Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
The area papers are-a-buzzin' with the news of Sabean's non-extension. While I certainly don't agree with every Sabean move, I don't think he's worse than an average GM. Replacing an average GM can lead to new heights, but it can just as easily lead to new depths.
One of my biggest quibbles with Sabean is his resistance to building from within. This quote seems to deflect some of the blame, though:
Quite the pickle.
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77 comments
Comments
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Grant on Feb 24, 2007 10:37 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by wjackalope on Feb 24, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Feb 24, 2007 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by wjackalope on Feb 24, 2007 10:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
A GM...
by kenshin1 on Feb 24, 2007 10:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Feb 24, 2007 10:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by oldrips on Feb 24, 2007 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
If "mediocrity" means "eight winning seasons, four playoff appearances, one NL pennant and the best winning % in the division over the last ten years,"
then I agree.
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by oldrips on Feb 24, 2007 3:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
With all due respect -- you know that I know that you're a smart guy -- this is a gross oversimplification, and you know it.
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oversimplification?
by kenshin1 on Feb 24, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
However, to say that Sabean doesn't deserve his job as a result? I have to disagree with that. If there's one thing we're learning about the Giants this offseason, it's that Magowan doesn't give Sabean full control. The Zito signing has Magowan's fingerprints all over it. Of course, I don't have a spy to confirm this for me, but there's no way a deal this big gets done without the advice & consent of the owners at the very least.
Also, there is another way of looking at any long-term deal. "Okay, we're really paying upwards of $30 million a year for four good years, and if we're lucky we get a bonus season or three for free!!" From listening to Sabean talk over the years, I wouldn't be surprised if he used that kind of logic to justify the deal to himself.
All of this is really just me saying that at the end of the day, I hate the Neifi contract far more than I do the Zito one.
Neifi bad. That's something we can all agree on.
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
Greg Maddox
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Kenny Rogers
David Wells
Mike Mussina
Jamie Moyer
Bartolo Colon
All of them except Pedro and Bartolo were older in 1998 than BZ is today.
by bandog on Feb 24, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
The ones who were younger than Zito? Pedro Martinez, Omar Daal, Dustin Hermanson, Francisco Cordova, Mike Hampton, Kerry Wood, Carlos Perez, Jose Lima, Bartolo Colon and Chan Ho Park. Not one of those guys was healthy this season.
by gdog on Feb 25, 2007 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
Actually, it makes more sense when you look at it closer... the older players have a better track record. There aren't any really good comps for Zito on this list, good or bad. Only two players on this list were under 30 and had more than two solid (ERA+ > 115 as a full time starter) seasons behind them in 1998: Pedro and Mussina.
Now, if you were looking at the year 2000, Mike Hampton starts looking like a good comp, but I'll chalk that up to Coors Field trauma, if only because I won't be able to sleep tonight if I don't.
by Pants Man on Feb 25, 2007 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
Mike Hampton
Ramon Martinez
Ray Culp
Johnny Podres
Mickey Lolich
Tom Glavine
Juan Pizarro
Ron Darling
Kevin Appier
Those are some very good pitchers, and they had virtually zero value at age 35. Most were finished years earlier.
Here's Baseball Prospectus' top 20. Basically 6 of 17 (excluding Chen, Millwood and Kile) retained significant value into age 33-35:
1 Chuck Finley
2 Wilson Alvarez
3 Tom Glavine
4 Jim Palmer
5 Chan Ho Park
6 Vinegar Bend Mizell
7 Steve Carlton
8 Kevin Gross
9 Darryl Kile
10 Larry Dierker
11 Johnny Antonelli
12 Joe Nuxhall
13 Bruce Chen
14 Bob Rush
15 Ramon Martinez
16 Rudy May
17 Ron Darling
18 Kevin Millwood
19 Chris Short
20 Frank Viola
by gdog on Feb 25, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
Vinegar Bend Mizell can't possibly be a real person. I mean, nobody would give their kid the middle name Bend. It just doesn't make sense.
by howtheyscored on Feb 25, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: oversimplification?
by Pants Man on Feb 25, 2007 11:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not sign Zito's first-born as well?
The eighth year of the mind-boggling Zito contract will cost a minimum of $7 million and is "capped" at $18 million.
That contract is player-friendly.
And franchise-paralyzing.
by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Why not sign Zito's first-born as well?
I WAS encouraged by Barry's attempt this winter to somewhat reinvent himself, indicating he also sees the handwriting on his statistical wall. I was impressed that he added ten pounds of muscle to his legs, increased the strength and flexibility of his core and attempted to lenghthen his stride. Those things should help his fastball and take some of the pressure off his arm.
Barry has thrown the second-most pitches over the past six seasons of anyone in the majors, has been declining for four seasons and has faded badly in the past two Septembers.
by sharksrog on Feb 25, 2007 9:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 12:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: A GM...
by achiappanza on Feb 26, 2007 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Overall, today's news gives more credence to the idea that Sabean's strategy is heavily "influenced" by Magowan. So as much as kenshin might love to see Omar extended, I'd say that would be as risky as signing Zito. Perhaps any blame or credit for either action should be placed at a higher level than Sabean's desk.
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
On the other hand, I'd love to have a GM who's committed to blending the best of both scouting and statistical analysis. Here are some candidates:
1.) Grady Fuson of the Padres. He has a reputation as a "super-scout" kind of guy, but he's also worked in stat-heavy organizations like the A's, Rangers and Padres.
2.) Kim Ng of the Dodgers. She has a strong analytical background and has worked with a variety of bright executives with different strengths -- Brian Cashman, Paul DePodesta and Logan White. She also has said she would be committed to player development, and let's face it: We all love rooting for homegrown players.
3.) Chris Antonetti of the Indians. He's a prominent member of a front office that gets praised by both scouts and statheads.
As an outsider, of course, it's hard to evaluate these people without being able to do interviews.
by Dan from NM on Feb 24, 2007 11:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Brian Sabean has had two straight losing years -- one also heavily injury-influenced -- without cutting salaries. DePodesta had the one injury-negated season even while cutting salaries about 25%, and then was gone -- ironically so that he could be replaced by former Giants assistant GM Ned Colletti, for whom the coffers were opened.
Ned took advantage of the young players that had been drafted before either DePodesta or he was the GM and of the opening of the coffers that essentially allowed him to spend the money DePo had saved, and returned the healthier Dodgers to the playoffs.
Life in the big league front office can be an ironic thing.
by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Evans
by DrBGiantsfan on Feb 24, 2007 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Feb 24, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One Word
by Katman on Feb 24, 2007 11:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re:Two Words
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re:Two Words
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Feb 24, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Opps, almost forgot.
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Feb 24, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
He traded away Nathan. BIG DEAL. The Red Sox got rid of Babe Ruth. The pirates let Bonds go. The Reds traded Griffey, ETC, ETC, ETC.
The only real reason your criticism has any traction is that the center piece of the strategy has been hurt for two years. Not just Bonds. Nen, Benitez, effectively for 2 years, Alou (who played the equivalent of 55 games last year).
Some say he will only prove himself after Bonds. That process is starting. He already has a strategy (if you want to look for it): pitching, defense, speed. See his recent position player drafts: SPEED.
Look at the under 30 players he has: Zito, Cain, Lowry, Sanchez, Lincecum, Wilson, Correia, Hennessey, (and lessers, Taschner, Misch), Linden, Frandes, Ellison, Niekro (at least until the end of the weekend), Lewis, Ishikawa, etc, etc.
Now, if you just ignore his strategy past, and transitioning to future, criticism is both cheap and easy. But the bottom line is, even with the past two shitty years, he has won more games than any other team in our division - and (sorry, I don't have the figures) almost every other team in baseball.
by allfrank on Feb 24, 2007 11:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
The primary reason he was able to do so was that for most of that time, he had the best player in baseball. The past two seasons when he hasn't had baseball's best player, he hasn't fielded a .500 team.
Now we are seeing that he has done what so many of his fellow Americans have done themselves. He has mortgaged his future to live well today. "The future" began two seasons ago and isn't likely to get better in the short- or intermediate-terms.
Eventually "The Future," in the forms of Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona and Matt Cain, will begin. But right now the Giants have no impact bats between the ages of 16 and 42.
by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Do not shortchange Sabean by saying it was all Bonds. It simply wasn't. Bonds was the difference between contending for the playoffs and actually making the playoffs in many of those years. The rest of the team didn't get really mediocre until '04.
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
More important, to me, is that Sabean (Magowan?) seems to have no long-term plan for the franchise. Well, okay, now that he's signed Villalona I guess he has a start on a long-range plan. But, even in the midst of Barry's glory years a smart GM should have been thinking "this can't last," and taken steps to ensure a smooth influx of talent. And THAT is precisely what was wrong with the Tucker Incident(C) - on the heels of several poor drafts, when he most needs some kind of impact-potential player in the draft, he punts the 1st round pick! Yes, yes, I read the arguments in the other thread about what a shrewd move that was, diverting the money from the development side to the ML roster side. But that's pennywise and pound foolish, and as someone above said, that's too much like too many Americans today - live for today, and screw tomorrow. I just can't agree with that strategy.
Now, how much Magowan has influenced this stategy, I can't say. He does hold the purse strings. We'll have a better idea after Sabean is gone. And yes, his replacement might be worse. It will be interesting to see.
by Lyle on Feb 24, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
It's the same thing Beane fights against across the Bay. Without the "Big Three," they say, Beane is nothing. Only, the A's advanced farther in '06 than they ever did with the Big Three.
Folks like to pigeonhole people, including baseball GMs. I like to annoy people by pointing out the complexities. ;-)
by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
When Brian lost my blind trust
I dream of a Vladimir Guerrero that never was, and say "Why not?"
Then I have a good cry.
(And it's not dainty -- it's slobbering, and manly-like.)
by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 9:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by sharksrog on Feb 25, 2007 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by rxmeister on Feb 24, 2007 12:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Even if Tim Lincecum posts an ERA below 3.00 and the bullpen suddenly flowers, how are the Giants going to score enough runs to win the NL West?
Last season the Dodgers outscored their opponents by 69 runs, while the Giants were outscored by opposing teams by 44 runs. How are the Giants going to overcome that 113-run differential -- especially after losing Moises Alou? That's .7 runs per game.
Yes, it's possible the Giants could do so -- and I hope that they will. But most of their key players will likely need to have near-career years (or at least near the best they will ever post again, in the case of the old starting lineup) for that to happen. All the Giants need is a lot of luck.
by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
If BP and I are right about the Giants offense (I see 810 runs) and you and I are right about the Giants pitching giving up less then 750 runs then the Giants will have indeed come along way in making up the 113 run differential you are so concerned about.
by giantsrainman on Feb 24, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
My problem is that it appears very unlikely to me that they will indeed score 810 runs. It certainly wouldn't be impossible for them to do so, but I think they would need pretty good years from at least most of their starting players. 810 runs would represent a 64-run increase over last season -- despite losing Moises Alou, who was the Giants second-best hitter.
The Giants have improved their hitting at first base and likely will see slight increases from catcher, third base and in center field, but they have lost a lot in right field and are likely to see some decline from both their middle infield positions and even at pitcher.
Unless Barry Bonds makes quite a comeback, I just don't see the Giants scoring a lot more runs than they scored in 2006. Where do YOU see those extra 64 runs coming from?
by sharksrog on Feb 25, 2007 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/fantasy/dc/index.php?tm=SFN
Rainman sees another 35 runs and here is how.
by giantsrainman on Feb 26, 2007 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
OF: 1) Bonds will be both healthier and in better shape than last year. I think he produces, for '07, as he did the last half of '06. 2) Winn was both hurt and well below his recent career average. I think he returns to about his recent career average, say 280-290, w/ 16-19 HRs. 3) Roberts/Linden are vastly superior to 440ABs from Finley and 225 ABs from Alou. The defense is also better.
IF: 1b) While we will all miss Niekro/Hillenbrand, the platoon of Klesko/Aurelia will provide equal defense and more offensive production. 2b) Despite Durhams reinventing himself as a power hitter and his recent improvement as a hitter, a slight decline can be expected. Maybe not though, as he does like a challenge and he is going to hit with runners on a lot, meaning the pitcher will be coming from the stretch. I say his BA drrops 10 points, his homers drop by 4 or 5, but his RBIs go up about 25 as a result of more men on base. SS) Very hard to predict. It is easy to say he will drop off because of age. But it is a contract year, and he has announced he wants to return. Additionally, my impression is that last year he kind of transformed himself into more of a singles hitter (sorry, I can't open the splits on the MLB stat site to get his before ASG and after ASG stats to supoort this position), but I think hitting behind Roberts, who will be on base a lot, and with these other factors, will give him only a slightly lower BA/OBP. 3b) Not the sink hole it was last year. Sabean has wisely given Bochy 3 options. Feliz, of course, but if he is hitting sub 260 and leading the league in GIDP, there is both Aurelia and Frandsen. I think Aurelia will hit about 270-280. Frandsen has a chance to take the position if he really can hit.
C A year of Molina/Alfonzo will produce a lot more O than Matheny/Alfonzo.
Overall, I think the Giants will score 30 to 80 more runs this season than last, more likely 45-60. The rest comes from a better rotation and a better pen.
by allfrank on Feb 24, 2007 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
The answer is no. You can average out his 10 years, but it doesn't change the fact that he has done a bad job for several years.
As they say in the mutual fund world, "past performance is no indicator of future success," mostly because 99% of fund managers flame out if they stay in the business long enough. Should Sabean stick around for another 5 years until his overall record is just .500?
by gdog on Feb 25, 2007 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
So rebuilding doesn't faze me, so long as it's smartly done, with some sort of clear plan and purpose.
Of course, Magowan isn't worried about folks like me necessarily, but with the more casual fan, the people who turn a 35,000 crowd into a 41,000 sellout.
But rebuilding IS necessary, and delaying it only means that when the crash comes, it's going to take that much longer to rebuild. Instead of a couple lean seasons and then back in serious contention, you might be looking at a longer period of low attendance due to shitty play. Which doesn't help Magowan's bottom line any better.
by eugene on Feb 24, 2007 12:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
The Giants were right up there with Red Sox and Yankees and Braves in this regard with the exception of a couple of bad seasons, until Magowan decided to meddle, fire Baker, and not sign Vlad.
Neither the Braves, nor the Yankees have ever stopped to rebuild. And they have the winning seasons to show for it. On the other hand you have moronic owners in Los Angeles who are egomaniacal, impatient, star struck know-nothings who up until the last couple of years couldn't get the hell out of their own way tearing things down to rebuild or pursue new directions. Their track record since the 1988 World Series sucks compared to the Giants, who under Magowan have never stopped to rebuild.
Rebuilding is bullshit media hype propogated by the pindicks Bruce Jenkins, Ray Ratto, Scott Ostler, ESPN sycophants and jerkoffs who learned baseball playing with dicecups, a game board, and a double-entry ledger filled with monopoly money. Show me an ownership that is in "redirection and rebuilding mode" and I'll show you a team full of suckbag loser freeks.
The Forty Niners never had to stop and rebuild under Eddie DeBartolo. A combination of his idiot sister and the salary cap ruined the 49ers...not a lack of "rebuilding"
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
We can argue about whether the Giants should or shouldn't "rebuild" until the gangrenous flesh of our fingers sloughs off the bone, but team's rarely decide to rebuild: it's forced upon them. Barring a miraculous (and immediate) turnaround from the farm, a slew of extremely fortunate FA signings, and/or a bump up to a Red Sox-sized payroll, the Giants are going to find themselves in a de facto rebuild in the near future.
by Bhaakon on Feb 24, 2007 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Its a mindset. You take a George Steinbrenner, Eddie D. mindset. You decide that you are going to be the best there is. All of the time. No excuses. That is what Magowan and Company sounded like when they were campaigning for the stadium.
He does not talk like a winner. He talks like a guy who has one foot in penny-pinching mode(Vlad) and the next day one foot in Steinbrenner's world (signing Zito to a virtual eternal contract).
I am extremely leery of a guy who only takes credit for success, (signing Bonds) and no responsibility for shortcomings. Not pursuing the pitching neccessary to get over the top in 2002 and letting Kent get away. Instead he lets Sabaen get roasted.
Bottom line is this. Jeff Kent's bat was and still has never been replaced.
Clark had Mitchell. When Mitch's bat was not replaced, the Giants went south.
Mays had McCovey and vice versa. When Mays went, so did the Giants successes.
Jack Clark never had anybody steady here, and he wallowed until he got to St. Louis.
But as I wrote elsewhere, if they win, they win and everybody's happy.
Insofar as any "rebuild" is concerned..it depends on what the definition of rebuild is. In Giant history, that has meant, cutting the shit out of payroll, which preceeded the eventual sale of the franchise to somebody with the finances and mindset to once again try and get over the top.
Stoneham gave up.
Lurie gave up.
Magowan is showing signs of lost patience with his toy.
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just Shoot Me
I can't afford a self-induced depression this spring before the Giants' regular season has a chance to legitimately send me into one.
by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
The 49ers had that monster 1979 draft, and with other drafts around the same time stockpiled homegrowns like Montana, Lott, Rice, Jones, The O-Line (I believe the O-Line, could be wrong). Then that team was kept strong with free spending (culminating, though with a slightly different core or players - Young being key- I'd say, in the "this year or bust" free agent-o-rama of the 1993 season).
Then the Yankees, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong), came up strong initially with a core of homegrowns including Jeter, Rivera, Posada, and Pettitte, which then through the years has been held up with free spending (all those players, consequently, are still on the team - though Pettitte was away for a while).
So I don't think that it's just spending. I think there's a pretty solid pattern here. The 49ers, arguably, started to fall apart when their core was on its way out (lucky to replace Montana with Young who can still be argued as a youth move). This was bad timing because of the ouster of the DeBartalo's, so we can't know what would have happened if spending continued. The Yankees have yet to fall apart completely, but they still have a lot of that core together.
The A's are winning with young, homegrown talent. Even the Red Sox can point to some small core of homegrown players that keep the team grounded. The Braves during their run had a ton of in house talent.
Anyway, I'm just trying to show the value of building if it is combined with the value of spending. I think the A's haven't won a Series with these teams because they haven't been able to spend. Even the Sox won one because they were able to spend. So disparity is still a big part of it, but rebuilding is very often a necessary part of the puzzle.
by howtheyscored on Feb 25, 2007 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by giantsrainman on Feb 25, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Bhaakon on Feb 25, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by allfrank on Feb 25, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
Actually, don't. I know most of the names myself, and they aren't that much more impressive than what the Giants have had over the last decade.
by Bhaakon on Feb 25, 2007 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My take on Sabaen's strategy.
Two Words.
Metal Bats.
Talent displayed under the same conditions as the MLB game is hard enough to project in young people. Throw in an abberation like super-alloyed metal bats and you reduce your probabilites of succesful projections by a huge amount. In addition to trying to predict what an 18 year old kid is going to develop into by age 24, you now have to project what this 18 year old is going to be able to do when you replace his kryptonite bat with a wood one in the ensuing years leading up to the Big Leagues.
Generally, if a pitcher can make the transition to working both sides of the plate after college/high school, and pitching against metal bats, he can continue to develop. To wit...Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain. If a kid can dominate against his peers using metal bats, it is easier to forecast success for him than it is to predict what a kid with a metal bat who has to transition to wood bats is going to do.
Sabaen is merely playing the odds. Particularly since almost half of his roster is made up of pitchers, it is more dollar wise to develop as many of them as you can, and overspend on position players and the occasional Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt, Rob Nen.
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: My take on Sabaen's strategy.
The Giants simply took more chances on pitchers than other teams, and therefore ended up with more pitching prospects and fewer hitting prospects than most other teams. Dollar-wise, it might be a good idea to throw money at pitchers that are more of a sure thing than most, but definitely not your garden variety tantalizing question mark, a la AJ Burnett, and not even the Matt Morrises of the world, who are relatively sure things, but sure mediocrities. I'd direct my organization to go for large quantities of potential quality with the pitchers, hope a few pan out, and try to trade the flameouts before anyone notices the burning. With hitters, I'd be much more willing to take my chances on free agents, because my confidence in projecting what they'll do is so much greater.
by David Arnott on Feb 25, 2007 2:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hitters vs Pitchers
Look at the current vaunted Dodger farm system. Kemp and Ethier blew hot and cold last year. Colletti signed Luis Gonzalez rather than go into the season with Kemp and Ethier as two of his OF's and that's with Loney and Nomar as potential OF candidates to boot. Guzman has been a huge disappointment and was traded. Coletti is reportedly not a huge fan of Andy LaRoche.
The transition from AAA to the majors is much more of an adjustment for hitters than pitchers. Most rookie hitters struggle while it's not at al uncommon for rookie pitchers to come in and dominate right away.
I actually think pitchers are more projectable if, and here's the catch, they stay healthy. The big risk for pitchers isn't lack of projectability so much as they are at much higher risk of career ending, or at least altering, injury.
by DrBGiantsfan on Feb 25, 2007 7:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hitters vs Pitchers
by zenbitz on Feb 26, 2007 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Andy the Bagman
Uhm, this guy has less credibility when it comes to the Giants than Jenkins, Lupica, Del Grande, and a slew of other hacks.
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 1:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sweeney for Greenies
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Feb 24, 2007 2:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Sweeney for Greenies
Needless to say, I'm building around speed.
by juanboy on Feb 24, 2007 2:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Opposing Philosophies
Mando's Gigandos.
by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 9:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Andy the Bagman
by Dan from NM on Feb 24, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rebuild... before it's too late!
by theclap on Feb 25, 2007 12:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by zenbitz on Feb 25, 2007 1:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
As for Sabean I can't say it's entirely his fault and I suspect signing "older players" had a marketing component to it but any idiot with a scorecard could have told you two years ago that the Giants needed some work with the bats and you had 2-3 years to do it before the offense fell off a cliff. Sabean did NO-TH-ING. Drafting good players is fantastic but that's risky and takes years. Draft prospects! Trade them!
There are many teams out there with great young bats and no pitching in their system. These teams can't afford to sign pitching so they MUST develop it. After watching Beane very closely for years I can tell you that Sabean has completely fumbled the post-Bonds rebuild and now it's a Cubs-ian effort to rebuild the offense.
Are there actual rumors of ownership change or just speculation (based on historical patterns)? That would be a refreshing turn of events!
by lastexit on Feb 25, 2007 4:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by Bhaakon on Feb 25, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
by lastexit on Feb 25, 2007 4:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
He's a fine player, but he's not as valuable as the buzz (and, therefore, his pricetag) suggests, and the Giants can ill afford another pop-less bat at a power position.
by Bhaakon on Feb 25, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
As for Zito, put down the number sheet and pick up your eyes, he's way better than Ron Darling ever was.
by lastexit on Feb 26, 2007 12:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm a day late and a dollar short to this thread.
I think Ratto has this one right. Magowan is full of sh*te. It became apparent during the "lunatic fringe" response to the failure to pursue Vlad that Sabean isn't entirely at the controls here. That response was a little too vociferous, for a signing that would've made sense to most GMs. After all, who got him? The team that beat us in the World Series. Sabean was saying, "you just can't see the boundaries that I'm working under, but I'll give you a hint, Vlad is out of bounds." The Bonds strategy is an ownership strategy, designed to fill the ballpark, and it has worked. The Bonds train ends after this season, and the rebuilding begins. Except it's not a full rebuild. The '08 rotational options (Zito, Cain, Lowry, Sanchez, Lincecum) is an excellent foundation for the future.
Seems to me that if we make the playoffs this year, Sabean will be allowed to oversee the rebuild, and that's iffy. It all depends on Bonds. He has to have a good year because there isn't enough upside in the rest of the lineup. If we don't make the playoffs, Magowan is going to make Sabean the fall guy. The "we can't afford to rebuild" BS is aimed at Sabean. The translation is that Magowan doesn't think we should have to rebuild after Barry, and that's the performance bar he wants to set. Bay Area fans are some of the most forgiving in sports, and the Giants' base would certainly understand the price of getting younger. We will lose some of the fair weather folks but that is inevitable in the post Bonds world. If we had reason to believe we could get Billy Beane to cross the Bay, it would be worth it. Otherwise, I think Sabean has earned the right to try to rebuild his way.
by UVHaight on Feb 26, 2007 10:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Saturday Morning: High 'n' Dry
I think Sabean did a remarkable job from when he arrived, through the end of 2002. As a result, the Giants saw post-season play in 1997, 1998 (sort of), 2000, 2002 and 2003.
The one thing that can't be brushed aside, though, is the repeated failure of the farm system, particularly with respect to position players.
In the beginning, no one seemed to notice this trend, and since Sabean brought with him from New York a reputation as one who had been instrumental in developing the Yankees then-vaunted farm system, the league seemed to just assume that the Giants' minor leaguers would also be high quality.
So, Sabean was able to foist off a host of not-even-mediocre farm system flotsam and jetsam to unsuspecting GMs around the league, for their soon-to-be free agent stars. Unfortunately for Sabean and the Giants, two things seem to have changed since the end of 2002:
- The league's GMs now seem to be wise to the fact that, once you get past the odd Lincecum, Cain and Villalona, the Giants' farm system is largely bereft of real talent. Where Sabean once was able to unload no-talents like Ryan Vogelsong, Nate Bump, Chris Magruder and Darin Blood back in the day, he now can't even get a sniff when attempting to peddle the Todd Lindens, Merkin Valdezes, Erick Threetses and Tony Torcatos of the more recent farm system.
- Teams like the Pirates, Royals and Marlins, when faced with their few stars' impending free agency, once gladly cast off those players into Sabean's waiting arms. Now, they are more likely to keep those stars and sign them to long-term contracts--thanks in large part to revenue sharing.
And while the pre-2003 Sabean made savvy (some might say "lucky", but not me) trades for Kirk Rueter, J.T. Snow and Jeff Kent that paid huge dividends for many years, his more recent trades for players like Randy Winn and Ricky Ledee have disappointed, by comparison.
So, while I'm one who appreciates what Brian Sabean did prior to 2003, I still think he has to be called to account for his failures over the past few years.
One thing I really have to reject here is the notion that the Giants haven't really been able to develop their farm system because the team was built around Barry. Or that the Giants are unable to rebuild as long as Barry remains on the payroll. The rationale here seems to be that having a player like Barry Bonds and having a productive farm system are two mutually exclusive things.
First of all Bonds is only one player. Granted, he's been a colossus for the Giants but another seven position players are still needed to fill out a lineup and field balls that are put into play.
If the argument is that Bonds takes up a huge chunk of payroll, then wouldn't it have made even more sense for the Giants to have developed some decent hitters in their farm system to fill out the lineup? Instead Sabean has forever had to go outside the Giants farm system--usually at great expense--to bring in bona fide hitters (some less than bona fide--yes, I'm looking at you, Edgardo, Michael Tucker, Steve Finley and Shea Hillenbrand).
The thing is, developing a productive farm system seems to be one of the least expensive things a baseball organization can do. It certainly seems to have been the case with teams like the A's, Marlins and Expos/Nationals.
The other thing is, as long as the Giants were going to have a farm system, as long as they were going to pay good money to all those scouts, managers, coaches, instructors (roving and otherwise); and as long as they were going to draft, sign and bring up all those position players...why not actually have a few of them be good once in a while? Wouldn't that have been a good thing?
So, this I think is something that Brian Sabean is now having to answer for, and rightly so.
by tobias on Feb 27, 2007 7:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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