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Around SBN: Notre Dame's Turnaround: How Have The Irish Done It?

Phpppt

by Grant Brisbee on Jun 19, 2007 1:14 PM PDT in News

It begins.

The first (that I've seen) mainstream "Giants need to blow this thing up" article. KNBR is aflame with folks pining for the days of Steve Scarsone, J.R. Phillips, and John Patterson. They don't really know that's what they're pining for - a lot of the callers are of the "Why don't the Giants trade Fred Lewis and Merkin Valdez for Dontrelle Willis?"-variety - but that's what we'd get: a whole lot of slop-siftin' in the hopes of finding a single Bill Mueller. It'd be ugly.

Even uglier: Staying the course. And everyone knows it. So I'd like to take this moment to thank Ray Durham, Omar Vizquel, Dave Roberts, and Pedro Feliz for not having a scorching hot first-half before playing to the levels at which they are currently playing. If all four of those players had a hot first-half, we'd still believe. Then we'd have our hearts ripped out again in August or September. I still think there's some good baseball left in a couple of those players, so they picked a fine time to slump. Closure is a good thing, especially in June.

It's time to start picking over the bones of the roster. Hands up if you think this team can put up a sustained streak that would vault them within four games of the division lead. There's one guy in the back, but it looks like he just has to go to the bathroom. We've all looked like that for a couple of months now. This diary asked a lot of the questions that will keep coming up for the next month. Who are we going to trade? What kind of return should we get? What teams will be interested? Who will be the Mark Lewis that blocks the one good major leaguer the team finds?

The first thing that has to be pointed out, though, is that Barry Bonds will not be traded. Zero-percent chance if he hasn't broken the home run record, .000001% chance if he has by the trading deadline. Maybe a team would take the public relations hit after 755 - flags fly forever, and all that - but can you imagine Bonds hitting 755 in an Angels uniform? Neither can the Angels.

With that out of the way: Open Fire Sale Thread. Comment starter: Do you think Randy Winn would waive his no-trade clause to go to a contender?

Tweet Comment 53 comments | 0 recs |

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Comments

Re: Phpppt

yes i think he would. anybody who is a true competitor would welcome a trade to a contender after this stretch the giants have had.

I nominate Common Sense as the new GM of the San Francisco Giants.

by fanofvanlandingham on Jun 19, 2007 1:17 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

If he did ... what could we get for him? How valuable a commodity is Randy Winn?

I adopted Barry Bonds

by BondsApologist on Jun 19, 2007 1:19 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Randy Winn is definitely tradeable. Not that the fans make trade, but some members of Red Sox Nation who were calling into their sports radio station yesterday seemed pretty impressed with Winn from this past weekend and wondered whether he could be acquired for some sort of Coco Crisp-Wily Mo Pena combo (ugh. no thanks.) Do the Sox have anyone in their minor league system we could use (I'm too lazy to look it up.)

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jun 19, 2007 1:20 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'd trade Winn for Wily Mo straight up right now. I mean, odds are Winn will be the better player for the next couple years, but Wily Mo has the potential to be a much, much better hitter if he ever puts it together. Plus, he's still pre-arb if I am correct.

And yes, I am aware the Wily's D leaves something to be desired.

My VORP is higher than Merkin's VORP.

by Poe on Jun 19, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

The Giants trading for Wily Mo and then letting him play everyday in RF for the rest of the season would be something to add to the list of "Things Worth Watching on the SF Giants." I (and many others, I'm sure) have always wondered what kind of stuff he could do if he was given a consistent PT. And hey, maybe given enough time, he could be the one to finally hit the glove behind the bleachers. :)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 19, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Willy Mo seems like the second coming of Glenallen Hill.

by beaunose on Jun 19, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

i think willy mo IS glenallen hill

Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard.

by Cynema the Band on Jun 19, 2007 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Impressed with Winn, eh? I guess it must have been his "throw" from short LF that sailed over Molina's head to allow a runner to plate who couldn't have been more than a couple of steps from 3rd when Winn released it.

by BigO on Jun 19, 2007 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'd like to know who Gammons likes in the Red Sox system. It's certainly fair to accuse him of throwing lots of stuff against the wall to see what sticks, but he singled out Lester and Papelbon way back in 2003... and I thank him because I went and bought their rookie cards.

by achiappanza on Jun 20, 2007 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Hi, Ken Williams? Yes, this is Brian Sabean. I'd like to know what you're willing to give up for Randy Winn and Omar Vizquel. Stefan Gartrell? Yes, please.

(Full disclosure: I played with and against Gartrell from ages 12-18, and never imagined he'd perform as well as he has in the Sally League. In fact, if he makes the majors, I'll be telling everyone I know the story about how I started at 1B over him for an entire summer on our Bronco league all star team, and the time when I was 14 and he literally ran through a right field fence in Foster City while I was pitching.)

David Arnott
Sportszilla -- Kickass Sports Writing
Adopted EME

by David A. Arnott on Jun 19, 2007 1:25 PM PDT reply actions

Yup!

Gartrell is somebody I was following before last season's draft and kind of hoping the Giants would take him somewhere. He got off to a a slow start in the pros, so I figured I had misjudged him. Looked him up this morning and much to my surprise, he's really turned it on in the SAL. SAL is a relative pitcher's league, but he's awfully old for low A ball so he's not a sure thing, but a very interesting player. If we could get him and dump Winn's contract at the same time, it would be a good deal as far as I'm concerned. Move him to San Jose, a higher level, but a hitter's league. See what happens.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jun 19, 2007 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

It's (almost) never impossible to convince someone to waive his no-trade clause. I'm sure that if Sabean was able to find a good deal for Winn, he'd find some way to convince Randy that it'd be the best option for him.

He does make a lot of money over the next two years, but if he keeps hitting like he has, he'll be a useful CFer for the length of the contract. The Red Sox could use an upgrade in CF, though with Jacoby Ellsbury on his way up, I don't think they'd want to acquire someone with Winn's contract status. The Tigers could probably use someone who's not a complete offensive black-hole in LF (and maybe 1B... Klesko?) Of course, the Tigers can live with their current LF and 1B situations (it's the bullpen that's costing them games.) The Mets could use another body for the outfield, but would they really want to invest in someone for the next 2.5 years when they've got so many talented OFs in their system?

I'm kind of rambling, but the thing that sticks out to me as far as Winn goes is that a lot of teams looking for a short-term upgrade might not want to take on the long-term ramifications of Winn's contract (even if it's not that bad of a deal) just because of future players they have coming up through their system. That said, I think Winn could definitely be a valuable addition to a contender and we could convince him to waive the NTC if we found a deal it was worth doing so for.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 19, 2007 1:32 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Here's how I see it.

Veteran players having enough trade value that the Giants could turn into major league prospects/players:

Roberts, Durham, Vizquel, Winn, Feliz, Molina, Lowry, Morris, Kline. Maybe Chulk. I suppose I could include Messenger in this group.

Veteran players having very little trade value:

Aurilia (DL), Klesko, Sweeney, Ortiz (DL). Alfonzo (DL).

Not tradeable/off limits:

Bonds, Zito, Cain, Lincecum.

I've only included players in the first category that should be on the block. Obviously, the team would be able to get something for Correia, Hennessey, Sanchez, Taschner, not to mention current minor leaguers Brian Wilson, Sadler, Misch and Blackley, but none of those guys have reached their full potential as major leaguers and it doesn't seem worth it to trade them now, especially if we're dumping vets.

Lewis, Frandsen, Ortmeier and Schierholtz fall within that group as well, though they could be included in some sort of package depending on the deal.

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 19, 2007 1:42 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'd say Klesko has as much or more trade value than Feliz, and perhaps Vizquel. He has been the second best hitter on the Giants this year, has a great OBP and is slugging close to .500

My VORP is higher than Merkin's VORP.

by Poe on Jun 19, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Yeah, I think a contender with poor 1B production (Detroit!) or a weak bench would love to acquire Klesko.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 19, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I still say the team now platooning Miguel Cairo and Andy Phillips would be interested.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Jun 19, 2007 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

he's also quite injury prone and getting older, but I see your point.

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 19, 2007 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Yeah, you overlook things like age and injury risk when picking up a rental player. I agree with you about Sweeney, though, despite the belief around these parts that someone out there wants his veteran savvy and his magical pinch-hitting ability.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 19, 2007 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Thank you! And at $1 million, he's a bargain. As much as I'd hate to lose my son, he could bring us some value.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 19, 2007 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Not to hate on my boy, but if you look at Chulk this year and Kline this year, Chulk is more valuable. If you look at their ages and how long you'll control Chulk, he's significantly more valuable by a lot.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 19, 2007 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

one word: LOOGY

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 19, 2007 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I also think Winn would waive his NTC to go to a contender. And if we can find an OF, 1B, or 3B prospect for him I say do it. Winn is one of the more obvious decisions however. It is the other guys that are going to be hard to sell.

As much as I love the guy, I think Vizquel has some value. Some teams don't need hitters as much and they could use the best active defensive SS and his charisma. Not to mention that Vizquel is batting way below his career average and some GM's might be willing to take a chance on him. I wouldn't expect a great prospect in return, but any prospect will do, and we have some AAA guys that could take his roster spot.

Feliz is much like Vizquel, good defense, terrible bat. But when he does hit the ball it goes far so maybe we could find a suitor with a small ballpark and an already stacked lineup. Again, fetch ANY type of prospect for him, pay off his salary, and open up another roster spot for a AAA guy.

We should try to trade Sweeney, but if no one bites, then DFA him and clear up a roster spot.

A lot of people look down on our AAA system and its inability to produce position players, but we have several guys that are hot right now and I think some of them deserve a chance to develop at the big level. As if we had anything to lose either.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jun 19, 2007 1:45 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I like watching Omar too much to give him up for what little he'd get.

by achiappanza on Jun 20, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions

Winn for Sale

Think many clubs would be interested in a switch hitting leadoff CF. Getting him to waive his no-trade clause might only come after Winn talks with the little missus. They both seemed very giddy at the extension signing press conference.

Sabean should be dialing for prospects. Calling and gauging interest in a Ryan Klesko (Yankees), Omar Vizquel (Red Sox), Bonds (Angels, Yankees) Sweeney (contender needing LHH off bench), Winn (Mets, As, Indians, Tigers)

by wilriv21 on Jun 19, 2007 1:58 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'm down for an old fashioned firesale, but wanting to trade Barry Bonds for prospects is just silliness. His place in history (probably the greatest ever) and with this franchise is so much more valuable than any minor league player we could recieve in return. On top of that, he's the only reason people are still coming to the ballpark.

by mxmob33 on Jun 19, 2007 2:28 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Word. Barry pays for himself in ticket sales. My biggest gripe with the contract was that they could have had him for less.

by achiappanza on Jun 20, 2007 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'd like to keep Molina around. The young pitching stands to gain a lot from a veteran catcher.

Here's a thought that is begging to be shot down: If Tejada could brought in with out giving up any of the major pitching prospects, would you do it? Baltimore is going into fire sale mode, maybe something could be worked out.

All I'm saying here is that the Giants could field a competative team in 2008 while still building a team around younger players, and there doesn't seem to be any real options for shortstop. Sign Torii Hunter on top of that and Giants management have a couple players they can market. I'd pay to see those two in Giants uniforms. I'm totally discounting the notion that A-Rod will sign with the Giants.

With Frandsen at second, that leaves four other positions to fill with young talent. These seem like legatimate ideas, beside management isn't going to field a whole team of no-name AAA players, no matter what their prospects are. They need to market a team around at least two position players. They will have the money to spend in the off-season and will spend it, so why not Tejada and Hunter?

by RUSirius on Jun 19, 2007 2:31 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'm with you on keeping Molina. He's been a good value and we don't have anyone waiting in the wings.

I think Ichiro is more marketable than Hunter, especially in the Bay Area.

I've always liked Tejada and wouldn't mind seeing him in a Giants uni, but still like the idea of A-rod more.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 19, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I think we'd be a few years too late on Tejada... his defense is pretty poor now and he's turned into a bit of a singles hitter (only .415 SLG this year despite a .302 batting average.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 19, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Ichiro puts this team on the right track, i.e. "The Oakland A's, Except With Money."

A-Rod...so tempting...such a good fit here...but it just feels wrong. Like a continuation of the Freakshow we're putting on now.

Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Jun 20, 2007 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I think Winn would waive it, also. I like to think in terms of whom I want the Giants to keep of the position players. I would be fine with trying to keep the pitching staff largely together for the next few years, unless we received offers for a really big bat for less than Cain & Lincecum.

I would keep Molina as well. Maybe Roberts. Maybe Winn, but not both Roberts and Winn. That is about the extent of who I would keep.

by out machine on Jun 19, 2007 3:05 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Regarding Winn waiving his no-trade clause, I think it would come down to why he wanted it in the first place:

He loves the Bay Area - being a local guy might mean he really wants to stay in the area and would reduce the chances of him waiving it.
He wanted insurance against going to a crap team or city - would mean he'd considering waiving it for the right situation.
He and his agent wanted leverage - would mean he'd need more moulah to waive the clause.

I have no idea what his reason for wanting the clause to begin with was. Anyone have any insight?

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 19, 2007 3:14 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I don't have any specific insight into Randy's desire for the no-trade in his contract, but I could posit two:

. He was with his third organization and might have wanted some geographical security for his family.

. He is back where he grew up, and his parents (and possibly his brother) can watch him play every day.

by sharksrog on Jun 19, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

How about this:

+ No-trade clauses favor the player and agents get what they can get.

by achiappanza on Jun 20, 2007 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I'd say that considering he has a fairly large guaranteed contract and is living back in the bay area where his family is, he'd certainly have some reasons to decline a trade.

by mxmob33 on Jun 19, 2007 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I think I've mentioned this before on this site, but I'm friends with Randy Winn's brother. I posed Grant's comment starter in an email to Kyle this morning and this is what he said:

"Its a limited no trade clause. I don't know all the cities, but I'm pretty sure he'd go to a contender."

Also, FWIW, Randy lives in Florida in the off-season.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jun 19, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I was under the impression that it was still a full no-trade clause, switching to a limited clause for 2008 and 2009. mlb4u indicates that during the offseason he could make a list of ten places he can veto a trade to.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 19, 2007 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Honestly, I would trust the people on this site to know more about the details of the no-trade clause than Kyle. The important part is that he thinks Randy would probably be willing to waive it to go to a contender.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jun 19, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Thanks for asking him, Pete. Good insight.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 19, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

I do what I can for the McCoven.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jun 19, 2007 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Your actual information smacks of truth and has no place in our panic threads.

I bet he'd really consider a trade to a contender if the AAAA lineup took the field once the fire sale has burned out the other deadwood.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Jun 19, 2007 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

They can trade every damn veteran on the club as far as I'm concerned, but I think we need to be realistic about what they'll pull in. As J-Po mentioned yesterday, the deadline market has changed. Look at all of the deals from the last three years. There's Scott Kazmir in 2004 and there's Jeremy Accardo last year (oops), but there aren't many other examples of a seller getting a player that has made a major impact so far.

Think minor league depth, salary relief, and cheap, passable big leaguers. But acquiring two prospects who will have a .900+ OPS in our 2008 lineup? Not gonna happen.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 19, 2007 4:07 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

As far as trading every damn veteran, I'd keep Molina as I've said before.

Your point about sellers not getting much is valid and I think the team needs to wiegh a trade vs. what they'd get by keeping a player and getting a comp pick.

Klesko's numbers just keep going up! (.318/.405/.488 as of 6/14/07)

by Goofus on Jun 19, 2007 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

But how many of these players are the Type A or B players that would get a comp pick? And the ones that are signed for next year, how can we be sure that they wouldn't retire or be so ineffective that they won't get any picks at all? I mean, Richie won't bring any picks when he leaves. Feliz will maybe be a Type B. What if Durham keeps hitting like he's hitting now? We've got Roberts for 3 years, so it'll be a while with him anyway. Dreamy will maybe be a Type B. If they take last year into account (like I think they do), how can Klesko bring anything all that good? I think the problem is that if our guys were going to bring anything good in comp picks, we wouldn't be losing so often.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 19, 2007 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Hmmm... which free agents would we offer arbitration to this offseason? Certainly not Bonds, Vizquel or Sweeney. Feliz, Klesko or Ortiz? Only if we're prepared for one or more of them to accept the offer.

I'm not expecting much in the way of compensation picks next year, regardless of whether or not we trade any of these guys.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 19, 2007 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Do we really, truly believe a fire sale is coming?

Really, in our guts?

Succumb to Tiny Tim! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jun 19, 2007 4:48 PM PDT reply actions

Sorry to change the subject...

This is all very interesting and I do not mean to break the momentum of a great thread, but this news out of LA is interesting (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2909723) and shows that Sabean can do something right. I know everyone is way down on the guy now, but he deserves credit for getting this one...

by capn roderigo on Jun 19, 2007 4:49 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Sorry to change the subject...

But then he turned around and signed a decent #2 with falling peripherals to 126 mil deal that is going to seriously cripple to compete when we are finally back in a place where we can compete.

Stupid is as stupid does.

by covenant on Jun 22, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

A fire sale is really the only thing that could save sabeans credibility. he probably wont be with the giants much longer anyways, but just riding this team into the ground cant be looked at in high regard by the other teams out there who might consider hiring him. at 9,10,11,12 games out (the number went from 9 to 12 just while i typed that) there is NO reason to keep guys like morris, wynn, klesko, etc. if we could get ANYONE in return for them under the age of 30, it would be an improvement.

why cant we be on the other end of a deal like the accardo, or joe nathan/liriano deal? you KNOW there is a team out there that has a sniff at the postseason and will trade away future A+ guys for anyone that will help their chances to win. and guys like morris, klesko, and winn could definitely help those teams.

we've got some amazing talent to build around. cain, lincecum, lowry, and even zito is still young. if we could get some hitting prospects in return for the vets, we'd be on the rise again in 2 or 3 years.

by projectmayhem713 on Jun 19, 2007 7:00 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

im tired of the press taking the majority of the blame off sabean's shoulders

while baer and macgowan need to be held accountable, they placed their faith in their gm's philosophy, which is, development is a crap shoot, so lets draft arms...everyone needs arms...so what we dont use, we can trade for another team's bats

that philosophy has not panned out...and neither has the development of pitching, as the 3 biggest fa aquisitions in the past 4 years have been pitchers. if you are really growing them, why the need to buy.

look...if sabean can pull off a bango fire sale, bringing this team some mlb ready prospects, then, and only then should he be given another year extension....i just dont see him having the energy to pull off rebuilding

and if macgowan and baer dont think the fans can deal with a rebuilding process, unless they can come up with a 130 mil payroll, i dont see the alternative

fans wont stand for another year of this shit, with no future in the cards, and without a bonds chasing henry storyline

and everyone's nightmare has come true...the giants will be hosting the as game, firmly in last place and without any allstars

by bacci40 on Jun 20, 2007 1:25 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Phpppt

"they placed their faith in their gm's philosophy, which is, development is a crap shoot, so lets draft arms...everyone needs arms...so what we dont use, we can trade for another team's bats
that philosophy has not panned out...and neither has the development of pitching, as the 3 biggest fa aquisitions in the past 4 years have been pitchers. if you are really growing them, why the need to buy."

You nailed it right there. The worst part is that we already have proof of Sabean's inability to change: couple his repeated digs at players lately (basically "Well, if they'd just play better, we wouldn't be in this mess"), along with the 2007 draft, and we have evidence that he is a deer in the headlights, and the idea of jumping out of the way of the oncoming truck is just too much for him to handle. This will assuredly end badly.

***

Succumb to Tiny Tim! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jun 20, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

Ralph on the "New Cafe" board made a great point:

"but of course, Giants fans will never tolerate
rebuilding, but, 100 losses when the team is trying to win it all, hey, that's fine."

by Cleophus on Jun 20, 2007 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Phpppt

It's like saying "Drivers will never tolerate seismic retrofitting of freeway overpasses."

If the alternative is complete structural collapse, you bet they'll tolerate it...

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 1.99 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jun 20, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions

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