Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
These moves are pretty recent, but I'll do my best to explain my reasoning behind the judgements if I give them.
December 1st, 2006
Signed Ray Durham to a two-year contract worth $14.5 million
This is the kind of deal that you should sign veteran players to - short term, so even if injuries strike (and with Durham, that's almost more of a when than an if) you're not on the hook for too long. Moreover, Durham is more than just a placeholder, he's an offensive threat at a position that doesn't have many of them. He's old, but is coming off one of his better seasons with the bat and doesn't have any warning signs of decline. And lastly, he's not blocking anybody, despite some bizarre assertions that Frandsen is the better player.
Verdict: Nice little deal, one of Sabean's best since signing Durham in the first place.
December 2nd, 2006
Signed Dave Roberts to a three-year contract worth $18 million
This is going to be another one I get crap for, but I'll explain why I think the Roberts signing isn't as good as it looks on the surface. The length is a little longer than I'd like for a player with a bit of an injury history, especially one with so much value in his legs, but it's not a crippling type of contract. The problem is simple: allocation of resources. With Steve Finley out of the picture (mercifully) the team already had an above-average center fielder in Randy Winn. Compared to other center fielders, Winn was a well above-average hitter with at least average defense, move him to right and while his defense is even better in comparision he's also merely an average hitter. That isn't to say that Sabean didn't try to sign a right fielder, he offered Carlos Lee a much longer-term contract than he should have and we got lucky when he turned it down (for an equally bad deal). The problem was giving up there - there were other outfielders on the market. J.D. Drew's contract was a pretty good one (though he's off to a slow start), Jose Guillen is a better hitter than Roberts, Trot Nixon fills the big half of a platoon. There were other options.
Verdict: Even, good on money vs. talent, bad in that Roberts doesn't fit in the lineup very well and it's a three-year deal to an injury-prone player.
December 4th, 2006
Signed Rich Aurilia to a two-year contract worth $8 million
Aurilia and Klesko haven't been quite average together at first base, but there weren't really any appealing first basemen on the market so I suppose Sabean did the best he could. I actually like the Klesko signing better because it's for only one year, but we can assume he actually had some competition for Aurilia and $8 million isn't much.
Verdict: Good little deal.
Signed Pedro Feliz to a one-year contract worth $5.1 million
In 2006, Pedro Feliz posted a .237 EQA. No full-time third baseman was worse than that. Even looking at more "traditional" stats, Feliz hit .244/.281/.428 in a league where the average third baseman hit .282/.354/.472. It's not like that season was a fluke either, his OPS+ over the past three seasons had been 98, 87, 79. So, you re-sign a 32-year-old coming off a three-year decline, the worst full-time hitter at his position. Unbelievable. There's no excusing that. Frandsen would outhit that, easy.
Verdict: Bad. Again, re-signing the worst hitter at a position can't be a good deal regardless of the money involved.
December 6th, 2006
Signed Bengie Molina to a three-year contract worth $16 million
This is another good veteran signing - Molina is an above-average hitting catcher and even with his declining defense the money isn't so much that it would be crippling if he ended up a backup by the end of the deal or something. There weren't many catchers on the market either.
Verdict: Good. I don't like the long-term contract to a catcher with a weight problem but so far Molina has hit well and there's as much a chance he stays the good-stick no-defense asset that he is for the duration of the contract just as there's a chance he gets hurt.
Signed Steve Kline to a two-year contract worth $3.5 million.
Kline was coming off a two-year stretch where he put together this line: 4.63 RA, 5.5 K/9, 4.5 BB/9, 1.1 HR/9, 1.50 WHIP.
You're telling me there's nobody down on the farm or off the top of the garbage bin that could approximate that line? Kline's only real virtue at this point in his career is that he's been in the league for twelve years and he's left-handed. His performance has been even worse than could be expected so far: a WHIP over 2.00, but his bullpen spot hasn't been mentioned as being in jeopardy, for some reason. It's not like he's a LOOGY or anything either, over the last three years lefties have hit only a smidgen worse against him than righties.
Verdict: Bad - the money isn't much but Kline is an eminently replaceable quantity so it's basically money down the drain.
December 19th, 2006
Signed Ryan Klesko to a one-year contract worth $1.75 million
His power stroke may have disappeared but so far at least he's been able to get on base, and that's something. $1.75 million is barely more than a flyer, so it was a pretty low-risk move.
Verdict: Good minor deal, assuming Sabean was unable to find any adequate first sackers in a trade Klesko/Aurilia are a much better deal than, say, Sean Casey who I was terrified we'd try to get.
December 29th, 2006
Signed Barry Zito to a seven-year contract worth $126 million with a vesting option for an eighth year
Now, in most cases you'd say "oh, how can you judge a contract after only two months," but there's plenty of reasons we can see right now that this contract was bad. First of all, take a look at Zito's peripherals over the past three years (and now a month and a half into 2007):
2004: 6.9 K/9, 3.4 BB/9
2005: 6.7 K/9, 3.5 BB/9
2006: 6.1 K/9, 4.0 BB/9
2007: 5.0 K/9, 4.6 BB/9 (small sample size, but if apparently these last two months can validate the Morris/Winn signings I guess they can iNvalidate this one.)
Not even taking length into account it's pretty clear that the pitcher you are getting isn't exactly dominating. He eats up a ton of innings, sure, but three years of declining peripherals doesn't exactly scream "long-term contract." Which gets us to the length. Seven years (maybe EIGHT) for a pitcher is never a good idea. The risk is too high - even an exceptional pitcher (which Zito is not) is a huge risk over the course of seven years. Don't believe me? The largest contracts ever given to a pitcher before Zito were eight years $121 million to Mike Hampton, and seven years $105 million to Kevin Brown, and we all know how those turned out. The similarity runs beyond the financial, Mike Hampton is actually Zito's most similar pitcher through age 28 according to Baseball Reference.
To summarize a bit, because I know this one is going to get some discussion, I'm not saying Zito is a bad pitcher. He's better than he has been this year, but I don't see any way that this contract is going to go down as a good one. Sure, there's a chance he'll turn into Tom Glavine or Jamie Moyer and pitch forever, but when you're talking about $126 million you can't rely too much on wishcasting - the chances are not good that this will be a good contract.
Verdict: Bad, with a chance to be merely pretty damn bad and a chance to be one of the worst ever.
January 30th, 2007
Signed Barry Bonds to a one-year contract worth $15.8 million
It's hard to say anything about this - the Giants were going to re-sign Barry Bonds and they did. It's a one-year deal so the money isn't really a huge issue and the team frankly wasn't contending without Bonds so Sabean's hands were tied even if he hadn't wanted Bonds back. Even with his May tailspin, Barry has been one of, if not the, best hitter in the league, so it looks even better. The key to free agency, in my opinion, is the short-term contract. When you have young, homegrown players that's when you lock them up long-term, but free agency is almost always a market full of players past their primes (hitters peak around 29, pitchers possibly even sooner) so you're 9 times out of 10 going to pay for production you'll never get again.
Verdict: Good, inevitable contract.
April 1st, 2007
Signed Matt Cain to a four-year contract worth $9 million
Like the Lowry deal, this one is good, and a good precedent to set, but it wasn't the fleecing some seem to have interpreted it as. I don't think Cain left money on the table - he's basically forfeiting a few million in arbitration for the guarantee that, even if his arm falls off (STOP LETTING HIM THROW 110 PITCHES BOCHY) he'll be able to retire happily. I wouldn't have wanted to give him much more guaranteed money then we did, I don't think he left any on the table.
Verdict: Good deal, with the above explanation.
---
Sabean clocks in for this last off-season with a superfically impressive six good contracts to three bad ones, but that doesn't really tell the story. The good contracts were all nice little deals, but the bad contracts ranged from inexcusable (Feliz) to possibly payroll-crippling (Zito). In addition, Sabean again backloaded the contracts making it even harder for the team of the future to compete. Look at it this way, would you rather have these contracts:
Zito: $18 million (7 year commitment)
Kline: $3.5 million (2 year commitment)
Roberts: $6 million (3 year commitment)
Feliz: $5 million (1 year commitment)
or these ones:
Daisuke Matzusaka: $17 million (6 year commitment with the posting fee averaged in to the contract)
Akinori Iwamura: $4 million (3 year commitment, again with the posting fee averaged into the contract)
Trot Nixon: $3 million (1 year commitment)
Jayson Werth: $1 million (1 year commitment)
And just pocket the extra $7 million - or better yet use it in the amateur draft to make a play at any signability issues that drop? Or, even if you aren't feeling adventurous, just
Ted Lilly: $10 million (4 year commitment)
Jose Guillen: $5.5 million (1 year commitment)
Jeff Cirillo: $1.5 million (1 year commitment), play him or Frandsen as you desire
And use the extra $15 million a year elsewhere? I know I would certainly prefer the latter.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The problem is that his one big splash was pretty bad (and, of course, he tried to make a big splash with some other players ... Matthews, Pierre, Lee ... all of whom would have been terrible deals had they signed.)
I don't know if I'm just parroting you here, because it's late and I should be in bed, but I really do agree with your assessments. I think, in the end, Sabean did a lot of things right this offseason, but his desire to make that big signing kind of ruined the overall results. Sort of a case of putting public relations ahead of what actually makes sense for team (in both terms of money, years and talent.) It wouldn't have been as flashy if he'd signed Ted Lilly or whoever instead of Zito, but it probably would be better long-term for this franchise.
Of course, at this point, I doubt Sabean is really looking long-term anymore (I'd be surprised if he's still the Giants GM after this season is over.) The fans were all clamoring for a big signing all offseason and he gave it to them, satisfying them in the short-term. But in three or four years, I don't see any way that people will look back on the Barry Zito deal and see it as anything but a colossal PR mistake. Just my opinion, and if you disagree with me, you don't need to call me biased or crazy or whatever.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sometimes I actually wonder if the average fan notices that the Giants have been significantly below .500 the last two years. They're not the team of 2000-2004 that won 90+ games a year anymore... I mean, you keep hearing "they're contending!" but it feels like there's not much acknowledgement (in the media, I guess... or from the organization) that the Giants were 21 games below .500 (combined) the last two years.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think it's too early to judge Molina's deal. Most of the concerns about that contract are in the long term, and his hitting to date is sort of fluky (his consistently enormous platoon splits have reversed).
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Not the worst signing, but the Giants could have spent a lot less than $16 million for not much worse. Plus, Alfonzo's a fine back-up, so they weren't dying at this position.
Otherwise I agree with Jake. I thought it was Sabean's best off-season in several years until the Zito signing.
by GiantJim on May 21, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
A couple of points here:
First, corporations are seldom able to be run on cash only. They borrow for long-term expenditures, much as we borrow to buy our houses.
Second, the Giants have been prepaying their loan all along. Had they merely paid it off as scheduled, they would have had more money avaiable. Had they banked the money, they would have had enough for Matsuzaka.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Zito's peripherals
Zito's K, BBs, IP, K/9, BB/9 since 2003:
K BB IP K/9 BB/9
- 146, 88, 231.7, 5.6, 3.4
- 163, 81, 213.0, 6.4, 3.1
- 171, 89, 228.3, 6.7, 3.5
- 151, 99, 221.0, 5.7, 3.8
Where did you get those K/9 numbers from?
From BPro, Zito's top 10 most comparable players:
- Chuck Finley
- Wilson Alvarez
- Tom Glavine
- Jim Palmer
- Vinegar Mizell
- Chan Ho Park
- Steve Carlton
- Kevin Gross
- Darryl Kile
- Larry Dierker
Never mind
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
A few things I would like to mention:
Despite the reviews on 2004, the Giants performed well within Sabean's track record (91 wins). The offense even improved by 100 runs (even without Vlad). Much of that has to be attributed to Bonds stoopid season, but how much? Certainly not more than half and maybe much less.
If Sabean gets heat, so should upper brass and we can't really replace them. It seems that these are the working conditions for Brian:
Don't rebuild
Win while Barry's still good
Do it within our spending budget
Well I think Sabean did that pretty well until 2005 when the rent came due a little early.
It's speculating, but I have to think that after the 2002 series, Sabean started to receive more pressure from Magowan and Co. Before then, Brian seemed to have carte blanche on baseball ops within a specified budget. I got to think that has something to do with his performance.
A special note on the Zito singing. I think this move smacks of Magowan and Co. I think they like the superstar from a marketing standpoint. Their first move was to get Barry Bonds. In the twilight of Barry's career, it looks like they have made a move to find his replacement as the superstar of the team. Zito was signed from a marketing standpoint as much as for baseball reasons. Besides, when has Sabean ever, ever come close to signing a FA superstar. It's not his style.
I have been pleased with some of his draft moves in the past year plus. Even though Jake has given a deep review of major transactions at the top level, only a few have mentioned the draft. Lincecum, Sanchez, Villalona were all acquired during the years You analyze, Jake. Perhaps we could see a similar analysis of the drafts in this period (as if You have loads of time). But I would think, even with the picks dump in 2004, Sabean has some plusses in this area.
I am very much for front office stability. I watched the DooDooHeads spin the GM roulette wheel for a few years now, and I wouldn't say it's worked out for them. I am not necessarily championing for Sabean, but I am thinking of these things:
Considering results only, Sabean has performed well. I consider 2005/2006 to really be his down years and I attribute some of that to upper management. Even Jake gives him some credit for his 2006 actions (excluding Zito, but see above).
Who replaces Sabean? It had better be someone good. Different doesn't equal better.
Now this is a question I asked before - maybe a year or two ago. I have heard some mention Kim Ng in these threads, but that's about it.
So seriously, for all those that want Sabean to get lost, with whom do You replace him? I'd really be interested in knowing.
Thanks for listening kids. Remember, angels fly cause Ralph Barbieri says so.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by howtheyscored on May 20, 2007 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
But see, it's not that I'm stupid or that I don't understand accountability. Just that I'm a little underinformed. Learn something new, and so on.
In that case, alright. I can't really say it's not his fault.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
As for the draft, we've been excellent at developing pitching talent, to be sure, but I've always been under the impression that a lot of that is Dick Tidrow - the Lincecum pick in particular seemed to be something he had been championing. It would seem a little too forgiving to give Sabean a pass on some bad moves that he may not have been solely responsible with and then give him full credit for some draft moves that he also may have not been fully responsible for.
Even if he was being pushed by Magowan and Co. I'm not sure I'd forgive him entirely. It's possible to run a franchise well even with meddling owners (Cashman in the Yankees has done a pretty decent job combining free agents with homegrown players, and while he has the benefit of oodles of cash he's also kept Steinbrenner for doing anything rash for some time. On the other end of the spectrum you have Colleti/McCourt on the Dodgers and even if they have the benefit of Logan White gathering of prospects by the barrell that's still not the organizational template I want to use.)
Still, you raise some good points. I'm not exactly sure who I'd want replacing Sabean, but in my way of thinking you decide to get rid of him first and find a suitable replacement second. I wouldn't mind giving an inexperienced candidate like Ng a shot (GMs with experience have to come from somewhere), you never know when you might get a diamond in the rough like Billy Beane and a wild card is still better than a keeping the definite negative that you have.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
One question is the difference between early Sabean and late Sabean. Though some similarities have been noted, I think most have agreed that his performance was favorable before 2003.
Arguing ownership influence doesn't give the GM a pass, but it could help explain a performance change. Certainly it's speculation, but Peter started to mouth off in public about baseball ops around 2002. If anyone disagrees that ownership panicked after the world series and started to press, I would be happy to list instances that lead me to believe that there is some possible truth in it. Of course, it's all speculation.
You certainly are correct in stating that Dick Tidrow deserves a lot of credit for drafting. But when we are talking about Sabean's performance, I'm thinking we are talking about his management group as a whole. He doesn't make the bad moves all by himself.
Finally, I will have to politely disagree with Your method of replacement. I have an executive with a successful track record. His record of late has been sub-par, but I have to consider all the circumstances. If I am going to replace him, I want an improvement. I am not going to make the change unless I have multiple strong candidates from which to choose. That includes peeps who have yet to be a GM. If Sabean really sucked for the past ten years, it's a different story. But for now, don't fire until You feel confident You can get better.
To that end, I would still really love to hear more suggestions on GM replacements.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
There's no BBRef or BA page to peruse to find their vital stats or rank their tools, as it were. Anything anyone said here would be rank speculation even by internet message board standards.
Case in point, Kim Ng. Is here name consistantly dropped because she's a drafting guru, because she's an expert contract negotiator, or just because her status as the only notable female GM candidate grants her some name recognition? I'd like to say it's the first two, but since those kind of things never get reported on, I feel pretty safe saying it's #3.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Well...because I'm interested. Maybe others are as well.
True, an essential part of my post is that if we ditch Sabean, I want a better GM in replacement. But the general broadcast question is not to simply say, "Sabes rawks and who You gonna get to replace his awesomeness?" No, rather I'm thinking that there would be some really interesting opinions on the subject. While there is much less reported about potential MLB GM's as opposed to players, I contend that MCCers are not Your average group and have info and insights on who could be a good replacement for Brian. I myself, lack that info.
I do welcome rank speculation. On a site where peeps can regularly call the for the Feliz/Sanchez for Cabrera trade, I think we can rampantly speculate on GM's a bit.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sabean worked Cain, but nobody else
But contracts are not written in a vacuum. Comparisons are always used by smart agents. And my position is that a better agent would have asked both Matt and Brian:
- If Cain had the same value as Lowry, and
- If Cain had the same value as Lowry even though it was one year later -- and pitchers' salaries had skyrocketed in the interim.
Props to Sabean. I think it's the only deal he negotiated this offseason for under market value.
Another test case coming
Think Lincey's gonna get a mere $9 million on a four-year-deal starting in 2008?
Heh-Heh-Heh-Heh...Laugher!
Re: Sabean worked Cain, but nobody else
Frandsen vs Durham
Frandsen is ready to begin his major league career.
Second base is his best position.
He can be a good major league starter at a middle infield position.
He's a whole lot cheaper than Durham.
Frandsen will probably be more durable than Durham at this point in their careers.
Having said those things, if the money isn't an issue, or if it isn't going to be used for an upgrade at another position, then Durham is the better choice, by far.
Now, I was happy with the idea that Frandsen would be the backup IF at 3 positions as this would probably give him significant playing time and a chance to break in to major league ball. The moves that upset me were: 1. Signing both Feliz and Aurilia forcing Aurilia to 1B, and 2. Signing Klesko which moved Aurilia off first base for a lot of games making Aurlia the de-facto reserve IF. That left essentially no AB's for Frandsen.
i can't really argue that Frandsen is going to be more productive than any of those players this year, but I think he is part of our future and the future will never arrive if you don't give the kids a chance to play somewhere along the way. Those were classic Brian Sabean prospect blocking moves.
Durham's all right. It's really Kevin vs. Richie
Hooray.
With this as a scorecard, energetic Frandsen could hardly have less of an impact than the fading Aurilia as a backup or a frontline player.
It's not only looking like a prospect-blocking move, it appears to have all the features of a franchise-blocking move.
Re: Kevin vs. Omar??
I like Aurilia, and his jack was quite welcome
;-)
But I remember Richie looking good for about the first three weeks of the season and being a nonfactor for the next three.
I think he really can't play every day anymore, and it appears Omar may be reaching that point as well.
Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Playing Frandsen almost every day at third (or if the team insists on Aurilia, at least playing Frandsen every day against lefties) and backing up short and second would be a very good use for him, and pretty much the kind of use I see the team having for him throughout his career. They just have to figure that out.
Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Right
by DrBGiantsfan on May 20, 2007 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Right
Re: Right
Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Either you'll be right, or he'll be great. There's no downside!
Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Zito - pass
The Proof - Magowan distancing himself from his GM
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
cue stripes theme
by The Gene Hackman on May 21, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The chances of Barry's earning his $126 million contract are probably a bit better than our chances of gracefully getting out of Iraq.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Zito dollars just do not stop the Giants from having the dollars to pay two premier bats once Bonds is gone. The Bonds, Morris (trade), Benitez, Feliz, Klesko, and Sweeney money (even with the riases due the other signed players remaining) are more then enough to add two stud bats for 2008 and beyond. We may even be able to add a third if we trade Morris and his dollars for say the next Adrien Gonzalez.
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Oh, and what are you going to do about the closer?
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by Giant Fan in Singapore on May 21, 2007 2:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
You do have a point on the lack of enough true premium bats in next year's free agent class. But, this will be all we will be looking for. The rest of the lineup is already set with slightly above average (in agragate) bats. Molina(C), Durham(2B), Aurilia(1B/3B/SS?), Winn(CF/RF?), Roberts(CF/LF?), and one of Lewis(RF), Ortmeier(RF), Schierholtz(RF) or Frandsen(3B/SS). It is most likely that we will only be able to sign one of the needed premium bats and will have to trade for the other. That is where a Morris plus prospects trade comes in. This trade might even happen this year!
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 2:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Unless you are just saying how easy it will be to put toghether yet another .500 team.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
(this adjusts for RS/RA true, RS/RA projected from component EQA and RS/RA adjusted for strength of schedule.
Our simulated season records are:
80.6-81.4 (raw)
77.5-84.5 (ELO)
79.8-82.2 (PECOTA)
Now, one can argue about the accuracy of these simulations and what they account for - BUT you brought up the projects, and the projections don't jibe with what you posted.
Without looking in detail of RS/RA it may be true that the offense is projected to improve. If so, the defense (pitching) is expected to regress.
The wild card is Lincecum. But I don't quite give him credit for being enough to bump us from mediocre -> good, especially if you account for the inevitable Morris decline.
All this being said - sure, everything could bounce our way the rest of the year and we make the playoffs. But "on paper" this is a .500 team playing .500 ball.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
BlueJays - Morris and Feliz for Troy Glaus and a 40 man roster scrub.
Orioles - Morris and Vizquel for Miguel Tejada and a 40 man roster scrub.
Mariners - Morris and Feliz for Richie Sexton and a 40 man roster scrub.
Twins - Morris, Blackley, and the Twins choice of one of Lewis, Ortmeier or Schierholtz for Tori Hunter Ramon Ortiz and a 40 man roster scrub.
Braves - Morris, Blackley, and the Braves choice of one of Lewis, Ortmeier or Schierholtz for Andrew Jones, Mark Redman, and a 40 man roster scrub.
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
...
......
..
..
Let me just share what Tejada at the deadline commanded last year (yeah last year bla bla this hasn't changed much):
It appears that the LA Angels of Anaheim had also offered Chone Figgins, Ervin Santana and Howie Kendrick for Miguel Tejada and a prospect.
The Orioles discussed sending Tejada to Houston for Roy Oswalt, Morgan Ensberg and Adam Everett earlier this week.
by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I just saw some Blue Jays fan trade proposals for Glaus today... and they were more along the lines of Ervin Santana or Andy LaRoche for Glaus. And I'm guessing if Glaus is traded, it'll be for someone like that, and not for Morris/Feliz.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
- Arod, Bonds, and Abreu are the only possible FA's with a career OPS of .900 or better, though Dunn is close with .894. Jones is at .847. I'm discounting Sheffield.
- I finally figured out what was wrong with you're original scenario. Durham, Roberts, Aurilia and Molina are only good for about 130 starts a season. Maybe they average out to average when they're all in the lineup, but they're rarely all in the lineup.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yeah, you are right by career OPS. But, I am counting Jason Giambi, Andruw Jones, Richie Sexton, Miguel Tajada, Troy Glaus, and Tori Hunter as close enough in that I am expecting something close to .900 (if not above) from them this year and next.
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Your arguments are so simplistic. You are probably right that most of the Giants position players are at least average, given that the averages include pitchers and reserves.
How many runs do you think the Giants will score? My preseason prediction was for about 750 runs. Entering play tonight, they were on pace to score 729. So even MY prediction has thus far been too high. I'll bet yours is WAY too high.
If it isn't, you don't truly think they will be an above-average offensive team.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
When one puts that quintet together, they have been below average this season -- even with fine years from Molina and Winn.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Look at it this way, with Barry Bonds hitting like the Bonds of old this team still appears to be about a .500 team. What two players are we going to get who will both replace Bonds production (you need more than one player for that alone) and make the difference that moves us from a .500 team to a playoff-bound team?
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
In any type of business, decisions should be made to provide more benefit than cost. In the case of the Barry Zito signing, that very likely won't be the case. Ergo, the decision -- not a small one -- will likely hurt the franchise. Resources aren't unlimited.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Runaway Inflation makes Zito a steal
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Now that Tim Lincecum has been called up, how do you like those minor leagues? :)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Zito's peripherals aren't stunning, to be sure. But he isn't a guy who is likely to fall off a cliff. He is young enough that he isn't likely to lose a ton of FB speed - he already has probably the slowest FB this side of Jamie Moyer, and FB speed has little to do with his success anyway. His FB isn't likely to get much slower, so why would his K rate drop?
Zito seems like a guy who will continue to deliver like he has in the past. By the time he really declines, his contract will be middle-of-the-market anyway. You can point to last year being worse than the year before, but his year last year was a lot like his 2004. That's Zito - somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4 WHIP, depending on his hit rate, a 105-115 ERA+, and 220 IP or so.
That's 220 solid IP that Sabean doesn't have to worry about. Zito has no injury history, no mechanics that would suggest injury, and no blazing FB that is likely to cause injury. Just pencil him in and worry about the other 1230 IP you need.
He isn't great, but he is good, and I don't see him getting much worse. Unlike many high-dollar contracts (like Carlos Lee's), there isn't a ton of risk here. It is a ton of money, but it isn't likely to go right down the toilet in two years.
The biggest problem I have with it is that it is money that could have been used for someone better next year or the year after. But this is the Giants... contend now so long as Bonds can still play. They spend a bunch of money every year - but why not just spend huge money one or two years, go veteran-nuts, make a serious WS run, and just cut payroll after Bonds retires?
I think a lot of people are right in saying that Sabean can't be blamed for all of the moves that have Magowan & Co written all over them.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 4:15 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
However, in the context of a team that has young pitching out the arse and no lineup to speak of (or much hitting in the minors to speak of), and is about to lose it's long time (and only) stud middle of the order bat to retirement, well, that dog won't hunt.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I'm not trying to call you out, because I don't like to cause trouble on the boards, but considering the tiff that's been going on with allfrank, it seems a bit messed. If somebody comes in with moderately supported claims and ridicule they get stats and logic in their face, but if somebody comes with stats and logic they get neither back?
I know you don't like the Zito signing, but if you were driven to disagree you could have at least addressed the points brought up.
Unless you and NSCEGF are having some kind of inside joke or being mutually playful with each other and I'm just being an idiot. That's the other scenario. In which case, well, this would have been a waste of everybody's time. Especially yours, and NSCEGF's, and mine.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Bhaakon makes a good point about the team needing bats. That is partially why I brought up Magowan & Co as being behind some of these decisions. I still don't think the Zito signing cripples the team, but it may not have happened in a market in which a real superstar hitter is available.
Thanks howtheyscored, thanks Jake... but really, Bhaakon and Sharksrog are good posters. There are plenty of others I can't say the same about, but meh... whatever.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2007 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think it was in part because Sharksrog has been such a good poster that I was bothered by his two responses to your post. The other part is that he's been one of the voices cutting down allfrank for not-backing-up-his-arguments-and-using-ridicule-when-somebody-else-disagrees. It just seemed a little backward that he wouldn't disagree with you the same way he wants allfrank to disagree with him. It's kind of like "the allfrank defense," I guess.
But also, it's because he has been a good poster that I wasn't sure if I was missing some kind of joke or not. Like I said, I'm not here to stir trouble (others can do that just fine), but I did smell something a little funny and didn't want to watch it become a problem.
All these guys, though, allfrank, Bhaakon, Sharksrog, etc., they're all fine by me.
by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
. Brian Sabean ADMITTED he overpaid for Barry.
. Barry's peripherals have been headed rather steadily downhill since he won the MVP in 2002.
. The argument that Barry should be better in the NL for at least a year or two is somewhat offset by his actually having pitched BETTER against AL teams during the months of interleague play than against NL teams.
. Most of those who argue for Barry admit that they are concerned about the last three or four years of the contract.
. Barry has been a model of consistency in taking the ball, but he doesn't average a really high number of innings per outing. For instance, last season Jason Schmidt averaged a sixth of an inning per game MORE than did Barry.
. Barry has thrown more pitches over the past six years than anyone aside from Livan Hernandez. At some point that could put his super ability to take the ball in jeopardy, as his poor ERA's in both of the last two Septembers might indicate.
. The Giants gave Barry the biggest contract of any pitcher in history. That type of contract would seem to be designed to go to a great pitcher. Barry is merely a good pitcher at this point -- and one who has been declining for four years.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sabean may be right on track with Magowan, or he may just keep quiet and let the owner dictate certain things. I really don't know.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2007 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2007 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Due to his injury in 2005, they certainly didn't. Last season he came up short, as well. But overall I'm not sure one can say that the Giants have overpaid for Barry. To this point, he could be the player of the decade.
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
A note about Zito
The contract will look much, much worse in 2013, but there is a very good chance Zito won't be a Giant then.
If I remember right, Zito is very cheap this year and next, but his salary jumps up a lot in 2009.
Re: A note about Zito
by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: A note about Zito
Re: A note about Zito
Re: A note about Zito
Re: A note about Zito
I seriously doubt that the Giants will be trading Zito, though. The front office seems to be pretty deeply invested in having him be the new "face of the franchise" and - barring an unlikely ownership change - I don't think they'll cop to a mistake unless he seriously starts stinking it up. Which, for the reasons CEGF posted above, I think is kind of unlikely: I think he'll continue a slow, steady decline but I'd be very surprised if he suddenly fell off a cliff, performancewise.
Re: A note about Zito
The average payroll would have to explode up above 100M to make 126M for a league average innings eater look reasonable. Lets just hope that Zito pitches better than that.
Re: A note about Zito
Is Zito a risk? Sure. Less of a risk than most, I think. Now you might say that it isn't worth the risk for a longer contract when the pitcher is Zito-quality, but Hampton had put up a 121, 150, and 139 ERA+ the three years before the big contract. Hampton may not have had superb WHIPs for those years, but his ability to prevent runs was pretty certain at that point and he allowed very few HRs.
So he fell apart. It was a risk. You could just not sign any pitcher to a contract longer than 3 or 4 years. You are going to lose out on some FAs, but I wouldn't argue with that if you really want to minimize risk.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2007 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: A note about Zito
The biggest risk in Zito's contract isn't the money, it's the years, because he absolutely is declining as a pitcher and the older he gets, the more likely it is he'll be injured. On the other hand, at the end of the contract, he'll be in his mid-30's - not extremely old for a durable starter with (so far, at least) a pretty clean injury history. Long contracts are always a risk, but Zito's is less of a risk than a lot of other players.
We can hope Zito pitches better than a league-average innings-eater, but I think it's highly unlikely that he's going to perform at any higher level. His contract is always going to be bad, and I don't think I've said otherwise - but if the market price continues to go up for reliable (not great! just reliable!) starters, I don't think Zito's contract is going to look completely nuts in five years. Still not good, but not crazy-bad.
Re: A note about Zito
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by GiantJim on May 22, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sorry to anyone I offended here.

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