minor lines, 4/26/07
by steve S on Apr 26, 2007 10:07 PM PDT
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PrintAAA: Fresno lost to Colorado Springs 4-3
Fresno: 3B Kevin Frandsen: 0 for 2, 2 BB, CS
Fresno: LF Dan Ortmeier: 2 for 4, HR, CS
Colorado Springs: 1B Joseph Koshansky: 1 for 3, HR, BB
Fresno: RHP Matt Palmer: 7.0 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 K, 1 HR
Fresno: RHP Scott Munter: 1.2 IP, 0 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 0 K, 0 HR
Colorado Springs: RHP Ubaldo Jimenez: 6.0 IP, 3 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 4 K, 0 HR
Colorado Springs: RHP Matt Herges: 1.1 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 1 K, 1 HR
It seems odd to see Frandsen hitting cleanup, and his line tonight does not really look like that of a cleanup hitter. He is definitely walking more this year with 6 BB in 51 AB. Last year with Fresno he had 12 BB in 293 AB. Ortmeier connected for his 5th HR of the year. He already led all Giants minor leaguers and added to his total. On the downside, his first CS of the year came with one out in the bottom of the 9th inning. Koshansky is one of the best 1B prospects in the minors, although his line of .278/.385/.444 with which he entered the night is not that impressive for a slugger. He hit .284/.371/.526 a year ago.
Another very solid start for Palmer brings his ERA down to 3.00. He was efficient with his pitch count, throwing just 89 pitches (56 strikes). After a perfect 8th inning, Munter allowed two walks in the 9th inning. Both runs scored after he left the game. Jimenez is one of the better pitching prospects in the PCL. He had six shutout innings. The first two batters in the 7th inning reached base, and subsequently scored after ex-Giant Herges relieved him, giving up a 3-run HR to the first batter (Ortmeier) he faced.
AA: Connecticut lost to Trenton 2-1
Connecticut: CF John Bowker: 1 for 3, BB, SO, SB
Connecticut: LF Eddy Martinez-Esteve: 2 for 4, SO
Connecticut: 1B Travis Ishikawa: 0 for 4, 2 SO, GiDP
Connecticut: 3B Simon Klink: 2 for 3, 2B, BB
Trenton: LF Shawn Garrett: 2 for 3, 2B, BB
Connecticut: RHP Ben Cox: 5.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 4 K, 0 HR
Connecticut: LHP Eugene Espineli: 0.1 IP, 1 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 1 K, 0 HR
Connecticut: RHP Ryan Sadowksi: 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 1 K, 0 HR--1 IBB, 1 WP
Connecticut: RHP Osiris Matos: 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 K, 0 HR
Bowker drew just his second walk of the year, giving him a modest .333 OBP despite a good .311 AVG. EME raised his AVG to .288. Klink is now hitting .289/.365/.422 in 45 AB after hitting just .233/.339/.380 last year. Ishikawa's first game in over a weak (wrist injury) ended with an ugly offensive line. Garrett led the Yankees' affiliate in offense, which he should, since the 28-year-old has a pretty good record in triple-A the past few seasons.
Cox's start tonight was better than his previous two starts. He also had an atypically high GO/FO ratio as he induced 8 ground ball outs. Espineli's ERA rose to 5.19, although both runs scored after he left the game. That ERA is tied for being the highest on the team. Sadowski and Matos maintained their 0.00 ERAs, two of three pitchers on the team who have yet to allow an earned run.
A+: San Jose lost to Lancaster 10-6
San Jose: 2B Anthony Contreras: 2 for 5
San Jose: RF Michael Mooney: 2 for 4, 2B, 2 SO
San Jose: LF Ariel Nunez: 0 for 3, 2 SO, E
San Jose: RHP Joseph Martinez: 5.0 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 5 BB, 2 K, 1 HR--2 WP
San Jose: LHP David Quinowski: 2.0 IP, 3 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 3 K, 0 HR
San Jose: RHP David Newton: 0.0 IP, 0 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 0 K, 0 HR--1 HB
San Jose: RHP Kelvin Pichardo: 1.0 IP, 2 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 BB, 1 K, 1 HR
Lancaster: RHP Michael Bowden: 6.0 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 9 K, 0 HR
Mooney's 7th double of the season was the Giants only XBH of the night. Contreras was the only other Giants with multiple hits, raising his AVG to .254. He was also one of only two Giants starters not to strike out. Another poor game for Nunez. He now has almost as many errors as hits, which is particularly bad for an outfielder.
Lancaster is not a friendly place for pitchers. Martinez had one of the worst starts of his pro career in terms of his peripheral stats. Still, he did perform better than any of his three relievers, and he also finished the night with a lower ERA than all of them. Does Quinowski's 4.85 ERA mean that he just does not have enough stuff to fool Cal League hitters? Newton's ERA climbed to 5.87. He now has 7 BB in 7.2 IP this year. Pichardo still has a decent 3.86 ERA. The HR that Pichardo allowed was an inside-the-park HR, and both the San Jose catcher and manager were subsequently ejected. Bowden, the Red Sox #5 prospect, now has 23 H, 7 BB and 28 K in 27.0 IP with a 2.33 ERA.
A-: Augusta defeated Greenville 8-1
Augusta: SS Brian Bocock: 2 for 5, SB, E
Augusta: 1B Brett Pill: 2 for 4, BB
Augusta: C Henry Gutierrez: 3 for 5
Augusta: RF Matthew Weston: 2 for 4, BB, 2 SO
Augusta: DH Dayton Buller: 3 for 5, SO
Augusta: RHP Adam Cowart: 6.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 4 K, 0 HR
Augusta: RHP Ryan Shaver: 2.0 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 3 K, 0 HR
Augusta: RHP Thomas King: 1.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 1 K, 0 HR
Bocock stole yet another base, his 19th. He also committed his 6th error, a surprising total given his defensive reputation. Four GreenJackets hitters reached base three times. Buller raised his AVG to .524, while Gutierrez raised his AVG to .333. After slow starts, Pill and Weston now have their AVGs up to at least .250.
Just another win for Cowart. He seems to get one in every start as his record is now 5-0. His WHIP remains below 1.00, and his ERA crept lower, now at 0.60. He allowed 5 fly ball outs, while his relievers allowed none. Shaver has not gotten a lot of playing time, but he still has a 0.00 ERA after three appearances. Tonight he had 2 perfect IP with 3 K and 3 GO. The pitchers in the tandem rotation have been so good that it has been tough for the couple short relievers on the roster to get playing time. King made just his 4th appearance of the year, and allowed his first run of the year. Cowart is the only GreenJackets pitcher with more than four appearances, and Shaver is the only GreenJackets pitcher with fewer than four appearances; all the other pitchers have four appearances.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Cowart
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 26, 2007 10:48 PM PDT reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Herges Just Sucks!
Think it might be time for Matt to think about his post-baseball career?
Re: Herges Just Sucks!
But yeah, he is pretty much done. I suppose he could hang on for a callup, but I wouldn't imagine that he would stick around in the minors after this year.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 26, 2007 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Grizzlies
Clay Timpner had a bead on the long drive in the gap that came next and Timpner seemed to pull up slightly as he approached the right fielder. They both had a shot at the ball but it ended up falling between them.
Ortmeier's HR came after he twice missed at bunting the ball to advance the runners.
by Andy In Fresno on Apr 26, 2007 11:01 PM PDT reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Seriously... skip high-A, send him right to AA.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 26, 2007 11:03 PM PDT reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 27, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
I still love Joey Martinez. Keep throwing strikes.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Apr 26, 2007 11:04 PM PDT reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
IF the entire argument against him is that his fastball is eminently hittable once players adjust to his funky motion, then he should be kept in the league for AT LEAST one cycle through most of the teams and see them a second time. Let hitters try to get used to him before making any sharp judgments.
Cowart has faced Rome, Savannah, Charleston, Columbus and Greenville so far. If he stays on schedule, he will face Greenville again in two his next three starts (May 6 and May 12). After that, he won't have a chance to see a team for the second time until June.
At least let him get through Greenville the next couple of times, and let's see how batters respond to him and how he responds to that before the promotion talk really starts.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 26, 2007 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
The key for Cowart as a pitcher will be how he can succeed when the motion stops being so new and unique to opposing hitters.
Pitching is more than a motion, it's about pitching smart. Mixing pitches, and being able to hit locations good enough on pitch speed changes so that hitters can't sit on one speed. Obviously, Cowart's been efficient with his pitches so far, but for him to be accurately judged, he will have to face hitters who have seen the motion before. So far, he hasn't had any hitters see him more than twice; some out there, especially Greenville, will get the chance to adjust.
The great players are great not because of pure stuff, but because they can make the adjustments to use their stuff. You can't fast-track a player and not find out if they can handle those adjustments....or for that matter, not have them learn how to make them at the lower levels before letting them implode when having to make adjustments for the first time against clearly advanced opponents.
It's the same reason why Jamarcus Russell will be a bigtime bust in the NFL. Pure tools don't mean diddly when you haven't had the chance to learn how to play the mental games. He hasn't at LSU, and even if he does eventually learn on the fly in the NFL, it won't be for several years and long after the Raiders need him now.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 1:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Pure tools DON'T mean diddly. The reason that so many athletes who's IQ is off the charts but physical tools are middling fall by the wayside is that the speed of the game catches up and eventually passes their ability to process it. The reason QBs and WRs struggle in their transtition to the NFL is that everything is happening so much faster than in college -- in other words the general tools of their competition has increased dramatically AND those tools are mostly being applied by athletes with superior mental processes as well.
Going up through the levels should be a learning process of how to adapt to your opponents as you say. But as you advance the game is going to be played much much faster and as you get to opponents who are forced to adjust to 90-95 MPH breaking pitches (which they aren't seeing in the Sally) it takes a lot more to fool them. Tools matter. Because at the top there are people with both extraordinary physical tools and a great mental approach and adaptability.
Not everybody in the Sally is a career minor leaguer, but the vast majority of them are. I'd be interested in knowing the numbers on that. I'd guess that 15 future major leaguers a year in the league would be on the high side.
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Also... Think man! As a batter, you face a different pitcher EVERY SINGLE DAY OF YOUR LIFE for MONTHS. Do you remember each and every single one? Do you make it your life's goal to figure out one single pitcher who just whooped you rotten for a few at bats out of your last couple hundred? Expecially when each inning is 3-up 3-down and Cowart comes out after 6 innings. That's basically 2 times for most of a lineup to try him out. It will takes years and years of playing him to actually get used to his style because of how little you get to see him, or any pitcher for that matter, versus how many times you actually bat! This "figuring out" nonsense is a waste of your breath. There was this pitcher I grew up with in little league who dominated everyone from pee-wee all the way up to seniors. Every time we played his team, we got spanked. I never figured him out, and actually was a little nervous at the start of the game just from his reputation. Think Cowart has that same effect? I think he has the mental game down pact if you ask me.
Cowart's got the stuff to make it all the way, because he can adapt. But if it ain't broke yet don't fix it. It's not just in his 3/4 delivery... Cowart hides the ball very well, and his ball drops very late in the zone, more so than pretty much any pitcher I've seen. I mean that boy has control on that arm. He puts the ball anywhere he wants to, so it's not just the motion, but the fact that there's no windup gives a batter the same if not less time to react to a pitcher like Lincecum who throws 95 with a windup. Batters time themselves, I was one... and what's hard is that if you don't know when the ball is coming, it's hard to plan to swing. And when the ball crosses your body as a right hander vs him, it's near impossible, the ball makes contact with the bat a few inches from your wrist, you swing way late, and the fact the ball drops so quick while you are swinging at such a disadvantage is the same reason his GO/FO ratio is through the roof. It's a wicked combo, not just a "sidearm gimmick"
Learn your stuff kid, give Cowart a promotion straight to AA.
by gabriel87120 on Apr 27, 2007 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
see every pitch Matt Cain has ever thrown, i believe thats available....think Schilling had
this a few years ago on his own little DVD player- ...NFL has had this for some time for their players also...
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
We need to know what he does against the pros, not some against the local kids in Texas, and what happened to you in little league means nothing when we're talking about the pros; Not an insult to you, but did you have at least a dozen years of experience, play every day of a season with little else on your plate, and receive several hours of coaching every day from former major leaguers?
And yes, batters do remember pitchers. Listen to an MLB broadcast with former major league players, and listen to how they talk about certain pitchers they faced off the top of their heads. What's more, of course they'll remember the good ones, like Cowart.
What's more, the higher Cowart gets, the more things will work against him. He'll have to deal with batters who get to 'see' him before getting to see him, using things like video scouting. That's getting more common in the minors, and is a staple in the majors.
Finally, if you want to talk about doing your 'homework', you'd know that only one team other than the Giants plays in both the Northwest League and the South Atlantic League; The Colorado Rockies. And the GreenJackets haven't yet faced the Asheville tourists yet, and won't until early June. So no, none of these guys have had that 'second chance' yet.
And yes, I've seen the guy throw in person.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
What many of us suspect is that he just isn't going to be tested much in the Sally league, and that he probably won't be forced to make many adjustments there. I don't believe that gimmicky deception alone is the reason for his effectiveness. He already has stellar control, and that alone probably will keep him from getting hit much at the lower levels.
How many college pitchers who put up Cowart's numbers in S-K would end up in low-A? You can bet that an overhand 90+ mph fastball guy would not have been left there. It doesn't really matter how a guy gets outs so long as he does get them. Think Chad Bradford.
Cowart would have to make adjustments in AA too. The guy just isn't likely to make some great leaps and bounds in development. If so, why not push him? If he is 24 and not likely to get a whole lot better, then push him. AA batters can adjust faster than low-A batters.
I would say at the very least send him to San Jose, but how long will he be there? Enough time for everyone around the league to see him twice? It seems a little pointless, but I suppose that it is better than nothing. If Cowart is going to make the majors, at this rate, he won't get there until what, 2010? 2011? What a waste. Push him.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 27, 2007 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
My personal belief is that EXPERIENCE is far more important than age. A 25-year old who is placed directly into Triple-A without having prior pro experience is probably not going to fair as well as a 22-year old who has gone through significant progress at the levels.
This isn't to say that age doesn't register...obviously, you want a prospect who can ideally reach the fringe of the majors as he comes into what is normally the peak physical development years (25-27), so their final adjustments come at that point, but a guy has to have the experience to make those adjustments.
In Cowart's case, he missed significant time for injury, and had to rework his entire motion to account for that: that's a damn good, real and legitimate reason to be behind in experience for his age.
I know that seperates me from most, but I'm hardly a herd mentality on this.
And of course, what we're ignoring is that this guy throw a fastball under 80 MPH! That makes him entirely different from ANY comparison to just a 'college pitcher' or '24-year old'. He's unique, and shouldn't be treated like everyone else.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Homework
by gabriel87120 on Apr 27, 2007 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
I'd say reading comprehension, but this isn't a pissing match, Gabriel. I hope he does well, and I want him to do well. But I think the best way to do that is to be conservative with him, rather than push him hard until he's been pushed off a cliff.
I truly believe he'll be an effective major leaguer....and there are more than a few here who don't. But he should earn it by pitching like this at every level, not just be given high level roles after five starts at the lowest full-season level.
If he performs well in his next three starts, two against Greenville, I too will believe he deserves a promotion (though in June, when most promotions happen, and only to San Jose for this season)
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Thing is, I was quoting the guy that I was responding to.
That's what I get for posting after a long day at two jobs, and amping up for the NFL draft.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 3:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
But Cowart is different. It isn't just age, and I do not make determinations on age alone (BTW, I knew he was 23, but I thought that this was his age-24 season - I may be wrong on that, as his b-day is Aug 18. I blame thebaseballcube.com, which lists him as being in his age-23 season last year). You bring up something of a straw man argument with the 25 year old going directly to AAA - I agree with you, but that doesn't really impact what I have said.
The fact that he was a college pitcher gives him a lot more experience to begin with. Sure, he reworked his delivery, but he does know a lot more about better-polished hitters than a high school pitcher would. Plus, it isn't just his age or experience that makes me think he should be promoted. The fact is, he is mowing guys down and making it look easy, just like a good, polished college pitcher usually would in low-A. So he may be "behind in experience for his age," but you wouldn't know it from the numbers.
My point is that the above evidence, plus his unique delivery without real potential for velocity gain (I had heard low- to mid-80s now), plus his excellent control argue for a promotion. I think Cowart is a player close to his ceiling. Perhaps the organization sees something that I don't, and perhaps he has a lot to learn about hitters and what to throw them. I would be more inclined to leave him further down if he had something substantial to work on like learning a new pitch. I haven't heard that he is, though.
I still think those things don't matter. This isn't a guy who is going to learn better control or add mph to his fastball. What is he learning in low-A that he can't learn better in AA? Regardless of his age, he is a man among boys at Augusta, it seems. I really doubt that Cowart is going to get that much better, and if that is the case, then why not aggressively promote him? What is the point of feasting on A ball hitters?
I also don't care if he skips over other guys in the organization and they have to be moved around. First, if he deserves to be promoted, then too bad for the organizational soldier who doesn't. Second, the organization probably never should have put him in low-A anyway, which isn't his fault.
Finally: Gabriel, you aren't helping.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 28, 2007 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
I would be fine with him at San Jose right now, with a promotion to Connecticut this year with continued success. Basically, a year ahead of Brute's timetable, unless I misread him.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 28, 2007 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
stats at S-K, he might have skipped Augusta
anyway
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
If the Giants promoted Adam to the majors, one of three things would happen. He would do well and somehow find a way to sustain it, or he would initially succeed and have to go back down to the minors to make the necessary adjustments, or he would bomb right out of the chute.
If #1 happened, wonderful (although perhaps unlikely). If #2 happened, he would certainly know WHY he needed to make adjustments. And if #3 happened, he likely wasn't going to ever make it anyway.
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Let me name reason number two: David Aardsma.
The stunts in those players' developments, and the resulting loss of faith (and bad trade) because of business side issues (like starting up their option years) is the result of pushing a player to hard.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Then if Cowart continues to feast on the hitters in San Jose, then promote him. Sending him straight to AA without a stop nearby just doesn't make any sense to me.
by orangeandblackattack on Apr 28, 2007 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
But let's look at each of the two you mentioned.
First, Nick Pereira. He is and was a long shot. Moving him so quickly might not have benefitted him, but is it impossible that it could have? I don't know enough about Nick to know. But I DO know (or at least suspect) that his chances of helping much at the major-league level were/are slim.
Second, David Aardsma. David was brought to the majors at a younger age than we're suggesting moving Cowart all the way up to AA. And you've probably noticed that David has somehow over come it all. If Cowart could ever have a season resembling the one David is putting up this season, I think we would all be delighted.
Whereas Aardsma was close to a sure thing, I see Perreira and Cowart as being odds-against. Adam is older, and I don't see him developing much that will help him more than his unorthodox delivery already does. And that unorthodox delivery might have only so many pitches in it.
Why not rush him along to find out if he can do it at the major-league level before he uses those pitches up?
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
him..Giants put him in a terrible situation, iwas
glad to see him return to baseball and hopefully get a good
$$$ payday
i think Pereira was a 10th rounder...he might have been a suprise last year at SJ, but how much of a
longshot can he be? unless he was a reach
by the Giants in that draft because he was a local..
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
For me, you should push a prospect to succeed, not to see if he fails. I think the difference is, promoting him when you know he's ready as opposed to promoting him to see if he's ready.
Obviously, the main disconnect between us is that I don't think a player is ready until he's dominated several teams more than once, and not just a few teams once each. That part is certainly up for opinion.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 29, 2007 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
#3 happens he likely wasnt going to make it anyway...they just did this with Merkin a few years
ago..would Merkin be a better pitcher by now(injuries aside) if they hadnt rushed him to the
big leagues? i realize Merkin and Cowart are diff.
pitchers, different tracks, but they pushed Pereira
last year also and got no apparent benefit from it..
..the Aardsma thing was kind of a sideshow also, and
now it turns out he may be a decent pitcher after all..
..i would agree with a jump to San Jose now and Connecticut later this year if he keeps on, tho....
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Adam doesn't have traditional stuff. He is successful based on a trick delivery. He already has his control and seems to know how to pitch with the tools available to him.
Why be a coward and hold back Cowart?
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
may not be the upside on Cowart i just dont want to
see them ruin what migth be there- i dont see much
more point for him in low-A, but i would like to
see him dominate fro at least a few months in SJ before he was moved to AA....
Why do organizations do this?
Why do organizations do this? Is it ego? Promote based on merit and performance (yeah, I know this is novel) and not based on potential or monies.
Re: Why do organizations do this?
Re: Why do organizations do this?
When the toolsy guys finally "get it" then they could be promoted and most likely quite rapidly thru the organization.
What I am saying is let the player's performance dictate the level. If the player tops out at AA then he is a AA player. If a player is slow to progress then he maintains the level. When he "gets it" you promote him.
Re: Why do organizations do this?
- A significant injury history, and a motion that puts far more stress on his arm than anyone out there because he has eliminated gravity-induced momentum from his delivery.
- A fastball under 80 MPH.
Finally: who do you move out of San Jose's rotation? Joe Martinez? Yosandy Ibanez (who, by the way, is the perfect corallary for my 'experience' argument)? Dave McKae?
We'll probably see some upward motion around June, which is the normal time promotions occur, and spots will free up at various levels. At that point, I may be pushing a promotion, but 5 starts is simply too small a sample size.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Question is not Cowart specific
Re: Question is not Cowart specific
The other side is what happened to Nick Pereira. By skipping him past Double-A last season, did they hurt his growth potential by letting him get pounded, and now he's suffered a demotion? I don't know if it's necessarily true in his case, but it's hardly out of the realm of possibility.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
SF has a habit of rapid promotion with Ps
Re: Why do organizations do this?
"gravity-induced momentum?" since when does 32ft/s^2 acceleration in the downward vector normal to earth's surface induce anything speed related in the vector field parallel to it upon which the batter swings? Quit trying to sound all sciency with made up terms. A windup uses pivotal motion to gain momentum (centripetal forces) surely you aren't trying to convince this scientific community that it has anything to do with gravity, professor...
Stick to the facts, Cowart dominates. End of story.
Oh and:
- His fastball is not under 80 last I checked
- Yours is.
by gabriel87120 on Apr 27, 2007 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
by orangeandblackattack on Apr 28, 2007 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
The majority of velocity comes not from the shoulder, but the twisting of a player's hips, thus creating the torque that helps whip an arm around, and from the forward step down the mound, which helps bring the arm forward at a high velocity because it is traveling a longer path in the same amount of time.
This is why, among other things:
* Longer windups with higher steps (think Nomo, Willis) generally generate more velocity.
* Pitching from the stretch reduces a player's velocity by a few MPH, and often makes his fastball less effective.
Cowart is unique because he doesn't take a step. To take pressure off his knee, he starts his windup with his foot out in front of him, where his plant foot would usually land. Instead, he only pivots on it, barely lifting it from the ground.
That takes away the gravity increased momentum that leads to most high velocity fastballs from his pitching, placing more stess on his hips and arms. It also reduces the way a normal pitcher's leg, just by a natural step, would bring the hips around to create the force.
This is not 'professor' BS, this is long-standing mechanics and well-known effects on pitching. If you don't believe me, try...um, well, the homework comment would just be rude at this point. But a very basic summary is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_plate#Pitcher.27s_mound
Or you could read this excerpt: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/yankees_no_more_no_less/110829
The pitcher has more leverage on a higher mound while the greater angle produced from the higher mound makes it more difficult to hit the ball squarely. According to physicists, the gear effect states that when comparing a smaller arc and a wider arc, the wider arc generates more velocity from the same force, which means that throwing off a higher mound results in greater velocity.
There have even been studies in recent years regarding how mound height (more or less) can affect pitchers' health and injury histories. While this itself may not affect the unique situation regarding Cowart's delivery and possible health issues, it should be sufficient enough to say that I'm not just trying to confuse people with big words.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
I also searched the articles for "gravity induced momentum" to quickly rectify to this debacle, sure enough, not found.
because...
gravity affects up/down plane.
Technically the momentum added to the ball from gravity makes it move up and down differently, but still gravity has nothing to do with the speed the ball reaches the batter, which is what we were talking about I though. I only minored in physics, but that's freshman newtonian physics. Anyone want to correct me, I might be rusty.
sorry for being rude, I get pretty heated when people argue facts with opinions. pet peave
by gabriel87120 on Apr 28, 2007 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Gravity
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 28, 2007 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
A significant injury history, and a motion that puts far more stress on his arm than anyone out there because he has eliminated gravity-induced momentum from his delivery.
The only person that started talking about gravity on the motion of the ball after a pitch is you. No one else.
And just to warn you, a pet 'peave' of mine is people saying I make shit up. I have neither lied nor argued around any point...you have simply attacked me and my opinion, and then try to escape out of it by calling me a liar.
By all means, go perform seemingly impossible acts of self-gratification.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
As for your post... you meant the delivery? OMG I misread you!! Somehow we were talking about speed. It happens... but guess what, still wrong though ;) Gravity still doesn't matter. All of the force generated from a pitch comes from pivotal motions, i.e. torque. Performing the same arm/body motions in a gravity free environment, still generates the same amount of torque. Just admit that you used the wrong words to describe something because I dunno, trying to add quasi-intellectual fluff to your comments I guess, and then you were called out by a scientist who corrected you. You had the right idea kinda, you just pulled words out of your ass to describe it, As most writers do:
vis a vis "gravity induced momentum"
Explanation: The fact that you lift your leg and then bring it down adds degrees of freedom to the equation, giving more pivot points (back foot) to an inertial moment of rest which is acted upon by rotational motion, thus generating more torque for a ball that a guy throws... thus adding to tangntial velocity of a ball being projected from said rotational plane. Gravity in this scenario also exerts rotationally, like you tried to imply. But for it to matter, it would have to be the major driving force for your front foot coming down, but actually it's your back foot that projects your forward (rotationally) and THAT causes your foot to SLAM down from the force which is many many many times the factor added from the gracefull coast downward from 32 ft/s^2 of gravity, squared, then multiplied by the mass of the pitchers downward projecting areas in the rotational plane of motion. Because INDUCED MOMENTUM is a change in force upon an inertial state, and gravity's effects are very negligible when compared to the forces applied directly from the body, Mr. Writer. If you have excel perform the calculation yourself. That way you have facts to argue my facts, instead of opinions, and weak wikipedia references. Let's level the field here, no pun intended.
as far as "making shit up" apparently your source for cowart throwing fastballs in the 70's must be the same place you got your physics degree... your ass. I also don't remember calling you verbatim "a liar," i implied heavily that you are a fluff artist however, so there's your first official lie... liar. Just kidding. Man don't get so defensive. Am I your first challenger? Hey I had to defend a thesis in college, facts only, no opinions. Excuse me for taking a stern and sarcastic approach, because opinions don't fly in my career. They are jested upon. Opinions without facts blow shit up and kill people. So there ya go.
As far as self gratification goes, why don't you go to your corner and perform some selfless acts of gravity induced momentum. See, now that's humor!!
So lets agree to disagree. Make peace, and watch baseball.
by gabriel87120 on Apr 30, 2007 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
you are arguing against a person who writes on SFG prospects for another site..do you know that?
the dude is not a total fool...he has some cred,
ive never heard of you...
Gabriel
Re: Why do organizations do this?
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
If he's back up in the mid-80's, all the better for him, and it doesn't surprise me that it has come up. The sink on his fastball is a lot better when he's got that velocity.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
I'm going by what I saw in Spring Training at the minor league camp.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
So he's not such a doomed prospect after all. since an offseason readjustment to an overhead with a windup, like he used to have, will put him back into the 90's like everyone else. But as it stands, what he does works, because he doesn't just win games, he shuts entire teams down. Personally, showmanship alone will get me season tickets for the Giants just to watch him throw.
by gabriel87120 on Apr 28, 2007 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Rat's Behind
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 28, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Rat's Behind
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
My guess is that if you tossed away a million dollars at a kid who was worthless, you'd probably lose your job. So you better do a lot of convincing to your bosses he's worth it even if he's not...
Now, ppl like Lincecum are worth 2 million, but Cowart definitely didn't belong in the 35th round. Sports, sadly, is a business
by gabriel87120 on Apr 28, 2007 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
Re: Why do organizations do this?
What I theorize about why he's in low A, is that AA was full, and they are trying to polish Cowart, a seasoned college pitcher as a possibly major league starter or reliever so he was given the top pitching spot in a lower team in the meantime until cutsroom higher up can be made. I've even read from some writers theorize that possibly they are training him to play with certain other pitchers from Augusta to move them all up as a package deal, starters as well relievers to join with Lincecum replace the many of the aging Majors eventually. Good theory. Giants are paying heavily for pitchers these days, and as you all know, Cowart's not the only star from Augusta.
by gabriel87120 on Apr 30, 2007 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Why do organizations do this?
Re: Why do organizations do this?
place him only as high as Augusta
Re: Why do organizations do this?
by gabriel87120 on Apr 30, 2007 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
You can't just assume that because a pitcher does something once he'll do it the next time. And you can't just make assumptions that because Cowart is unique, players can't or won't adjust.
Those sorts of things can only be proved by playing the game. So let him play it and don't do any rushing of things before we know what's going on.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Maybe I'm really missing the boat here, and I'm far from sure that Adam will make the major leagues. But I honestly think his chances may decline over time. Why not push him now?
How much is there to lose? He's not odds-on to make the majors anyway. And just how do his odds go up over time? Maybe when Tim Lincecum is called up to the Giants, the moves through the organiztion will allow Adam to move.
But frankly I would put in him AA right now. Let the guy fish or cut bait.
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
The harm is that instead of helping him make small adjustments against hitters who are adjusting to him, pushing him too far will push him up against hitters who have had much more experience picking up pitches, and who could very well pound him back into a demotion, and all the negative feelings and results after that.
Case in point: Nick Pereira. And Nick did as much as Adam's doing now, for much longer.
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
So I think you actually wish to put a put in, allowing you to sell Cowart for a fixed price in the future, indicating you don't think he will be worth more if he jumps to Connecticut because he wouldn't benefit from the move and would fall on his face.
So I guess by putting in a call on the moving of Adam to AA, you are saying you agree with it (even if you merely made a mistake).
So I guess that since a double negative is the same as a positive, your mistake was offset by your misunderstanding. So welcome aboard the fast-track Adam Cowart train. Seats are going quickly, but you got your bid in early. :)
Re: Cowart
I'm thinking he must really hide the ball well if he doesn't have a lot of velocity.
Greg Maddux wasn't seen as a guy with a future of anything near 300 wins, but just knew how to pitch and maybe Cowart is that type. I don't mean about the 300 wins, but just knows how to pitch without the impressive stuff.
I mean, Cowart isn't just winning and pitching well. He's totally shutting down teams. An ERA of 0.60? Are you kidding me? And he was shutting teams down last year too. Who else is doing what he's doing?
Sure, Cowart may or may not prove to be a major league pitcher in the end, but you have to be impressed with what he's been doing so far in his minor league career.
by BarryR on Apr 27, 2007 6:16 AM PDT reply actions
Video Clip
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 27, 2007 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: Video Clip
Truly unique
Re: Truly unique
Re: 2nd part of delivery
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 28, 2007 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions
The finish
morning notes
Norwich Bulletin: Cox retired the first 11 batters he faced. Connecticut was swept by Trenton, which has lost just 2 games this year.
Augusta Chronicle: Augusta pitchers had their streak of innings without allowing an earned run snapped at 35 last night. Scouting report on Henry Sosa? The paper said this a few days ago, "fastball is well into the 90s." Tyler Graham remains out with "a lower body injury."
Re: morning notes
How vague is that? It's almost as perplexing as Jose Valdez's plus-plus fastball in the mid 90's. To be plus-plus it has to grade out as 70 but no mention exceptional movement or sustained mid 90's velocity.
Sosa doesn't strike out many people, but doesn't allow hardly any hits so I figured him for good movement that they couldn't get good wood on and mediocre breaking pitches. Well into the 90's shoots that down.
Doesn't Strike Out Too Many?
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 27, 2007 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
by steve S on Tue Apr 03, 2007 at 01:46:03 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
[new] Re: Infield
Maybe Buller is kept around to teach the young pitchers how to breathe through their eyelids.
Listen to the littlecablecars: Reliz Feliz!
by Lyle on Tue Apr 03, 2007 at 09:06:40 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
minor lines, 4/26/07
Buller raised his AVG to .524
The question still remains.
Why is he there?
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
It's not like Buller is taking away playing time from any real prospects. The other catchers are Henry Gutierrez and Nestor Rojas. The Augusta bench is really thin right now with Tyler Graham injured, Trey Webb filling in for Connecticut, Joey Dyche promoted to San Jose and Marcus Sanders playing only every-other-day.
I guess my question is why shouldn't he be there? Unless you are a member of the Tyler LaTorre or Matt Klimas fan club, I have a tough time coming up with a reason.
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Here are his career stats for full-season affiliates:
- .200/.351/.333 in 30 AB
- .202/.295/.342 in 114 AB
- .231/.315/.277 in 65 AB
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Joey Dyche was injured in the second inning last night. I haven't gotten the extent of the injury yet.
That leaves the Giants with Mooney, Nunez and Richardson, but it looks like San Jose will be calling up James Simmons from extended Spring Training to fill the hole.
Augusta also just has three healthy outfielders in McBryde, Weston and Felmy, although Graham is not yet on the DL.
What Happened to.......
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 27, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: What Happened to.......
P Gib Hobson, P Eric Stolp, P Adam Paul, IF Sean Van Elderen, P Daryl Maday, P Matt McMurtry, IF Matt Downs, OF Lance Salsgiver, C Robert Davis.
On the other hand, the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes "On Deck Circle" newsletter for April listed which former Volcanoes were in extended spring training, and Salsgiver was not among them. (Hobson, Stolp and Paul were listed; I don't believe the other six played for the Volcanoes.)
http://www.volcanoesbaseball.com/On%20Deck%20Circle/On-Deck%20Circle.htm
Re: What Happened to.......
Re: What Happened to.......
Yeah, the Giants focused on drafting speed and infielders last year. If Down is the best pure hitter or best pure power hitter (you indicated the latter, but I thought it may have been the former), what does that say about Brett Pill? If you draft a 1Bman in the 7th round, you figure he'd have a lot better bat a 3B/1B drafted after round 30, wouldn't you? Weston and Felmy got pretty decent bats too as corner outfielders. Was Downs really a better hitter? I can see why Downs may be considered a better bat than the C/SS/2B/CF types drafted ahead of him. I am unaware why he would have a better bat than the 1B/LF/RF/3B types drafted ahead of him.
Re: What Happened to.......
Re: What Happened to.......
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: What Happened to.......
by bsballgirl on Apr 28, 2007 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Is there a years old,or years in minors, or years in organization that defines weather a player is a prospect. Is it possible to have a liget prospect go under the radar due to lack of full season for one reason or another only to emerge at sometime. When do they or are they never be a prospect.
Wouldn't they all be prospects at least on the day they are drafted? Then what happens?
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
It's like trying to judge if a girl (or a guy, for the female and alternative folk on the site) is hot. Everyone has their own standards, hopes, judgements and even projection for what they like.
It's very similar for prospects. Maybe, instead of a huge rack, a guy likes 'smaller' girls with better...uh, firmness; just like one guys likes a blazing fastball, where another sees more value in a more regular fastball but better control.
Okay, this is getting disturbing, so I'm stopping now....
by BruteSentiment on Apr 27, 2007 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
I was just starting to get it.
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Dyche has a ruptured spleen (ouch!)....will miss the rest of the year. Tough break for him after missing half of last year, and he seemed like he was starting to come around in Augusta.
James Simmons is officially a San Jose Giant. More speed on this team, but Simmons hasn't had many chances to show it off. He, like Nunez, played in the AZL last year. The few times I've seen him, I like his speed and range in the outfield, but he has looked careless at times. I hope he overcomes it, carelessness is something easy to get away from with some effort.
Yikes!
by DrBGiantsfan on Apr 28, 2007 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
Re: minor lines, 4/26/07
by BruteSentiment on Apr 28, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
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