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Dealing Veterans

by ben p on Jun 20, 2007 12:24 PM PDT Comment 39 comments

I've been hoping that the Giants will sell, sell, sell before the break, but this article makes me wonder whether it would be better to just wait it out and load up on draft picks. Deadline deals or drafting? What's your preferred rebuilding method?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Dealing Veterans

The problem is that some of our veterans might well accept arbitration if we offered it to them in the off-season, then we'd be stuck with Happy Pete another year.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 20, 2007 12:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Also, a number of these guys are second-tier guys who wouldn't get us a high comp pick or guys who aren't in the last year of their contract yet.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 20, 2007 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

These ones too.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 20, 2007 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I would think that ALL of them are second tier guys. Just check out the team's record.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!! The 2007 SF Giants: Doing their part to keep the Yankees out of the playoffs

by rxmeister on Jun 20, 2007 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I think the problem with our situation is that the veterans we could conceivably get draft picks for either (a) might not sign with anyone after the season (Bonds, Vizquel) or (b) might not be classified as Type A or even Type B free agents.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 20, 2007 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Easy. Pick a veteran, shop that veteran. If we can get something for them that exceeds the value of a draft pick, then we sell. If not, we hang on to the player. Repeat as needed.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Jun 20, 2007 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I don't think that article makes a convincing case that compensation draft picks are clearly better; it looks more like, on average, it's a wash.

Even if they got a bunch of picks next year and used them wisely, most of those players aren't going to be major league contributors until Cain and Lowry are testing the free agency waters...

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 1.99 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jun 20, 2007 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

If we keep all of our veterans who are due to be free agents (Feliz, Klesko, Vizquel, Bonds, Sweeney, Ortiz), I would expect us to offer arbitration to none of these players, or maybe one: Feliz. We could get lucky and have someone sign one of these players before the deadline (as happened with Alou... I don't think we were going to offer him arbitration either), but I'm not counting on it. The article concerned Ichiro-like stars (and certainly applied to Schmidt last year), but unfortunately, it's not particularly relevant to our current situation. I'm sticking by my prediction for the number of compensation picks we'll receive this winter: zero.

So I welcome the shopping of these players, even if I'm not overly optimistic as to what they might bring in. Michael Barrett for a backup catcher and a Sickels C+ prospect is a wakeup call, and Barrett has a better chance of leading to compensation picks this winter than any of our players do.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I don't know how much weight the Barrett trade should carry... that trade was clearly a bit of a panic dump for the attitude and chemistry issues.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 20, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

This is true. Still, it reflects the buyer's market of the past three seasons.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Oh yeah, I do agree that we probably (unless we get really lucky) won't be able to acquire building block type players for what we have to give.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 20, 2007 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Morris can definitely get some players of good value

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 20, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I agree with you there, and just correct you on one point. Russ Ortiz will not be a free agent. He has another year left on his dbacks contract.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!! The 2007 SF Giants: Doing their part to keep the Yankees out of the playoffs

by rxmeister on Jun 20, 2007 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Oh, the D-Backs will be paying him next year, but I still think he'll be a free agent since he only signed a one-year deal with the Giants. He gets to choose where he'd like the Diamondbacks to pay him to pitch next year.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I absolutely agree that the free agents the Giants have this year will not net the Giants many, if any, compensatory draft picks. Remember, this year the percentage a player has to be in to be a Type B will be reduced by 10%, so that thins the pot even more. Right now, the best chance is Vizquel, and maybe Feliz. And those two are definitely retirement/accepting arbitration risks.

But on the other hand, it goes beyond this season: the veterans people most want to trade are future free agents, most notably Matt Morris. And while it's far too early to make a real prognostication on what Morris will rank, he's a possible Type A. Meanwhile, guys like Molina and Roberts aren't even in the two year window for free agency.

And, of course, there's the salient point that trading veterans is never as easy as people on message boards make it sound. There have been very very very very very very very few trades at the deadline in the past couple of years except for big-name superstars on the verge of free agency. No one the Giants have meet that criteria.

Sorry, folks, next year's draft is going to be weak unless the Giants get to keep their first round pick. I've been saying it since May, and nothing's changed. They will not pick up a lot (if any) extra picks, and are in a spot where they'll have to sign the free agents that will cost them picks if they want to compete or rebuild at all.

And, sorry folks, but this year the team is not likely to get any blockbuster young players. Morris is the only chance they have to get some, and there's a legitimate argument that he could be more helpful to rebuilding than hurting, especially showing younger pitchers how to pitch with less stuff (especially with a declining fastball and a good curve....Zito, you listening?). If anything, any deals the Giants can do will probably be more like the Michael Tucker/Jason Christiansen deals of 2005.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 20, 2007 12:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

FWIW, next year's draft sounds like a good one for college hitters at least at the top of the draft. The Giants might have picked a good year to be the sultans of suck.

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Jun 20, 2007 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

*jumps on the Pedro Alvarez bandwagon*

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 20, 2007 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

how bout the 1B from Arkansas State?

loved watching that kid during the super regionals.

In Soviet Russia, save blows Benitez!

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 20, 2007 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

And, of course, there's the salient point that trading veterans is never as easy as people on message boards make it sound.

I see what you're saying, but in the past three years Ryan Church, Luke Scott, Mark Teahen, John Buck, Scott Kazmir, Jon Rauch, Jose Bautista, Matt Murton, Justin Germano, Joe Kennedy, Jeremy Freaking Accardo, and my new favorite target, Asdrubal Cabrera have all been dealt. Other than Kazmir and maybe Teahen, those aren't a bunch of world-beaters, but they would help a rebuilding Giants team more than Klesko, Vizquel, Feliz, etc....

That list doesn't include non-deadline deals that netted teams Andy Marte, Andre Ethier, Chris Youngs, Adrian Gonzalez, Cla Meredith and John Maine. Teams were willing to give those players up, they just didn't do so at the deadline.

Those lists also don't include prospects who have been disappointing but are still young, like Joel Guzman and George Kottaras

And, of course, you can always dream some fool pulls a Derek Lowe/Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb deal. They're rare, but, wooooooo, man, it would be sweet if the Giants could pull an Andersen/Bagwell deal of their own.

If anything, any deals the Giants can do will probably be more like the Michael Tucker/Jason Christiansen deals of 2005.

I can see that. But it isn't a reason to not try. Trading bags of kitty litter for raffle tickets is almost never going to get you rich, but it improves whatever chances you have in the first place.

by Grant on Jun 20, 2007 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Bannister to KC, too, I think. He's quietly become pretty damn respectable.

Rick Leach: Drugs not hugs!

by dangjackson on Jun 20, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I'm an idiot, Bannister was winter meetings. I should leave this to the pros.

Rick Leach: Drugs not hugs!

by dangjackson on Jun 20, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kitty litter for raffle tickets

Well put.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those lumps in the litter are prizes!

As they say in NY, you can't win if you don't play. Every year the Giants have successfully trolled for a decent pitcher from a mound of non-roster invites, and I think this is a similar situation. I don't think he'll win a Cy Young anytime soon, but Messenger is pitching 500% better than Boonitez did, and he might improve. I suppose it's more expensive than spring invites, but I think finishing 4th with Klesko, Aurilia, Morris, etc. is no worse than finishing 5th with Niekro, Figueroa, and Threets. Maybe some of those guys will come through in a half-season, or at least look good enough that someone else will want to sift through them looking for "prizes" too.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Jun 20, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

We should definitely trade Morris if we can. We have a pitching coach to teach pitchers how to pitch

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 20, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Ha ha - good one. I love sarcasm.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Jun 20, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

yes, let's trade our best pitcher this year. good call. do me a favor. don't ever write anything ever again.

Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard.

by Cynema the Band on Jun 20, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Silencing ol' SabSup won't end the calls for a Morris trade, as he is the only veteran with even an outside shot of bringing in an impact prospect at the deadline. It's the seller's dilemna: if we wouldn't miss him, no one else would want him.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Ah, but you're forgetting about the Hillenbrand Principle, which proves there are exceptions to that dilemma.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.48 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jun 20, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

grrrrrrrrrrr...

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 20, 2007 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I've never agreed with anything SabeanSupporter has ever written. Until now.

I don't understand the argument that we can't trade Morris because he's our best pitcher THIS YEAR. As Sabean said about Matt Williams 10 years ago, "We finished last with him, I think we can do it without him." No matter how well Morris pitches tis year or next, the Giants will NOT contend. After that, he's a free agent. If they can't help the team post-2008 and can fetch anything at all of value in return, they should be traded.

by English Professor on Jun 20, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I have to agree. I think Morris probably makes the most sense among our trade-away options.

by Dan from NM on Jun 20, 2007 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Thats exactly why we should trade him, he has value. If you dont want to trade him stop complainging about how we dont have any good prospects in the minors, becuase this would be a great way to remedy that.

by SabeanSupporter on Jun 20, 2007 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

I don't think his value is as high as some people think. If he were a free agent after this year that would be one thing, but anyone looking to acquire him is going to tell the Giants that they're relieving them of a big salary and they shouldn't expect much talent in return.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!! The 2007 SF Giants: Doing their part to keep the Yankees out of the playoffs

by rxmeister on Jun 20, 2007 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

The Giants are in a good position to eat some of the salary, particularly the remainder of what he's due this season.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jun 21, 2007 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

If the Giants have to pay the lion's share of his remaining salary and don't get much in return for him, I'd prefer they just keep him.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 21, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

Given the way pitchers' salaries have inflated over the last year, I thought Morris at $9 million/year is something we all agreed is now pretty much a bargain.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 21, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

i would like to see a combo of the two. a good team always has a mixture of veterans with good young talent. the problem the giants have in their farm system is they have a ton of pitching, but no hitting. that has been the philosophy of sabes. the pitching looks good but as we have seen with linden, lewis, ortmeir, notgardo, etc. the pool of good hitting in the minors is slim to none, closer to none. so if we traded our higher salaries for draft picks, what kind of picks would we get? which completes the circle back to the philosophy of how sabes has drafted, assuming he is still around after this year. this organization needs a direction, and so far they have displayed none.

Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard.

by Cynema the Band on Jun 20, 2007 1:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

A good team has alot of players in their prime, not a half the players on their last legs and the rest still learning the ropes.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jun 20, 2007 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Dealing Veterans

mlbtraderumors.com

Healey says the Mets sent scouts to look at Randy Winn this weekend. They must not be pleased with Moises Alou's progress. As I mentioned earlier, Winn is signed through 2009. He has a full no-trade clause this year. For 2008-09 he can block deals to ten teams.

Jack Mustachner

by The Thrill on Jun 20, 2007 9:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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