Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

by Bhaakon on Mar 10, 2007 12:17 PM PST Comment 19 comments

Here's an article from the CCTimes about analyzing managers in Bill James's latest handbook.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/sports/baseball/mlb/san_francisco_giants/16875803.htm

"According to a new book by James, Alou summoned 438 relievers last year; Bochy brought in 475.

Alou had 22 so-called quick hooks (pulling a starting pitcher early in the game); Bochy had 43.

Alou left starters in for nine long outings (120 pitches or more); Bochy did it five times."

Obviously the composition of the roster is just as (probably more) important than the manager in determining those stats, but still interesting.

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Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

I think we overemphasize the impact a manager has on his team -- especially with regard to strategy. I DO like guys like Manny Acta who are taking a bit of a fresh approach at strategy, using analysis rather than merely continuing to employ the same old saws. But there usually aren't huge differences between veteran managers.

Overall I like Bochy's tactics better than Felipe's. He seems to understand the usual futility of the non-pitcher sacrifice and that high-percentage base stealing is an asset, while low-percentage base stealing can be quite costly.

Bochy seems to better understand how best to use both starting pitchers and relievers than did the meddlesome Felipe. But the best potential value Bruce brings is probably the newness factor. Each of the past two times the Giants have hired a new manager, they have won 100 or more games. That almost certainly won't happen in 2007, but even a bump of ten games could put the Giants in the playoffs instead of watching them for a third straight year.

by sharksrog on Mar 10, 2007 12:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

The only complaints I've heard about Felipe from his relief pitchers was how often they had to get up and ready. They didn't mind pitching a lot, they just hated having to continually heat up and then not get the call. As a former catcher, I'll bet Bochy has more respect for his relievers arms.

Biggest mankinder in the history of no brain.

by Goofus on Mar 10, 2007 1:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

I only have the perspective of watching the Pads when they played the Giants, but Bochy seems to like to pull his starters a bit earlier than Felipe, but then sticks to a pretty tight 1 inning per reliever formula for the rest of the game. Of course, that presupposes that you have relievers capable of pitching a full inning which, perhaps, Felipe didn't have and Bochy may not have this year.

I don't think Felipe had a particularly quick hook for his starters. It's just when he started that merry-go-round with the relievers....... And yes, Felipe did warm them up a lot without using them. I remember one game in SF last year when he had a lefty and righty warm up all inning and then sat them both down, warmed somebody else up and brought in the third pitcher.

I not an expert at handling pitchers, but it seems to me that some of the long/middle relievers should be going more than one inning at a time to take some of the load off the later inning guys. Correia and Hennessey seem particularly well suited to a role like that. Possibly Munter and/or Pat Misch too?

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 10, 2007 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

Felipe did not have a quick hook for his starters. The exact opposite. In fact, if you look at PAP for 2006, you see Schmidt, Cain and Lowry all in the top fifteen. Felipe - for better or worse - left his starters in a long, long time, and was quite prepared to send a pitcher to the plate in an important late-inning situation rather than go to the pen. I believe Felipe's 2006 was the heaviest use of starters by any team in the National League, by some distance.

I make no comment as to whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.

by Salemicus on Mar 10, 2007 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

So I guessed he burned through both his starters' and relievers' arms. Great.

Biggest mankinder in the history of no brain.

by Goofus on Mar 10, 2007 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

Do Scott Munter and Pat Misch make up a monster misch mash? It caught on in a flash.

by sharksrog on Mar 10, 2007 11:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

It went out with a splash.
-winces-

Then it all came rushing back to me - like the hot kiss at the end of a wet fist!

by victor frankenstein on Mar 10, 2007 11:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

Then make an ugly woman your wife, if you want to be happy for the rest of your life.

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 11, 2007 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

My wife misunderstood that song, and thought it said to marry an ugly man. Thank God for that!!

by rxmeister on Mar 12, 2007 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

Considering I had a certain player from last year's team comment to me how great it is to have a manager who likes to talk with his players and how much more upbeat things in the clubhouse are with him, I can definitively say No, Bochy is not the same guy as Alou.

by BruteSentiment on Mar 11, 2007 7:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

The substance of managing/head-coaching is not about in-game strategy. In-game strategy is merely a symbolic representation of the head guy's management style and substance. No matter what a manager does, you have to remember he never touches a glove, ball nor bat. Players must execute. Players have to believe in what they do in order to execute. If they've no faith in their leader, there can be very little in the way of consistent success.

No different than ancient Spartans using phalanx formations in battle...It wasn't the novelty of the formation itself, it was the army with the most courage and mental discipline that won the skirmish. At least thats the way I understood phalanxs to work.

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 11, 2007 9:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

In baseball, it's usually the team with the better players that wins.

by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2007 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

You should have read the book, Thermopalyae accomplished little. Twas the Athenians who turned the tables on old Xerxes at Salamis, but with a trick play instead of heart, guts, or any of the other assorted coaching cliches.

If Greek history can teach us anything, it's that game strategy trumps desire to win.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Mar 12, 2007 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's Your Trump

What I've learned from studying the Greeks is it's nice to have Zeus on your side.

by Moggeee on Mar 12, 2007 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Are Alou and Bochy the same guy?

Well actually no. In a war it eventually comes down to logistics. Don't believe me? Look at the clusterfuck that this administration and the one before it have turned US Armed Forces into.

My reference was to 2 evenly matched opponents using the same formations. The one with brass balls wins.

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 12, 2007 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs