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Zito needs to get it done, quickly

He doesn't have much time before the skildillion innings catches up with him -

 March 2, 2007

BY THE NUMBERS
By ALLEN ST. JOHN    

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  • A Giant Bet on Barry Zito
    March 2, 2007; Page W11C

    When free agent pitcher Barry Zito signed with the San Francisco Giants during the off-season, his seven-year, $126 million contract (the biggest ever for a pitcher) raised eyebrows. Despite his 2002 Cy Young award and huge marquee appeal in the Bay Area, Mr. Zito was not universally perceived as an elite starter. Throwing in the low 90s, he lacked the overpowering stuff of many top pitchers, such as Johan Santana of the Minnesota Twins and Mr. Zito's former teammate Rich Harden.

    Even New York Mets general manager Omar Minaya, one of those who pursued Mr. Zito, was unwilling to offer him a guaranteed contract of more than five years. What did the Giants see that made them open up their pocketbooks? Reliability. Over the last five seasons, Mr. Zito has made more starts -- 173 -- than any pitcher in the major leagues.

    But does a history of handling a high workload predict future reliability -- or does it make Mr. Zito a risk? To assess this we looked at pitchers who, like the 28-year-old Mr. Zito, made a reputation as workhorses in their mid-20s. We compiled stats for every pitcher since 1980 with 150 or more starts from age 24 through 28 who posted a .525 or better winning percentage in the process. Then we measured their performances after age 28.

    Reason to Be Pleased

    The result? At first glance, the Giants and their fans have reason to be pleased. Taken as a whole, the pitchers declined relatively little. When they were in the 24-28 age range, they had a collective 3.40 ERA and .610 winning percentage. Over the rest of their careers, the ERA rose to 3.83 and the winning percentage slipped to .583, both still enviable figures. Just as importantly, they averaged 176 starts, 1,166 innings, and 77 wins after age 28.
    [Before and After]

    But there's a hitch. The list also reveals a large standard deviation. It includes some of the game's best, most durable pitchers. There are two 300-game winners -- Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux -- plus Tom Glavine, who's almost there. It also has three other strong Hall of Fame candidates in Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz and Mike Mussina.

    But some names on the list give nightmares to pitching coaches and GMs. Fernando Valenzuela, the Los Angeles Dodgers phenom, had only two winning seasons after age 25. And Chan Ho Park, who after leaving the Dodgers signed a five-year $65 million deal with the Texas Rangers, won only 22 games for them over about 3½ seasons. And Mr. Zito's career numbers lie closer to some of the busts than to the legends.

    Close Comparison

    The best comparison for Mr. Zito is to the man he replaced as the game's richest pitcher, Mike Hampton. The Atlanta lefty is still collecting on his $121 million deal with the Colorado Rockies. And at age 28 (one year after signing that deal), his stats were close to Mr. Zito's -- a 99-66 record, vs. Mr. Zito's 102-63, 974 strikeouts to Mr. Zito's 1096, and a 3.71 ERA to Mr. Zito's 3.55. But Mr. Hampton's record since is 39-35, with a 4.60 ERA. And he missed the 2006 season after Tommy John elbow surgery.

    What's in store for Mr. Zito? His numbers should be helped by moving to a pitcher's park in the National League. But the numbers also say that Mr. Zito is a bit below the game's best starters, with his best years likely behind him. So while the Giants' future is bright thanks to young pitchers like Matt Cain and Noah Lowry, Mr. Hampton and others have made one thing clear: Giving a pitcher an ace's contract doesn't make him one.

    Write to Allen St. John at allen.stjohn@wsj.com1
          URL for this article:

    This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

    0 recs  |  Comment 22 comments

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    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    This makes me more glad than ever that Barry is looking to use his legs more and increase his stride, although it looks as though any major change has fallen by the wayside.

    by sharksrog on Mar 2, 2007 4:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    The Mike Hampton comparison is silly. Numbers do not make the man. Quite simply, no one knows where he will head. I, like sharksrog, was looking forward to the changes in the delivery, and hope that Zito hasn't given up on them entirely. In the meantime, I'm hopeful he'll be quite good, especially now that his fastball seems to be better.
    I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

    by hairball on Mar 2, 2007 5:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Zito's fastball is magically better?
    So that explains it.

    A disoriented Matt Cain was seen this afternoon rifling through lockers in the clubhouse, mumbling something about his missing MOJO.

    by Moggeee on Mar 2, 2007 7:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    I've been convinced that the Mike Hampton thing is a pretty big crock, and the Fernando Valenzuela comparison makes little to no sense.

    That he can mention 6 HOF worthy pitchers and only3 busts, all of whom in my opinion represent very flawed comparions (Chan Ho Park?), when he is making an effort to emphasize busts actually would seem like a good sign. That he's actually struggling to give good examples to fit his argument.

    It's definitely not rhetorically strong, anyway.

    Sounds good to me. Actually makes me feel a little better about Zito. A little.

    Coming to you by proxy

    by howtheyscored on Mar 2, 2007 7:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    If Hampton and Valenzuela aren't good comps for Barry Zito, who do you think are?  I think the reason the original author emphasizes the busts more than the HOFers is that Zito's ERA has been falling the past four seasons, while the Hall of Famers generally were getting better as they seemingly reached their physical primes or at least were usually holding their own better than Barry's has.

    I thought the author was pretty even-handed, pointing out how the comparisons could go either way, but making the very valid if somewhat obvious conclusion that merely paying someone like an ace doesn't make him one.

    Brian Sabean is taking a large risk with Zito, both in terms of salary per season and particularly in terms of years.  I think he felt he needed to take that large a risk lest he be deemed guilty of coming away from his first year with money to spend without a big catch.

    I could easily be wrong, but my sense is that had the Giants landed one of the sluggers who they had as higher priorities than Barry, they wouldn't have signed Zito.  For one thing, they likely would have been out of money.  For another, they wouldn't have needed to gamble as much in order to make a splash.

    There is much to like about Zito, if only that Barry was in contact with Nick Swisher's girlfriend before Nick was.  :)  But there are an awful lot of question marks for a price tag of $126 million.

    The Giants paid for great. What they got was good.  They can only hope that they get at least a few more great years from Barry -- and that his health continues to be great through age 35.

    Whether it will have an impact or not (The signs argue toward a positive response.), Barry has thrown the second-most pitches of any major league pitcher over the past six seasons.  He has thrown over 22,000 pitches.  Over those half dozen years Barry has averaged more pitches than likely any Giants pitcher has thrown in a single season since the 1980's or before.  He has AVERAGED more than in any single season by a Giants pitcher for quite some time.

    by sharksrog on Mar 2, 2007 7:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    The problem with Hampton and Valenzuela as comps for Zito is that they don't resemble him in any way, physically or stuffwise. The broad outline of Hampton's career through the point of signing the big contract is eerily similar to Zito's, though.

    Who do you guys see as good comps for Zito? I think of Viola, Wilson Alvarez, Chuck Finley. And Frank Tanana, though I don't remember him very clearly.

    by Evan on Mar 2, 2007 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    So, wow, most pitchers get worse as they get older! Except some don't! Insightful piece.

    The scary thing about Zito isn't his workload per se. It's that his performance has been in a steady decline for years. He needs to reverse that if he's going to have a Glavinesque career.

    by Evan on Mar 2, 2007 8:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    I was surprised to learn that pitchers peak earlier than hitters. Makes sense, though, since the wear and tear on a pitcher's arm is usually worse than the wear and tear on a position player.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 8:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    The Hampton comparisons are due to the fact he's a lefty and he also signed a deal that was considered way too long for a major league pitcher. The comparison is not valid because not only was Zito more successful in his career than Hampton was up until the contract, but Hampton signed to pitch in the nightmare of a ballpark known as Coors, which no doubt affected him both mentally AND physically, while Zito has now signed to pitch in a very friendly ballpark. Zito is going to give them at least a few quality years and when he starts declining, the Giants picture both Cain and Lincecum taking over as the studs of the staff. Barry Zito will be way overpaid as a number three starter, but with number one and two starters making affordable amounts it should all work out well. By the way, I know Sharksrog from another board, and he's a Dodger fan.

    by rxmeister on Mar 3, 2007 6:30 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    I also know Mark (Rxmeister) from another board, and sadly he apparently is a liar and has no shame.  I say this since I believe I have been a Giants fan longer than he has been alive.  To say I am a Dodger fan is somewhat like saying that Paris Hilton is a virgin.  

    I do give Mark credit for being a long-distance fan from New York who watches the Giants play not only in New York but also in San Francisco and even in Florida.  He also tends to be pretty knowledgeable about the Giants.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 8:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

    PARIS HILTON IS A VIRGIN?????
    I don't know anyone here personally, but I can't imagine disliking anyone enough to stoop so low as to call them a Dodger fan. Wife beater, tax cheat, pedophile: sure. But not that.
    Avoid the rush later - join the Waiting for Josh Vitters bandwagon now!

    by Lyle on Mar 3, 2007 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    I must have hit a nerve, because all I said was that you were a Dodger fan, and you commence with the name calling. Not very nice, Dodg, err, Rog. Your last sentence compliment calling me knowledgable comes too late. I'm deeply hurt.

    by rxmeister on Mar 3, 2007 9:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    After calling me a Dodgers fan, your own shame should hurt you far more than anything I could say.  And, yeah, I know you're joking around.  But knock off the Dodger stuff.  It gives you no glory to stray from the truth.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    Baseball-reference.com rates Mike Hampton as Barry Zito's #1 comp -- and for good reason.  In the six years before the two signed their respective 7-year contracts (Hampton at 27, Zito at 28), Hampton's ERA's were 3.35, 3.59, 3.83, 3.36, 2.90 and 3.14.  Zito's were 3.49, 2.75 3.30, 4.48, 3.86 and 3.83.  

    The only significant difference between the two was that prior to signing the contract, Hampton was mostly improving, while Zito was mostly regressing.  The ERA+ for Hampton went 115, 107, 104, 121, 150 and 139.  Zito's has gone 125, 169, 129, 105, 116 and 116.  

    In the four seasons prior to their contract signings, Hampton averaged 223 inning per season, with Zito averaging 224.  That certainly isn't to say that Zito's career will fall by the wayside as Hampton's did.  

    Hampton has had arm problems, yet still has been about an average pitcher since he signed his contract.  Yes, he was a huge disappointment given the size of the contract, but it's not as if he suddenly became Jamey Wright.  

    Barry's next two comps, Ramon Martinez and Ray Culp, pretty much fell apart soon after age 28, but the two after that, Johnny Podres and Mickey Lolich, pitched well for several more seasons (although Podres' innings soon began a rather rapid decline).  

    Of Zito's next five comps, only Tom Glavine didn't decline rather quickly after age 28. But we should remember first of all that these are merely comps, not Barry himself.  

    We should also remember that the comps have shown that Barry himself could have a long prosperous career such as Glavine and Lolich went on to enjoy -- or that he could decline anywhere from very quickly to gradually as did the others.  We probably shouldn't take great comfort from Zito's comps, since more did rather poorly after age 28 than did well.  

    His #1 comp -- and the only other pitcher who received a large, seven-year contract -- has gone on to be better than most people give him credit for.  Mike Hampton merely hasn't come anywhere close to justifying his nine-figure contract.  

    With 20/20 hindsight on Hampton if not Zito, we can safely say that Barry has a better chance of justifying his contract than Mike has.  But the two pitchers who have signed seven-year contracts to date (Hampton and Kevin Brown), haven't come close to justifying them.  

    There aren't many pitchers who COULD justify a huge seven-year contract.  Hopefully Barry Zito will be one of the elite and can and will become the first to do so.  The Giants are betting $126 million that he can.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 9:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    Your point about Hampton going to a pitcher-horrible park compared to Zito's going to a pitcher-friendly park is a good one.  It is Coors Field that has caused most fans to consider Mike to be even more of a disappointment than he has actually been. Mike's ERA has come down considerably since he joined the Braves.

    But Barry Zito has received the benefit of pitching in a pitchers' park over his entire career.  Barry should give up fewer homers in The Booth (Lord knows he had BETTER, given that he's averaged 27 homers against over the past three seasons.), but he may yield more hits.

    The most positive thing seems to be that Barry himself recognized his need to reinvent himself if he were to have a decent shot at justifying the contract.  He has added ten pounds of leg muscle, strenghthened and improved the flexibility of his core and is trying to use his body more in order to reduce any strain on his arm.

    He certainly pitched well earlier this week, albeit it over only two innings.  Barry has a history of bad Aprils and recently of poor Septembers. If he can eliminate any bad months, he should actually pitch pretty well.

    Given that Barry will AVERAGE more per season than Matt Cain will now make over the next five seasons combined, it is important to the Giants that he do so.  The Giants are investing roughly the same percentage of their available salary in Zito over the next seven years as they did with the other Barry over the past seven.  

    In Bonds they got the best player in the game.  In Zito they almost certainly didn't.  But in order to justify the contract, at the very least the younger Barry needs to be ONE of the best.  

    He needs to pitch much more like Mickey Lolich and Tom Glavine, his #5 and #6 comps, than like Mike Hampton, Ramon Martinez and Ray Culp, his #1, #2 and #3 comps.  He needs to average many more innings than Johnny Podres, his #4 comp and hold serve better than Juan Pizarro, Ron Darling, Kevin Appier and Jack McDowell, his #7 through #10 comps.

    At least one of his top comps isn't SAM McDowell.  Barry needs to pitch more like Gaylord Perry.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 9:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    At least one of his top comps isn't SAM McDowell.  Barry needs to pitch more like Gaylord Perry.

    Please. Do not ever mention this trade ever again. You make me hate Horace Stoneham all over again and he's been dead since 1990

    Save The Pitcher. Save The World

    by E Ticket on Mar 3, 2007 12:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    That we let him live that long
    reflects poorly on the fanbase.

    by Moggeee on Mar 3, 2007 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    People continuously say Zito has been in :"steady decline."  That is not at all accurate.  Since I am on my way to Vegas, to add to my already limitless wealth, I won't look up the peripherals.  But, based on ERA and ERA+, "steady decline" is not the best description.
      3.30, 4.48, 3.86 and 3.83 show a bad year and some steadying.  Same with his ERA+ of 129, 105, 116 and 116.  I would be well satisfied with ERAs of, say, 3.50 - 3.90 for 5 years and ERA+s of 100-120 for the same period.    

    by allfrank on Mar 3, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

    Frank assessment of a betting proposition
    In Vegas terms,

    Frank's All-in for Zito.

    by Moggeee on Mar 3, 2007 2:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Frank assessment of a betting proposition
    The Giants are certainly all in for Zito.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

    Re: Zito needs to get it done, quickly
    I also would be happy with those figures -- at say $55 million over five years.  But when one gives a guy the largest contract ever given a pitcher, I think one has a right to expect more (assuming one knew what he was doing when he awarded the contract).

    Barry HAS been in a steady decline, although certainly not a completely continuous one.  His Cy Young ERA was 2.75 in 2002.  In the three years beginning with 2004, he hasn't come within a run of that.

    If one looks at Barry's peripherals, the slide becomes even more noticeable.  There really wasn't much difference between his 2004 and 2006 seasons except for better bullpen support and more luck in 2006.

    If one looks at 221 IP, 211 H, 99 BB, 151 K, 27 HR and 13 HBP compared to 213 IP, 216 H, 81 BB, 163 K, 28 HR and 9 HBP, there isn't a whole lot to choose from.  The first-listed season has a better  hit rate and HR rate, but a worse strikeout rate, walk rate, K/BB rate, WHIP, and HBP rate.

    Aside from bullpen support and luck, how do YOU explain that Barry's ERA in one season was 4.48 and the other 3.83?  So 2004 and 2006 have been Barry's two worst seasons, although 2005 was merely his third-worst.  His three best seasons were in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

    Barry has been in decline.  Let's hope he reverses it -- or at the very least plateaus it.  But in order to earn his contract, he needs to reverse it.  To me it seems that the Giants paid for something akin to the Barry Zito of 2003 at a minimum.  And Barry hasn't been that pitcher for three years now.

    by sharksrog on Mar 3, 2007 9:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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