Hard luck Cain
I am not a major stat genius, merely a novice amateur with a significant interest in them. Someone more experienced than me should do some analysis on the ineptitude of the bullpen as well as the offense to support Matt Cain in his starts this year. He currently owns a 3.23 ERA, but the Giants are 2-8 in his starts! How can this be possible!?
So here is my amateur analysis of his starts so far, highlighting his performance, bullpen ERA and team run support (although I am not sure exactly how this one is calculated).
Cain
IP 64 ER 23 Hits 45 ERA 3.23
Bullpen (in his starts)
IP 23 ER 18 Hits 28 ERA 7.04
Run Support (I calculated as runs scored through the last inning that he was in the game)
2.9 runs per game
In those 3 categories there are also obvious outliers. Cain's start vs the Phillies where he lasted only 3 innings yielding 7 runs and 8 hits also is an outlier for the bullpen as it pitched 6 innings and only allowed 2 runs. The obvious outlier for the offense is the 15-3 drubbing of the Rockies where they scored 9 runs during his 6 innings of work. Taking those into account the numbers turn into this:
Cain
61 IP 16 ER 37 Hits ERA 2.36 (Team record still only 2-7 with these numbers!)
Bullpen
17 IP 16 ER 23 Hits ERA 8.47
Run Support: 20 runs in 9 starts or 2.22 runs per game
Someone more experienced could probably clean up these stats and make them more accurate and detailed, but I assume you all get the message. Even though sample size is fairly limited, we are almost 1/3 of the way through the season. Gallup polls and preliminary election projections are based on a smaller sample size than that. Either Cain is going to get victimized my incredible bad luck the whole entire season, or the entire team expects him to throw a complete game shutout every time out there so they are unprepared to score more than 1 run on offense and to enter the game from the bullpen if he cant last all 9 innings.
I would be very upset right now if I were Matt, especially with all the hubbub about Lincecum the newest phenom. Wasnt it just a month ago we were touting Cain as a Cy Young candidate for years to come and debating whether he or King Felix was better? Now he's almost forgotten. Poor Matty!
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35 comments
Comments
Re: Hard luck Cain
by Natto on May 26, 2007 1:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bright Side
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 6:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
by Lyle on May 26, 2007 8:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
Something seems off, however, as ESPN reports Cain's run support to be 4.92. They count the runs on a per-inning basis while Cain is the pitcher of record rather than a per-start basis, but still.
by Bhaakon on May 26, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
by rxmeister on May 26, 2007 8:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
by NearestNorwich on May 26, 2007 10:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you want something done right you got to do it
by wilriv21 on May 26, 2007 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not so unlucky
by MC on May 26, 2007 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
BABIP
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: BABIP
The one thing that's really hard to explain is how he flip flops home vs. road. In prior years, he was much better at home than on the road, and his numbers this year are flipped.
by MC on May 26, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: BABIP
As for the home-road thing, I think you answered your own question. If 300+ IP is a small enough sample size to claim it to be lucky, why can't the home-road spilts be subject to the same random luck? Personally, I think that is the most likely answer.
by English Professor on May 26, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing?
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Nothing?
There just isn't any compelling evidence to suggest that he will keep up a .242 BABIP. Last year he was at .279, and that is low. His career BABIP numbers have been helped by the crazy .166 he had in 46.1 IP in 2005, but he was at .282 in hitter-happy Fresno too, and his defense couldn't have been that good.
Cain is hard to hit. I totally agree that he is likely to put up low BABIP numbers. Being a flyball pitcher in AT&T helps too, because he is going to get extra outs on balls that would be HR in other parks. A low BABIP is one thing - .242 is another.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Nothing?
by MC on May 26, 2007 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Possible
I think Cain's BABIP will probably rise just a bit now that he is relying more on the two seamer. I think we saw it last night with a couple of seeing eye groundball basehits. Thing is, adding in the two seamer will make him a better pitcher, so who cares about his BABIP?
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One More Thing....
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One More Thing....
While the final resting place of balls in play undoubtedly follows a Gaussian distribution, pitchers have the ability to make these locations cluster. The better the pitcher, the smaller the size or range of the cluster. The smaller the cluster, the greater chance a fielder can be in position to field the ball.
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right On Brother!
by giantsrainman on May 26, 2007 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bigots?
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: One More Thing....
It makes sense that pitchers would have some control over where the ball goes. That has been why pitching coaches have taught "pitching to contact" for years and years and years. It makes sense especially that pitchers are more likely to induce favorable contact when they have a favorable count and are able to make guys chase pitches.
Still, there are few guys who have shown a repeatable, consistent skill for keeping their BABIP allowed numbers amazingly low. Maybe, just maybe, Cain has been completely responsible for his low BABIP numbers. Maybe, just maybe, Pedro Martinez was responsible for his .253 BABIP against in 2000. If so, though, why did Pedro Martinez, one of the greatest pitchers ever, have a .344 BABIP in 1999 and .284 in 1998 - all of which were excellent pitching years for him?
There is a big difference between Voros saying "pitchers have very little, if any, control over where the batted ball goes" and saying "guys have only a limited ability to determine whether a batted ball will become a hit." There are rockets and bleeders, and many rockets will be caught while bleeders squeak through for a hit.
As I said, I do think Cain has shown an ability to have a lower BABIP. The sample size isn't big enough for me to say with any certainty where his BABIP numbers will settle, and even with great, great pitchers there is a lot of variation. Zito is inarguably good at controlling BABIP, and we have 6 full years and 2 partial years as evidence. His career BABIP is .268. That is awesome.
But even Zito has big fluctuations: .248 in 2003, .300 in 2004, .252 in 2005. There are going to be variables for which we can control, such as who played defense behind him - for example, he had Tejada at SS in 2003 and Crosby in 2004, and different OFers in different years. We can also look at where those balls went - for example, he had a 14.8% IFFB% in 2004 and 16.5% in 2005 (that helped).
BABIP helps us in certain ways. We can look at a guy who has really outperformed his career norms and see that he has a abnormally low BABIP, and usually that regresses. Some guys are just going to be luckier than normal. Remember, BABIP isn't very predictable. Even a guy with consistently low BABIP numbers like Zito can throw out a .300, while someone with normal BABIP numbers like Johan Santana (.287 career) can have a outlier like his .259 2004.
There are a lot of things at work here. BABIP only means so much, because the number depends on the defense behind the pitcher, what kind of balls in play the pitcher is getting, etc. ERA, adjusted for park and league, is a much much better predictor of performance.
BABIP usually is useful, though, when you see an extraordinarily low BABIP number like Cain has right now. It is very, very unlikely, from all the information we have, that his BABIP will stay that low. Even if Cain has a lot of control over where the ball goes, he doesn't have control over where the batter swings, how the batter swings, etc, and neither Zito nor Greg Maddux nor Roger Clemens nor Pedro Martinez nor Johan Santana nor Randy Johnson, in their very best years, has had a .242 BABIP for a full season.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luck vs Skill vs Health
Take a guy like Derek Lowe, for example. He's a guy who has large fluctuations in his effectiveness that some might attribute wholly to variations in "luck" Undoubtedly, there are small perturbations in Derek Lowe's "luck." After all, he is an extreme groundball pitcher and more of those groundballs are going to get through the infield on some days than others. Basically, though, if Derek Lowe keeps the ball on the ground, he's going to do OK. The real perturbations come when he doesn't get the groundballs. That has more to do with mechanical issues, health, and whether he's banging the TV reporter who's interviewing him in the locker room than "luck."
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Luck vs Skill vs Health
I think that is true, to an extent, but I argued that CBW's mechanics breakdowns would help us determine why a guy is slumping/performing poorly. I also brought up nagging injuries, the kind that don't put guys on the DL and aren't necessarily reported, as a cause of performance fluctuations. Those injuries also could cause mechanics problems. I made that exact argument - that we can't necessarily just throw our hands up and say luck is the cause just because we don't have enough information to determine the cause. Guys like CBW are helping us get that information.
That said, there is still a lot of luck involved. Call it luck, randomness, whatever you like. There are just too many times when a guy makes a "perfect" pitch and the batter beats him. What is a "perfect" pitch? One that gets the out? We can always go back after-the-fact and determine who had a good game. But that "perfect" pitch could be taken, could be swung at and weakly grounded to SS, could be poked into RF, could be hit for a HR. Conversely, Mando's hanging splitter could be hammered into the Cove or swung at and missed. The pitcher can only do so much, because he can't control what the batter does.
Information on injuries and mechanics could help us realize why a pitcher is hanging breaking pitches or losing FB velocity. It won't help us determine what a batter is going to do on any one pitch. We hear a lot about "confidence," as in "he was pitching with confidence." What the hell does that mean? He was able to throw all of his pitches? He wasn't afraid to throw to certain locations? Uh.. ok? A lot of confident pitchers have given up HRs on "great" pitches.
Guys just aren't perfect in their abilities. Some pitches will just slip a little. Some batters will have a great swing and still just miss hitting one out. Such events are random, unpredictable. Even when the events are dependent on the skill of the fielders, there is still luck involved. Batter hits a soft liner over the second baseman, who jumps - skill? Not so far as the batter and pitcher are concerned, whether the 2Bman jumps and catches it or mistimes his jump and misses it. The pitcher can't control whether that ball was hit six inches lower or six inches higher.
There are too many things outside the control of the pitcher and batter, even on a player's best day. That's luck. It isn't nearly so important as skill, but it plays a big part.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 27, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Problem
by DrBGiantsfan on May 27, 2007 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: No Problem
by sharksrog on May 28, 2007 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough....
There is actually a very simple explanation for Cain's stats. This gets back to my earlier "snarky" comment about seeing him pitch. He has damn good stuff!! If you've seen the guy pitch game in and game out with mostly similar results, you know that what you are seeing is not "luck." The kid has damn good stuff!!!
by DrBGiantsfan on May 28, 2007 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Did My Job?
by DrBGiantsfan on May 27, 2007 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I Did My Job?
Considering he can't throw a breaking ball that doesn't hang, he is probably lucky not to have done worse, but his FIP is pretty much in line with his ERA.
His K rate is much better this year, and he is much better this year than he has been the last two years. He is giving up line drives at the same rate he did in 2004, actually, but he was getting a lot more IF popups then.
He just looks terrible out there. That said, if he didn't walk so many guys, he probably wouldn't be that bad. Also, there are things that don't show up in those stats, as when the runners just take off because he doesn't hold them on. Still, he hasn't been that bad. People just want more out of their closer, with good reason. Mando doesn't make the minimum.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 27, 2007 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain?
by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way he keeps it by .227
by awesomer on May 26, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: No way he keeps it by .227
Small sample size caveats apply, but his K rate is down and his BB rate is up this year. If those reverse and start to look more like last year, then we won't have to worry when his BABIP number regresses.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: No way he keeps it by .227
by sharksrog on May 28, 2007 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
The good news is that luck never lasts. He's gotten poor run support and bullpen failures out of proportion to what you'd expect from our spotty offense and inconsistent bullpen, and that will even out over time.
The other good thing is that Cain is already going deeper into games. He averaged just over 6 innings a start last year; so far this year it's over 6 1/3.
by EliminateMe on May 26, 2007 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
by rxmeister on May 26, 2007 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hard luck Cain
Mark is right that Tim has been taken off the hook a couple of times by the Giants hitters. But as for the results of his pitching itself, his luck hasn't been particularly good.
As good as his ERA is, his pitching has actually been even better. Tim's OPS is even lower than Matt Cain's, and to be honest, many of the hits off Tim haven't been struck particularly well.
As the Giants defense better learns how to position itself behind Tim, some of those scratch hits will likely turn into outs.
by sharksrog on May 27, 2007 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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