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Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)

These moves are pretty recent, but I'll do my best to explain my reasoning behind the judgements if I give them.

December 1st, 2006

Signed Ray Durham to a two-year contract worth $14.5 million

This is the kind of deal that you should sign veteran players to - short term, so even if injuries strike (and with Durham, that's almost more of a when than an if) you're not on the hook for too long. Moreover, Durham is more than just a placeholder, he's an offensive threat at a position that doesn't have many of them. He's old, but is coming off one of his better seasons with the bat and doesn't have any warning signs of decline. And lastly, he's not blocking anybody, despite some bizarre assertions that Frandsen is the better player.

Verdict: Nice little deal, one of Sabean's best since signing Durham in the first place.

December 2nd, 2006

Signed Dave Roberts to a three-year contract worth $18 million

This is going to be another one I get crap for, but I'll explain why I think the Roberts signing isn't as good as it looks on the surface. The length is a little longer than I'd like for a player with a bit of an injury history, especially one with so much value in his legs, but it's not a crippling type of contract. The problem is simple: allocation of resources. With Steve Finley out of the picture (mercifully) the team already had an above-average center fielder in Randy Winn. Compared to other center fielders, Winn was a well above-average hitter with at least average defense, move him to right and while his defense is even better in comparision he's also merely an average hitter. That isn't to say that Sabean didn't try to sign a right fielder, he offered Carlos Lee a much longer-term contract than he should have and we got lucky when he turned it down (for an equally bad deal). The problem was giving up there - there were other outfielders on the market. J.D. Drew's contract was a pretty good one (though he's off to a slow start), Jose Guillen is a better hitter than Roberts, Trot Nixon fills the big half of a platoon. There were other options.

Verdict: Even, good on money vs. talent, bad in that Roberts doesn't fit in the lineup very well and it's a three-year deal to an injury-prone player.

December 4th, 2006

Signed Rich Aurilia to a two-year contract worth $8 million

Aurilia and Klesko haven't been quite average together at first base, but there weren't really any appealing first basemen on the market so I suppose Sabean did the best he could. I actually like the Klesko signing better because it's for only one year, but we can assume he actually had some competition for Aurilia and $8 million isn't much.

Verdict: Good little deal.

Signed Pedro Feliz to a one-year contract worth $5.1 million

In 2006, Pedro Feliz posted a .237 EQA. No full-time third baseman was worse than that. Even looking at more "traditional" stats, Feliz hit .244/.281/.428 in a league where the average third baseman hit .282/.354/.472. It's not like that season was a fluke either, his OPS+ over the past three seasons had been 98, 87, 79. So, you re-sign a 32-year-old coming off a three-year decline, the worst full-time hitter at his position. Unbelievable. There's no excusing that. Frandsen would outhit that, easy.

Verdict: Bad. Again, re-signing the worst hitter at a position can't be a good deal regardless of the money involved.

December 6th, 2006

Signed Bengie Molina to a three-year contract worth $16 million

This is another good veteran signing - Molina is an above-average hitting catcher and even with his declining defense the money isn't so much that it would be crippling if he ended up a backup by the end of the deal or something. There weren't many catchers on the market either.

Verdict: Good. I don't like the long-term contract to a catcher with a weight problem but so far Molina has hit well and there's as much a chance he stays the good-stick no-defense asset that he is for the duration of the contract just as there's a chance he gets hurt.

Signed Steve Kline to a two-year contract worth $3.5 million.

Kline was coming off a two-year stretch where he put together this line: 4.63 RA, 5.5 K/9, 4.5 BB/9, 1.1 HR/9, 1.50 WHIP.

You're telling me there's nobody down on the farm or off the top of the garbage bin that could approximate that line? Kline's only real virtue at this point in his career is that he's been in the league for twelve years and he's left-handed. His performance has been even worse than could be expected so far: a WHIP over 2.00, but his bullpen spot hasn't been mentioned as being in jeopardy, for some reason. It's not like he's a LOOGY or anything either, over the last three years lefties have hit only a smidgen worse against him than righties.

Verdict: Bad - the money isn't much but Kline is an eminently replaceable quantity so it's basically money down the drain.

December 19th, 2006

Signed Ryan Klesko to a one-year contract worth $1.75 million

His power stroke may have disappeared but so far at least he's been able to get on base, and that's something. $1.75 million is barely more than a flyer, so it was a pretty low-risk move.

Verdict: Good minor deal, assuming Sabean was unable to find any adequate first sackers in a trade Klesko/Aurilia are a much better deal than, say, Sean Casey who I was terrified we'd try to get.

December 29th, 2006

Signed Barry Zito to a seven-year contract worth $126 million with a vesting option for an eighth year

Now, in most cases you'd say "oh, how can you judge a contract after only two months," but there's plenty of reasons we can see right now that this contract was bad. First of all, take a look at Zito's peripherals over the past three years (and now a month and a half into 2007):

2004: 6.9 K/9, 3.4 BB/9
2005: 6.7 K/9, 3.5 BB/9
2006: 6.1 K/9, 4.0 BB/9
2007: 5.0 K/9, 4.6 BB/9 (small sample size, but if apparently these last two months can validate the Morris/Winn signings I guess they can iNvalidate this one.)

Not even taking length into account it's pretty clear that the pitcher you are getting isn't exactly dominating. He eats up a ton of innings, sure, but three years of declining peripherals doesn't exactly scream "long-term contract." Which gets us to the length. Seven years (maybe EIGHT) for a pitcher is never a good idea. The risk is too high - even an exceptional pitcher (which Zito is not) is a huge risk over the course of seven years. Don't believe me? The largest contracts ever given to a pitcher before Zito were eight years $121 million to Mike Hampton, and seven years $105 million to Kevin Brown, and we all know how those turned out. The similarity runs beyond the financial, Mike Hampton is actually Zito's most similar pitcher through age 28 according to Baseball Reference.

To summarize a bit, because I know this one is going to get some discussion, I'm not saying Zito is a bad pitcher. He's better than he has been this year, but I don't see any way that this contract is going to go down as a good one. Sure, there's a chance he'll turn into Tom Glavine or Jamie Moyer and pitch forever, but when you're talking about $126 million you can't rely too much on wishcasting - the chances are not good that this will be a good contract.

Verdict: Bad, with a chance to be merely pretty damn bad and a chance to be one of the worst ever.

January 30th, 2007

Signed Barry Bonds to a one-year contract worth $15.8 million

It's hard to say anything about this - the Giants were going to re-sign Barry Bonds and they did. It's a one-year deal so the money isn't really a huge issue and the team frankly wasn't contending without Bonds so Sabean's hands were tied even if he hadn't wanted Bonds back. Even with his May tailspin, Barry has been one of, if not the, best hitter in the league, so it looks even better. The key to free agency, in my opinion, is the short-term contract. When you have young, homegrown players that's when you lock them up long-term, but free agency is almost always a market full of players past their primes (hitters peak around 29, pitchers possibly even sooner) so you're 9 times out of 10 going to pay for production you'll never get again.

Verdict: Good, inevitable contract.

April 1st, 2007

Signed Matt Cain to a four-year contract worth $9 million

Like the Lowry deal, this one is good, and a good precedent to set, but it wasn't the fleecing some seem to have interpreted it as. I don't think Cain left money on the table - he's basically forfeiting a few million in arbitration for the guarantee that, even if his arm falls off (STOP LETTING HIM THROW 110 PITCHES BOCHY) he'll be able to retire happily. I wouldn't have wanted to give him much more guaranteed money then we did, I don't think he left any on the table.

Verdict: Good deal, with the above explanation.

---

Sabean clocks in for this last off-season with a superfically impressive six good contracts to three bad ones, but that doesn't really tell the story. The good contracts were all nice little deals, but the bad contracts ranged from inexcusable (Feliz) to possibly payroll-crippling (Zito). In addition, Sabean again backloaded the contracts making it even harder for the team of the future to compete. Look at it this way, would you rather have these contracts:

Zito: $18 million (7 year commitment)
Kline: $3.5 million (2 year commitment)
Roberts: $6 million (3 year commitment)
Feliz: $5 million (1 year commitment)

or these ones:

Daisuke Matzusaka: $17 million (6 year commitment with the posting fee averaged in to the contract)
Akinori Iwamura: $4 million (3 year commitment, again with the posting fee averaged into the contract)
Trot Nixon: $3 million (1 year commitment)
Jayson Werth: $1 million (1 year commitment)

And just pocket the extra $7 million - or better yet use it in the amateur draft to make a play at any signability issues that drop? Or, even if you aren't feeling adventurous, just

Ted Lilly: $10 million (4 year commitment)
Jose Guillen: $5.5 million (1 year commitment)
Jeff Cirillo: $1.5 million (1 year commitment), play him or Frandsen as you desire

And use the extra $15 million a year elsewhere? I know I would certainly prefer the latter.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Very nice analysis, Jake.  You went to a lot of trouble for this one, but it was worth it!

by sharksrog on May 20, 2007 1:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Thanks. Maybe I get a little touchy when people march right on by the research to brush it off as "bias", but I really do put a lot of work into these.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Honestly, its pretty easy to dismiss the Jack Clark's and the allfrank's of the world - they know not of what they speak. ;)

by Aadik on May 20, 2007 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Let me just say here as well, before any major discussion starts up: I am very interested in debating my conclusions on their own merits. If you disagree with them, I'm happy to see where and why. What I'm not interested in is talking about why people think I'm writing them. I make a point to respond to posts based entirely their content rather than try to speculate about any personal motivations behind them - please extend to me the same courtesy.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 1:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think I agree with pretty much all of your assessments of these deals. Sabean really did make some nice, low-profile type signings this offseason. Molina has obviously worked out well. Auriliesko has already outperformed our first basemen from last year and I think those numbers could improve over the course of the season. Durham hasn't hit particularly well yet, but I'm confident he'll get it together (he started last year off slowly too, remember.) Those were all good signings that didn't cost too much in terms of years or dollars.

The problem is that his one big splash was pretty bad (and, of course, he tried to make a big splash with some other players ... Matthews, Pierre, Lee ... all of whom would have been terrible deals had they signed.)

I don't know if I'm just parroting you here, because it's late and I should be in bed, but I really do agree with your assessments. I think, in the end, Sabean did a lot of things right this offseason, but his desire to make that big signing kind of ruined the overall results. Sort of a case of putting public relations ahead of what actually makes sense for team (in both terms of money, years and talent.) It wouldn't have been as flashy if he'd signed Ted Lilly or whoever instead of Zito, but it probably would be better long-term for this franchise.

Of course, at this point, I doubt Sabean is really looking long-term anymore (I'd be surprised if he's still the Giants GM after this season is over.) The fans were all clamoring for a big signing all offseason and he gave it to them, satisfying them in the short-term. But in three or four years, I don't see any way that people will look back on the Barry Zito deal and see it as anything but a colossal PR mistake. Just my opinion, and if you disagree with me, you don't need to call me biased or crazy or whatever.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 20, 2007 2:01 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sadly, I'm not as optimistic as you about Sabean's tenure coming to an end. He's apparently very well-liked by ownership, and I can sort of see why - while he's failed to make the playoffs three years running he's managed to "contend" into the last month in each of those seasons, meaning ticket sales weren't bad. I imagine that streak will hit four by the end of this year, and I still haven't heard much in the way of rumors about Sabean's job being in danger.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 2:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yeah, it definitely might be wishful thinking on my part... hey, I was certain he wouldn't be the GM anymore this year! (Of course, I was also certain that they would finally stop with the mediocre "contending" team charade this year and maybe start a full blown rebuilding phase, but I was wrong.)

Sometimes I actually wonder if the average fan notices that the Giants have been significantly below .500 the last two years. They're not the team of 2000-2004 that won 90+ games a year anymore... I mean, you keep hearing "they're contending!" but it feels like there's not much acknowledgement (in the media, I guess... or from the organization) that the Giants were 21 games below .500 (combined) the last two years.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 20, 2007 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Given that the posting fees have to paid more or less immediately, I don't think Matsuzaka was a reasonable alternative. The Giants aren't exactly poor, but it's hard to see them coming up with a 50M lump sum.

I think it's too early to judge Molina's deal. Most of the concerns about that contract are in the long term, and his hitting to date is sort of fluky (his consistently enormous platoon splits have reversed).  

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 20, 2007 2:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I wasn't a fan of Molina's contract at the time.  I'm still not.  The year before he had signed a one-year deal for $5 million.  Not sure who Sabean was bidding against, this time.  Like Bhaakon, I don't think Molina is a prime candidate to continue with his best offensive season, being overweight and about to turn 33.

Not the worst signing, but the Giants could have spent a lot less than $16 million for not much worse.  Plus, Alfonzo's a fine back-up, so they weren't dying at this position.

Otherwise I agree with Jake.  I thought it was Sabean's best off-season in several years until the Zito signing.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on May 21, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
"Given that the posting fees have to paid more or less immediately, I don't think Matsuzaka was a reasonable alternative. The Giants aren't exactly poor, but it's hard to see them coming up with a 50M lump sum."

A couple of points here:

First, corporations are seldom able to be run on cash only.  They borrow for long-term expenditures, much as we borrow to buy our houses.

Second, the Giants have been prepaying their loan all along.  Had they merely paid it off as scheduled, they would have had more money avaiable.  Had they banked the money, they would have had enough for Matsuzaka.

by sharksrog on May 20, 2007 2:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
even if they did have the money to beat that Red Sox offer, who would have thought the Red Sox would have bid that high to begin with?? The Mets bid 33 million for him and were sure they had the top offer. They were stunned when they heard the Red Sox offer. The Giants could've desperately wanted Dice K and it probably would have never occured to them that it would take a bid of about 55 million to get him. The Red Sox are in a money war with the Yankees for top talent. The Giants have no NL west competitor throwing around cash like that. Not even the Dodgers.
Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Zito's peripherals
This is from the Lincecum thread. My numbers are not from BPro, they're from BBRef.

Zito's K, BBs, IP, K/9, BB/9 since 2003:

       K   BB   IP    K/9  BB/9

  1. 146, 88, 231.7, 5.6, 3.4
  2. 163, 81, 213.0, 6.4, 3.1
  3. 171, 89, 228.3, 6.7, 3.5
  4. 151, 99, 221.0, 5.7, 3.8
2005 : 171  * 9 / 228.3 = 6.7411..

Where did you get those K/9 numbers from?

From BPro, Zito's top 10 most comparable players:

  1. Chuck Finley
  2. Wilson Alvarez
  3. Tom Glavine
  4. Jim Palmer
  5. Vinegar Mizell
  6. Chan Ho Park
  7. Steve Carlton
  8. Kevin Gross
  9. Darryl Kile
  10. Larry Dierker
Obviously, Chan Ho is the big red flag in that list. On the other hand of these 10 players, they have his similarity with Glavine trending up. And of course, some of the others aren't half bad either.

by rfloh on May 20, 2007 4:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Never mind
I'm a drunk idiot. Ignore the numbers I posted.

by rfloh on May 20, 2007 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Well this has been interesting, to say the least.  Props to Jake for stirring the pot and bringing one of the more readable debates of late.

A few things I would like to mention:

Despite the reviews on 2004, the Giants performed well within Sabean's track record (91 wins).  The offense even improved by 100 runs (even without Vlad).  Much of that has to be attributed to Bonds stoopid season, but how much?  Certainly not more than half and maybe much less.

If Sabean gets heat, so should upper brass and we can't really replace them.  It seems that these are the working conditions for Brian:

Don't rebuild
Win while Barry's still good
Do it within our spending budget

Well I think Sabean did that pretty well until 2005 when the rent came due a little early.

It's speculating, but I have to think that after the 2002 series, Sabean started to receive more pressure from Magowan and Co.  Before then, Brian seemed to have carte blanche on baseball ops within a specified budget.  I got to think that has something to do with his performance.

A special note on the Zito singing.  I think this move smacks of Magowan and Co.  I think they like the superstar from a marketing standpoint.  Their first move was to get Barry Bonds.  In the twilight of Barry's career, it looks like they have made a move to find his replacement as the superstar of the team.  Zito was signed from a marketing standpoint as much as for baseball reasons.  Besides, when has Sabean ever, ever come close to signing a FA superstar.  It's not his style.

I have been pleased with some of his draft moves in the past year plus.  Even though Jake has given a deep review of major transactions at the top level, only a few have mentioned the draft.  Lincecum, Sanchez, Villalona were all acquired during the years You analyze, Jake.  Perhaps we could see a similar analysis of the drafts in this period (as if You have loads of time).  But I would think, even with the picks dump in 2004, Sabean has some plusses in this area.

I am very much for front office stability.  I watched the DooDooHeads spin the GM roulette wheel for a few years now, and I wouldn't say it's worked out for them.  I am not necessarily championing for Sabean, but I am thinking of these things:

Considering results only, Sabean has performed well.  I consider 2005/2006 to really be his down years and I attribute some of that to upper management.  Even Jake gives him some credit for his 2006 actions (excluding Zito, but see above).

Who replaces Sabean?  It had better be someone good.  Different doesn't equal better.

Now this is a question I asked before - maybe a year or two ago.  I have heard some mention Kim Ng in these threads, but that's about it.

So seriously, for all those that want Sabean to get lost, with whom do You replace him?  I'd really be interested in knowing.

Thanks for listening kids.  Remember, angels fly cause Ralph Barbieri says so.

-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 20, 2007 5:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
By the way, my biggest frustration with Sabean is a system wide lack of plate discipline.  Grrrr.
-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 20, 2007 5:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I agree, and I have been pleasantly surprised by Fred Lewis and Dan Ortmeier, the latest two to get up here. They actually take some pitches. Niekro was a hack, and Todd Linden would occasionally take a pitch, but unfortunately that pitch he would take was usually a strike three right down the middle. Maybe things are changing.
Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Is that really something you can blame on Sabean? To a certain extent, yes, because certain players just naturally have better discipline at the plate abd he's not really looking for them, but if there was a decent hitting instructor the difference between a player who was naturally disciplined and a player who was well instructed in our system would be unbelievably less pronounced.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 20, 2007 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Sabean is ultimately in charge of both drafting the undisciplined hitters and hiring the incompetent batting coaches, so yes, it all ends up at his doorstep.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
As I said below, I didn't realize he was responsible for hiring minor league coaches. Understanding that now, I retract my defense.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Since Brian Sabean has responsibility for hiring minor league hitting instructors as well as drafting players, to say the Giants hitters' lack of discipline isn't his fault makes me wonder if anyone can be accountible for anything.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Ah, didn't realize he was responsible for hiring minor league coaches. Seemed like it would have been somebody else's job.

But see, it's not that I'm stupid or that I don't understand accountability. Just that I'm a little underinformed. Learn something new, and so on.

In that case, alright. I can't really say it's not his fault.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I suppose it's possible that Magowan has been interefering, but there's really no way to know for sure.

As for the draft, we've been excellent at developing  pitching talent, to be sure, but I've always been under the impression that a lot of that is Dick Tidrow - the Lincecum pick in particular seemed to be something he had been championing. It would seem a little too forgiving to give Sabean a pass on some bad moves that he may not have been solely responsible with and then give him full credit for some draft moves that he also may have not been fully responsible for.

Even if he was being pushed by Magowan and Co. I'm not sure I'd forgive him entirely. It's possible to run a franchise well even with meddling owners (Cashman in the Yankees has done a pretty decent job combining free agents with homegrown players, and while he has the benefit of oodles of cash he's also kept Steinbrenner for doing anything rash for some time. On the other end of the spectrum you have Colleti/McCourt on the Dodgers and even if they have the benefit of Logan White gathering of prospects by the barrell that's still not the organizational template I want to use.)

Still, you raise some good points. I'm not exactly sure who I'd want replacing Sabean, but in my way of thinking you decide to get rid of him first and find a suitable replacement second. I wouldn't mind giving an inexperienced candidate like Ng a shot (GMs with experience have to come from somewhere), you never know when you might get a diamond in the rough like Billy Beane and a wild card is still better than a keeping the definite negative that you have.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Though it may sound it, I'm not necessarily making defenses for Sabean.  More to the point, I have my own questions and I am attempting to answer them.

One question is the difference between early Sabean and late Sabean.  Though some similarities have been noted, I think most have agreed that his performance was favorable before 2003.

Arguing ownership influence doesn't give the GM a pass, but it could help explain a performance change.  Certainly it's speculation, but Peter started to mouth off in public about baseball ops around 2002.  If anyone disagrees that ownership panicked after the world series and started to press, I would be happy to list instances that lead me to believe that there is some possible truth in it.  Of course, it's all speculation.

You certainly are correct in stating that Dick Tidrow deserves a lot of credit for drafting.  But when we are talking about Sabean's performance, I'm thinking we are talking about his management group as a whole.  He doesn't make the bad moves all by himself.

Finally, I will have to politely disagree with Your method of replacement.  I have an executive with a successful track record.  His record of late has been sub-par, but I have to consider all the circumstances.  If I am going to replace him, I want an improvement.  I am not going to make the change unless I have multiple strong candidates from which to choose.  That includes peeps who have yet to be a GM.  If Sabean really sucked for the past ten years, it's a different story.  But for now, don't fire until You feel confident You can get better.

To that end, I would still really love to hear more suggestions on GM replacements.

-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 20, 2007 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
What's the point in us listing GM replacements?

There's no BBRef or BA page to peruse to find their vital stats or rank their tools, as it were. Anything anyone said here would be rank speculation even by internet message board standards.

Case in point, Kim Ng. Is here name consistantly dropped because she's a drafting guru, because she's an expert contract negotiator, or just because her status as the only notable female GM candidate grants her some name recognition? I'd like to say it's the first two, but since those kind of things never get reported on, I feel pretty safe saying it's #3.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
What's the point in us listing GM replacements?

Well...because I'm interested.  Maybe others are as well.  

True, an essential part of my post is that if we ditch Sabean, I want a better GM in replacement.  But the general broadcast question is not to simply say, "Sabes rawks and who You gonna get to replace his awesomeness?"  No, rather I'm thinking that there would be some really interesting opinions on the subject.  While there is much less reported about potential MLB GM's as opposed to players, I contend that MCCers are not Your average group and have info and insights on who could be a good replacement for Brian.  I myself, lack that info.

I do welcome rank speculation.  On a site where peeps can regularly call the for the Feliz/Sanchez for Cabrera trade, I think we can rampantly speculate on GM's a bit.

-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 21, 2007 2:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
On a side note, John Schuerholz is a great, great GM.  He goes about his job quietly but very effectively.  Seems to me that You don't hear his name nearly as much as You hear about Beane, Theo, DePo, or even as much as Cashman, Gillick, Hendry, or even Bowden.  Of course, You hear Bowden's name because he's terrible.
-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 21, 2007 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Padres have stocked up on general manager types.  I would raid their cupboard, quite possibly for Paul DePodesta.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
He did a good job of clear the Dodger's payroll, if nothing else.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Kevin Towers is quietly one of the better GMs around the league (Adam Eaton for Adrian Gonzalez and Chris Young?!), I think you're right that there have to be some people in that organization with some real smarts.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Dodgers passed on Ng to grab Colletti from us. That kind of sends up a red flag to me. Maybe McCourt was being racist or sexist, but I still would be concerned. I don't see anybody out there floating around who I prefer to Sabean, and that's why I wouldn't fire him. I think Sabean is slow to come around to new ideas, but I think he is finally on the right track with his newfound fondness for younger players.
Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think a large part of it was wanting to appease the media in LA (*coughPlaschkecough*) by getting someone who was an "Old School" GM with plenty of experience and connections, rather than go for a another "new name", like they did with DePo.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 20, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sabean worked Cain, but nobody else
Cain agrees with Jake that the $9 million contract was a fair one, or he wouldn't have signed.

But contracts are not written in a vacuum. Comparisons are always used by smart agents. And my position is that a better agent would have asked both Matt and Brian:

  1. If Cain had the same value as Lowry, and
  2. If Cain had the same value as Lowry even though it was one year later -- and pitchers' salaries had skyrocketed in the interim.
The answer from Matty, Sabean, and everybody here for both questions is an emphatic Hell, No. But Sabean was somehow able to avoid or obfuscate this basic argument and get a contract the brass was toasting each other over.

Props to Sabean. I think it's the only deal he negotiated this offseason for under market value.

by Moggeee on May 20, 2007 7:44 AM PDT reply actions  

Another test case coming
Lincecum looks like a sure bet to stick through 2007. And at some point, one of these pitchers better get an agent who firmly believes his boy is better than Lowry, and is willing to go to the mat for it.

Think Lincey's gonna get a mere $9 million on a four-year-deal starting in 2008?

Heh-Heh-Heh-Heh...Laugher!

by Moggeee on May 20, 2007 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Sabean worked Cain, but nobody else
I don't think that Sabean was negotating that Cain had the same value of Lowry - if I'm looking at the numbers right Lowry was having mostly arbitration years bought out while Cain was having a major-league minimum year bought out as well. That's definitely a difference of millions.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Frandsen vs Durham
Not sure where the dig about Frandsen vs Durham came from.  I've probably been Frandsen's biggest pimp and I've never, ever said he was better than Durham. I haven't read every post on this site and maybe my memory is slipping, but I don't recall anyone else saying that either.  Here's my take:

Frandsen is ready to begin his major league career.

Second base is his best position.

He can be a good major league starter at a middle infield position.

He's a whole lot cheaper than Durham.

Frandsen will probably be more durable than Durham at this point in their careers.

Having said those things, if the money isn't an issue, or if it isn't going to be used for an upgrade at another position, then Durham is the better choice, by far.

Now, I was happy with the idea that Frandsen would be the backup IF at 3 positions as this would probably give him significant playing time and a chance to break in to major league ball.  The moves that upset me were:  1. Signing both Feliz and Aurilia forcing Aurilia to 1B, and 2.  Signing Klesko which moved Aurilia off first base for a lot of games making Aurlia the de-facto reserve IF.  That left essentially no AB's for Frandsen.

i can't really argue that Frandsen is going to be more productive than any of those players this year, but I think he is part of our future and the future will never arrive if you don't give the kids a chance to play somewhere along the way.  Those were classic Brian Sabean prospect blocking moves.

by DrBGiantsfan on May 20, 2007 8:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Durham's all right. It's really Kevin vs. Richie
We are approaching the end of May, and though he often bats in front of Bonds, Aurilia has one lousy homer.

Hooray.

With this as a scorecard, energetic Frandsen could hardly have less of an impact than the fading Aurilia as a backup or a frontline player.

It's not only looking like a prospect-blocking move, it appears to have all the features of a franchise-blocking move.

by Moggeee on May 20, 2007 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Kevin vs. Omar??
Aurilia was raking the ball until the neck injury. And while you can think it's an excuse if you want to, he returned today after a few days off and hit his second homerun. Let's see what happens now. Maybe it's actually Kevin vs. Omar. Omar seems to be in serious fade mode.
Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like Aurilia, and his jack was quite welcome
My timing on calling Richie out was impeccable, no?

;-)

But I remember Richie looking good for about the first three weeks of the season and being a nonfactor for the next three.

I think he really can't play every day anymore, and it appears Omar may be reaching that point as well.

by Moggeee on May 20, 2007 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Oh, that wasn't a dig at you, there's just some guy in the Gameday threads who keeps inferring that. Maybe he's joking, I dunno. I actually agree with you that Kevin Frandsen should have been a starter (or at least gotten 400+ ABs this season) - at third. Getting Feliz's black hole of suck out of the lineup is a benefit in and of itself, Frandsen doesn't even have to play up to the optimistic projections to best that.

Playing Frandsen almost every day at third (or if the team insists on Aurilia, at least playing Frandsen every day against lefties) and backing up short and second would be a very good use for him, and pretty much the kind of use I see the team having for him throughout his career. They just have to figure that out.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Frandsen vs Durham
Everytime I say they should DFA Feliz, he hits a couple of homeruns, or has a day like today's where he plays the hell out of third base. I don't like him, but he hits 20 homeruns, drives in 80 runs and plays near Gold Glove defense. There are bigger problems on this team than Pedro Feliz.
Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Frandsen vs Durham
He drives in 80 runs because there are a ton of guys on base in front of him, not because he's a good hitter. RBI are a crappy measure of a hitter's effectiveness.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right
That murderers row lineup we have just hands it to Feliz, huh?

by DrBGiantsfan on May 20, 2007 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Right
Last year Feliz was 10th in the NL in RBI opportunities, first on the Giants by far.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Right
That's really the only explaination - I mean, a high SLG will skew RBI totals high (while an OBP will do the same for R totals) but Feliz is actually a slightly worse hitter with RISP throughout his career, so the only real explanation is that he's had a ton of guys on ahead of him. Most any hitter the Giants have would have driven in more runs than Happy Pete if they'd been batting in all the same situations.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Right
Didn't he bat behind Bonds and Durham last year?

Two high-OBP-and-SLG guy in front of you will get you lots of opportunities.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on May 20, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Frandsen vs Durham
You should say DFA Feliz before every game.

Either you'll be right, or he'll be great.  There's no downside!

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on May 20, 2007 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Frandsen vs Durham
You are correct that there are players on the Giants who are bigger problems than Pedro Feliz, Mark.  And that is why the Giants aren't especially good.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Interesting that despite the "good" offseason, we still aren't very good.  I think that shows a lack of foresight into the market.

Zito - pass

by zenbitz on May 20, 2007 9:51 AM PDT reply actions  

The Proof - Magowan distancing himself from his GM
Exacto. This market played Sabean, not vice versa.

by Moggeee on May 20, 2007 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The thing with the $17 million price tag on Dice-K is that it's not counting the insane posting fee, and the expensive perks that he gets.  

by Chulk on May 20, 2007 10:35 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
It actually is - that's the crazy thing. I took Dice-K's $52 million posting fee, added it to his $52 million contract and divided those by the number of years. Even taking that into account the Sox are still paying less per year for him than we are for Zito.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

cue stripes theme
...and then depression set in.
"...and I hope you're feliz now..."

by The Gene Hackman on May 21, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
This all comes down to the Zito deal.  Here we just disagree.  In today's market Zito's incredable durability coupled with his well above average skills makes his contract value elite.  I like the Zito signing especially in the context of the Lowry and Cain contracts and what I expect to be simular contracts down the road for Lincecum and Sanchez.  We should have a great rotation for the length of the Zito contract at a very reasonable total cost.  

by giantsrainman on May 20, 2007 3:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
No thanks to signing Barry.

The chances of Barry's earning his $126 million contract are probably a bit better than our chances of gracefully getting out of Iraq.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Barry Zito is the vereran foundation.  The leader of the pack.  The one who takes the pressure of being the Ace and allows the others to pitch without this pressure.  Cain, Lowry, Lincecum, and Sanchez (eventually) are all better of pitching behind Zito in the rotation then they would be with one or more of them feeling they need to be the man.  

The Zito dollars just do not stop the Giants from having the dollars to pay two premier bats once Bonds is gone.  The Bonds, Morris (trade), Benitez, Feliz, Klesko, and Sweeney money (even with the riases due the other signed players remaining) are more then enough to add two stud bats for 2008 and beyond.  We may even be able to add a third if we trade Morris and his dollars for say the next Adrien Gonzalez.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Even if that's true (and I don't believe it is), who are the giants going to sign? They're going to run into the same problems they had last offseason: too few star players available, all those stars having obvious flaws, too much competition, players looking at considerations beyond money. It's just not reasonable to expect to rebuild in one offseason.

Oh, and what are you going to do about the closer?

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
What the heck are you two doing awake at this hour? I thought only hometownboy and a couple more of us lived in a backward part of the world that has us awake while the rest of you (theoretically) sleep.

by Giant Fan in Singapore on May 21, 2007 2:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The pitching staff is already rebuilt.  With another year of experience we will find a closer from our current bullpen arms.  Don't be suprised if Hennessey becomes a damm good closer.  Ortiz is even a possibility and he can be re-signed again for 2008 with Arizona again paying his contract.

You do have a point on the lack of enough true premium bats in next year's free agent class.  But, this will be all we will be looking for.  The rest of the lineup is already set with slightly above average (in agragate) bats.  Molina(C), Durham(2B), Aurilia(1B/3B/SS?), Winn(CF/RF?), Roberts(CF/LF?), and one of Lewis(RF),  Ortmeier(RF), Schierholtz(RF) or Frandsen(3B/SS).  It is most likely that we will only be able to sign one of the needed premium bats and will have to trade for the other.  That is where a Morris plus prospects trade comes in.  This trade might even happen this year!  

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 2:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I don't want to rain on your parade... but we need 2 bats NOW.  With no Bonds next year, we will need 3... three... big.. bats... MWHA-HA-HA.

Unless you are just saying how easy it will be to put toghether yet another .500 team.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Nice analysis, Zenbitz.  The Giants DO need two big bats now.  And since it will likely take two more to replace Barry's when he leaves, the Giants might need as many as four big bats in the near future.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
This is just emotional BS.  Our offense is average now and our pitching is above average now.  We are currently winning below the level we should be based on the runs we have scored vs the runs we have given up.  There is every reason to believe that our offense (healthy Aurilia, Durham, and soon Roberts) will become above average (as PECOTA and most other projection systems projected) and our pitching (Lincecum replaceing Ortiz in the rotation and Ortiz replacing Sanchez in the bullpen) will approach becoming elite.  We just don't have to be one of the best offenses in baseball to be one of the best teams in baseball.  We can get the by having one of the best pitching staffs in baseball and just an above average offense.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Giants 3rd order predicted record: 21.3-21.7
(this adjusts for RS/RA true, RS/RA projected from component EQA and RS/RA adjusted for strength of schedule.

Our simulated season records are:

80.6-81.4 (raw)
77.5-84.5 (ELO)
79.8-82.2 (PECOTA)

Now, one can argue about the accuracy of these simulations and what they account for - BUT you brought up the projects, and the projections don't jibe with what you posted.

Without looking in detail of RS/RA it may be true that the offense is projected to improve.  If so, the defense (pitching) is expected to regress.

The wild card is Lincecum.  But I don't quite give him credit for being enough to bump us from mediocre -> good, especially if you account for the inevitable Morris decline.

All this being said - sure, everything could bounce our way the rest of the year and we make the playoffs.  But "on paper" this is a .500 team playing .500 ball.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Zenbitz, your analysis here seems quite accurate.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think you are overrating both the offense and especially the pitching.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I believe it is your definition of above-average bats that gets you in trouble on this one.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
No, it is your defination that gets you in trouble.  Molina, Durham, Aurilia, Roberts, and  Winn are all above average.  The sixth (one of Frandsen, Lewis, Ortmeier, or Schierholtz) is an unknown but the agragate should still be above average.  You seem to want to define average as star and above average as superstar and this just ain't the case.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Aurilia is not above average by any stretch of the word - even if he really bounces back to last year's numbers those would be average at most for a first basemen.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
An above average catcher like Molina (I'll agree with this one for sure) is marginal compared to a quite below average 1b (like Aurilia)

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I just knew someone was going to bring in the defensive position played as evidance of a hitter being below average.  Sorry, but I ain't buying it.  The fact is that compared to all hitters at all positions (both offensive lineup position and defensive position but not including pitchers) all of these guys are above average (some more above average then others).  A NL offense with 5 above average hitters, one TBD skill level "youngster", and two .900+ OPS hitters is a well above average offense and will be a World Series Contender with an approaching elite pitching staff like the Giants.  

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
So where are we going to get two .900+ OPS hitters?
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
We will have the money to pay them (Bonds, Morris, Benitez, Feliz, Klesko, and Sweeney dollars minus raises).  We will find one thru free agency and one by trade (Morris plus prospects).

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I just don't see where you get the confidence that Sabean is going to be able to trade for a bat like that - we've needed one for years and he's yet to do it.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
More specifically, could you maybe throw out some trade scenarios so I can see what it is you're expecting Sabean to pull off?
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
On this we just disagee and we will both have to wait and see what actually happens.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Well, I mean, surely you have some ideas or something? I mean there's a limited number of players on the market...
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yankees - Morris, Kline, and Blackley for Abreu or Giambi and two 40 man roster scrubs.
BlueJays - Morris and Feliz for Troy Glaus and a 40 man roster scrub.
Orioles - Morris and Vizquel for Miguel Tejada and a 40 man roster scrub.
Mariners - Morris and Feliz for Richie Sexton and a 40 man roster scrub.
Twins - Morris, Blackley, and the Twins choice of one of Lewis, Ortmeier or Schierholtz for Tori Hunter Ramon Ortiz and a 40 man roster scrub.
Braves - Morris, Blackley, and the Braves choice of one of Lewis, Ortmeier or Schierholtz for Andrew Jones, Mark Redman, and a 40 man roster scrub.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Morris and Vizquel for Miguel Tejada and a 40 man roster scrub.

...

......

..
..

Let me just share what Tejada at the deadline commanded last year (yeah last year bla bla this hasn't changed much):

It appears that the LA Angels of Anaheim had also offered Chone Figgins, Ervin Santana and Howie Kendrick for Miguel Tejada and a prospect.

The Orioles discussed sending Tejada to Houston for Roy Oswalt, Morgan Ensberg and Adam Everett earlier this week.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
As I said above, let's just wait and see what actually happens.  We just disagree on the trade value of Morris to a contending team in need of starting pitching.  This list was not ment to say all equally likely, it was rather just a list of possibilities in answer to a question I was asked.  It was not meant to be all inclusive of the possibilities either.  Yes, I agree, the Tejada senario is the least likely.  But, if the Orioles make a move and Tejada continues to hit without much power then it becomes more likely if the Orioles think they are a good veteran starting pitcher away from a serious push.    

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I agree that we should wait and see what happens.  Can you agree that what you proposed isn't likely to happen?

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
BlueJays - Morris and Feliz for Troy Glaus and a 40 man roster scrub.

I just saw some Blue Jays fan trade proposals for Glaus today... and they were more along the lines of Ervin Santana or Andy LaRoche for Glaus. And I'm guessing if Glaus is traded, it'll be for someone like that, and not for Morris/Feliz.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 21, 2007 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Ah, I guess there's where we differ, I don't see the other GM being even close to willing to pull the trigger on a single one of those deals.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Hense my point, we disagree on the trade value of Morris so let's just wait and see what happens.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I'm casting my vote for Jake's appraisal being accurate.  I hope you are right, Rain Man, but I fear Jake is far more on track on this one.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Hey, I see that you DID propose some trades, so I give you credit for trying.  But your trade ideas were very unrealistic, so I also give you credit for being very trying.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Ah, when pressed for details, you say you will just have to agree to disagree, Rain Man.  Can we agree that you are being evasive?

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
1)Morris isn't a free agent at the end of the season.
  1. Arod, Bonds, and Abreu are the only possible FA's with a career OPS of .900 or better, though Dunn is close with .894. Jones is at .847. I'm discounting Sheffield.
  2. I finally figured out what was wrong with you're original scenario. Durham, Roberts, Aurilia and Molina are only good for about 130 starts a season. Maybe they average out to average when they're all in the lineup, but they're rarely all in the lineup.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Who said Morris is a Free Agent after the season?  My plan is trade Morris and his dollars not for one of the desired bats not to have Morris' contract expire.

Yeah, you are right by career OPS.  But, I am counting Jason Giambi, Andruw Jones, Richie Sexton, Miguel Tajada, Troy Glaus, and Tori Hunter as close enough in that I am expecting something close to .900 (if not above) from them this year and next.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Glaus, maybe, but Giambi's an oft-injured DH, Sexson is looking pretty done, Tejada should be untouchable for anything the Giants can afford to trade, and Torii Hunter is anywhere near as good a hitter as you seem to think.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
That should be "nowhere" rather than "anywhere"
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The quality of these guys bats for the remainder of 2007 and 2008 are (like Morris' trade value) and area of opinion we just disagree on.  Again, let's just wait and see.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
As I said below, to me the 4 clear issues are: 1) trading a veteran starting pitcher performing well is vastly out of our front office's MO, almost unimaginably so; 2) I think you're overvaluing Morris significantly; 3) I think you're wrong on who some of the buyers are. The Orioles? The Blue Jays? Hard to see it. 4) Some of these hitters may well not be .900 OPS guys anymore. Abreu just looks like a shell out there (particularly on D, he looks like he can hardly move), and living in DC and watching lots of Os games I can tell you Tejada isn't driving the ball at all anymore.  These may be two "old skills" cases and if the teams are selling them that cheaply, I'd be leary.

by Roger on May 22, 2007 5:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Rain Man, I missed your movie a couple of days ago.  But in the movie you were so much better with numbers.

Your arguments are so simplistic.  You are probably right that most of the Giants position players are at least average, given that the averages include pitchers and reserves.

How many runs do you think the Giants will score?  My preseason prediction was for about 750 runs.  Entering play tonight, they were on pace to score 729.  So even MY prediction has thus far been too high.  I'll bet yours is WAY too high.

If it isn't, you don't truly think they will be an above-average offensive team.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Molina, Durham, Aurilia, Roberts and Winn AREN'T all above average.  I would give both Bengie and Ray a slight plus over average for their respective positions, but unless he plays the middle infield, Richie isn't likely to be much above average (if that), while Roberts is about an average hitter for a center fielder and Winn a below-average hitter in right.

When one puts that quintet together, they have been below average this season -- even with fine years from Molina and Winn.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Morris + which prospects man? I think you tend to overvalue the trade value of Giants players - I'd be curious to see what kind of a "big bat" trade you see going down?

Look at it this way, with Barry Bonds hitting like the Bonds of old this team still appears to be about a .500 team. What two players are we going to get who will both replace Bonds production (you need more than one player for that alone) and make the difference that moves us from a .500 team to a playoff-bound team?

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yeah, I agree there are several different problems with the Morris+ prospects for big bat concept. 1) Nothing Sabean has ever done suggests to me he is likely to sell high on someone like Morris; 2) without casting too many flammable aspersions on our prospects, there are a lot of teams that can offer a lot more when it comes to prospect trade bait; 3) as Sabean said this morning, there are basically 8 good teams right now that are clearly separated from everybody else, and most of the rest of the league are muddling along around .500. Who are the sellers in this market, exactly? What big bats are available? And if the sellers are teams that are cashing in the '07 season, then why exactly is Morris enticing to them?  If we're the seller, then why does the buyer want to give away a "big bat"?  The whole thing strikes me as a bit on the fantasy wish fulfillment-side.

by Roger on May 21, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The trade target is not a traditional seller.  The trade target is a traditional buyer who needs pitchings and in willing to trade offense to get it.  Possibilities are the Yankees, Mariniers, Twins, BlueJays, Orioles, and perhaps the Braves.

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I'm guessing you've never been involved in running a business.  Most individual decisions aren't important enough to ruin a business, but ANY decision that brings less value than it costs has a negative impact on the business.  If the decision is small, the impact is small.  If the decision costs $126 million, its impact can be rather large.

In any type of business, decisions should be made to provide more benefit than cost.  In the case of the Barry Zito signing, that very likely won't be the case. Ergo, the decision -- not a small one -- will likely hurt the franchise.  Resources aren't unlimited.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
To the contrary, I am one that understands that dependability has value and one that understands that leadership has value.  I am also one that understands that prices are going up and a deal that looks bad in yesterday's dollars (how you are looking at things) is actually good to tomorrow's dollars (which is how I am looking at things).

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
This is the only justification for the Zito signing - that 5-8 years from now salaries will bloat to to the point where 18M for BZ looks good.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Runaway Inflation makes Zito a steal
Nice to know my trailer house will be worth $2.3 million in eight years.

by Moggeee on May 22, 2007 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
A lot of things need to go right for Barry Zito to justify his contract -- especially as a #3 starter.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
It seems to me that smart organizations are the one's that realize now is when you let Tori Hunter, say, and Andruw Jones leave.  You've gotten their best and cheapest years (although and in Jones case some not so cheap ones, too). Less-smart organizations are the ones that throw scads of millions over many years for those players declining years. To me, trying to pick up two "stud" bats on the market would put us dangerously close to the second category.  Trading Morris for the next Gonzalez is a much better idea, if you can just figure out where he is.  Perhaps the incredible sour mood that Lastings Milledge has engendered in New York will turn him into a real bargain pick up for someone.

by Roger on May 21, 2007 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Actually, smart organizations that have the dollars to do both do both.  The Giants fit this catagory.  Is is just as hard to pre free agent only a sucessful team as it is to free agent only a sucessful team.  A blend is almost always the best.  

by giantsrainman on May 21, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Giants certainly have the dollars to do well by their fans.  In recent years, they merely have failed to do so.

Now that Tim Lincecum has been called up, how do you like those minor leagues?   :)

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Zito signing was ok.  Certainly it is too soon to tell with how the rest of the contract will play out, but it seems that with Zito, at least Sabean was banking on reliability.

Zito's peripherals aren't stunning, to be sure.  But he isn't a guy who is likely to fall off a cliff.  He is young enough that he isn't likely to lose a ton of FB speed - he already has probably the slowest FB this side of Jamie Moyer, and FB speed has little to do with his success anyway.  His FB isn't likely to get much slower, so why would his K rate drop?

Zito seems like a guy who will continue to deliver like he has in the past.  By the time he really declines, his contract will be middle-of-the-market anyway.  You can point to last year being worse than the year before, but his year last year was a lot like his 2004.  That's Zito - somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4 WHIP, depending on his hit rate, a 105-115 ERA+, and 220 IP or so.  

That's 220 solid IP that Sabean doesn't have to worry about.  Zito has no injury history, no mechanics that would suggest injury, and no blazing FB that is likely to cause injury.  Just pencil him in and worry about the other 1230 IP you need.

He isn't great, but he is good, and I don't see him getting much worse.  Unlike many high-dollar contracts (like Carlos Lee's), there isn't a ton of risk here.  It is a ton of money, but it isn't likely to go right down the toilet in two years.

The biggest problem I have with it is that it is money that could have been used for someone better next year or the year after.  But this is the Giants... contend now so long as Bonds can still play.  They spend a bunch of money every year - but why not just spend huge money one or two years, go veteran-nuts, make a serious WS run, and just cut payroll after Bonds retires?

I think a lot of people are right in saying that Sabean can't be blamed for all of the moves that have Magowan & Co written all over them.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 4:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
You can make an argument for Zito's contract that almost makes sense in a vacuum.

However, in the context of a team that has young pitching out the arse and no lineup to speak of (or much hitting in the minors to speak of), and is about to lose it's long time (and only) stud middle of the order bat to retirement, well, that dog won't hunt.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Zito signing was OK.  I'm OK.  You're OK.  Charles Manson is OK.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Hey now, Charles Manson is not OK.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Since the Zito signing was OK, I'm no longer worried about Global Warming either.

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
This is almost childish. NSCEGF actually made some good points, not inarguable but knowledgeable and good, to support his claim and the best you can do to show your disagreement is pseudo-ridicule, with two separate posts no less?

I'm not trying to call you out, because I don't like to cause trouble on the boards, but considering the tiff that's been going on with allfrank, it seems a bit messed. If somebody comes in with moderately supported claims and ridicule they get stats and logic in their face, but if somebody comes with stats and logic they get neither back?

I know you don't like the Zito signing, but if you were driven to disagree you could have at least addressed the points brought up.

Unless you and NSCEGF are having some kind of inside joke or being mutually playful with each other and I'm just being an idiot. That's the other scenario. In which case, well, this would have been a waste of everybody's time. Especially yours, and NSCEGF's, and mine.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yeah, I agree here. NSCEGF's comments are exactly the kind I'm trying to get with these threads - civil, well-reasoned ones, be they agreeing or disagreeing. Let's keep the snark to a minimum if we can.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
No one can ridicule me.  Not effectively, anyway.  Hahah.

Bhaakon makes a good point about the team needing bats.  That is partially why I brought up Magowan & Co as being behind some of these decisions.  I still don't think the Zito signing cripples the team, but it may not have happened in a market in which a real superstar hitter is available.

Thanks howtheyscored, thanks Jake... but really, Bhaakon and Sharksrog are good posters.  There are plenty of others I can't say the same about, but meh... whatever.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2007 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Bhaakon's comment was completely fine by me, and I agree that both guys are good posters.

I think it was in part because Sharksrog has been such a good poster that I was bothered by his two responses to your post. The other part is that he's been one of the voices cutting down allfrank for not-backing-up-his-arguments-and-using-ridicule-when-somebody-else-disagrees. It just seemed a little backward that he wouldn't disagree with you the same way he wants allfrank to disagree with him. It's kind of like "the allfrank defense," I guess.

But also, it's because he has been a good poster that I wasn't sure if I was missing some kind of joke or not. Like I said, I'm not here to stir trouble (others can do that just fine), but I did smell something a little funny and didn't want to watch it become a problem.

All these guys, though, allfrank, Bhaakon, Sharksrog, etc., they're all fine by me.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Hey, I'm sorry I didn't make a better argument for the Zito contract being overpriced.  I guess after doing so in various venues many, many times, I have tired of doing so.  So here goes:

.  Brian Sabean ADMITTED he overpaid for Barry.

.  Barry's peripherals have been headed rather steadily downhill since he won the MVP in 2002.

.  The argument that Barry should be better in the NL for at least a year or two is somewhat offset by his actually having pitched BETTER against AL teams during the months of interleague play than against NL teams.

.  Most of those who argue for Barry admit that they are concerned about the last three or four years of the contract.

.  Barry has been a model of consistency in taking the ball, but he doesn't average a really high number of innings per outing.  For instance, last season Jason Schmidt averaged a sixth of an inning per game MORE than did Barry.

.  Barry has thrown more pitches over the past six years than anyone aside from Livan Hernandez.  At some point that could put his super ability to take the ball in jeopardy, as his poor ERA's in both of the last two Septembers might indicate.

.  The Giants gave Barry the biggest contract of any pitcher in history.  That type of contract would seem to be designed to go to a great pitcher.  Barry is merely a good pitcher at this point -- and one who has been declining for four years.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I understand what people mean when they point fingers at Magowan (by the time Kent hit the market, for instance, Magowan had muddied the water beyond repair), but I'm not sure we can assume that there's a divide between Magowan et al and Sabean et al.  It seems to me that there inclincations on how to construct rosters are much more in accord than they are opposed (which is no doubt how they can continue on with such informal contract situations without things ever becoming unbearable).  In Baltimore we have a situation where the owner is truly obstructionist and has many times over the past several years vetoed completed trade deals (and the GMs make damn sure that the local papers know he did it). The Giants front office situation seems a long way from that kind of dysfuction anyhow.

by Roger on May 22, 2007 5:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Oh yeah.. Angelos is a total disaster.

Sabean may be right on track with Magowan, or he may just keep quiet and let the owner dictate certain things.  I really don't know.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2007 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Yeah, those kinds of things are hidden from our view and probably nobody's writing a book on the inside of the Giants organization to let us in.  But one thing that's often said in Sabean's defense is that his hand's have always been "tied" by Magowan's insistence on dedicating a quarter of the payroll to Bonds. My hypothetical thought problem is this: if we could imagine him having all that payroll back and no Bonds, would Sabean would have constructed a better club than the one we've had. Totally conjecture without substance of course, but my inclination is to think we would've had a whole bunch more Jose Vizcainos and Jason Christensen's littering the roster, and perhaps more overpaid Juan Pierres.  In fact, watching Ned Colletti's moves in LA may be one way to gain an insight into what this alternative universe Giants roster could look like.

by Roger on May 22, 2007 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I agree 100%.  The "Bonds is killing our payroll" argument is pretty Bruce Jenkins-y lame, especially when the guy supposedly killing the payroll is the best hitter in baseball.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2007 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
The Giants HAVE paid a high percentage of their payroll for Barry.  But aside from the past two years, they have gotten MORE than good value for their money.

Due to his injury in 2005, they certainly didn't.  Last season he came up short, as well.  But overall I'm not sure one can say that the Giants have overpaid for Barry.  To this point, he could be the player of the decade.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
If the Zito deal pans out, I will be MORE than happy to take this alphabet guy out to dinner.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
You just described Barry Zito as a guy worth perhaps HALF his $126 million contract.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
I think I agree with all of the reviews you made, except Aurillia I would say is "Great" because of the nostalgic and heart-warming feelings it brings.  I also think the Zito critique was a bit harsh.
"Hit 'em in the face!" -Mother Theresa to Russ Ortiz facing Jeff Kent

by milesntrane on May 21, 2007 9:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Seven years from now you may be saying that the Zito critique wasn't harsh ENOUGH.  :)

by sharksrog on May 21, 2007 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

A note about Zito
Zito's contract is heavily backloaded; we're only paying him $10M this year.  He's no Cy Young winner, but the current version of Zito for ten million is an extreme bargain.  Having Zito on the roster at that price makes the 2007 Giants much better.  

The contract will look much, much worse in 2013, but there is a very good chance Zito won't be a Giant then.

If I remember right, Zito is very cheap this year and next, but his salary jumps up a lot in 2009.

by sfmaynard on May 21, 2007 11:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
And people will want to take Zito's contract off the Giant's hands when it costs a lot more money per year because...

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
Tim Lincecum throw-in?
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
It's 14.5M next season. Not quite the 18-20M he makes for the rest of the contract, but not cheap.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
Backloaded contracts are actually one of the things Sabean does that upset me even more. He should take a note from football - a combination of backloaded and frontloaded contracts from year to year can help you sign that big player when you don't quite have the cash but a series of nothing but backloaded contracts just cripples you down the road. Almost every big contract we've signed for years has been backloaded.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 21, 2007 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
Although I think it's weird to describe a slightly-better-than-league-average pitcher as a bargain at 10 million (!), I do think it's reasonably possible that the market for pitchers, by the end of Zito's deal, will make it look ... not good, exactly, but not totally insane.

I seriously doubt that the Giants will be trading Zito, though.  The front office seems to be pretty deeply invested in having him be the new "face of the franchise" and - barring an unlikely ownership change - I don't think they'll cop to a mistake unless he seriously starts stinking it up.  Which, for the reasons CEGF posted above, I think is kind of unlikely: I think he'll continue a slow, steady decline but I'd be very surprised if he suddenly fell off a cliff, performancewise.

by Mel Ott on May 21, 2007 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
Does Mike Hampton's contract look anything but insane right now?

The average payroll would have to explode up above 100M to make 126M for a league average innings eater look reasonable. Lets just hope that Zito pitches better than that.  

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on May 21, 2007 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
The problem with Hampton's contract wasn't that it was for so much money, necessarily, but that it was for so many years.  All players are potential injury risks.  Hampton was just that terrible combination of crappy and injured with a really long contract.

Is Zito a risk?  Sure.  Less of a risk than most, I think.  Now you might say that it isn't worth the risk for a longer contract when the pitcher is Zito-quality, but Hampton had put up a 121, 150, and 139 ERA+ the three years before the big contract.  Hampton may not have had superb WHIPs for those years, but his ability to prevent runs was pretty certain at that point and he allowed very few HRs.

So he fell apart.  It was a risk.  You could just not sign any pitcher to a contract longer than 3 or 4 years.  You are going to lose out on some FAs, but I wouldn't argue with that if you really want to minimize risk.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2007 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
Hampton's contract does look insane, because he's not pitching at all.

The biggest risk in Zito's contract isn't the money, it's the years, because he absolutely is declining as a pitcher and the older he gets, the more likely it is he'll be injured. On the other hand, at the end of the contract, he'll be in his mid-30's - not extremely old for a durable starter with (so far, at least) a pretty clean injury history.  Long contracts are always a risk, but Zito's is less of a risk than a lot of other players.

We can hope Zito pitches better than a league-average innings-eater, but I think it's highly unlikely that he's going to perform at any higher level.  His contract is always going to be bad, and I don't think I've said otherwise - but if the market price continues to go up for reliable (not great! just reliable!) starters, I don't think Zito's contract is going to look completely nuts in five years.  Still not good, but not crazy-bad.

by Mel Ott on May 22, 2007 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: A note about Zito
By backloading so many contracts, the Giants have operated akin to families who purchased variable mortgages.  Too often the bill comes due down the line.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Hey Jake, thanks for the effort. I'm sorry you ended up catching so much flak for it, but obviously you generated a lot of discussion, and I'm thinking a lot of folk around here really appreciated the work you put in.

by Roger on May 22, 2007 5:52 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
Absolutely, thanks a lot man.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on May 22, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Brian Sabean Review (Part Four)
You did indeed do a very nice job here, Jake. Keep up the good work.

Sorry to anyone I offended here.

by sharksrog on May 25, 2007 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

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