read between the lines...sabean wants out

by bacci40 on Jun 1, 2007 1:55 AM PDT

Im sorry that i cannot provide a link or provide the entire conference call...this is being gleaned from multiple reports.

In an extraordinary conference call with reporters, Sabean left no doubt he was unhappy that he was forced by public opinion to consummate a trade that leaves the Giants with no experienced closer.

"The type of person or professional I am, I don't take any satisfaction in anybody's demise or inability to do his job," Sabean said. "I'll say one thing about Armando. He was strong enough to be a whipping boy.

"The first game here (in New York) we had three players who were not available. That was not Armando's fault. Tonight we had three hits and looked dead as a doornail. That was not Armando's fault. We are at a crossroads in my mind, and apparently the fans, the press and some people in the clubhouse felt he needed to go.

"Now we're going to find out what they're made of. We'll see who's strong enough to be the whipping boy now. ... We're going to find out who, when and how we're going to step up. Right now, as we speak, we're heading closer to last place than first place. I don't know that that was Armando Benitez's fault."

Sabean also added this about mando:

"He's been hounded by the media, the fans and some teammates,"

so lets consider his angry and frustrated words. in mr sabean's fantasy world, the press and the fans are placing the teams woes solely on the back of mando.

now if the fans and press are represented by those few idiots on knbr, that would be true...but they are not. listening to razer state over and over that all this team needs is a bat, and the only thing holding this team back from going far into the playoffs was mando, was idiocy at its finest. but that is off topic...back to my point

also, forget that sabean rewrites history and neglects to note mando's comments about his teammates to the press, or that on tuesday night, he didnt seem so much into being a whipping boy...for that isnt the point of this thread either.

it was brian sabean that put this aging and injury prone team together. it was brian sabean who apparently never created a strategy for a post bonds era. it was brian sabean that drafted and put together a farm system that in eleven years has not developed one impact player. it was brian sabean who chose to trade young pitchers for over the hill ones and/or 4 month to 1 year position player rentals. it was brian sabean that chose to not pursue vlad so as to fill his infield with players like el fatso and neifi. it was brian sabean that chose to badmouth his own prospect, elli in the press and then proceed to sign dirty sanchez (he of the stone hands and no stick).

if brian really wants to know who the next whipping boy is going to be...he only needs to look in the mirror.

and if brian sabean wishes to place this move squarely on the shoulders of the media and the fans, then by all rights, we are the new gm of the giants.

and as the new gm, i will happily accept mr sabean's resignation. hey brian...see...i can read between the lines.

youre fired

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Comments

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Seriously...what a chicken shit kind of response. It's clear that even our own GM has forgotten that he's the one that got us into this cluster-fuck.

I can see him this next off-season after we fire his ass, "I didn't want to get rid of the only closer on the staff, the fans and media put me up to it." It's that kind of attitude that must surely keep Mr. Sabean from finding another GM position elsewhere. What kind of owner would be OK with the GM saying that the pressures put on him to field a winning team are keeping him from doing his job effectively.

Omar Vizquel wants Shepard out. NUFC would be better for it!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 1, 2007 2:06 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Thanks for the one shot at a World Series, now fuck off and leave.

We won the Football League again, this time on Merseyside

by Tajiri on Jun 1, 2007 2:55 AM PDT reply actions

He's done. Gotta be.

I just don't see him being our GM next year. Not after this. This sounds like the ramblings of man on his way out, don't it? It's pretty clear the criticism is getting to him, but I figured he'd be more professional than this. He's calling his players and fans out for crying out loud. How long are we supposed to tolerate mediocrity? That he was "forced" to trade his precious proven closer shows just how delusional he must be at this point. Benitez was terrible and you didn't need a geeky stat sheet to see it.

Stop trading away cheap young talent. Stop overspending on over-the-hill players who have no business playing everyday. Stop throwing it back in our faces when it's YOU, Brian Sabean, who's put us in this position. Even if you want to hand Ownership blame, and they certainly deserve it, you still had a hand in all this.

Good riddance to both of them.

The bright side: Brian Sabean should be out of a job in a few months.

by Punch Rockgroin on Jun 1, 2007 3:23 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I agree that it was Armando who made his own bed, but I don't disagree with Sabean about having a public who cries out for things and then will blame him when he does those things...I remember a lot of people wanting the Giants to trade for a young, established position player, and then he traded for a 27-year old All-Star....cue the dead horse image.

But seriously, blasting him for having 'No Post-Bonds Era' strategy when Bonds isn't gone yet? And I'd say the strategy is there: he's put together a rotation that has the 4th best ERA in the majors despite a disappointing start from the star free agent, and the heart of that rotation are signed, sealed and delivered for 4-5 years. Building by pitching staff in a pitcher's park sounds like a plan to me.

And if Noah Lowry, Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum aren't 'impact players', who are?

No, this bashing is as jaded and short-sighted as the attacks it lays on Sabean. A GM might be hired in a day, but a farm system takes years to turn-over. It usually takes 3 to 5 years for new draft picks and young acquisitions to move from signing to majors. So make that 11 years more like 6....and then, just those three names as impact players (and then multiple role players or better like Torrealba and Frandsen) aren't so bad.

Of course, here comes the retort: "I meant position players!" Suuuure you did. Well, pitchers are important too, very important. Ask the '90's Braves.

Sabean hasn't been as great as he was when he turned the team around in 1997 or the trades in the early part of this decade, but he's not the worst GM in the league, not by a long shot. And I'll be disappointed if it's the crying hordes of the lunatic fringe that push him away, because the likely replacements won't be much better.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 3:42 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Why do people keep comparing Sabean's strategy to the 90s Braves? The Braves developed and started (as rookies) David Justice, Ryan Klesko, Javi Lopez, Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, and later Rafael Furcal, Brian McCann, Adam LaRoche, Jeff Franceour. How is that comparable to the Giants over the last decade?

I certainly did agree with Sabean both on Thursday's radio program and last night's press conference that Benitez wasn't the biggest problem with this organization. Sabean and his team are. They're the ones putting this team together -- a team, that is, as he says, moving closer to last place than to first and has been for three years.

by Roger on Jun 1, 2007 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Well, in the process of developing guys (more recently) like Furcal, McCann, LaRoche, and Franceour, who have they really developed pitching wise? They went from having a pretty good (and stable) rotation to digging around outside of the organization like Ortiz, Hudson, etc.

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

In fact, it's a misperception that they've ever developed a lot of pitching. They developed Glavine and Avery. They signed Maddox as a coveted FA. They traded for Smoltz who was a very highly regarded prospect before they ever got their hands of him. All the rest were pretty fungible reliever types like Mark Wohlers. They did develop Jason Schmidt but it's hard to say they made a mistake getting rid of him when they did. On the other hand, Jermaine Dye, probably the only trade Schuerholz has made that he really regrets, they gave away cheaply because of all the other good young OFers they had at the time. They have successfully and steadily developed All-Star caliber position players over the last 15 years much much more so than pitchers.

by Roger on Jun 1, 2007 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Didn't they develop Milwood too?

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 1, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I think so. Right around the time they developed Damian Moss, right?

by Gorgoroth on Jun 1, 2007 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I understand that Moss isn't very good, but my point was that Milwood is a solid major league starter, and we haven't developed any position prospects anyone could say that about.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 1, 2007 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

It's less about how and more about the results: The Braves team in the '90's, while it had several good hitters, was truly built around great pitching.

The pitching staff was assembled by a mix of free agency and building from within: that early staff had traded for Smoltz in the late '80's and signed Maddux in 1993, but Glavine and Avery were both home grown. The hitters didn't really come around until later.

1991's team had a young Gant and Justice contributing, but the star of the start of the team was free agent Terry Pendleton. Gant would be gone after 1993.

Other than Justice, most of those names you mention were developed long after the pitching-first mentality was in place: Klesko and Lopez made their debuts in 94, but the star then was a 30 year old free agent signing, Fred McGriff. 95 was Chipper Jones' debut. Andruw's debut was in 96, but that was as a very not-ready 19-year old.

Yes, the Giants will definitely have to find hitting, but it should be a mix of how the Braves did it (and did the pitching, for that matter). A.) Free Agency. It doesn't have to all be done in one season, but good players should be signed. B.) Trades, especially for younger players. The Giants depth in pitching, both in the majors and minors, makes that possible. C.) Grow your own. The Giants aren't as barren as some think. I do believe in Frandsen, even if he's had a bit of a tough time recently. I also believe in Schierholtz, and EME (despite his poor year so far). That's a solid start. The lower levels hold some other guys with promise, from the middle infield (Bocock, Burriss, Sanders) to the outfield (Copeland, Richardson, Weston, among others), and others (Villalona). And that's before this year's important draft, where some first rounders could move up the organization quickly.

Now, one might debate whether or not Sabean is the right man for the job in the post-Bonds era, and legitimately so. Some of his moves recently have been questionable (but not all of them: can anyone call signing Molina and then signing Klesko for cheap not good signings? How about getting something (Blackley) for nothing (Ellison)?).

However, I think it's clear the post-Bonds foundation has been laid, and will make building off of it a lot easier (and faster) than tearing the thing down and starting from scratch.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

That's a pretty good analysis that generally speaking I agree with. Those Braves teams had probably 3 HOF pitchers and that pretty much de facto makes you a pitching first team (although they'd already been to a World Series by the time the best of them came along). But the pipeline of talent that came in the wake of Glavine and Avery was what has allowed them to stay up for so long with such a revolving cast. They've always had somebody to replace others who left, were injured, or stopped being productive. And they've never really spent a ton of money doing it (This year, they're spending less on Smoltz + Hudson than the Giants will be spending on some years of Zito's contract).

One of the big issues for us going forward, I think, is is our starting rotation overrated. My view: unless Cain and Lowry gain some command in the fairly near future, yes. And sadly, the last 12 years of this organization don't give a lot of hope that they know how to help pitchers gain command.

As for the prospects, I'm much less optimistic than you, as usual. And in my favor, this spring you countered my optimism by predicting that Todd Linden would prove himself to be an above replacement level starter this year. Also, you've been a big proponent of Mike Mooney in past discussions. So I'll stick to my skeptical stance on our prospects for awhile, I think. Time will tell, and hopefully I'm totally wrong.

by Roger on Jun 1, 2007 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I'll admit that Linden was a HUGE disappointment this year, and he did a damned good job of making me look bad in the process. Mooney hasn't been spectacular in San Jose, but he hasn't been bad, either. Overall, he's been very consistent, and I have nothing bad to say about him right now.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Giants minor league pitching depth?

With Lincecum now up what are you talking about, besides Sanchez (who has had a little shot and hasnt shown too much thus far).

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Jun 1, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Giants minor league pitching depth?

Not saying they're elite prospects or anything, but they certainly provide tons of depth:

Jonathan Sanchez
Patrick Misch
Brian Wilson
Billy Sadler
Scott Munter
Travis Blackley

Further down the line:
Justin Hendrick
Brian Anderson
Nick Pereira
Alex Hinshaw

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Giants minor league pitching depth?

In Triple-A (aside from Sanchez):

Pat Misch could be a starter in most systems, but he's been moved to relief because he has no shot with our rotation right now.
Travis Blackley was an underrated pickup who has been consistent (and is getting better). He's probably a reliever long term.
Except for the strikeout, Scott Munter has revitalized his career in Fresno and could be back soon.
I still believe that Brian Wilson is the closer of the future.
Don't forget about Billy Sadler, although he's not been great this year so far.

In Double-A:

Nick Pereira is a disappointment only because of what he did this year, but he's been progressing.
People are down on Dave McKae because of his low velocity, but he's got an advanced feel for the zone and adjusts well to hitters, and it's hard to argue with his production.
Geno Espineli continues to impress (again, probably a long term reliever, though).
Osiris Matos is looking like a solid hard throwing reliever.
Brian Anderson took some hits early but has regained his form as a closer.
Justin Hedrick remains a strikeout machine.
Cox was a steal in trade in 2005, and is another hard-throwing reliever (although he's also been starting this year).

In High-A:

Once again, the top staff in the league.
Joe Martinez doesn't overwhelm in any one area, but remains remarkably consistent day in and day out.
Paul Oseguera, an oft-injured pitcher in college, returned to starting and has been fantastic.
Taylor Wilding has been a revelation in the bullpen.
Kelvin Pichardo almost makes the Tucker deal worthwhile, with a legitimate 96 MPH fastball.
Sergio Romo, headcase issues aside, is clearly talented.

In Low-A:
* Once again, the top staff in the league.
* Cowart is, of course, doing better than anyone ever suspects.

Ben Snyder is looking like a great pick out of the 4th round.
Henry Sosa is coming into his own.
Clayton Tanner is doing very well this season.

* Dan Griffin is still in the mix, even with mixed performance this year.

Kevin Pucetas may be the hardest worker I've seen in the system, even if his stuff isn't overwhelming. He's overwhelming the SAL league, though.
Four 'starters' from Augusta are in the Top 10 for the league of ERA. Snyder is just outside of that Top 10.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Giants minor league pitching depth?

you forgot to mention hinshaw in aa

i love alex...

by bacci40 on Jun 1, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions

Very comprehensive thanks

While you did have a nice long list though I think if you guys are looking for "Young Talent" none of those guys are going to be able to get that right now, AA and A guys are relatively hard to project and won't net much now, and all your AAA guys are bullpen guys it seems, which most teams are just gonna stick their failed starters there, so I don't think they have much trade value now.

Again, all this could change if these players turn out good in the majors, if they can become the next Mike Gonzalez or Scott Linebrink then you can start talking about young talent. but AAA relievers aren't getting you anything now.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Jun 1, 2007 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Great post, Brute, and I totally agree. I was happy to see Sabean call out the team yesterday, they deserved to be called out. And he IS on the right path with repairing the problems with this team. The bats are not there, but the arms certainly are. And with all the draft picks he has next week he can certainly find some hitters. Who do you want running this team, one of the nine GM's who passed on Tim Lincecum in last year's draft?? Sabean's frustration is probably due to the fact that he knows he is in the last year of his deal, and another poor showing by the team will get him fired. How can he not be mad at someone like Ray Durham, who takes a week off when he breaks a nail, and then suddenly in the last year of his deal in 2006 has a great year and magically becomes durable?? And now with a two year deal he is back to the same old crap. How could he not get mad at Bonds who sits out a game after they just had two days off in the last five days, when the lineup has a few injured regulars?? As for the fans, I turned on Benitez myself, because of all the agita he gave me but he's right when he says that Benitez was not the biggest problem, he was just the fan's whipping boy. Whenever I look at the starting lineups before the game, the other team is playing all of their regulars, and we're resting guys, and have guys with silly minor injuries out of the lineup. It's a joke already. I was happy to see Sabean lash out of them. Let them be angry with him. Who cares?? Someone has to wake them up. On the other hand, Giant fans need a new whipping boy now, and their finger may now start to point in Brian's direction.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

>>"Ray Durham, who takes a week off when he breaks a nail, and then suddenly in the last year of his deal in 2006 has a great year and magically becomes durable?? And now with a two year deal he is back to the same old crap."

#1: Durham had worse statistics across the board last season at this time during his "great year". He had a lower BA, less HR's, less RBI's, a lower OBP, and a lower SLG.

#2: Durham played is LESS games last year than the year before (2006: 137, 2005: 142), and just one more AB, so he didn't "magically" become durable in his contract year, he's slowly gotten more durable since he's been a Giant, getting more AB's each season than he did the previous season (2003: 410, 2004: 471, 2005: 497, 2006: 498). This year he's played in 46 of 54 games, which puts him on pace for 140 this year. Not coincidenly, that's exactly what he's averaged over the past 2 seasons.

by English Professor on Jun 1, 2007 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Correction: The Giants have only played 53 games this year, not 54. But the year number is right - he's on pace for 140.

by English Professor on Jun 1, 2007 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Great post Brute. I'm not going to say Sabean deserves to keep his job, but he's working to try to prove that he does. As you pointed out, who is a better option? Who is even going to be available? Sabean, at some point, was one of the better GMs in the league. One bad-luck/poorly-calculated risk (Nathan/Liriano/Bonser for Zitski) has somewhat sent him into a spiraling drain of poor moves.

In any case, Sabean's regime has built one of the better pitching rotations in the NL, and possible in the majors. The great part is? They're all locked up for another handful of years (well, almost). I agree with you in that this is a very important portion of the team.

From what I've noticed, teams don't really develop pitching and hitters at the same time. I don't really have any statistical proof of this, but it's just what I've noticed. Teams that have great young hitters don't usually have great young pitchers. Ask the Mets. The Giants are on the flipside of that coin.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. You only get so many top draft picks in a certain time frame. You can't develop 3 or 4 starting pitchers AND great young position players. You only have so many chips to throw into the pile to bring back a piece of the pot.

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

We didn't have that many top draft picks because Sabean INTENTIONALLY THREW THEM AWAY. That's nobody's fault but his own. And it absolutely is his fault that so many players are sitting out, HE'S the one who insisted on signing aging, injury-prone veterans. Nobody can cry foul on Ray Durham and Barry Bonds sitting out with aches and pains and expect any sympathy from me, that pretty much comes with the package.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 1, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I'm not talking about lack of draft picks because of punts. I'm speaking in general. A team is granted one, and then extras based on other criteria. So say a team has 1 first rounder, and a sandwich round. The likelihood of hitting on BOTH players is extremely low as it is. Now factor in that you'd have to spread yourself thinner and pick a hitter AND a pitcher. Who comes first? Which have the higher likelihood of succeeding?

I'm not saying pitchers were the safer bet. But judging from the way the Giants system has developed them, it seems they have a better grasp on those kind of prospects. They go with their strengths in the draft and supplement the other half via free agency and/or trades.

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I don't agree that Sabean "intentionally threw them away" because GM's don't pay the salaries. If GM's were given an open checkbook, they would sign every elite free agent they could, and hold on to all their draft picks and sign them for whatever their agents asked for. Sabean was given a payroll number he had to stick to, and combine that with the Giants always "win now" edict, and he decided the best way to maximize success on the field was to spend all the organization money on the major league team. Do you think Sabean would have intentionally thrown away his number one picks if he was the Yankees or Red Sox GM??

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I realize that's what he decided was the best route to success but that was a poor decision and that's one of the reasons he should go.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 1, 2007 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

The strategy for post-Bonds ISN'T there IMO. Yes, a rotation of Lincecum, Cain, Zito, Lowry and Morris has some sizzle -- although I expect a drop off from both the last two. But the bullpen still has some work to go to get to average, and the Giants lineup for next season might be something like:

Roberts CF

Winn LF

Klesko 1B

Durham 2B

Molina C

Aurilia SS

Feliz 3B

Schierholtz RF

That's not a very good lineup to look forward to. Yes, the Giants would have Bonds' money available for a replacement, but they could easily strike out with the top free agents this winter just as they did last.

And do you think putting, say, Andruw Jones or Tori Hunter in the lineup in place of Schierholtz would provide a lineup that would score more than 700-725 runs?

The Giants pitching should be their future strong point, but do you think it is likely that their staff will be able to hold opponents much under 700 runs? That means they would need to score 800 runs or more in order to be a top-notch team. And just how are they going to do that without Bonds when they can't even do so WITH him?

If the Giants could somehow get Alex Rodriguez, they would indeed have a replacement for Barry. But if not, they will need a replacement for Barry in ADDITION to the two power-hitting bats they already need.

Take away Bonds and the Giants are averaging fewer than two walks per game and less than 0.6 homers per contest. In other words, without Bonds, they hit like the Washington Nationals.

I believe that at most you are showing us half a plan here, Kevin. I would feel much better if you were able to share the remainder of the plan with us.

by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2007 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I agree that negativity and what Sabes calls "lunatic"-mindedness seems to have taken over those of us who follow the team's fortunes religiously, and maybe we can and should be more realistic and stop giving in to manic mood-swings -- but really, the onus is not on the fanbase, no matter how negative we get, even if we become Phillies fans. The onus is not even primarily on the players, or any one player, whether it's the Zillion Dollar Man, or the Dark Lord, or the Kwisatz Haderach (peace and blessings...) It's on the front office that puts the overall team together and the ownership that funds it. A whipping boy is punished for another's misdeeds. If Benitez was anybody's whipping boy, he was Sabean's.

Tim Lincecum: the Second Coming of Christy

by shanghaijim on Jun 1, 2007 4:29 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I don't agree that Benitez was his whipping boy, and you can see that he is upset that he had to deal him away and eat his salary. While we are all glad to see him go, his trade value was higher during spring training and the first month of the season. He was now forced into making this deal right now, at a time he has no leverage whatsoever. During spring training it was reported that upper management wanted to dump him, while Sabean was trying to convince them to hold off on this. Sabean has to be unhappy that the current climate around the ballclub (players, fans and media) have made it impossible for him to wait any longer.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I actually agree with you, I'm just used to thinking of "whipping boy" as the boy who got punished when the prince did something bad -- i.e., Sabean is the prince, Benitez is his whipping boy. Sabean does something bad -- messes up assembling a team -- Benitez becomes the target.

But this is probably belaboring the metaphor and discounts Armando's own faults (no sweet innocent pauper he) so I'll stop now.

Tim Lincecum: the Second Coming of Christy

by shanghaijim on Jun 1, 2007 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Nice Dune reference, Maud'Dib.

I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Jun 1, 2007 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

BruteSentiment makes a great point that Sabean just can't win. I get that he's frustrated with the last few seasons, as much as the fanbase is frustrated with the last few seasons. To me it all points to the end for him in SF, and not too soon. We don't want him, and after all this he doesn't want us. I don't blame either party in this.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 1, 2007 6:12 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Listening to all this, he sounds like a guy who wants out of a marriage. I still personally like Sabean, but after the past couple of days it's clear that the end is near. And he has really no one to blame but himself. How many times have we seen over the past few years players who are way past the sell-by date get signed or traded for who are here for that "veteran presence"?

My friends and I used to have a belief that someone in the organization would look at the roster of the All-Star game eight or ten years before, find out who was still playing, and then try to sign them. Obviously that wasn't the case, but it sure felt like it. "Wow. They signed XXXX. Boy, he *used* to be a good player when he was with (fill in name of team)." Hopefully, this stuff will stop, 'cause it's an old song and dance that just doesn't work anymore.

by Van Smack on Jun 1, 2007 6:36 AM PDT reply actions

The A's do this too...

Mike Piazza, Frank Thomas, David Justice etc., it just matters which ones you do it for and not signing them to 3482935894859 year contracts, and just 1 year deals instead.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Jun 1, 2007 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions

This is Sabean's way of saying

"I did my job."

by juanboy on Jun 1, 2007 6:41 AM PDT reply actions

Re: This is Sabean's way of saying

Ned Colletti was out of position.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jun 1, 2007 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Come on, Chris, sure you can blame Sabean. To the extent allowed by Magowan (and we'll never know for sure about that) this is Brian's team. And, presumably, Brian's drafting results in the minors. Currently, both are rather lacking. Sure, there have been some good pitchers acquired (Schmidt, Zito) and drafted (Cain, Lincecum); and we've had a few good years. Recently, not so much. We've been to the World Series only once while employing the greatest hitter of the last fifty years, at least.

Time for a cool change.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jun 1, 2007 6:42 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I should say I don't blame Sabean or the fans for being angry, disgruntled, etc. Sabean should keep up a cool front as he's one face of an organization but I think we all know that the guy's way past his limit on patience.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 1, 2007 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

It is time to show Sabean the gate and I think that will happen at season's end. I echo what Lyle says - eleven seasons with the greatest player who ever played and the team's personnel has gone downhill since 2000, depsite our World Series appearence, and with a good payroll.

I could go on, but how about this? Best MLB careers of position players drafted by Sabean in the last ten years.

Fred Lewis......77 AB, 105 OPS+
Lance Niekro...466 AB, 83 OPS+
Tony Torcato....47 AB, 83 OPS+
Jason Ellison..466 AB, 76 OPS+
Dan Ortmier.....69 AB, 73 OPS+
Cody Ransom....105 AB, 70 OPS+
Todd Linden....383 AB, 61 OPS+
Kevin Frandsen.148 AB, 56 OPS+

Anybody missing?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Jun 1, 2007 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I decided to look through the drafts, and the first thing I saw was that Jason Grilli was the 1st Round, #4 pick by the Giants in 1997. 5th pick, Toronto? Vernon Wells. Lance Berkman went 16th.

All in all, Sabean hasn't drafted poorly. The good picks are just all pitchers.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions

What's the matter with Vernon?

He's not ours.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 1, 2007 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Well, here are arguably Sabean's 12 best draft picks and amateur FAs.

Liriano FA 2000
Lincecum 1st 2006
Cain 1st 2002
Linebrink 2nd 1997
Lowry 1st 2001
Accardo FA 2003
Bonser 1st 2000
Hensley 8th 2002
Correia 4th 2002
Aarsdma 1st 2003
Hennesey 1st 2001
Williams 1st 1999
Ainsworth 1st 1999
Foppert 2nd 2001

This list shows that since '99, the Giants have been good at identifying pitching talent at the top of the draft, but still, other than our current starting rotation and the toxic Pierzynski and Hillenbrand trades, have little to show from the farm system 10 years down the road.

I think this is partly because pitchers are a risky commodity. Foppert, Williams and Ainsworth quickly turned from world beaters to flops. Liriano, Cain and Lincecum only have about 400 IP combined - whose to say how their careers will turn out? It's no wonder that building a starting staff from the farm system is so rarely done.

The bottom line is that Sabean's plan has not worked since the early 2000's.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Jun 1, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

No one is missing except hitters. :)

by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2007 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

If I were Sabean, I would be pissed too. He had to go crawling back to the phone to unload his $7.6m closer, only got a fungible middle reliever in return, and had to eat (hah... eat) Mando's salary in the process.

Sabean's hand was forced; he had no bargaining power and was basically at the mercy of other GMs. Any bargaining power he might have had with regard to trading Mando was stripped by the fan base turning on Mando, and justifiably so. This isn't exactly Sabean's finest hour as GM, and he is probably lucky even to have gotten Messenger in return instead of simply having to DFA Eatmando. To make it worse, he gets to listen to shrill-tastic Barbieri as fan proxy whine about it, all the while seething because he knows that Barbieri doesn't know a goddamn thing about being a major-league GM.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 6:48 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

All true, but equally true when JP RIccardi was in an even worse spot he managed to pick up Jeremy Accardo for a guy he had only 3 days left to move.

by Roger on Jun 1, 2007 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

there were multiple teams interested in Shea Hillenbrand though. Ricciardi was able to take the best offer. Right from the start the Marlins were the only team that has expressed any interest at all in Armando Benitez. The Mariners might have been interested for about five minutes in spring training, but once they heard that Putz wasn't seriously injured they backed off.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Unlike Ricciardi, Sabean can't trade with Sabean...

Hillenbrand wasn't great, but he had put up a 107 OPS+ for the prior 2 1/2 years. He got dumped for other reasons.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Oh, and by the way, there was an article in the Chicago Tribune today about the White Sox. I won't link it, in part because you have to register and in part because the article is mainly about Darin Erstad's injury.

Buuut.... this blurb at the end may be of interest: "Erstad's injury came in front of a crowd of 22,436 that included the second San Francisco Giants scout to watch the Sox in four days."

Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, and Josh Fields are all at AAA Charlotte. So they weren't scouting those guys. Then whom was being scouted?

Jermaine Dye? Good.

Rob Mackowiak? Erstad?!?! Alex Cintron? Blecccchhhhhh.

Brokedown Joe Crede? Even when healthy, he wouldn't be much better than Feliz, especially when you consider glove work. And he isn't healthy.

JI
JIM THOME? Naah. I just wanted to type that.

If Sabean is looking for a White Sox bat, he will be buying low. The Sox have scored 11 fewer runs than the Giants - yeah, that is in 3 fewer games, but they have a DH. Their rotation has been good 1-5, so it can't be about the White Sox needing starting pitching.

Speculation?

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 7:01 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Please, if there is a merciful God, no Darin Erstad.

Jesse Foppert: Welcome home, my son. And meet your adopted brother, Kelvin Pichardo. He's from the Dominican Republic.

by leftymalo on Jun 1, 2007 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

The White Sox love him, and he has, against all odds and in a small sample size, been a good leadoff hitter. So I doubt he is the subject of interest.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions

bad leadoff hitter

OBP: .311

Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz

by lyricalkiller on Jun 1, 2007 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: bad leadoff hitter

Yes, but he has been better since he took over the leadoff spot. The point is that Ozzie Guillen likes him. He still sucks.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

yeah. wow. no shit. ugh.

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Jun 1, 2007 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I don't want any of them. The good ones will be expensive, overrated rentals, and the bad ones are just bad.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Jun 1, 2007 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

If the price is high, I agree. They aren't likely to trade Konerko. Thome is a DH. That leaves Dye and a bunch of crap, and they have had enough OF injuries that it isn't likely they would trade Dye.

Joe Crede has been terrible, and he is trying to play through two herniated discs. They don't seem to like Josh Fields, particularly because his defense is supposed to be poor. They also lost backup 3B/OF/utility Pablo Ozuna recently to injury. Maybe they want Feliz? Can't he be traded after the 15th?

It seems as if anyone we should be looking at is in Charlotte. Then again.... maybe they were scouting Toronto?

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Maybe he was scouting for what the White Sox need? That's what I hope.

I've said Fred Lewis a lot to the White Sox, but admittingly, they'd have to have lost faith in their outfielders. They do already have a speed-based guy who's performing (Jerry Owens, .305/.386/.389, 23 SB in AAA), though Anderson remains a bit underwhelming (.272/.350/.417 in AAA) and Sweeney is...well, there (.267/.343/.400). So Lewis to the White Sox is probably less and less of a reality.

But I still love the idea of using pitchers (Especially young ones) to try and pry someone (read: Josh Fields) away from Chicago. Unfortunately, the Sox need help everywhere, and I was hoping Crede, a postseason hero, would help the team re-fall in love with him. Nope, so the White Sox probably will be holding onto Fields.

They could probably still use pitching, where the overpaid nature of their rotation ($33.5M for the three vets signed for 2008, which doesn't include their current top guy, Buerhle) might handcuff their moves to buy hitting, and they have nothing at Triple-A worth discussing (their big offseason trade, for Heath Phillips, has resulted in Phillips having a 6.21 ERA in Triple-A, inflated after giving up 18 runs in 7 innings over his last two starts). But right now, they're probably unlikely to give up anything worthwhile to the Giants. They'll probably be hanging on to their hitting prospects, and other than Dye, there's little of use to the Giants. Dye might, at least, give the team a shot at a Type A Free agent if he leaves, and his poor year so far might make him a semi-bargain as a free agent.

The 2008 draft will not be a good one for the Giants, as the probable only hope for a first round pick they'd have is finishing in the bottom half. Only Bonds is a legitimate Type A threat, and I doubt he'll finish his career somewhere other than the Giants. Any possible Type B's (sandwich round picks) are underperforming, or are likely to take arbitration offers (Feliz, Vizquel). And the Giants have enough guys potentially offensively to need to sign free agents; waiting around for the arb. deadline to see what scrubs don't get arbitration won't help the team.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

That is possible, although the White Sox probably can tell us what they need without any help ;)

I am pretty sure Fields would be available, but now that Ozuna has wrecked his leg it won't happen unless they get a 3Bman back. Crede is really struggling and his back isn't getting any better. He is trying to play through it, but he probably will need surgery. The Sox aren't high on Fields. He hasn't forced his way onto the team by hitting like Ryan Braun, and his defense apparently isn't very good at all.

Ozzie Guillen really likes Ryan Sweeney, but he hasn't hit at the major league level, and they haven't given him much of a chance. Brian Anderson seems to have fallen out of favor, and he is a good defensive CFer. Granted, that isn't really where we need help right now.

They like Gio Gonzalez so much, they traded to get him back. He is in AA, but he is definitely in their future rotation plans. Lance Broadway and Gavin Floyd are their other, less optimistic options.

Dye makes sense for us, but for them? Maybe if we send them young pitching and an OFer? They claim to value defense highly (although they trot Iguchi and Pierzynski out there every day), so they may not want Fred Lewis. Besides, Fred Lewis probably isn't better than Sweeney or Anderson. I don't think it is a good idea for the Giants, but Ozzie would loooove Randy Winn.

Another "White Flag Trade" won't make the fan base happy, and trading Dye early would definitely be in that vein. It may be that the White Sox are just being realistic about their chances in a division with the Tigers, Tribe, and Twins.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

If the Giants only hope for a first-round pick in the 2008 draft is to finish in the bottom half, I fail to see the problem. I think they are fully capable -- especially if they become sellers at the deadline as their future warrants.

by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2007 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I FEEL AS LIGHT AS AIR
AND THE CLOUDS DANCE AROUND ME

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on Jun 1, 2007 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

You are a boring homosexual.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions

I don't love Sabean, but...

what's wrong with saying, "Tonight we had three hits and looked dead as a doornail."

He's right. I loved taking out all my Giants-related frustration on Benitez. Yes, because he's a fat, useless choke artist who can't save a clutch game to save his life. But also because it's easier than trying to distribute the blame between Feliz, Aurilia, Vizquel, and Durham.

The fact of the matter is Sabean put together yet another team of aging veterans, but they should ALL be playing better than they are. Sabean needs to look in the mirror, surely, but what about these players? They're professionals, they should be working harder, pushing further, and throwing themselves at each and every game. I'm sick of watching my favorite team in sports half-ass it all the time. And that's the one thing you can't pin on Benitez, because he had a very full, very wide ass.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Here's to hoping the rest of the team steps up to the challenge.

by mjrboredom on Jun 1, 2007 8:48 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

john p over at onlybaseballmatters echoes my sentiments...and he has a link

http://onlybaseballmatters.com/

everyone should click on the audio of omar...its rather funny...he says that mando's probs were due to a communication problem

by bacci40 on Jun 1, 2007 9:20 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

by Cleophus on Jun 1, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.

by Aadik on Jun 1, 2007 9:21 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I think "fan pressure" is BS. Sabean has NEVER cared what the "lunatic fringe" think - and nor should he.

What I read between the lines is that MAGOWAN told him to dump Benitez at all costs... and THAT pissed him off. But he can't tell off his boss in the papers, because it would hurt his employment prospects.

by zenbitz on Jun 1, 2007 10:06 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I would agree with that. Magowan is the one who wanted him dumped in spring training and Sabean supposedly resisted. Maybe now Magowan said it had to be done. You're right about the lunatic fringe though. If Sabean cared what they think they would have acquired a legit hitter behind Bonds a long time ago.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 10:15 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

The "fan pressure" thing is a cop-out for any GM. Can you imagine what would happen if, say, Brian Cashman would get rid of someone because of what the fans think? If you think that the Bastille was ripped apart with bare hands, imagine what Yankee fans would do. More likely, it's the dude signing the checks that calls it. Magowan (the Godfather) told consigliere Sabean to do the deed.

Thus, the deed was done.

But it's easier for the GM to give the excuse of fan pressure because...presumably...the fans don't know anything. Also, like you alluded to, he doesn't want to end up as the Kansas City or Tampa Bay GM.

by Van Smack on Jun 1, 2007 10:25 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I'm very sure the guy signing the checks did call for it.

I'm also very sure the guy signing the checks called for it because the fans were overwhelmingly calling for it.

by BruteSentiment on Jun 1, 2007 10:27 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

you guys dont think bochy had some say in this matter?

by bacci40 on Jun 1, 2007 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Hard for me to believe that Magowan agreed to eat all that salary. But he has done so more often in recent years -- and he can't be happy with that. Another reason why Sabean is probably gone.

by Cleophus on Jun 1, 2007 10:38 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I really, really, really, really hope that Sabean is gone after this season, but I can see his frustration. Benitez had alienated himself to everyone in San Francisco and while the illogical fan part of me was happy to see him go the rational fan part of me realized that giving in to the illogical parts of all the fans isn't the kind of thing that's going to win many ballgames. Benitez would have done more to win over the rest of the season than Messenger will.

That said, this is a .500 team, maybe a little worse, and that's on Sabean for putting it together. My pity only runs so far - Benitez is washed up, he went, Kline, Aurilia, Viquel look washed up too, we'll see what happens to them, and Sabean is washed up as well - I guess we can just wait and see.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 1, 2007 11:13 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Sabean only has himself to blame for signing Benitez. This is where his "proven veteran" acquisition philosophy gets him in trouble. Signing a 32 year-old reliever to a big contract is inheriently risky, but Sabean sees it as a sure thing. These expensive but non-productive veteran aquisitions, along with his failure to develop useful farm players, have led to his downfall.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Jun 1, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

They have developed useful farm players, just not position players. As I've pointed out before, it's not uncommon (at least from what I've seen) to see a team be really strong in developing (or drafting) one area while "neglecting" the other side. The Mets are an interesting example. They have tons of young hitters, but nothing really in the means of pitchers. The Giants are kind of the exact opposite: great pitching, no hitting.

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I disagree. Over the last ten years, how many IP have Giants prospects provided? With Lincecum, Cain and Lowry in the fore, I think it's easy to say that Sabean has built a great starting rotation. But thus far, those guys have combined to pitch 550 innings, about half a season of starting pitching. Before that, Williams, Ainsworth and Foppert pitched about the same amount of innings - but they didn't last in the majors (well Williams - sort of). Over Sabean's regime the Giants have relied on expensive veterans to pitch about 80% of their innings.

As a rule his farm system has not produced useful players, even pitchers. And a good percentage of his useful players were wiped in one terrible trade for a catcher. His position players, which account for about 65% of baseball, hitting and fielding, have contributed absolutely nothing! Sabean made some fabulous trades from '96-01, otherwise I don't even see why there is a debate. He's been awful.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Jun 1, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

10 years. It's definitely a long time in general terms, but in the terms of prospects? Some players don't hit the majors until 3 to 5 years after the case. If you look around at all the pitchers that have been sent elsewhere, the Giants have produced an abundance of useful ML pitching.

I'm not denying that he's squandered a lot of that talent in trades that haven't worked out. People look at the three pitchers for AJ trade as if everyone knew it was a bad idea. Who knew Nathan would end up where he was? Who even knows NOW if Liriano will consistently be a good ML pitcher? And Bonser?

I'll agree that his more recent transactions are bad. But to solely place blame on him isn't fair. Bad luck has played a large role in things. Durham was relatively healthy when he got here no? E.Alfonso just fell off of the face of the Earth after two pretty solid seasons. And Moises crashing and burning year after year? Who would have known Moises would have tripped over the edge of the grass like he did last season (was it last season?)?

I'm pretty certain that if Sabean had full control over what direction the team could go, the team would be much better than it is right now. It would have gotten bad a whole lot sooner, but it may have come out of it better by now. It's part of the consequences of having meddling owners who aren't willing to shell out for what they want.

I'm not saying Sabean is off the hook. I'm not saying he isn't on the hot seat. I'm definitely not saying he'll be back next year. I'm just saying that the fate this franchise has been "doomed" to is not entirely his doing. Like Armando was a fan's scapegoat for the performance of the players, Sabean is Magowan's scapegoat for his shortsightedness and "win-now-while-we-have-Barry" ways.

by sfgfan on Jun 1, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

To be fair, I don't think Sabean made bad picks with Ainsworth, Foppert, and Vogelsong. All of them got hurt, and we don't know how they would have done otherwise.

You can't give Sabean credit for making good trades of prospects and then blame him for those prospects getting hurt and not developing into good pitchers. The mere fact that Sabean drafted Vogelsong should be a plus, because he was well-regarded enough (with Rios) to bring back Schmidt. That was a brilliant move.

Ainsworth also looked like a great prospect, and he (and spare parts) brought back Ponson. Now it is easy to make fun of Ponson now, as he became a laughingstock of a beached whale, but at the time, he was very good. He also pitched well for the Giants, and had we gone to the WS in 2003 we would be even happier about the trade.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 1, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I posted this list above. Here are Sabean's best picks and amatuer FAs (all pitchers).

He has picked talent, including Ainsworth, williams and Foppert (Foppert was a great pick), although the injurie Gods were unkind to that trio. Sabean ran a series of great trades from '96-'01, where he traded not only prospects but veterans. At that point, his skill seemed to be in identifying undrrated major league talent and pulling off the trades to aquire them (Kent, Schmidt, Burks, Livan, F-Rod, Snow).

During this period, he only traded off one true minor league talent, Linebrink, a trade that was easy to stomach when compared to all of his successes. But trading prospects has backfired the last three seasons, with the Pierzynski, Hillenbrand, Herges and Hawkins trades.

And so ten years down the road we have Lincecum, Cain, Lowry, Hennessey, Correia, Sanchez and whatever to show for it.. That's it. No hitters. No players left from trades of old prospects. These are the results of Sabean's Bonds plan. I love Cain and Lincecum, but this stinks. As a fan , I'm dissatisfied. Show Sabean the door, he's earned it.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Jun 2, 2007 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I don't think Sabes is as bad as some of the LF tend to think...but wow, he certainly doesn't help his own case w/this diatribe. Calling out a mediocre group of players to play...un-mediocre-ly? Dude, you BROUGHT them over here. Durham with injuries? Dude, you SAW what he was about for three years.

Why blame Benitez? Any intelligent baseball fan worth anything KNEW when benitez was signed that it had trouble all over it. No, NOT because of the cash involved. The nerds can debate economics on their own time. I'm talking about in a pure baseball sense, Benitez was and is a TERRIBLE player and is the quintissential choker; an epic 2004 does nothing to change this.

Why blame Feliz, next in line as Darth Sabean's apprentice? The dude hits 20 bombs a year, can't get on base. That's what he does. A player like that is GREAT to have in the 7/8 batting spot. But when Sabean tries to make him into a 3/4/5, he blames Feliz for not coming through? It's totally backwards.

If Sabean's not pulling strings and he is the puppet of McGowan & Friends, then fine, say so. Then we'll know who to blame. But don't call out an old, mediocre group of players for being an oft-injured, middling offense. THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. AND YOU BROUGHT THEM HERE.

by GameSix on Jun 1, 2007 11:25 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

They are who we thought they are. If you want to frown on 'em, frown on 'em! But they are who we thought they are!

Renel isn't much worse than those kids who butcher every single name. Cheer on Renel; Boo those childish hacks!

by the degenerate on Jun 1, 2007 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

hmm..maybe denny green is available to take sabes place?

by GameSix on Jun 1, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I'm pro-Sabean but you make excellent points. You sign an injury prone player, and you have little right to complain when he sits with something someone else would have played with. Forty year old players need lots of days off. You don't like it, don't sign 40 year old players.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 1, 2007 12:34 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I must say I do kind or respect Sabean's honesty in this matter. He didn't lie his teeth off so he'd look better publicly, he said what he actually felt. He didn't really want to trade Mando, but was willing to make a concession when the fans and media were howling for blood.

by ololo3 on Jun 1, 2007 1:10 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I heard what he said. We're in charge. Us, and KNBR, and maybe the Comicle. And if that's the case, I think our decision to dump Boonitez is one of the better personnel decisions made in the past few years (although not as good as moving him earlier in the season). I wish we would have known sooner, so we could have kept Brian Dallimore around and run off Cody Ransom, given Barry Zito some ownership interest instead of saddling the team with debt for the next decade, and spent less time signing 35+ year old free agents and more time hoarding draft picks.

But if we are the world, let's start giving. It's true we make a better day, just the Lunatic Fringe.

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Jun 1, 2007 7:28 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I don't really feel like reading all of the posts but if anyone is to blame for the team's lackluster performance its BRIAN SABEAN HIMSELF. He's the one that put this ENTIRE team, beside barry(which was a gift) together. Its not an accident that the average age of the starters at the begging of the year was 35.25 and we're inching towards last. OLD TEAMS DONT WIN. He got lucky in 2002 but the differences were that after '03 we never had the best power-hitting shortstop and we never had the best power-hitting second basemen. He doesn't know any other way though, he developed his system from the Yankees, and look what they do, they throw EVEN MORE money at (sure better) players that are big names and big bats. Brian Sabean, Giants nation wants you out too

*If you Lince him, he will come*

by smirnoff on Jun 1, 2007 9:23 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

and his replacement would be?? Because we all know there's dozens of GM's out there just looking for a job that are better than Sabean. Please tell me who is out there with a proven track record that's looking for work?? My biggest fear would be that a new GM comes in here and starts to deal off all the young pitching for some hitters that turn out to be not so good. It's bad enough that we are haunted by guys like Nathan and Accardo now, imagine if there were a dozen or so of these mistakes around. I think Sabean is finally on the right track now, and firing him would be a mistake. Like I said before, what do you think of those nine GM's that allowed Tim Lincecum to fall to the Giants?? You want one of them calling the shots for us next year??

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 2, 2007 7:52 AM PDT reply actions

We got lucky

Like I said before, what do you think of those nine GM's that allowed Tim Lincecum to fall to the Giants?? You want one of them calling the shots for us next year??

Doubt SF would have had the stones to draft Lincecum if they had one of the top picks. The reason he fell to #10 was because of his small stature for a MLB. Once again SF has the #10 pick and am hoping another star player drops into the hands of the Giants.

by wilriv21 on Jun 2, 2007 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

There are a ton of guys out there - I agree that there will be a nervous couple of months while we hope we don't end up with a Jim Bowden but that is no reason to stick with a known bad quantity.

And we don't need a GM with "proven experience" - that route hasn't served us well with players lately. We could take somebody's assistant GM or somebody from elsewhere in the front office, if new GMs didn't come from somewhere they'd all be dead by now.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 2, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Firing a guy -- one of your top guys, even -- without a plan for replacement is just a recipe for disaster. It smacks of desperation. It's kind of like, I dunno, what Sabean did with Benitez...

Adopting Dave Roberts since 2007

by hometownboy on Jun 2, 2007 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I can't say I'm thrilled with Sabean or would be heartbroken to see him leave, but we could easily do worse. There's a lot of 20-20 hindsight in the critiques and folks seem awfully reluctant to give him credit for some of his recent successes. Benjie Molina is working out far better than I expected. I thought Omar was finished and didn't like that signing, but I was wrong. Some of these posts mention Aardsma as a loss -- no way. Finley wasn't good but he was misused -- getting anything for Alfonzo at that stage was amazing. Most of us thought the Minnesota trade was a good risk at the time (and the Giants correctly identified Liriano as too fragile to last). And a lot of us thought the Hillenbrand trade might be a steal based on Toronto's desire to move him at any cost. The only two big moves I can honestly say I saw as mistakes at the time were not snagging Vlad and signing Benitez (I thought he would do better than he did but knew from watching the Mets he could never deal with real pressure).

by NearestNorwich on Jun 2, 2007 9:48 AM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

How was Aardsma not a loss? Does anybody hear like LaSteve Klawkins?

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jun 2, 2007 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

To be fair, none of those guys would have a major impact on this team.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 2, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

20/20 hindsight? not really

in regards to the trade that changed almost everything about this org...everyone stated that the trade only worked if aj was signed to a long term...when he opted for arbitration, the deal was doomed...he never wanted to be here.

aardsma was mishandled by the org from almost day one, and using him and williams to get a headcase as setup was pure idiocy and knee jerk gm'ing to say the least.

you were one of the few that thought trading for hildebrant meant anything except trading out relievers.

but sabean's mishandling of the team, goes all the way back to 02, when in a salary dump, he gets rid of ortiz, and allows himself and the team to be raped by the atl, who very infrequently trade pitching talent that they know will benefit them.

its not 20/20 hindsight to see that instead of accepting the teams needs and the need to rebuild, he has continued on this path of "win now" with teams that couldnt win back then....and when the deadline comes, is either inable, or unwilling to dump vets for impact prospects.

so now, darth sabean finds himself between a rock and a hard place.

the team needs 1-2 bats, but the only people the other teams want are from our sp...specifically, noah....

sanchez would have been a good bet for trade bait, and still might be...but the org has messed with him too, so it will take a team willing to rework with the kid to make that deal happen.

and while i am happy that for now, lewis, ort and frandsen are here and contributing, none of them can be considered true impact position players...so we are going on 11 years of the sabean tenure without 1....count em....1 impact position player developed, and that is unnaceptable...

by bacci40 on Jun 2, 2007 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

I must be missing something with David Aardsma. I closely follow ex-Giants, and this guy hasn't done a thing. He was hit hard with the Giants, hit hard with the Cubs, and he's being hit hard with the White Sox. What am I supposed to be missing?? His incredible consistency?? Sometimes you get lost in the minor stats and miss the most important ones. He throws hard, which lots of fans like, he strikes out alot of guys, which fans like, but he simply gives up too many runs, which kind of bothers me as a fan.

Hate to be the Messenger of bad news, but strike three, you're out!!

by rxmeister on Jun 2, 2007 1:07 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Enjoy the game more, enjoy the game.

by Rude thoughtless little pig on Jun 2, 2007 1:17 PM PDT reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Remeber one thing: Sabean has relationships with other GMs and needs to keep them as open and "trusting" as possible. No doubt he told Florida that Mando is GREAT and just needs a change of scene and it's quite possible that his public defense of him is to make himself look like a stand-up guy--"he really believes what he told Florida" (wink). An acting job by a skillful GM. As for his comments about players not showing up, he MUST be sick of dealing with Bonds, who is a consumate piece of shit as a human being and thus pretty hard to stomach when he's hit one jack in the past month, then says he's too tired to play. Or hustle.

I'd just like to see the Giants do some Billy Beane homework and stop being so old school in their approach to the game and assembling a team. Oh, well...

by mollythemoose on Jun 2, 2007 6:58 PM PDT reply actions

Molly, I'll do the gentlemanly thing

and stand right here between you and the steel sheet of javelins, bolo knives, and bandsaw machines that may soon bear down upon you because of your feelings toward Barry.

I don't care if you are a moose, and can fend off the snarling wolves and nipping coyotes of outrageous fortune. You have earned protection from bloodthirsty Bonds zealots, the kind who would seek to affix another taxidermist's head to the gameroom wall.

That's my motivation. That, and the unusual insight you showed high in your post about GM posturing. That, and that, plus your Vietnam analogy from another thread -- which was a pretty darn good one.

by Moggeee on Jun 2, 2007 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: read between the lines...sabean wants out

Given that Bonds is hitting .273/.495/.594 (before today), and hasn't collapsed from a knee injury, and is playing more than he did last year, I am pretty sure that Sabean is pretty happy about Bonds. Plus, Bonds's teammates like him.

Otherwise, good points.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 2, 2007 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions