Morris!

Re: Morris!

Morris and Winn for Abreu and Farnsworth? Any takers? Although it'd take a contract extetion for Abreu to wave his no trade clause

http://giantsoffseason.blogspot.com

by NeifiChicken on May 20, 2007 3:40 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

I would not give Abreu an extension. He is a player in decline. Plus, Farnsworth isn't great either.

Why trade Winn, especially if you aren't going to get prospects? That leaves us with Roberts (healthy? no?), Ortmeier, Lewis, and possibly Schierholtz in the non-Bonds division of the OF. I don't think so. Besides, Winn has a really cheap contract and can actually play CF unlike Abreu.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Winn's contract "really cheap"? He's making $8 and $8.25 million in 08 and 09 respectively.

I love what he's doing right now, but we have no reason to think it can last, and even less to think that he'll come anywhere near approaching his value for the next two years.

That said, trading Winn is really only possible if we become sellers.

Sabean is more likely to become Peter Sellers.

by juanboy on May 20, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Really? If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is "value" for $8M in today's market for an outfielder than can play all three positions and hit around .270 to .285 with sufficient pop and can bat leadoff?

Given Pierre and Matthews both got $9M/yr and $10M/yr, respectively, I'd take Randy Winn over either of them. Maybe I'm alone in this?

by sfgfan on May 21, 2007 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

This is what a farm system is for.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Obviously. But we're not talking about the farm. We're talking about his salary relative to the market. And I say it's cheap.

I'm not saying Randy Winn is some major league superstar, or even a really above average player. He's slightly above average (at his best) and has a decent skillset. In free agency, he probably could yield the same (if not more than) either of those two guys I mentioned.

In an ideal world, of course you'd have a steady stream of players coming up and replacing the ones that have left after their arbitration years. But that just doesn't happen. At least not on a regular basis (unless you're the A's).

Everyone was clamoring for Linden this year, and we all saw where that went. Lewis is hitting like the late 2005 Randy Winn so far, but will that hold? Ortmeier is showing he could be a 4th outfielder right now, but will that hold? Linden looked good late last year too, and we all know how that went.

Just like any other sport, free agency will play a role in building (and maintaining) a team. Because of this, any player on the older side of their arbitration years will yield more money. Randy Winn does will make $8M/yr for the next two years, but that is really cheap if he could just maintain his career numbers.

by sfgfan on May 21, 2007 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

And really expensive if you get the 2006 version. I think I have outlined this in the BS Review thread(s) but deals like Winn's won't kill the frachise, but it doesn't make it better, either.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Agreed, and that is definitely true. Signing any middle-of-the-road outfielder to a $10M/year deal just isn't going to help any team. It's what the market will bear, but it's not what most teams are looking for in terms of help.

I've noted it in the BS Review thread (most recent one) that if I'm going to be paying a lot for an outfielder, I may as well go for the gold and pull in someone useful. Guys like Andruw Jones and Ichiro will yield probably 18 to 22 million per annum this coming offseason, but thats more worth it than paying 10 to 12 million (which will probably be the going rate for average outfielders). That is, unless your team already has guys like Andruw Jones and Ichiro, which the Giants don't.

If I were to do it again, I wouldn't have extended Winn, not for that much. I would have tried to keep the per annum values at around 4 to 6 million. But he would have walked, and thats okay.

by sfgfan on May 21, 2007 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Note that if you are the Yankees, you can do both.
Where was BS before here?

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

what about Winn's no trade clause?? Abreu has fallen out of favor in New York. Why do Giant fans consider all our players crap and everyone else's players solid gold?? We should trade two guys having terrific starts for two guys who have been awful??

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Clearly NeifiChicken is thinking more about getting the Giants into more Dugouts.

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 20, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

A) Abreu is a better defensive OF than Winn
B) Winn's contract is hardly cheap considering his production

http://giantsoffseason.blogspot.com

by NeifiChicken on May 20, 2007 3:50 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Actually, Abreu's not a very good defensive OF at all anymore.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 20, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Abreu hasn't been the same defensively since he crashed into the wall a couple of years ago. Now he shies away from deep flyballs.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Abreu is on the decline, imho. I'd be willing to trade Winn, but we'd have to commit to a real youth movement - and I don't see Brian doing that in San Francisco.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 5:25 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Yeah, I wouldn't do that deal. Abreu isn't that much better than Winn these days - certainly not better enough to get us to the playoffs, so why trade for the much older player?

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 3:53 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Klesko brought the puppy again today.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on May 20, 2007 4:00 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

It explains everything.

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 20, 2007 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

the puppy contributes more than Klesko does.

Tim Lincecum has been freed!

by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2007 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Is Klesko's wife a switch hitter? I'd like to see both sides of her swing if you know what I mean

Whats the difference between Vinnie Choke and a bag of shit? The BAG

by Mordy From Monsey on May 21, 2007 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

isn't the reason that everyone wants to get rid of Morris is to get a big bat and/or get rid of his contract?? Abreu is not a big bat and he makes more than Morris does!! How about someone like the 27 year old Adam Dunn??

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 20, 2007 4:01 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Because Dunn is hella good and any trade for him would probably have to include Cain or Lince

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 20, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

you never know unless you call. We have lots of young pitching NOT named Cain and Lincecum and their pitching staff is pretty much in shambles. They're also out of it and it's only May. They have to be looking to shake things up. They have considered moving Dunn in the past and may do so again.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Abreu is still coming off a near .900 OPS last year. Just because he's slumping, doesnt mean he's done. His power has gone way down for sure, but he still has a tremendous walk rate, 30+ SB potential, above average OF defense, and solid hitting ability. He's the bigest impact bat we could get IMO

http://giantsoffseason.blogspot.com

by NeifiChicken on May 20, 2007 4:02 PM PDT reply actions

Equivalencies

Why does this discussion strike me as equivalent to, "Secretariat! Wins the triple crown! Let's shoot him!"?

"When I think of how many times the Enemy has tried to kill Tyler Walker..."

by multiphasic on May 20, 2007 4:02 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Equivalencies

more like "Sell High!"

Tim Lincecum has been freed!

by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2007 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I loved that cat.

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 20, 2007 4:07 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Grant, I've been watching the games and have been thinking Morris has been pitching pretty damned well - other than when Bochy sent him out to pitch the 7th and he gave up 2 Rs in that 1st game of the sweep in Az.
But, I have been shown my wayward ways. It seems, despite the 5-1 W-L record, the sub 3 ERA, that Morris is really a bum. Something about Peripheraries. See, Grant, you don't have to watch the games, you just look in a book somewhere and if the Peripheraries (no not the island chain) are in decline then the guy is a bum. There is an important corallary: If the pitcher is one signed by Sabean, and the Feriperals are in declination, it is proof not only that the declintion hurler is a bum, but proof positive that Sabean is, always has been, and always will be a bum.
It's been a painful lesson, Grant, just hope I can save you some heartache. But, you need to know, there is evidently some sort of religious experience you have to undergo in order to be worthy of the sacred knowledge, something akin to receiving the tablets (or is it Tablets) from, or in place of, Moses. Good luck, Grant. Hope you don't catch too much derision for your uninformed post.

by allfrank on May 20, 2007 4:08 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

I'm not sure why I'm responding to this, because it feels like all you ever do is try to antagonize and call out other posters on this blog, but here are my thoughts:

The point isn't that anyone has been saying "Morris is a bum." The point is that some of us feel like his performance isn't sustainable if he continued to walk and strikeout batters at the rate he was (in a basically 1:1 ratio). It's not that anyone's saying he's sucked so far. It's just a concern for his future starts.

Today, he had an excellent start that included a 9:2 K/BB ratio. A start like that is what I've been wanting to see from Morris and I really hope he can build on this start and just get better and better.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 20, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

allfrank, I've been watching the games and have been thinking Jamey Wright has been pitching pretty damned well - other than when Alou left him in to take his lumps in that one game against San Diego and he gave up 7 ER.

But, I have been shown my wayward ways. It seems, despite the 5-3 W-L record, the sub 4 ERA, that Wright is really a bum. Something about Peripheraries. See, Grant, you don't have to watch the games, you just look in a book somewhere and if the Peripheraries (no not the island chain) are in decline then the guy is a bum. There is an important corallary: If the pitcher is one signed by Sabean, and the Feriperals are in declination, it is proof not only that the declintion hurler is a bum, but proof positive that Sabean is, always has been, and always will be a bum.

It's been a painful lesson, allfrank, just hope I can save you some heartache. But, you need to know, there is evidently some sort of religious experience you have to undergo in order to be worthy of the sacred knowledge, something akin to receiving the tablets (or is it Tablets) from, or in place of, Moses. Good luck, allfrank. Hope you don't catch too much derision for your uninformed post.

I'm not saying that Wright = Morris, but making fun of strikeouts and walks as an indicator of a pitcher's performance is like making fun of people who carry umbrellas on overcast days.

by Grant Brisbee on May 20, 2007 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I like Grant, he hits home runs for McCovey Chronicles.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on May 20, 2007 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Nice work as always, Grant.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Allfrank, I have had reasonable debates with you where I tried to explain things so you would understand.

But really? You have just retreated into the last gasp position of the statbasher. No, allfrank. We don't watch the games. Those are truly boring. What we like are spreadsheets, stat books, calculators, slide rules... you know, anything but watching the games.

Do you know how retarded that sounds? Do you think the saber-friendly fans here don't watch the games? That we wait until it is over and then pore over the stats and then post here? You have got to be kidding me. I have not known any sabermetric fans who don't watch games. In fact, we are fans. Fanatics, even, who watch tons and tons of games. I have mlb.tv so I can watch the Giants. I also watch tons of other games. I will have the Giants game on my computer and the White Sox or Cubs or Braves on TV. I watch the Tigers on mlb.tv a lot. Suggesting that we don't watch the games is ridiculous. People like Jake and I are on gameday threads - while watching the game - pretty much every day.

So get your head out of your ass with the lame insults. It's pathetic.

About peripherals: How are you going to decide who is good? After watching the game? Yeah, Morris was good today (with good peripherals, I should add). Was he good because he got the win? Was he good because he had a good ERA? Was he good last year with his 4.98 ERA?

How do you know who will be good next game? Next week? Next month? Tell us. Give us your rundown on who will be good. Let us know how a hit-lucky pitcher will be able to keep that up. Give us examples of effective pitchers who walk as many as they strike out. Give us meaningful sample sizes and not one game or one month as "evidence."

I am always open to good arguments, but I will rip bad ones to shreds. So go again. Convince me.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Giant expert Mike Krukow would tell you that the ability to throw a ground ball with any pitch is all you need to be a winner, even if you have poor WHIP and K-BB numbers.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

And the numbers would tell you this ability is quite rare.

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Tell that to Zito!!

Whats the difference between Vinnie Choke and a bag of shit? The BAG

by Mordy From Monsey on May 21, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

NSCEGF, my main point is it is very difficult to evaluate Morris because he was injured last year. So, his ERA, at about 5, is useless as a measure of whether or not he is in decline or not. I object to the conclusion his peripherals are in decline, therefore he is in decline. He had a broken rib last year. I think, although I can't prove it, that effected his performance.
I would say he is an above average #3 SP, and we have him at a below market value price. I don't think Sabean gets particularly praised or criticized for this move; it is a positive move, as it brings a guy with a real competitive attitude and above average skills to the team, for a below average price. He benefits the team not only by taking the ball every 5th day, giving us a chance to win, but also in his effect on other pitchers on the team (of which we have many).
So, it is possible he declines this year? Sure, but that is true of any player. Is it more likely because of his strike out rate? Well, it bears consideration, but no more than the fact he pitched much of last year with a serious injury. I personally think he is more likely to be better this year than last; and I think assessment of his stats has to fold in an assessment of the impact of the injury on last year's numbers. In otherwords, I don't think, in Morris' case, stats, even putative predictive ones are particularly relevant. I poke fun becasue the stats are quoted in such solemn seriousness - and yet not a one of us has had the benefit of talking to him, watching his ST routine, or getting any sort of scouting report.

by allfrank on May 21, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions

In Other News...

With all the bickering going on in this thread (after a win no less), I'd like to point out that not only does Ryan Klesko have a magical puppy, he has a really hot wife:

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on May 20, 2007 4:30 PM PDT reply actions

Re: In Other News...

boing!

Tim Lincecum has been freed!

by nostocksjustbonds on May 20, 2007 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Analysis of Mrs. Klesko...

Statheads: She's maintained her 34-24-34 numbers for several years, with no downward trend indicated. Her Batting Average on Hunks In Play remains high, so she hasn't been just hit lucky. Her value lies not in that she's beautiful, but that she has so few flaws. And fundamentally, the name of the game is avoiding flaws.

Non statheads: She's beautiful.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 5:38 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Analysis of Mrs. Klesko...

The debate of artificial enhancement comes up yet again. Unlike Bonds' alleged use of performance enhancers, most men don't give a frig if a woman is artificially enhanced.

Hm.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2007 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions

This gent enjoys the pencil test

Living in LA, there is no shortage of ladies who have enhanced themselves. I have had the luxury to be with women who have and not have had the uplifting experience. This gent prefers a natural woman each day of the week.

by wilriv21 on May 21, 2007 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: This gent enjoys the pencil test

You win the prize.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2007 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: In Other News...

Damn, I never should have left her!!

Whats the difference between Vinnie Choke and a bag of shit? The BAG

by Mordy From Monsey on May 21, 2007 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions

Does he still have said wife?

If so, does she know that his biography page on the Giants website claims he is single?

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.16 ERA

by EliminateMe on May 21, 2007 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Does he still have said wife?

Maybe they aren't married but she's been at the games a lot this year.

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on May 21, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: In Other News...

Y'all have no idea how difficult it was not oogle my adpted son's wife the first time he brought her home.

But then I saw him oogling the future Mrs. Goofus and said, "Screw it!"

I got a fever...and the only prescription is more cow bell and more Ryan Klesko! (303/370/394 as of 5/13/07)

by Goofus on May 21, 2007 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: In Other News...

Anyone else concerned that Goofus is taking this whole "adoption" thing a little too seriously?

by Evan on May 21, 2007 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: In Other News...

As the creator of the Adopt-a-Giant program, I think he's entitled to a little mad scientist kind of obsession with his baby.

But how far is too far? That, I don't know.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Grant, all my trade fantasies involve Salma Hayek and it's not baseball players we exchange. I think it's you who needs some different fantasies. ;)

On topic, I'd trade Morris for a bat, but not Abreu. My baseball fantasy still involves Andruw Jones - and no strip clubs are included. Now, if the Braves would just collapse.

by Sayhey on May 20, 2007 4:49 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Andruwoo

Halleluia! We Has Risen!

by victor frankenstein on May 20, 2007 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Andruwooo is KILLING my fantasy team. He was 0-5 with 5 Ks today! 5 Ks!!!

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 20, 2007 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

All swinging.

by English Professor on May 20, 2007 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Salma is pregnant and about to marry a very old very rich man. I can't tell you how disappointed I am in her.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Hmmm, I'm not that into Abreu. My fantasies center on Scott Rolen and Mark Texiera. Our blackest of black holes are at first and third.

Oh yeah, have I mentioned lately that Matt Morris threw a ball to me and my son in spring training?

by Dan from NM on May 20, 2007 4:51 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Have you seen Rolen's contract?? He makes 12-14 million every year from now through 2010. Way too much money for an always injured player who can't get along with any of his managers. Texiera is a different story though, although that would be a hard one to get done with Blalock now out for 3 months. I also have the feeling that Tex would slip greatly out of that Texas ballpark.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Does he shave that soul patch...thing...in the dark , or what?
Would he hit better if it were centered?

Halleluia! We Has Risen!

by victor frankenstein on May 20, 2007 4:56 PM PDT reply actions

Keeps pitching like this and the expense

of his contract will be worth it. Excellent game by Morris. He worked very well with Alfonzo. Who knows, if Morris continues to pitch well, there may just be a market with Morris's name on it.

by wilriv21 on May 20, 2007 5:16 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Morris is still only 33. He's been around for 10 years and he's 5-1. If he keeps pitching well, the Giants could get a lot for him. Especially from the Yanks. Although, if I'm Sabean, the way he's pitching, I request a lot if he's trade bait.

Stan Conte is a traitor!!

by K on May 20, 2007 6:17 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

The Yankees no longer have the need for a starter with Roger Clemens coming in a couple of weeks. They also might be out of it by then and looking for younger players. They might be interested in Noah Lowry though. How about Noah Lowry for Robinson Cano??

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Some of our more stat oriented folks can correct me on this but wasn't Morris one of the unluckiest pitchers in the league last year, however they measure those things? What we're seeing this year is a lot closer to what we should expect. And everything I see suggests he's a solid three or four pitcher who's good in the clubhouse and shouldn't be traded unless it's part of a package for a really good hitter. Dunn is my favorite of the names suggested here so far, assuming Texeira is out of reach.

by NearestNorwich on May 20, 2007 6:44 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

His BABIP was .290, pretty standard.

His LOB% was quite low though at 65.1%, and since he doesn't strike out guys a lot this probably played a part in it. This has been decreasing though for 5 years so while some of it can be attributed to luck some of it is probably his decline as well.

His HR/FB% was actually quite low at 9.5%, some of that can be attributed to the park but I think it'll come back up soon, especially since its at 7.9% now.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 20, 2007 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

So in summary, no he wasn't really that unlucky, and with his current K/9 and BB/9 peripherals (despite todays nice game) he is pretty lucky right now.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 20, 2007 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

actually a normal HR/FB is about 10%, so that number isnt really that low, even if you compare it to his own average which is 11.3%, its not all that low, and that average was largely increased by a very fluky 16.8% in 2002...this combined with AT&T being one of the best pitchers parks in the majors means that his HR rate is in no way lucky or unsustainably low

the rest of it, i agree with

by Mike @ McCovey Chronicles on May 20, 2007 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

He might be referring to Morris's FIP in 2006, which was only 4.56 compared to his 4.98 actual ERA, so he pitched in some bad luck, based on sabermetrics DIPS principles, which FIP is derived from.

Go Giants!!!

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on May 20, 2007 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I guess I'm a desenter...I think we should keep Morris. Why break up our good starting pitching??

by whataboutbob on May 21, 2007 12:21 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

I don't want to break up the staff either. But I think most of us realize our GM is going to do something drastic and/or stupid to try to upgrade the offense, and we'd prefer it if he stopped trading our future in order to do so. Morris's contract isn't totally outrageous, especially to a desperate contender at the deadline. And his value right now is high and will probably remain that way up to the deadline barring injury or severe regression. He's our most valuable tradeable commodity right now and I hope it stays that way. If only to prevent a Sanchez/Lowry trade and so we can win games.

The bright side: Brian Sabean should be out of a job in a few months.

by Punch Rockgroin on May 21, 2007 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I'm with you. Enjoy the good things while they last.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2007 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Morris over nine starts in May and June last year:

64 innings; 5-3; 2.67 ERA; and even had a nice little 44:18 K-to-Walk ratio. Matt Morris: Extreme mediocrity, punctuated by short bursts of goodness/luck. Like most the rest of average major leaguers.

If we can ditch his contract, which nine starts ago I think we all agreed was a trainwreck, great. If we can get anybody back for him, I won't argue with it.

Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz

by lyricalkiller on May 21, 2007 7:22 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

I didn't think it was a trainwreck. Next to Zito's contract, it looks downright restrained. Also, I'm not sure why you think the second half of last season was a return to his baseline... he's pitched much better than that his entire career, including now. I think it's at least as likely his poor performance was due to pitching through injury. I haven't followed his career closely, but I think extreme mediocrity is what comes in short bursts, and overall he's a good #3 pitcher.

by neurofarm on May 21, 2007 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

He's not the same pitcher now that he was in his glory days. Since his surgery after 2004, he's put up fielding-independent ERAs of 4.17, 4.56, and now 4.49. That puts him around the 30th percentile of NL starters.

I suppose there's a chance that Morris could become consistent with his command and pitch all the time the way he does in his good stretches, but I'd much rather take the chance that Bobby Abreu can return to form.

by Evan on May 21, 2007 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I agree he's not the pitcher he was five years ago. But are you saying his fielding-independent ERA is 4.49 right now? With a 2.93 regular ERA? I don't know how the fielding-independence part is calculated, but it seems like quite a jump.

A good hitter like Abreu would probably be better for this team at the moment, considering the depth of the rotation and the lackluster hitting, but Morris is still a very valuable pitcher. I thought "extreme mediocrity" was an overly harsh description in the earlier post.

by neurofarm on May 21, 2007 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Yup. It's a big difference, but it's not that unusual this early in the year. As time goes on, he'll either get his peripherals more in line with his ERA (à la last night) or his ERA will go up.

There are different forms of FIP, but basically it's calculated by using the pitcher's actual K, BB, and HR rates but applying a league-average hit rate, and then figuring out how many runs such a pitcher could be expected to give up on average.

by Evan on May 21, 2007 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions

Extreme mediocrity

ERA+ the past three years: 89, 104, 90. I just think it's misleading to imagine Morris has any of that 20-win magic left in him -- left it on the operating table, looks like. He's an average pitcher, slightly worse probably, and aging.

As for his contract not being a trainwreck in light of Zito's deal -- Zito's deal is a trainwreck. So, there's that.

Hey, it's not that I don't like Morris. I'm strangely sanguine when he starts. But the guy is a lot more likely to lose value the more he starts, and his contract alone makes him trade bait in my mind.

Saving countless runs with my Brian Horwitz

by lyricalkiller on May 21, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Extreme mediocrity

Point of interest: it also means bloody.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I agree with keeping Morris. He's also a leader for guys like Cain and Lincecum. I get the impression he helps the younger pitchers more than someone like Zito, and when Zito DOES help somebody, it's more likely a fellow lefty like Lowry. The only way I trade Morris or Lowry is if you get a reasonably young guy who will be here for a long time. That's why I like Dunn and Texeira as well. I might give up Morris for Richie Sexson, but that would be very risky, and they would have to equal out the salaries. I wouldn't pay extra to trade a pitcher who is pitching well for a hitter who is in the midst of a major slump, but if it didn't increase payroll I would take the chance that Sexson will get hot the second half just like he did last year.

Armando "Houdini" Benitez countdown to 300 saves: 287

by rxmeister on May 21, 2007 7:26 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

That's odd. I thought Morris shaved his whiskers in the off-season.

Jesse Foppert: Welcome home, my son. And meet your adopted brother, Kelvin Pichardo. He's from the Dominican Republic.

by leftymalo on May 21, 2007 9:21 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

A friend and I made up super hero/action hero alter egos for most of the Giants during the game Saturday. I've conceded that Cap'n Jack is truly a special agent, but in addition to his secret double agent powers he is also a ninja.

As for Morris we aren't sure what his super power is.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2007 9:39 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Whatever it is, it probably curves.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

WARNING: Conjecture and Speculation follow, grains of salt avail
What I like about Morris is that he really HATES to lose. Not just when he's pitching either. We just need to hypnotize him every start into thinking that he needs to stop a 3-game losing streak.

That, and I think he knows he is about 4 on the SP depth chart, and that drives him

by zenbitz on May 21, 2007 9:54 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Normally I wouldn't even consider voting for a cat for president, but seriously that is the most confident looking cat I've ever seen. And considering the current crop of candidates.....

by Stoned Slacker on May 21, 2007 9:58 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Plus he's starred in a movie with Burt Reynolds and prefers 9Lives over inferior brands such as Friskies.

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 21, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

Would the Yankees take Zito if we threw in about $20M?

by mxmob33 on May 21, 2007 10:00 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Abreu reminds me way to much of Brian Giles. I don;t like either one of them.

Jack Mustachner

by The Thrill on May 21, 2007 10:09 AM PDT reply actions

Any idea

why "Tiny Tim" has not emerged as a nickname for our superstar in the making?

You will Succumb! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on May 21, 2007 10:29 AM PDT reply actions

Re: Any idea

Because Tim the Enchanter pwns it.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 21, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Any idea

What Jponry said, and Tiny Tim is take by this handsome man:

If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on May 21, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Any idea

Because Tiny Tim was crippled and died.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2007 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

interesting that morris and lowry now have the 2 lowest ERAs in the giants rotation... they are supposed to be the #4 and #5 right? well that could either be looked upon as a bad thing (as in why arent cain and especially zito doing better?) or as a great thing (i dream of all 5 starting pitchers ending the season with sub 3.50 ERAs.?!)

MLB Blog

by bigshowbaseball on May 21, 2007 12:29 PM PDT reply actions

Re: Morris!

Cain has been doing quite well. Unfortunately the offense has not in his starts, otherwise he'd probably have at least three more wins right now.

Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on May 21, 2007 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I also have to say that I think this "fielding independent ERA" is a bunch of nonsense. Completely discounting hits allowed an important measure unless it's a home run allowed? That's insane. I'm just not buying it. I did some research on it just now - the idea that opponent batting average is completely arbitrary and the work of the defense is just ridiculous. This stat is clearly going to overemphasize the importance of walks and strikeouts. There have been successful pitchers who did not have great strikeout or great walk ratios.

MLB Blog

by bigshowbaseball on May 21, 2007 3:17 PM PDT reply actions

Of course there have been without either

Can you point me to anyone who hasn't had both?

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on May 21, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I don't buy completely into fielding independent statistics, but there's no doubt that it's very difficult for a pitcher to succeed in the long term if he's got a 1:1 K/BB ratio or a K-rate under 5 or a BB-rate over 4.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 21, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I think the one of the more influential stats to a pitcher's success is BB/9. I'm sure there are plenty of decently successful pitchers that have poor K/9. However, I think putting people on base for free can't do anything but really hurt your chances of success.

Most of the 2007 Giants pitching staff is a testament to that.

I do agree that FIP is definitely not a good measurement of pitching performance. It is, however, a somewhat capable "overview" provider for a large number of pitchers in history.

by sfgfan on May 21, 2007 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Re: Morris!

I don't believe all walks are equal. A walk issued with 2 outs is much less potentially damaging than a lead off walk, unless it heralds the pitcher's loss of command.
Looking at Morris game histories, he has been very consistent. He gives up about a hit an inning. Where he has been effective is in getting the first hitter out and, often the second hitter. Many of his hits and/or walks, thus, have come with two outs. Next, he has avoided the big inning. Of his 61 IP, he has given up more than 1 run only 4 times. In St. Lo, in one of the few times he let the first two hitters on (1b, BB) it was followed up by an error, scoring 1 run and putting runner on 2d and 3d, 0 outs. The next 2 outs scored runs, but he gave up a 2 run jack to Puhols. This is the only really stressful inning he has had. The other tree were each 2 run innings (altho he had 2 two run innings in his loss in Az). I think this shows a certain amount of steadiness and pitching skill. He doesn't panic with runners on, doesn't start nibbling and walking guys. He continues to pitch the same - and, I think, thereby gives up a run but avoids a big inning. In other words, despite his loss of velocity, he has learned to pitch, and he keeps his nerves calm so he can continue ton produce and continue to throw quality pitches. Wouldn't we love to see J Sanchez learn that?

by allfrank on May 21, 2007 5:28 PM PDT reply actions