Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the Giants

by giants92388 on Jun 8, 2007 10:07 AM PDT Comment 34 comments

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6896758

In full support of Sabes

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Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

Rosenthal is right that Magowan isn't free from blame in all this, but plenty of GMs have done better with less. We can't fire Magowan so we need to replace Sabean with a GM that can better succeed despite him.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 8, 2007 10:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

I totally disagree. Magowan can and should be fired. He is a minority shareholder. There are 6 partners on the executive committee who have authority over Magowan.

The reality is that with the deaths of some of the founding partners, he has consolidated his power base with new handpicked partners.

Your basic Trust-fund-baby, chain of wealth and power.

See how futile all of this is? See how fucked up we are to even give a shit.

Its always about the money. Always.

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Jun 9, 2007 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

oh by the way for you oversensitive front office sycophants. I'm just jerking your chains. So you can remove the ice picks from your ear drums

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Jun 9, 2007 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

I am generally a Sabean defender (or at least a milder critic), but the whole "Sabean's hands are tied because of Bonds's salary and/or Magowan's wallet" nonsense has to stop. We've averaged about $80M in non-Barry salary over the past two years. That ain't the Yankees or the Red Sox, but it ain't the poorhouse either.

Meanwhile, as has been the case for a long time, you can add up just a few bad contracts and surpass Barry's salary. He brought home $13M last year (with $5M deferred); Steve Finley (acquired to try and minimize the damage from the Edgardo Alfonzo deal) and Armando Benitez made $13.6M. Barry will take home about $15M in base salary and old deferrals this year, while we're paying $15.5M to five players who aren't even here anymore: Finley, Benitez, Mike Matheny, Tim Worrell and Moises Alou.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 8, 2007 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

I don't disagree with your general premise about the bad non-Bonds contracts that we're on the hook for this season, but two of your examples are misleading. Steve Finley for Edgardo Alfonzo was a straight-up swapping of two (approximately) $7 million/year contracts. Finley sucked, but at least we got some triples out of him instead of just DFA'ing Fonzie. I don't believe we're paying Steve Finley anything this season. As for Mike Matheny, you could argue whether he was a good pickup, but who among us foresaw the concussion injury? It's just a bad-luck signing a la the last two years of Robb Nen's contract.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jun 8, 2007 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Yes, the bad contract was essentially Alfonzo's, not Finley's, although wasted money is wasted money. Finley had a $1M buyout, and hit .246/.320/.394 for us; we could have just released Alfonzo and saved a million dollars.

But, yeah, Matheny is probably an unfair choice, even though I never liked the signing.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 8, 2007 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

I had forgotten about Finley's $1M buyout, although that's probably just the price of admitting they messed up by giving Alfonzo that contract.

What's that saying? "A few million here, a few million there, pretty soon you're talking about real money." ;)

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jun 8, 2007 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

I love how "signing the best hitter in baseball to sub market* prices for 14 years" = hamstrung.

* based on what you would have to pay for equivalent production. Which is impossible, since he was better than anyone has been, ever.

by zenbitz on Jun 8, 2007 11:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

The problem hasn't been Bonds... it's been the players Sabean has chosen to surround Bonds and the preference given to quantity of (usually mediocre) players over quality and, up until recently, the refusal to fill the bench and bullpen spots with young minimum-salary players. (The best example of this is Sabean's reason for not signing Vlad.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 8, 2007 12:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

That is completely unfair to say that Sabean didnt want to sign Vlad. For one the owners were not willing to spend the money, and 2 he said he would not of signed with the Giants even if we offered him more than the Angels.

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 8, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

This statement by him would seem to indicate otherwise:

shaundarbie: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?

Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and Tucker -- obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040130&content_id=632454&vkey=news_sf&fext=.js p&c_id=sf

IMO, almost all of those players except for maybe Pierzysnki and Eyre are ones that could have been pretty easily replaced.

And could you link to where Guerrero said that? I've never heard that.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 8, 2007 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's be honest about Guerrero

The Dodgers had him sealed and delivered until the new ownership overturned the decision. The Angels then swooped in to save the day. The Giants were not going to spend all that money on two players (Bonds being the other). Guerrero had health concerns that were too risky for SF to sign to a long term deal. Angels have been the recipients of his good health, though he ocassionally DHs to relieve the back pain.

by wilriv21 on Jun 8, 2007 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

Perhaps, but saying that they didn't even bother pursuing Guerrero because if they did, they wouldn't have been able to have all that mediocrity on the roster really rings false to me. Not to mention, Guerrero didn't end up signing for that much money (especially if you look at his deal today.) 5 years at 70 million? That was a fair deal at the time and is a bargain now.

Vlad made $10 million (plus 1 mil in bonuses) his first year as an Angel. All those apparently irreplaceable players Sabean mentioned up there made more than that combined... they could have signed Vlad, kept maybe half of those guys around and replaced the rest with guys who made around the league minimum. However, in 2004, Sabean was unwilling to do so, which IMO, is a mistake that we continue to pay for.

Now, maybe Vlad wouldn't have signed with us, but I disagree with Sabean's philosophy and the apparent reason why he didn't even make an effort. It's fine if you disagree with me, but this is the problem I have with Sabean. He has, however, begun to do a much better job of filling the 'pen and bench with league-minimum players (though I would say he hasn't done a great job spending the money saved by using those guys.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 8, 2007 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

Well, I think Sabean, being the PC GM that he is, avoided pointing any fingers. He does this all the time, and he'll continue doing it even if he is fired by Magowan.

As with some (not most) of what Sabean says, you can sort of read past it. Perhaps it was his way of saying that management wouldn't spend that kind of money on one player. Management wouldn't want to pay for Bonds, Vlad, AND all of the supporting cast that needs to be there.

I strongly believe that Magowan and all of the Giants' brass know they made a mistake then. They've seen first hand that salary inflation makes signing a player to an "apparent" big deal one year can turn out to be a bargain one or three years down the line. This is why I wouldn't be surprised of a re-signing of Bonds even if they are able to reel in ARod this coming offseason. The prospect of having those two in a lineup is almost worth that extra $15M.

If they could do it all over again, I'm sure they would have thrown 5 years @ $80M at Vlad without any second thought. They will NEVER admit this, as they shouldn't. You just know they would do it if the opportunity were to re-present itself.

by sfgfan on Jun 8, 2007 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

They might still do it when Vlad's current deal ends. ;)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 8, 2007 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

Now THAT could be something worth fearing. I guess it'll depend on how he finishes this year and plays next. Doesn't he have an option year too? Yikes.

by sfgfan on Jun 8, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

Funny, if Sabean had said "we were concerned about his health" I could have lived with that. Steinbrenner never even looked in Vlad's direction, presumably for that reason. But the "we couldn't have Hammonds and Herges" stuff... yikes.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 8, 2007 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

Sabean is here to stay, whether people like it or not, and Bonds probably is as well.

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 8, 2007 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Let's be honest about Guerrero

That is not true until his extension is signed. As of right now he is on borrowed time.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Jun 8, 2007 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

If the Giants had signed Gregg Zaun to platoon with Yorvit Torrealba, they would have had a very nice platoon at a low cost. Embry would have been tougher to replace, although perhaps Joe Nathan would have been capable.

Brian has long had more money to spend than Billy Beane, plus he has had the advantage of having the best player it the game for most of the past decade. Yet he hasn't had more success than Billy and now has a farm system that looks like a small family farm compared to Billy's clean corporate farm.

And if Brian didn't have enough money to spend for a top-notch free agent, he had only himself to blame.

Brian was GREAT through the end of the 2002 season. But since then he has been questionable at best.

by sharksrog on Jun 8, 2007 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

Woohoo...A guy who gets it !

Well Done.

Omar Vizquel wants Shepard out. NUFC would be better for it!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 8, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

I thought Rosenthal's article was very well written, but I don't think he gets it -- for many reason I have given in the post above and elsewhere here at the Willie Mac Green Sheet.

by sharksrog on Jun 8, 2007 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal on the state of the

He was replying to me.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 9, 2007 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Sabean tried to spend $10 million per year on Juan Pierre. That alone is worth a pink slip.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Jun 8, 2007 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

That was only for three. At least Pierre plays everyday, and he does have 17 bags.

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 8, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Actually, I'm pretty sure we offered him a 5 year deal. And Pierre may play everyday... but do you really want him to? Every part of his game except for stealing bases (and he's not even particularly outstanding at that, considering his speed) is terrible.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 8, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Pierre plays everyday, and sucks everyday. And for superstar money.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Jun 8, 2007 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

17 bags? Is that referring to steals, or time on base?

rimshot

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jun 8, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Up top!

by KCE on Jun 8, 2007 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

On the bright side, he at least knew when to fold. Too bad Colletti can't say the same.

by sfgfan on Jun 8, 2007 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

When to fold was the very beginning: Juan Pierre is a replacement-level player, he's barely worth a major-league contract.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 8, 2007 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Well, yeah I totally agree with that. In the spirit of being lucky that we're not Dodger fans: this is just another reason why.

by sfgfan on Jun 8, 2007 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

Yep. I loves me some Ned Coletti.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 8, 2007 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good article by Rosenthal

True. While I didn't like the signing of Dave Roberts, I preferred it to that of Juan Pierre. My first choice would have been Gary Matthews though.

When Davey returns, the Giants will once again have a great hitter and two center fielders, which is actually what they also have with Freddie Lewis replacing Davey.

I think any student of baseball realizes one can reasonably closely predict a team's runs scored by its OPS. He also realizes that OBP is the more important part of OPS. Yet aside from Bonds, the Giants don't have anyone more than fleetingly acquainted with a walk.

For that matter, aside from Barry, the Giants also have no power. Aside from Barry, they have no offense -- as they proved when he missed the 2005 season and the Giants fell from 850 runs in 2004 to just 649.

Brian was a little slow coming to realize the importance of OBP. But, finally, he said he wanted more after that frustrating 2005 season. So he went right out and signed Jose Vizcaino and his .318 career OBP. Jose had an OBP of .304 before he was released by the Giants. At least that was higher than his .261 SLG with the team. Ironically, Jose became the FOURTH 2006 Giant who had an OBP BELOW .300 in 2005. Jose almost made it at .299, but as I recall, Pedro Feliz, Lance Niekro and Mike Matheny each posted only a .295 mark.

Well, so much for getting high-OBP guys. :)

No OBP guys. No SLG guys. No minor leaguers. No clue?

by sharksrog on Jun 8, 2007 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs