in my honest opinion (remember he is still younger than lincecum) can be a #1 type ace pitcher. He has far more valuable as a starter to the Giants than as a closer.
Sabean stop giving away our first round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Jul 28, 2007 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Just a thought here.  Maybe if the Giants used Matt for an inning at a time he could get back in the groove -- and then they could return him to the rotation.  Of course with his control struggles, it might be better to leave him in a situation in which if he gets a bout of wildness, he has more time to work it out.

Personally I have Matt ranked right now as a #1 3/4 starter.  I see a better chance that he can be of #1 caliber than of his dropping to #3 or lower, but I see his most likely resting spot perhaps as being a good #2.

by sharksrog on Jul 28, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I am pretty sure this is all made up.

by satyricrash on Jul 28, 2007 4:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Dream within a Dream within a Brazil Nut
Satyr crashes the party with a personal conviction on the existential nature of life.

by Moggeee on Jul 28, 2007 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
I agree. I don't see anything in that article to make me think that Matt Cain is becoming a closer any time soon. I think they just write stuff like that to sell newspapers and irritate Giant fans.
Randy Messenger: "Who's that fat ugly guy in the Marlin's bullpen that's sitting in my seat??"

by rxmeister on Jul 28, 2007 5:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I am amused, not irritated
I've been reading Henry Schulman for years and think he's damn solid. And he's allowed to report the floating rumors -- as long as he identifies them as such -- because that's part of the beat writer job definition during a 162-game dragfest.

Man, baseball would be deadly dull without a few unsubstantiated red, white or green herrings.

by Moggeee on Jul 28, 2007 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course he is solid, he is from LA
Agree that Hank is solid. Also I have emailed him a few times in the past and he will take the time out to reply to your questions.

by wilriv21 on Jul 28, 2007 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought I was special
He writes back to you, too??

That dirty, rotten, two-timing, rumor-mongering hack!!

by Moggeee on Jul 28, 2007 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Just because I think he's off on the Cain to the bullpen thing doesn't mean I don't like Schulman. He's probably the best beat writer covering the Giants. Another reason to like the Giants' beat reporters is that Armando Benitez refused to talk to them yesterday.
Randy Messenger: "Who's that fat ugly guy in the Marlin's bullpen that's sitting in my seat??"

by rxmeister on Jul 29, 2007 7:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Actually, Andrew Baggarly may well be the Giants best beat writer, but Henry likely didn't just pop the idea of Matt Cain's becoming a closer off the top of his head.  Chances are it has at least been discussed internally.

People so often seem to think that others would make the same mistake we might make, but in fact others -- especially professionals -- do things better than we do.

by sharksrog on Jul 29, 2007 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
no way do you do that with Cainer!  Hoffman is the best choice!!  The Bochy tie to Trevor Hoffman is what i like.  He also makes he bully better by taking everyone down a notch.  Henn to the 8th, Messenger to the 7th.  Almost as good as the ole 7-F-Rod, 8-Worrell, 9-Nenner. Now we just need eric byrnes and we are set!

by Big Daddy J on Jul 30, 2007 2:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cain to bullpen?
Yeah.  Hoffman and Byrnes.  That ought to pretty much do it, all right.  :)

by sharksrog on Jul 30, 2007 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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