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Around SBN: Jim Irsay: We Can Make It Work With Peyton Manning

Bleah.

As a joke, the I'm-taping-the-game-so-don't-tell-me-score-gag has been done. "Seinfeld", Fever Pitch, and "Scrubs" all did it well, so I won't bore you with the details of my day. All I wanted was to get home without knowing the final score, and I accomplished that after several trials. But when I got there, right before I was about to start the game, I picked up a text message from my phone:

"Gettin ugly"

Then you have to start wondering what constitutes "Gettin ugly." Is gettin ugly something that you could possibly text someone in the ninth inning of a tie game? Or does it mean that the Giants are blowing the other team out soooooo bad that you actually start to worry about the fragile psyches of the other team?

Nope. It means what it means. Gettin ugly. Willie McGee in a diaper ugly. So it begins.

  1. Barry Zito doesn't look odd in a Giants uniform. It works. Ryan Klesko looks freaky. I like the signing, but it doesn't work. As long as he keeps hitting into first-pitch double plays, though, he'll eventually fit in just fine.
  2. Pedro Feliz is still my least favorite player to watch from the past decade. The line between rational dislike and irrational hatred is now completely indistinguishable in my own mind. Is Cla Meredith good enough to get other hitters to chase that 3-2 sinker nine feet off the plate? Or is Feliz just that bad and there is no hope and the team is doomed and I can't believe this team really plans to give him 600 plate appearances? Feliz is a complete failure of imagination on the part of any general manager who thinks he could be of any use to a starting lineup.
  3. Heath Bell would probably be our best reliever.
  4. The game in summary: The bullpen wasn't good, the lineup was awful, the bazillion-dollar ace was okay-not-great, and I don't like watching Pedro Feliz play baseball. That has the potential to be a season in summary.
  5. I hate the overreacting that comes with Opening Day, but I can't help it. Wipe the pain from our mind like a fifth of scotch, Matt Cain.

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Re: Bleah.
Rich Aurlia hitting 5th vs. Jake Peavy was a horrible decision by Bochy. They brought in Klesko to play against guys exactly like Peavy. Not that it would have changed the outcome of the game.

Did anybody really expect anything else out of this bullpen? It has been neglected by sabean for the last 2 years.  

http://giantsbaseballblog.blogspot.com/

http://giantsbaseballblog.blogspot.com/

by trecole696 on Apr 3, 2007 7:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Most of us who when forced to be rational have picked the Giants to finish no higher than third in the division can't get too upset by today. There's no question that Peavy is better than Zito when both are on their game and that the Giants' lineup is going to disappoint us more often than not. But that doesn't mean it won't be an interesting year with great moments at the Phone, not to mention a more intriguing draft day than in the past. Baseball's back! I'm looking forward to tomorrow.

by NearestNorwich on Apr 3, 2007 7:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
The thing I hated about today was it looked like they where playing a meaningless game at the end of september, or the end of spring training or something. They didn't have any urgency today. They looked exactly like last years version.

http://giantsbaseballblog.blogspot.com/

http://giantsbaseballblog.blogspot.com/

by trecole696 on Apr 3, 2007 7:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Some people see the glass as half-empty. I see the glass as the 0-2 Los Angeles Dodgers.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Apr 3, 2007 7:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
And another O-fer from Juan Pierre.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 3, 2007 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I got a kick out of that too but the box score took some of the joy out of it. Perfect performance by their bullpen, including a three K inning for Broxton.  

by NearestNorwich on Apr 3, 2007 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
The man is scary. In a bad sorta way if you have to face him. A freekin monster.

On a cheerier note.  Just watched Jorge Julio face 6 batters from the Nats. Gave up 5 hits and recorded 1 out in giving up 3 runs in B9 blowing a save and losing 7 to 6 to the Expos, the worst team in baseball.

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Apr 4, 2007 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I was expecting Randy Johnson.
Mandowear | comics | Sugarman FTW

by Natto on Apr 3, 2007 7:44 PM PDT reply actions  

The Italian Motorcycle Guy...
...from The Gumball Rally:

"What's behind me...is not important."

Beat on the brat with a baseball bat.

by victor frankenstein on Apr 3, 2007 8:07 PM PDT reply actions  

That is really bizarre.....
but I think of that quote all the time.  He says it as he rips off the rear view mirror (BTW, that was Raul Julia, in one of his first movie roles).  Who knew a 1976 exploitation film would have such a lasting cultural and philosophical impact on us?

It also reminds me of a John Wooden quote, where he mentioned that he NEVER prepared for his opponent.  Only worked on his team's execution.

I don't know if any of this applies to the Giants, however.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Apr 4, 2007 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Today sucked
and it feels worse because we waited all winter for something meaningful and finally a meaningful game took place. It is meaningful in that it counts for exactly 1/162nd of the season.

I know for me this game has a crash feeling to it because I was so amped up going into it. But baseball is a long season. Best to stay at an even keel...until the drinking problem resurfaces, anyway.

I'll completely forget about today's game when Matt Cain throws his first pitch tomorrow. I'm already forgetting about it. Cain is the team's best pitcher. If he gets any offense behind him, he could win 17 or 18 games this year. And that is something to look forward to.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 3, 2007 8:10 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Today sucked
Matt certainly COULD win 17 or 18 games this season, but many don't realize just how hard a task that is.  Not a single National League pitcher won as many as 17 games last season.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Today sucked
not only that, but he's the only really hard throwing guy in our rotation.  I'd love to see it happen, and I'm sure if it does, we need to praise Bochy because it didn't seem like Flippy knew what the hell to do with our entire pitching staff.  
I wouldn't urinate on Jason Schmidt if he were on fire.

by Zacky Farms 45 on Apr 4, 2007 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Today sucked
Bochy has a quicker hook than Alou, so I wouldn't expect him to benefit his starting pitchers insofar as W's. His approach may result in more team wins (IMO, it will), but also in fewer decisions for starters.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Apr 4, 2007 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Um
that will work really, uh, ::cough:: well with our pen.
"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Today sucked
it certainly is a lot tougher than it used to be, especially that guys only get about 33-35 starts if they're healthy.
We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 4, 2007 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Today sucked
I'm sure the bullpen and the offense will have their share of win-steals from Cain and other Giants pitchers, too.

by sfgfan on Apr 4, 2007 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I thought Zito looked pretty good.  He was obviously nervous at first, but he seemed to be finding his rhythm right when he was pulled.  

I liked what I saw out of Sanchez.  Other than his wild pitch, he was around the strike zone.  The pitch that gave up the walk was a perfect strike, I thought.  Only time will tell, but I'm guessing today was just a lot of bad luck for him.  

Correia seemed to be hanging either a breaking ball or fastball high up in the zone.  Also the gun showed his fastball topping out at 89 -- too low for an effective short relief pitcher.  

Feliz looked awful.  He might be a very nice guy but he has no business starting at 3rd base in the major leagues.  We had to listen to all the bullshit about how he'd changed his approach, how he'd learned disipline, blah, blah, blah.  The guy had a lower OBP than batting average in the spring.  I don't think in his case it's an issue of discipline.  Most people cannot tell the difference between a slider and a fastball in 2/10 of a second, and Feliz is no different.  Too bad major leaguers aren't most people.  

A lot of bad breaks today.  How the G-men hit against a stud like Peavy isn't really a good indication of how good or bad this team is.  Better luck Manana.    

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Apr 3, 2007 8:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
How the G-men hit against a stud like Peavy isn't really a good indication of how good or bad this team is.

If the team is anything like it was last year when getting dominated by studs like Livan "62-on-the-gun" Hernandez and Jamie "I-don't-need-no-stinking-62-on-the-gun" Moyer seemed like everyday fare, I'm not even sure if Peavy had to be on his game today to do what he did.

Evidence that Peavy was off his game: Didn't go 9.

I'll be optimistic as soon as I wake up in the morning, but right now this team looks a heck of a lot like last year's group.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Apr 3, 2007 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Did we knock Peavy out , was he off , or did Pads mgmt protect their man?
Beat on the brat with a baseball bat.

by victor frankenstein on Apr 3, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Well, we didn't exactly knock him out, but he did finish with just about 96 pitches, so he probably only had one more inning before he'd be pulled in a close game anyway.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Apr 3, 2007 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Does anyone think it was the gun?  Even Peavy was hardly above 92, 93.  And Sanchez was in the 80s.  Either this gun is accurate and all these guys throw less hard than advetised - or the Peavy = 95, 96 sotries are from a different and more accurate (?) gun.

by allfrank on Apr 3, 2007 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I thought the gun was reading slow too.  Zito was between 80 and 84 most of the time with the FB.  I thought he at least got into the high 80s.  Sanchez topped out at 91 (I think), and Correia was also in the high 80s most of the time.  Also, Peavy was hovering around 92 most of the game.  

It definitely like the gun was reading low.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Apr 3, 2007 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I saw Peavy hit 95, 96 mph a number of times on the gun yesterday...  Maybe it was just reading slow for the Giants pitchers...

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Does anyone else feel exactly the same as one year ago today?  Peavy dominated the Giants on opening day.  Straight owned.  After a full winter and spring with bated breath, we finally get our first exciting game and Peavy comes in to demolish us.  I actually feel a little LESS disappointed this year only because WE WEREN'T EVEN CLOSE to competing.  Just compare:

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20060403&content_id=1382356&vkey=wrapup 2005&fext=.jsp&team=away

Well, actually, now looking at that box score, it's pretty close to the same...hmmm..well, I just know I feel less disappointed this time because we seemed to play like the Royals.  Wait.  They played better than us yesterday.   Ugh.

-d

by dw4848 on Apr 3, 2007 8:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Humm...

Zito works slow

Pedro for the record laidoff the first 2 pitches of the season, before swinging at a slider away in the dirt...

Barry stealing a bag is scary, I worry about his knees

It was both nice and sad to see all the oldtimers.

Lots and lots of cellphones (shall we ban them?) no chance at AT@T ...

Offense we don't need no stinking offense.

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Apr 3, 2007 8:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
"It was both nice and sad to see all the oldtimers."

Indeed...I was watching on television and actually lurched out of my seat in shock upon seeing John Montefusco barrel through the gate. He looked like a barcolounger upholstered in a Giants jersey. Then I had to wipe a tear away when Willie Mac reached for those crutches. I knew it was coming, since I had heard about his kneee problems, but to see him actually need assistance was pretty stirring.

For just pennies a day, you too can make a difference in the life of a Giants player...like Kevin Correia.

by VidaWantsYourCar on Apr 3, 2007 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I'm happy Pedro didn't swing at the first pitch.  When I cast my vote, I was surprised to see that mine was the first that Pedro would TAKE -- although many others agreed later in the voting.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Pedro's inner monolgue:

"I'll show all those bastards that say I won't lay off the 1st pitch!  Ha!  I'll really show them by laying off the 2nd pitch, too! Double ha!  There, now that that's out of the way, I'll go back to my old hacktastic ways for the rest of the season."

you can't handle the truth or Ryan Klesko!

by Goofus on Apr 4, 2007 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

And for anyone that went to the game...
... a big F YOU to the ownership for getting rid of EVERY PARKING LOT with the exception of Lot A (Season Ticket Parking Pass holders).  I got to the field 2 hours before first pitch, and was forced to park underneath The Moscone Center and walk a mile to the park.  

Weak parking situation.
Weak bullpen.
Weak lineup.  
Weak.
Weak.
Weak.

PS:  Watching Zito wasn't that bad.  He could have gone longer, but they opted to pinch-hit for him the inning after Fleas' booted double play ball.  Not only was the run that scored unearned, but it sure was a momentum killer.  Which further concreted my hatred for Pedro.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Apr 3, 2007 10:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
What's this?  What did they do to the other parking lots?  Were they just being used for something else or are they off limits for the whole year?
Proud adoptive papa of the one, the only, Omar Vizquel.

by PacBellBoozer on Apr 3, 2007 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
I don't think the Giants own any of those lots.  To their credit, they sent out an email that parking would suck (especially day games) this season and that public transit is the way to go.  If you had to park at Moscone, I guess taking BART or Caltrain would have been about the same walk.

I guess there's also some parking available in 1 or 2 of the piers over by the McCovey statue.

you can't handle the truth or Ryan Klesko!

by Goofus on Apr 4, 2007 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
That's complete balls about the parking. I take BART into the city and walk to the ballpark anyway but if I had a car the parking situation would annoy the everloving snot out of me.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 4, 2007 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
That's one of the immutable laws of a downtown ballpark, folks. Go to Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, Camden Yards to some extent... they weren't built in the suburbs or in industrial parts of town with lots of parking space. I drive almost always, but I have some places I check first & I try to get there early so I can score them.  Take public transit to downtown ballparks, or else don't complain that parking is difficult.
Angels fly because they take Brian Sabean lightly.

by Mayor of 311 on Apr 4, 2007 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
That's all well and good, but what about those of us that believe in a well and proper tailgate session before the games.  I've shown up as early as 9:30 for a 1:00 game.  I'm also from out of town, so driving is pretty much the only option, especially if I want to be "festive" before and after the game.  
Proud adoptive papa of the one, the only, Omar Vizquel.

by PacBellBoozer on Apr 4, 2007 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
The point is that something was taken away.  If there had been as little parking from the beginning, I don't think it would have drawn as much reaction.  People would quickly have realized they needed to take public transit to the park.

But after seven years, they have established habits, which many of them will now need to change.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
Uh, yankee stadium is in the south bronx.  It's not that you can't park there...

by zenbitz on Apr 4, 2007 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
Is there even anything left in the South Bronx that hasn't been burned out?  
Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Apr 4, 2007 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: And for anyone that went to the game...
Jose's Water Pipe and Paraphernalia shop maybe?
Proud adoptive papa of the one, the only, Omar Vizquel.

by PacBellBoozer on Apr 4, 2007 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I'm with NearestNorwich in that we're likely seeing the tip of the iceberg, an iceberg representing a sub.500 team, today facing the likely best team in the division (and my personal pick to win the Series). However, that's based on what we perceive now.

One month from now, we might notice the pitching staff has been putting up solid start after start.

Two months from now, we might take note of Padres' injury woes that allow all the other teams in the division to hang in, within four games of the lead.

Three and a half months from now, we might all rejoice as Sabean pulls off a F---in' A Trade, getting Adam Dunn to play first base, Ryan Freel to play right field, and Aaron Harang for the rotation. (A guy can dream...)

After all, nobody expects the Royals to win more than 75 games this season, no matter what Gil Meche did on Opening Day.

David
Sportszilla -- Kickass Sports Writing
McC adoptee: EME

by David A. Arnott on Apr 4, 2007 12:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
The biggest problem the Giants have regarding trades is that they have precious little they can afford to give up.

I saw what I felt was an intriguing analysis of the 2007 National League.  It contained both good news and bad from a Giants standpoint.

The good news was that the analysis said it had been a long time since there seemed to be so much parity.  It stated that aside from the Nationals and probably the Marlins, every other NL team had a shot.  That's good for the Giants, since few observers would rank them at the top of the National League.  It means that despite not being one of the elite teams, they have a shot -- since none of the NL teams looks to be truly elite.

But then the analysis dropped the hammer.  It said that the best NL teams would likely be determined by their farm systems -- having players who can either step in or be traded to break the logjam of team parity.  The Giants will indeed likely benefit from Tim Lincecum this season, and either Billy Sadler and/or Brian Wilson could contribute, but the Giants have very little trading fodder.

Yesterday Brian Sabean indicated the Giants could have had Richie Sexson.  I don't know how much the Giants would have had to give to get him, but they would likely have been better served to spend money on a power hitter than on Barry Zito.

That the Giants could have had Sexson and didn't likely indicates a healthy reluctance to mortgage their future for today.  Unfortunately, it also likely dooms the Giants to mediocrity for the rest of this decade.

That the Giants embarassingly were shut out in the season opener -- and at home, no less -- really doesn't mean much.  That the Giants have virtually no young hitting truly does.

Angel Villalona, we Giants fans need you.  You have no more than one year to develop.  :)

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bullet points
--Barry Zito reminded me of Kirk Rueter -- and not in a good way.
--Pedro Feliz (expletive deleted)
--How about flipping Feliz and Winn in the order so we don't have three righties in a row?
--I was excited, wearing my Giants 2007 Spring Training T-Shirt and everything, but the game, well, it was boring.
--Seven years? Really?

by Dan from NM on Apr 4, 2007 12:40 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
See, me, I'm only ever reminded of Kirk Rueter in a good way.

Considering Zito's April history, I thought it was a pretty good start.

What are the chances that Feliz is already out of that job? Maybe keeping Niekro/Sweeney was strategy for the "crap, Feliz is worse than ever, isn't he?" thing that Bochy and Sabean must have felt during spring training. I know, I know... the chances are right around zero. But a guy can dream.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Apr 4, 2007 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Maybe keeping Niekro/Sweeney was strategy for the "crap, Feliz is worse than ever, isn't he?" thing that Bochy and Sabean must have felt during spring training.

Since Feliz re-signed as a free agent this offseason, I don't think the Giants can trade him until May 15. No idea what the DFA rules are.

David
Sportszilla -- Kickass Sports Writing
McC adoptee: EME

by David A. Arnott on Apr 4, 2007 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
I'm pretty sure they could DFA him now. Wouldn't eliminate any cash outlay, though.
"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
I'm thinking maybe that they are doing with Fleas what they are doing with Mando....

Which is giving them the month of April to save their jobs. I'm kinda thinkin that the next 20 games are "probationary" and management is hoping for Wilson to get his stuff together.

Maybe like you say, it plays out with Fleas out of a job, Aurelia to 3rd, Klesko/Niekro/ 1b, Wilson gets his command back while Mando pulls a Jorge Julio.

I kinda think that is Plan A.

Plan C is for Sabaen to shoot himself because there is no Plan B

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Apr 4, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Zito has been a glorified Kirk Rueter for the last 3 seasons. The Giants knew exactly what they were getting.

by mxmob33 on Apr 4, 2007 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
If the Giants truly knew exactly what they were getting, why did they spend $126 million on a pitcher worth half that?  My sense is that they were hoping the change of leagues would benefit Barry, which it still might.

But when you give the biggest pitching contract in history to a guy, you probably would like to get someone who is in the top 10 pitchers in the game.  In reality, Barry is no better than the third-best pitcher the Giants have.  Really, would YOU trade either Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain for Barry?  I certainly wouldn't.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
My feeling: the $ is ridiculous, but Zito is worth having. If I'm going to care about the $, then it will ruin the game for me, because it's insane and wrong, and not just in Barry's case. If you really want to focus on the $, then go ahead, drive yourself nuts.
"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
I really don't care how much the Giants spend on one player.  What I DO care about is that if they overpay, it will detract from the overall quality of their roster, since ultimately there will be less to spend at another position(s).

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
And if things work out we're going to have two VERY cheap aces in less than a year (best case scenario), so think of that contract as balancing the economic scales.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Apr 4, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Sorry.  That logic doesn't fly.  Let's suppose you own two rentals that are paying off very well because your initial investment was low.  Should you now buy another rental for twice what it is worth in order to avoid having to pay taxes?

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

How did taxes get into this?
sharksrog, I knew that Petan Magobean was not a good businessperson the moment I read the quote about not wanting to "humiliate" Bonds with an offer lower than 15(20) million. Right.

That's like going into a hole-in-the-wall restaurant , eating really, really good food, and then refusing to pay the $5 they want to charge you, instead insisting on $20 because you don't want to humiliate the chef.

"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Well, I was trying to be pretty tongue in cheek. I guess nothing in my sentence actually shows that, so my bad.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Apr 4, 2007 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
People are being too harsh on Zito after yesterday's game.  He didn't pitch a complete game shutout, but if he hadn't been inexplicably pinch hit for, he would have probably gone six solid innings allowing just two earned runs.  On a team with a halfway decent offense, that's usually good enough to win.  If you want to complain about opening day (and who doesn't) there were much bigger issues than Zito's performance.

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
a voice of sanity cries out.
I adopted Barry Bonds

by BondsApologist on Apr 4, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
"inexplicably pinch hit for"?  I dunno about that.  The sub made perfect sense to me.  Why have the $125 Million man embaras himself at the plate when Lance Neikro will do that for practically nothing.  
Proud adoptive papa of the one, the only, Omar Vizquel.

by PacBellBoozer on Apr 4, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Showcase for Lance
Niekro walked away after that miserable performance, grumbling to himself about how it would have been easier to be waiver wired than make the team by his fingernails and then be so overmatched by Peavy's nasty stuff.

Same thing the fans were grumbling.

by Moggeee on Apr 4, 2007 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Well he hasn't pitched a complete game since 2004 so I don't think anyone was expecting that. More than anything, I think it was finally the first dose of Zito reality for Giants fans. Yesterday's performance was pretty much what you get out of him. Like Grant said, "Okay, not great".

by mxmob33 on Apr 4, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
I agree with you about not overreacting to what wasn't really a bad outing by Barry Zito.  What I would question is how you know that Barry was likely to pitch a scoreless sixth.  

Yes, he threw three scoreless innings in his five yesterday and will likely throw more scoreless innings this season than not.  But the first two hitters coming up in the Padres sixth inning were Adrian Gonzalez and Josh Bard.  The two previous innings in which both had batted were the two innings in which the Padres DID score against Barry.  Specifically what did you expect to be different about the third time Barry faced them?

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Of course, there's no way to know how Zito would have fared against those two hitters, my theory was:

He was just coming off of his best inning of the night, and hadn't even thrown 90 pitches.  The chances that he would have pitches a scoreless inning seemed higher than the chances that the bullpen would pitch a scoreless inning, and with a runner on first, you could have had Zito bunt.  A productive out, as opposed to Niekro's 3-pitch K, then another inning from a pitcher who seemed to be finding his groove.

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
I suspect Bochy was worried that Zito wouldn't be able to get the bunt down. He didn't want to take the chance that Zito would thus embarrass himself before the opening-day crowd, and he really didn't want to take the chance that Zito might go on to get lit up in his first start with the Giants. So he took the opportunity to get him out of there.

What I really don't understand is why he then chose to give away the at-bat by sending up Niekro, instead of Linden or Klesko.

by Evan on Apr 4, 2007 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
The only reason seems to be that Niekro had a career 2 for 4 with a HR against Peavy, but I'm definitely with you.  Klesko was a teammate of Peavy, so maybe Bochy thought Peavy would know his weaknesses or something, but Linden seems a good choice - he's a left handed bat, and he's got much more speed than Niekro (to beat out a potential double play).

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bullet points
Oh man ... I hope we don't have a manager who makes decisions based on four at-bats.

I wonder whether the lack of a fifth outfielder is already causing problems for Bochy. He may be leery of using Linden's bat, for fear that he'll have to send Feliz or Frandsen or Klesko to the outfield if he gets in a jam later (needing to pinch-hit for Roberts, for example).

by Evan on Apr 4, 2007 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

sanchez
I was at the game, in a less than optimal viewing seat. How did Sanchez look? Did he miss spots, or was his stuff just bad?
Felipe: "I'm thinking if having Bonds hit leadoff. Or eight. No, wait, pitching. Anyway, I haven't talked to him about it yet

by theclap on Apr 4, 2007 1:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
As Trecole mentioned at the top, this was precisely the time to start Klesko at 1B, even if Bochy insists on seeing Feliz's antics for himself and starts him at 3B.

As Keith Olbermann mentioned yesterday on the Dan Patrick Show, in baseball you're going to lose 54 games no matter what, and you're going to win 54 games no matter what; it's what happens in the other 54 games that counts. I guess we can put this first one in the "lose anyway" category and hope for the best in the future. But our offseason/preseason concerns (not enough offense and weak relief pitching) seem to be borne out.

Go Matt!

Proud papa to Sergio Romo; and looking forward to adopting Josh Vitters!

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Apr 4, 2007 2:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I'm really hoping that Bochy's decision to start Pedro in this game had more to do with an "Opening Day" lineup thing and not because he felt Pedro/Richie gave him a better chance than Richie/Ryan.
you can't handle the truth or Ryan Klesko!

by Goofus on Apr 4, 2007 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I bet we'll see a fair amount of Ryan at first base. If the Giants don't begin to hit, Bruce Bochy will likely shake things up a bit.  Klesko and Todd Linden will likely see starting time.  It will then be up to them to make the most of it, which likely will be the case.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Heard Klesko was iced up big time after the game. Maybe you won't see too much of old Klesko this year.

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Apr 4, 2007 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Microcosm
A lot of Giants fans are depressed, frustrated and angry over this loss.  Was is just one game?  Can anything happen of opening day?  Well yes, but a lot of us have a sick feeling in our stomachs that this is just a microcosm of the decay and downright rot that has taken over this team with a death grip.  It represents the culmination of at least 4 years of mismanagement.  It's the prelude to Brian Sabean's seemingly inevitable firing at the end of the season, a welcome, but much belated event.

Part of me wants to launch into an extended rant detailing Sabean's descent from Executive of the Year to him being a serious candidate for worst GM in baseball, but we all know the story:  The failure to find even decent power hitters for RF and 1B.  The AJ trade.  Forfeiting draft picks for the Michael Tuckers of the world.  Shelling out big, longterm contracts for pitchers who are, at least statistically, on the downsides of their careers. Going for quantity over quality in the FA market. Unimaginative, methodical filling of holes with overpriced, yet mediocre FA's are just a few of his transgressions.

The blame for this sad state of affairs lies equally with ownership.  If they have lost enough faith in Brian Sabean to hang his continued tenure on the outcome of this season, they should have fired him immediately after the end of last season.  If they didn't like the last two Giants teams, they should have fired him as soon as they looked at the roster he ended this offseason with, preferably before he risked the next 10 years on a pitcher who could arguably be several years past the peak of his career.  If spring training wasn't enough to convince them, yesterday probably didn't either.  I really came as no surprise.  This team has no power, no bullpen, a suspect rotation and a weak farm system.  It ain't going anywhere!

There is still plenty of time for Brian Sabean to F...up this team even worse than he already has before the end of the year:  Time to draft college RHP's in the first round of a draft that is weak for college RHP's, but strong on HS hitters.  Time to trade Jonathan Sanchez and Brian Wilson for a Shea Hillenbrand clone at the trade deadline when we are below .500 but only 5 games off the pace.  For better or worse, there is little Brian Sabean can do to alter the outcome of this season.  He's put the team together.  He can only watch and wait.  Any idea that Sabean isn't out of ideas and out of imagination should have totally evaporated with yesterday's game.  Time for him to go.  Let's get a freshh perspective in the GM chair before he can do any more damage.

by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 4, 2007 6:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Macrocosm
You're right, it's not just one game.  It's a near seamless continuation of the past three years.  More than three years, really.

This morning, I was listening to someone on KNBR complaining about Sabean's failure to bring in a legitimate power hitter this past off-season. You know, it's not like he didn't try.  

Brian Sabean's downfall can be traced to the absolute and utter failure of his farm system.  Under Sabean's watch (along with that of Director of Player Development Jack Hiatt and Director of Scouting Matt Nerland), the farm system has produced very little in the way of real pitching talent, and not even one position player that has had any real impact or value.

For the first half of his tenure, Sabean's failure to produce significant home-grown talent went largely unnoticed. He was able to build a World Series caliber team, starting with his astute trades for players like Kirk Rueter, J.T. Snow and Jeff Kent. He even saw Rich Aurilia, a guy he had scouted and helped Bob Quinn trade for back in '94, become a strong contributor at shortstop.  

Then, thanks to two key factors:

  • Sabean's reputation, from his years with the Yankees, as a builder of strong farm system talent
  • A free-agent market that was always flush with reasonably-priced, ready-to-sign talent
...Brian Sabean was able trade away the likes of:
  • Jason Brester
  • Darin Blood
  • Joe Fontenot
  • Mike Villano
  • Armando Rios
  • Ryan Vogelsong
  • Jason Grilli
  • Nate Bump
  • Chris Magruder
  • Felix Diaz
  • Ryan Meaux
...and several others, far less memorable, for players like:
  • Ellis Burks
  • Joe Carter
  • Robb Nen
  • Jason Schmidt
  • Livan Hernandez
  • Andres Galarraga
  • Kenny Lofton
And then of course, there was the ongoing presence of one Barry Bonds, giving the Giants year after year of the most awesome and the most productive hitting the game has ever seen.

The San Francisco Giants of the late '90s and early '00s were teams that hit for power, scored a lot of runs, played good defense, and pitched reasonably well, particularly out of the bullpen.

So, yeah, the failure of the farm system went pretty much unnoticed for a good stretch there.  But then a couple things changed:

  1. The league got wise to the Giants farm system. They watched just about every last one of the players Sabean foisted on the Pirates, Marlins, Rockies, Marlins and White Sox turn out to be dogs. Suddenly, Brian Sabean was having a hard time getting anyone to take his calls.
  2. Small and mid-market teams started benefiting from luxury tax and revenue sharing money, and they began signing their homegrown talent a bit more frequently.  The free agent cupboard began turning up largely bare. Those trade-deadline specials that Sabean once feasted on were no longer in great abundance.
Less talent available to trade for, and no one wants what you have to offer anyway.  Suddenly, it became very important for the Giants to have their own home-grown talent.  And that's when the bankruptcy of the Giants' farm system really became noticeable.

So, Brian Sabean is painted into a corner.  The organization is riddled with dead wood. Dead wood in the front office that is matched perfectly by the dead wood up and down the batting order (I'm going to go ahead and skip the all-too-obvious joke here about the Giants needing to up their erectile dysfunction advertising).

There are way too many "Special Assistants" and "Senior Advisors" who do basically nothing.  Way too many Directors who do far too little.  I mean, for the life of me, I can't understand how Jack Hiatt has kept his job as Director of Player Development for 14 years, or how Matt Nerland is in his eighth year as Director of Scouting.  I suspect it's because Brian Sabean is a decent guy who, beneath a sort of gruff exterior, actually deals with people with integrity and compassion. I think he's loyal to his guys and is loath to fire them.

I think we're witnessing Brian Sabean's swansong. I hate saying it, because I like Brian Sabean, and I applaud all that he did to build the Giants into a winning organization in the late 90's and early 00's.  And, even with the failure of the farm system, Sabean is still a largely competent GM. The Giants could do a lot worse.  In fact, they very well may do worse, once Sabean is cashiered (or more likely, kicked upstairs) after this year.

But hopefully, the Giants will bring in someone with some fresh energy, fresh ideas--particulary where building a farm system is concerned--and the long-overdue process of rebuilding the franchise can begin.  

It will probably be a pretty brutal process for at least a couple years. Lots of familiar faces and names will probably be kicked to the curb. Probably a few good people will be swept out, along with the incompetent.  But a clean sweep is badly needed right now for a team that has just one young player--Matt Cain--who looks like a sure talent they can count on for years to come.  There's no one else on their current roster, and no one else in their farm system--not even Lincecum or Villalona--of whom that can be said.

A viking funeral is probably the best thing for the Giants' current front office, and the sooner it begins, the better.  

by tobias on Apr 4, 2007 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Very well thought out and written post.  I agree with everything, although I think the odds are quite good that Lincecum will be a successful MLB pitcher.

Sabean's Giant's career can be divided into the successful years, 1997-2002, when his trades almost always worked, and the declining years (2003 was an aberation), 2003-2007, when his trades never worked.  You hit it on the head, by '03 other executives had finally figured out that Sabean had no minor league talent to deal.  Actually his trades were pretty spotty in 2002, but he ended it with the Lofton mid-season trade which probably got the Giants into the World Series.

This season will likely be bittersweet, with Bonds chasing the record, but the good news about a bad ending, is that it will be Sabean's swan song.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Apr 4, 2007 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Didn't his primary philosophy on draft day be that drafting pitchers was preferable because they had more trade value?  I think the time when unproven pitchers have more value than unproven hitters has long since gone.

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
The league got wise to the Giants farm system. They watched just about every last one of the players Sabean foisted on the Pirates, Marlins, Rockies, Marlins and White Sox turn out to be dogs. Suddenly, Brian Sabean was having a hard time getting anyone to take his calls.

You hear this a lot, but I always wonder how true it is. The pitchers Sabean traded were legitimately good prospects; it's not like he was able to dress up scrubs as future stars and somehow trick other GMs into getting excited about them. They didn't pan out because pitching prospects generally don't pan out. Everyone knows this, but they hope to get lucky anyway--as the White Sox did with Foulke and Howry. And let's not forget that Mike Caruso was the Francisco Liriano of 1998; whatever went wrong with him happened on Chicago's watch, not because Sabean overhyped him.

by Evan on Apr 4, 2007 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Maybe it was unfair to use the word "foisted", because I don't believe that Sabean was trying to trick anyone.  But the point isn't that Sabean was over-hyping what he knew to be bad players.  The point is that, for whatever reason, the Giants farm system was not producing major league caliber players.  That's what the league caught on to.

by tobias on Apr 4, 2007 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
I was with you until you said that Lincecum cannot be called a "sure talent they can count on for years  to come". Lincecum is in many ways as exciting as Cain, and pegged by so many highly respected scouts as a budding star. He did well in ST. He's pretty much proved himself, unless something crazy happens in AAA.

I agree that Villalona is a ?, albeit a nice one, but Lincecum? Come on.

"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Lincecum looks like a sure thing, but he still hasn't pitched any big league innings.  LOTS can happen...

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
That's my point exactly.

I mean, I'm pretty bullish on Lincecum and Villalona both.  Lincecum especially.  I just think that until he's pitched successfully at the big league level, for at least a full year, I wouldn't consider him a "sure major league talent that we can count on for years to come".

Like you say, LOTS can happen.

by tobias on Apr 4, 2007 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Like sharksrog
I have seen Lincecum pitch in person, and it is a sight to behold. He is miles above many MAJOR LEAGUE pitchers when he is locked in. When he is locked in, which he was for 90% of the game I saw, balls don't leave the infield, and rarely get struck.

Frankly, he performed almost as well in much of ST, so I'm not at all concerned about his ability at this level.

"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Yes, it can.  You don't know me, so you have no reason to trust me.  But trust me on this one.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
Very nice analysis, Tobias.  I think you're giving short shrift to Tim Lincecum, however.  If I had to choose between him and Matt Cain, it woudldn't be a very hard choice -- even though I realize you are right when you say that even the little-proven Matt is more proven than is Tim.

But I have had the advantage of seeing Tim pitch.  Merely watching him throw two long tosses at

http://www.calleaguers.com/LincecumTim0326.html

brought tears to my eyes.  Reading about him at such spots as

http://detectovision.com/?p=680 and http://detectovision.com/?p=628

helped me realize WHY I liked his pitching so much.  And watching him pitch in person truly sealed the deal.

Is it 100% that Tim will go on to become a star for the Giants?  No.  But IMO it's about as close as it could be with any pitching prospect who has never pitched a regular-season game in the big leagues.

The biggest risk with young pitching prospects is the threat of injury.  While that threat never is completely non-existent, I believe with Tim it is very low.  Keep in mind that the kid has never had so much as a sore arm.  From a durablity standpoint, he's probably a six-years-younger Barry Zito.  From a dominance standpoint, he's probably MORE than a three and a half month older Matt Cain.

Tim Lincecum may well be the healthy, righthanded equivalent of Francisco Liriano.  Oh, except that Tim is still a Giant, of course.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
I've often criticized Sabean for what he's done and I think you've nailed it in terms of his decline as a top GM.

It seems to me, however, that the farm system was much worse in the 1996/97 Joe Fontenot/Nate Bump days when he took over than it is now. Going from the absolute worst system to being just in the bottom 10 may not be a meaningful improvement, but it's something, especially considering the resources the organization put into Bonds and the new park. It seems to me that things are changing, ever so slightly, and while it isn't fast enough for me, it does seem to be moving in the right direction, finally.

My biggest criticism of Sabean has been and is, that he simply failed to prepare for the end of the Bonds era, i.e., getting Vlad (or someone else) to overlap in the Bonds years and then take over when the time came. If we had a guy like that now, we wouldn't have pressed so hard to get soriano, lee and pierre, and Zito because the team wouldn't have felt the pressure to make a big free agent signing just to make one. It certainly would have given them more leverage with Bonds.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 4, 2007 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
I know, Bump was drafted by Sabean, but the main point remains.
We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 4, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Macrocosm
I'm not sure I'd say that. In '96 the farm system had Estes, Russ Ortiz, Keith Foulke, and Bobby Howry in it.  Lincecum's ceiling aside I don't know that the system's going to provide "much better" than that right now.  In addition, as head of Player Personnel from 93-96, I'm not sure how much of a pass he gets for the shape of the system when he took over as GM anyway.

FWIW I just think at both the minor and major league levels his staff has just had too many gaffes in player evaluation, from the contract extensions (Bernard, Snow, Reuter) to the free agent signings (Alfonzo, Benitez, Zito) to the trades (#@&!), to the continually underwhelming drafts, there have been too many mistakes when it comes to evaluating talent. That doesn't seem like a radical statement to make about a guy who's spent nearly $100 million constructing what strikes me as very probably a last place team.

by Roger on Apr 4, 2007 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ranking
Hey Roger!  This is changing the topic a bit to tie up loose ends from anothr thread, but it's somewhat on topic too.  I got my copy of BA today with the system rankings.  They have the Giants ranked #20!  Whoo, hoo!!!  Certainly not great, but barely out of the lower third.

by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 4, 2007 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Ranking
Without a doubt there are systems crappier than ours -- and one of 'em actually resides in our division (I guess us and the Pads balance out the the other 3), though Timmy's shoulders may be getting tired from his Atlas-like predicament, bearing the weight of the system on his slender frame.

by Roger on Apr 4, 2007 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Microcosm
I think your description of Brian Sabean as a guy who has descended from Executive of the Year to one of the worst GM's in baseball is an apt one.  That said, let's see how he does juggling things this year.

Last season he didn't do a very good job of signing free agents (Jose Vizcaino, for crying out loud?) or of making trades (Shea Hillenbrand didn't quite cut it, although at least the Giants got Vinnie Chulk in the deal.), but he did an excellent job of drafting/signing Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona.  Brian truly needs to hit a home run with this year's draft -- and to luck into having his starting pitchers perform well enough that he can trade one of them and someone like Dave Roberts for a much-needed power hitter.  He may well need to make a lesser trade to shore up the bullpen.

But he probably deserves the chance to see how he can regarding the needs cited above -- and is almost certain to get that chance.  The biggest problem could come if he does a reasonably good job with those things.  Could he be trusted going forward?

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Microcosm
<quote>Brian truly needs to hit a home run with this year's draft -- and to luck into having his starting pitchers perform well enough that he can trade one of them and someone like Dave Roberts for a much-needed power hitter.  He may well need to make a lesser trade to shore up the bullpen.</quote>

Head of nail, meet sharkrog's hammer.

"Personally, I think we got hosed on that call." -Harry Doyle; Minor Izzy

by hairball on Apr 4, 2007 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Microcosm
Sabean not only has time to make things worse, he's got tremendous motivation to do so, knowing as we all do that he's the scape goat if things go south (as they seem likely to do).

by Roger on Apr 4, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Cain and pray for rain?
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 4, 2007 8:40 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Lincecum and Cain.  That's all that keeps us sane.

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 10:32 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Ray Durham batting 4th?

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Apr 4, 2007 12:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
You know, if Matt Williams played three or four steps back on the grass, and Omar could slide over to his right a few feet, we could get a real bat in the lineup behind Barry, after all, Matt retired in 2003, which really isn't all that long ago, heck, it's like riding a bike, right? And he's in town after all, and it looks like he has a jersey shirt that sort of fits him...

by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Apr 4, 2007 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
We know he'd at least have a better OBP than Pedro...

by ololo3 on Apr 4, 2007 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
Dunno if it would fly in the MLB office....he's a part owner of the D'backs.
Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Apr 4, 2007 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bleah.
I have little problem with Ray Durham batting fourth.  It is Barry Bonds batting THIRD that irks me.  If Barry isn't going to hit cleanup, who BETTER than Ray on the present Giants roster?

by sharksrog on Apr 4, 2007 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Aurelia Said:
"It was a nice day. The weather was warm. Until they crown the winner for the season on Opening Day, it doesn't matter. We'll come back tomorrow ready to play."

And if Cain strikes out 1 per inning, Barry yaks, and Mando comes up without poopin' his jock, the Giants pick up two games, and reduce their magic number to 161. Cake.

Save Matt Morris. Save The Pitchers. Save The World.

by E Ticket on Apr 4, 2007 1:20 PM PDT reply actions  

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