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Hard luck Cain

I am not a major stat genius, merely a novice amateur with a significant interest in them. Someone more experienced than me should do some analysis on the ineptitude of the bullpen as well as the offense to support Matt Cain in his starts this year. He currently owns a 3.23 ERA, but the Giants are 2-8 in his starts! How can this be possible!?

So here is my amateur analysis of his starts so far, highlighting his performance, bullpen ERA and team run support (although I am not sure exactly how this one is calculated).

Cain
IP 64 ER 23 Hits 45 ERA 3.23

Bullpen (in his starts)
IP 23 ER 18 Hits 28 ERA 7.04

Run Support (I calculated as runs scored through the last inning that he was in the game)
2.9 runs per game

In those 3 categories there are also obvious outliers. Cain's start vs the Phillies where he lasted only 3 innings yielding 7 runs and 8 hits also is an outlier for the bullpen as it pitched 6 innings and only allowed 2 runs. The obvious outlier for the offense is the 15-3 drubbing of the Rockies where they scored 9 runs during his 6 innings of work. Taking those into account the numbers turn into this:

Cain
61 IP 16 ER 37 Hits ERA 2.36 (Team record still only 2-7 with these numbers!)

Bullpen
17 IP 16 ER 23 Hits ERA 8.47

Run Support: 20 runs in 9 starts or 2.22 runs per game

Someone more experienced could probably clean up these stats and make them more accurate and detailed, but I assume you all get the message. Even though sample size is fairly limited, we are almost 1/3 of the way through the season. Gallup polls and preliminary election projections are based on a smaller sample size than that. Either Cain is going to get victimized my incredible bad luck the whole entire season, or the entire team expects him to throw a complete game shutout every time out there so they are unprepared to score more than 1 run on offense and to enter the game from the bullpen if he cant last all 9 innings.

I would be very upset right now if I were Matt, especially with all the hubbub about Lincecum the newest phenom. Wasnt it just a month ago we were touting Cain as a Cy Young candidate for years to come and debating whether he or King Felix was better? Now he's almost forgotten. Poor Matty!

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Hard luck Cain
It really infuriates me that the Giants somehow fail to win when Cain consistently pitches his tail off. Not only would Cain have a few more wins, the team itself would have a few more wins as well. We're squandering all these great opportunities, and I know it'll come back to haunt us later.
Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 26, 2007 1:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bright Side
The bright side is that while this is going on, Matt is growing by leaps and bounds as a pitcher.  The guy we saw last night is light years from the kid who came up less than two years ago.  He's added a very good two seam fastball to complement the already great 4 seamer.  He's gaining command of the breaking ball.  The changeup is coming along. He's a lot more confident out there.  The bulldog personality is still there.  The bad luck won't last forever.  

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 6:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
Good points, DrB. Does anyone know if there's a site that keeps records like run-support for pitchers?
Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on May 26, 2007 8:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
ESPN keeps it under "Expanded II" on their comparative stats page, but, oddly, not on the player pages.

Something seems off, however, as ESPN reports Cain's run support to be 4.92. They count the runs on a per-inning basis while Cain is the pitcher of record rather than a per-start basis, but still.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 26, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
I can think of two reasons to blame Cain and about a million why it's not his fault. The first one is kind of small when I say he's a lousy hitter and doesn't help himself like someone like Morris and Lowry tend to do. Hit a homerun for yourself, Matt!!  The other is that his pitch count continues to be way too high and if the bullpen is screwing up for him, it's up to him to work deeper into games and avoid their use. That being said, he's pitched great all season long and deserves much better. Your stats were great, especially exposing the team ERA when he leaves the game as over seven. Considering the overrall ERA of most of those guys is pretty good, it just tells you how bad Matt Cain's luck has been. Just that cheap hit by Spilbourgh last night that drove in the first run was all you had to know about Matt's luck this season. He threw nothing but perfect pitches to get ahead of him, and then the guy gets lucky and reaches for a pitch way outside and bloops it to right. His luck will turn around, I'm sure. He certainly seems to have the right attitude, I just hope he continues to bring that right attitude to the mound. When the bullpen lost that last game to the Rockies after he left after six with a 3-0 lead, I just loved the way he took the blame on himself for not pitching deeper into the game.
Armando Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 289 Armando says: "Trade Todd Helton to the Yankees before the start of this series"

by rxmeister on May 26, 2007 8:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
Even the bullpen seems to have bad luck when Cain pitches. Benitez shouldn't have said it but there was an element of truth in his statement -- if you come in and get groundballs, it's just a matter of luck whether they are at somebody.

by NearestNorwich on May 26, 2007 10:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If you want something done right you got to do it
yourself. Cain is a good pitcher. When he gets his PC down and can go deeper into games he will have better control of his own fate. Cainer throws too many pitches, is prone to wildness and this limits his IP. If/when he can command and control his pitches he will be a perennial All-Star and Cy Young candidate.

by wilriv21 on May 26, 2007 11:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not so unlucky
OK, Cain's been unlucky in terms of wins.  But he's also been lucky overall: His BABIP is .227, second best in the NL among starters behind Jason Marquis. Bad sign: Zito's third at .236, and Lowry's 10th at .256. I have trouble believing that this trend is due to SF's sterling defense, so I would expect an unpleasant regression to the norm for all three.

by MC on May 26, 2007 12:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

BABIP
How long does Cain need to maintain the low BABIP before it isn't luck anymore?  He's now had, what, 50+ big league games?  That's not a big enough sample size?  What would be big enough.  I suppose if you wait long enough, he might suffer an injury or lose his stuff for some other reason and you can say "i told you so."  By this time, we've had a big enough sample size to say with reasonable certaintly that it's not due to luck.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

by English Professor on May 26, 2007 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: BABIP
I'm a Giants fan and I want the guy to succeed, so I sincerely hope that I'm never in a position to say "I told you so." But it's fairly unusual for a pitcher to be significantly below league average for BABIP for multiple seasons.  On top of that, I don't see anything in Cain's pitching style to explain this without appeal to luck: There's not a very strong correlation between being an extreme flyball pitcher and good BABIP. So I fear that he has enjoyed 301 IP of pretty good luck. And even if he has some ability to keep BABIP low, he's still 50+ points below the league average this year, so I still expect a regression in the range of .030.

The one thing that's really hard to explain is how he flip flops home vs. road. In prior years, he was much better at home than on the road, and his numbers this year are flipped.

by MC on May 26, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: BABIP
I agree that he may be due for some regression, but I disagree that nothing in his pitching style acounts for him being a consistently low BABIP, and I also do see a correlation between his flyball rate and his low BABIP. I think the answer to both those questions is the little extra "hop" he has on the end of his four-seem fastball, which causes hitters to consistently get under it. Because of this, he gets a lot of pop ups and easy fly balls.

As for the home-road thing, I think you answered your own question. If 300+ IP is a small enough sample size to claim it to be lucky, why can't the home-road spilts be subject to the same random luck? Personally, I think that is the most likely answer.

by English Professor on May 26, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing?
If you don't see anything in Cain's pitching to explain the low BABIPs, then you either haven't seen him pitch very much or have no idea what you are looking at.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Nothing?
Then explain why instead of insulting him.

There just isn't any compelling evidence to suggest that he will keep up a .242 BABIP.    Last year he was at .279, and that is low.  His career BABIP numbers have been helped by the crazy .166 he had in 46.1 IP in 2005, but he was at .282 in hitter-happy Fresno too, and his defense couldn't have been that good.

Cain is hard to hit.  I totally agree that he is likely to put up low BABIP numbers.  Being a flyball pitcher in AT&T helps too, because he is going to get extra outs on balls that would be HR in other parks.  A low BABIP is one thing - .242 is another.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Nothing?
Thank you, North Side.  I've seen Cain pitch plenty but there simply aren't many pitchers who put up the kind of low BABIP he's been enjoying.  Like you, I'm willing to square the circle here: He has a modest ability to generate low BABIP (which is all any pitcher has, in my estimation) AND he's been lucky. Isn't that possible, Dr BS?

by MC on May 26, 2007 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not Possible
Cain had some bad luck last night when Spilboroughs poked that hit to RF.  Yes, pitchers and players can get lucky from game to game.  Cain has not been lucky for 50+ games.  If you've been paying attention, he has darn good stuff.  Sorry for getting a a bit "snarky" again, but whenever I see the words "BABIP" and "luck" used together is just drives me crazy.  No!  Cain has not been lucky for 50+ games!!  You can sniff at sample size, but that is by far a big enough sample size to virtually eliminate luck as an explanation.

I think Cain's BABIP will probably rise just a bit now that he is relying more on the two seamer.  I think we saw it last night with a couple of seeing eye groundball basehits.  Thing is, adding in the two seamer will make him a better pitcher, so who cares about his BABIP?

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One More Thing....
Isn't in patently unscientific to attribute things you can't explain to "luck?"  Man has long attributed things to "luck" or supernatural powers when he doesn't understand what's happening.  Why on earth, would "luck" be a better explanation for Cain's stats than repeated observations that he has exceptional stuff, and induces an unusually high number of popups and other easy to field hits over and over on a consistent basis?  Just because Cain falls outside the norm of your personal favorite stat is no reason to dismiss his performances as "luck."  Maybe that particular stat, like all stats, is not a perfect way to measure all pitchers?

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One More Thing....
BABIP is the central stat in a theory known as DIPS or Defense Independent Pitching Statistics.  DIPS is based on one major assumption, that once a pitched ball makes contact with the bat, where it ends up is a random event.  It is my understanding that even the most ardent DIPS enthusiasts no longer believe that central assumption.

While the final resting place of balls in play undoubtedly follows a Gaussian distribution, pitchers have the ability to make these locations cluster.  The better the pitcher, the smaller the size or range of the cluster.  The smaller the cluster, the greater chance a fielder can be in position to field the ball.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right On Brother!
Keep preaching the truth to these DIPS/BABIP bigots and maybe someday they will see the light.

by giantsrainman on May 26, 2007 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bigots?
I thought we were trying to get away from name calling.  I wouldn't call them bigots.  DIPS and BABIP, like any other stats have their place.  They are not the all-encompassing explanation for what happens on the field that some people make them out to be.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: One More Thing....
You are absolutely correct in saying that the people studying this have retreated from what Voros McCracken originally put forward as DIPS.

It makes sense that pitchers would have some control over where the ball goes.  That has been why pitching coaches have taught "pitching to contact" for years and years and years.  It makes sense especially that pitchers are more likely to induce favorable contact when they have a favorable count and are able to make guys chase pitches.

Still, there are few guys who have shown a repeatable, consistent skill for keeping their BABIP allowed numbers amazingly low.  Maybe, just maybe, Cain has been completely responsible for his low BABIP numbers.  Maybe, just maybe, Pedro Martinez was responsible for his .253 BABIP against in 2000.  If so, though, why did Pedro Martinez, one of the greatest pitchers ever, have a .344 BABIP in 1999 and .284 in 1998 - all of which were excellent pitching years for him?

There is a big difference between Voros saying "pitchers have very little, if any, control over where the batted ball goes" and saying "guys have only a limited ability to determine whether a batted ball will become a hit."  There are rockets and bleeders, and many rockets will be caught while bleeders squeak through for a hit.

As I said, I do think Cain has shown an ability to have a lower BABIP.  The sample size isn't big enough for me to say with any certainty where his BABIP numbers will settle, and even with great, great pitchers there is a lot of variation.  Zito is inarguably good at controlling BABIP, and we have 6 full years and 2 partial years as evidence.  His career BABIP is .268.  That is awesome.

But even Zito has big fluctuations:  .248 in 2003, .300 in 2004, .252 in 2005.  There are going to be variables for which we can control, such as who played defense behind him - for example, he had Tejada at SS in 2003 and Crosby in 2004, and different OFers in different years.  We can also look at where those balls went - for example, he had a 14.8% IFFB% in 2004 and 16.5% in 2005 (that helped).

BABIP helps us in certain ways.  We can look at a guy who has really outperformed his career norms and see that he has a abnormally low BABIP, and usually that regresses.  Some guys are just going to be luckier than normal.  Remember, BABIP isn't very predictable.  Even a guy with consistently low BABIP numbers like Zito can throw out a .300, while someone with normal BABIP numbers like Johan Santana (.287 career) can have a outlier like his .259 2004.

There are a lot of things at work here.  BABIP only means so much, because the number depends on the defense behind the pitcher, what kind of balls in play the pitcher is getting, etc.  ERA, adjusted for park and league, is a much much better predictor of performance.

BABIP usually is useful, though, when you see an extraordinarily low BABIP number like Cain has right now.  It is very, very unlikely, from all the information we have, that his BABIP will stay that low.  Even if Cain has a lot of control over where the ball goes, he doesn't have control over where the batter swings, how the batter swings, etc, and neither Zito nor Greg Maddux nor Roger Clemens nor Pedro Martinez nor Johan Santana nor Randy Johnson, in their very best years, has had a .242 BABIP for a full season.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Luck vs Skill vs Health
There are other explanations for those variations other than luck.  Players may fall into mechanical flaws that affect their control.  I believe that minor, nagging injuries are a much bigger part of the game than we realize.

Take a guy like Derek Lowe, for example.  He's a guy who has large fluctuations in his effectiveness that some might attribute wholly to variations in "luck"  Undoubtedly, there are small perturbations in Derek Lowe's "luck."  After all, he is an extreme groundball pitcher and more of those  groundballs are going to get through the infield on some days than others.  Basically, though, if Derek Lowe keeps the ball on the ground, he's going to do OK.  The real perturbations come when he doesn't get the groundballs.  That has more to do with mechanical issues, health, and whether he's banging the TV reporter who's interviewing him in the locker room than "luck."

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Luck vs Skill vs Health
We have had that argument on BTF with regard to ChadBradfordWannabe's mechanics breakdowns for pitchers.  The most ardent stats advocate (mgl) argues that streaks are unpredictable, with their beginning and end points impossible to determine beforehand, so what evidence do we have that CBW is at all correct about any of these things?  This is covered extensively in The Book, written by mgl (Mitchel Lichtman), TangoTiger (Tom Tango), and Andy Dolphin.  It's a great book, by the way.

I think that is true, to an extent, but I argued that CBW's mechanics breakdowns would help us determine why a guy is slumping/performing poorly.  I also brought up nagging injuries, the kind that don't put guys on the DL and aren't necessarily reported, as a cause of performance fluctuations.  Those injuries also could cause mechanics problems.  I made that exact argument - that we can't necessarily just throw our hands up and say luck is the cause just because we don't have enough information to determine the cause.  Guys like CBW are helping us get that information.

That said, there is still a lot of luck involved.  Call it luck, randomness, whatever you like.  There are just too many times when a guy makes a "perfect" pitch and the batter beats him.  What is a "perfect" pitch?  One that gets the out?  We can always go back after-the-fact and determine who had a good game.  But that "perfect" pitch could be taken, could be swung at and weakly grounded to SS, could be poked into RF, could be hit for a HR.  Conversely, Mando's hanging splitter could be hammered into the Cove or swung at and missed.  The pitcher can only do so much, because he can't control what the batter does.

Information on injuries and mechanics could help us realize why a pitcher is hanging breaking pitches or losing FB velocity.  It won't help us determine what a batter is going to do on any one pitch.  We hear a lot about "confidence," as in "he was pitching with confidence."  What the hell does that mean?  He was able to throw all of his pitches?  He wasn't afraid to throw to certain locations?  Uh.. ok?  A lot of confident pitchers have given up HRs on "great" pitches.

Guys just aren't perfect in their abilities.  Some pitches will just slip a little.  Some batters will have a great swing and still just miss hitting one out.  Such events are random, unpredictable.  Even when the events are dependent on the skill of the fielders, there is still luck involved.  Batter hits a soft liner over the second baseman, who jumps -  skill?  Not so far as the batter and pitcher are concerned, whether the 2Bman jumps and catches it or mistimes his jump and misses it.  The pitcher can't control whether that ball was hit six inches lower or six inches higher.

There are too many things outside the control of the pitcher and batter, even on a player's best day.  That's luck.  It isn't nearly so important as skill, but it plays a big part.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 27, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Problem
I have absolutely no problem with any of that if you are talking about what goes on in 1 game or maybe two.  If bad "luck" goes on for more than 2-3 games, it is much more likely that something else is going on such as a mechanical flaw or minor injury, or as in Derek Lowe's case, other distractions.  50+ games is not, not a small sample size!  I don't know what Matt Cain's BABIP is going to do in the future.  Like I said, he seems to be falling in love with the two seam fastball, so it may well go up and he may well be a better pitcher for it.  He also might lose his arm slot for awhile or he might suffer a minor injury that he tries to play through.  Whatever, the BABIP's he has put up so far are not due to luck!

by DrBGiantsfan on May 27, 2007 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No Problem
I think Matt Cain's low BABIP thus far has been part luck, part skill.

by sharksrog on May 28, 2007 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair Enough....
but after 50+ games, the luck part is small in comparison to the skill factor.

There is actually a very simple explanation for Cain's stats.  This gets back to my earlier "snarky" comment about seeing him pitch. He has damn good stuff!!  If you've seen the guy pitch game in and game out with mostly similar results, you know that what you are seeing is not "luck."  The kid has damn good stuff!!!

by DrBGiantsfan on May 28, 2007 5:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Did My Job?
As I was reading through your post, I couldn't help but think of Mando and his contention that he has been victimized by seeing eye groundballs and bad fielding.  Could it be that he was, in fact, doing his job?

by DrBGiantsfan on May 27, 2007 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I Did My Job?
He is maybe a bit unlucky.  His BABIP is .326, a bit high but not outlandishly so.  He also walks too many guys.

Considering he can't throw a breaking ball that doesn't hang, he is probably lucky not to have done worse, but his FIP is pretty much in line with his ERA.

His K rate is much better this year, and he is much better this year than he has been the last two years.  He is giving up line drives at the same rate he did in 2004, actually, but he was getting a lot more IF popups then.

He just looks terrible out there.  That said, if he didn't walk so many guys, he probably wouldn't be that bad.  Also, there are things that don't show up in those stats, as when the runners just take off because he doesn't hold them on.  Still, he hasn't been that bad.  People just want more out of their closer, with good reason.  Mando doesn't make the minimum.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 27, 2007 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Explain?
If you go back and read my original response the the BABIP/luck point, I did explain it and I don't think I included any "snarkiness."  I plead guilty to some exasperation in my followup response.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 26, 2007 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way he keeps it by .227
First, Fangraphs says its .242. That already is not gonna happen. Last year it was .279 for the season. This in of itself sounds a little low, but its reasonable for a good strikeout pitcher. .227/.242 in this day and age is not.

by awesomer on May 26, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No way he keeps it by .227
Yes.

Small sample size caveats apply, but his K rate is down and his BB rate is up this year.  If those reverse and start to look more like last year, then we won't have to worry when his BABIP number regresses.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 26, 2007 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No way he keeps it by .227
Matt is likely to see his BABIP, batting average against and home run rate regress.

by sharksrog on May 28, 2007 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
I don't think we have to worry about Cain being forgotten. Yeah, the Lincecum excitement may have overshadowed him for the moment but I haven't heard anyone here calling to trade him to Tampa or anything.

The good news is that luck never lasts. He's gotten poor run support and bullpen failures out of proportion to what you'd expect from our spotty offense and inconsistent bullpen, and that will even out over time.

The other good thing is that Cain is already going deeper into games. He averaged just over 6 innings a start last year; so far this year it's over 6 1/3.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 1.99 ERA

by EliminateMe on May 26, 2007 12:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
and the funny thing is that as unlucky as Matt has been, Lincecum has been the opposite. Although he has pitched great every time out except for his first start, he came out of his first three starts on the losing end, and didn't lose a single one of them. Twice the Giants tied it to get him off the hook, and the other time they had a big inning which not only took him off the hook but it got him a win. Not to mention the fact that the bullpen has held leads for him in his two victories.
Armando Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 289 Armando says: "It's Kevin Frandsen's fault I gave up RBI hits to Kaz Matsui and Matt Holliday"

by rxmeister on May 26, 2007 5:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hard luck Cain
I have been pretty sure for about nine months now that Tim Lincecum was better than Matt Cain.  Maybe it's been a little longer than that.

Mark is right that Tim has been taken off the hook a couple of times by the Giants hitters.  But as for the results of his pitching itself, his luck hasn't been particularly good.

As good as his ERA is, his pitching has actually been even better.  Tim's OPS is even lower than Matt Cain's, and to be honest, many of the hits off Tim haven't been struck particularly well.

As the Giants defense better learns how to position itself behind Tim, some of those scratch hits will likely turn into outs.

by sharksrog on May 27, 2007 4:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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