The Rumors...

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 4, 2007 8:42 AM PST in News

...I'm sick of them already. Ranking the rumors:

Lincecum for Jay Bruce - Nice and interesting rumor with a smoky nose and peaty aftertaste. Subtle complex flavors. I'm not sure if I'd like the trade, but I'd enjoy this rumor again. A-
Lincecum for Alex Rios - Strong and unpleasant acidic bite. Aftertaste is not unlike licking a bus station urinal. This rumor really feels rushed, and the quality obviously suffers from the impatience. I do have a question about this passage:
The Blue Jays braintrust spent part of the day in their suite viewing videotape of Cain and Lincecum. The latter has electric, Burnett-type stuff. His delivery is a whirling, back-bending one that puts heavy torque on his side, but he threw that way throughout high school. The Blue Jays are split, with some believing Cain is a more polished pitcher better suited to the rigours of the American League East.
Great description, but the author didn't tell us where the box of Kleenex was. You'll get one of those pitchers only if you pry them out of our cold, dead hands, Toronto. The rumor gets a D- for scaring the bejeebus out of me.

The trade will be Edwin Encarnacion for Noah Lowry. I'm not astute enough to know if that's going to be enough for either side, but it makes too much sense to not happen. It seems like the Giants could ask for a bit more than Encarnacion, so the real question will be if the Giants can squeeze Joey Votto out with Jonathan Sanchez, Brad Hennessey, and friends as a part of the deal. Probably not, but a fella has to dream.

Open Winter Meetings Thread.

Tweet Comment 118 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Re: The Rumors...

Grant you really have to stop with this wry humor, you're killing me...I'm splitting a gut!

by Buzzword on Dec 4, 2007 8:51 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Lincecum for Jay Bruce, number one prospect in the solar system with a bullet? I'll take that. That's a deal with huevos, baby. Cojones. Kishkas. Brass.

"There's not enough bases out there to intentionally walk everybody you want to." - Grady Little

by leftymalo on Dec 4, 2007 8:51 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

if i'm running things the Jays would have to give us Rios AND Glaus AND Lind for me to even consider it. The writer of that Toronto article seems pretty delusional - Giants "WILL trade Cain or Lincecum, Alex Rios WOULD get the deal done"... sounds a lot like "let's trade Lowry for Cabrera" to me.

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 4, 2007 9:00 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I'm just gonna attribute that stupid rumor to the fact that the writer is Canadian. He probably got stuck covering the Jays because the Leafs can't have such an idiot on their beat.

Don't we deserve to rip off Toronto after the Accardo trade? I'd give them Lowry for Rios and call it even. Also, the Giants should require that the idiot writer be fired or sent to cover the Leafs minor league affiliate.

The 2008 Giants: Think 2005 Rockies with a payroll twice as big and half as much talent.

by BCsteve on Dec 4, 2007 9:34 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Maybe the writer was confused by the unnaturally high value of the Canadian Dollar.

by Gordo on Dec 4, 2007 10:12 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

If we could get Encarnacion and Votto without giving up Lincecum and Cain, I'd consider the off-season a success if it ended right there. We'd have kids under control at 3B and 1B for years to come. It'd be fun as hell to watch Cain, Lincecum, Votto, Encaracion, Schierholz, Frandsen, Wilson and Lewis/Davis all hit their peak years together.

My only caveat is that I would hate to part with both Sanchez and Correia.

This is my signature, not yours.

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 9:37 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

you got that right. it would be the best off season in recent memory.

"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Dec 4, 2007 9:41 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

It would be awesome indeed. Maybe we could make it Lowry+Sanchez+Hennessey and keep Correia.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 4, 2007 11:31 AM PST up reply actions

Not worth starting a diary, but...

OK, this is more "gossip" than rumor, but did anyone watch the Warriors game last night and see Biedrins' girfriend sitting there with his parents. Yowza! I found this thread with a picture of her: http://www.talk-sports.net/nba/girlfriend.aspx/Andris_Biedrins

If they ever break up, I'm going to introduce her to Howtheyscored since he's like a son to me and I'd want to oogle my daughter-in-law.

This is my signature, not yours.

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 9:41 AM PST reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

It was definitely worth the diversion, but little else for an over-the-hill old fart like me.

by Buzzword on Dec 4, 2007 9:52 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

You'd have an awfully damn hard time tearing me away from my current girlfriend of five years, and she's waaaay too blonde and seems to like tall guys, but you're free to try!

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 4, 2007 11:37 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

Whoops, pronoun confusion. To clarify, my girlfriend is not blonde and obviously has no problems with short men.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 4, 2007 1:35 PM PST up reply actions

Eh....

She looks like a standard issue blond. Not bad, and way out of my league, but those are a dime a dozen in sports star and celebrity circles.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 4, 2007 1:09 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Eh....

Weird fact: though the distinction has muddied in modern use, the word "blonde" is used to describe females while the word "blond" is used to describe basically anything else (male, mixed gender, and uncertain).

I always liked that, for some reason. "Oh, it's a dude? Well, get rid of that silent 'e' then!"

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 4, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Eh....

What about brownies?

Oh wait, I can answer that question on my own. They keep the e but add an i. They are blondies.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Dec 4, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Eh....

The fact that you can can give an "eh" to a gal that's way out of your league is cute.

When they showed her in the stands last night on TV, she looked even better. (I'm a sucker for a smile that lights up a room.) She also looked like she was fun; good-naturedly poking Biedrins mom when he made a big free-throw.

Thigh-bone girl has competition.

"Hillary has that nomination sewn up." - rxmeister 11/9/07

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 1:47 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

What is the enfatuation with ultra blondies that look like carrots? I really don't get much out of that wierd looking orange skin. Give me a brunette like that Victoria's Secret model that is with Marco Jaric. Mmm, mmm, delicious.

Brian Wilson for Closer!

by BawLa on Dec 4, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

I don't have a thing for blondes or orange skin. (I'm perfectly content with my mocha-skinned beauty of a wife.) She just looked pretty groovy last night...that's all.

"Hillary has that nomination sewn up." - rxmeister 11/9/07

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 1:50 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Not worth starting a diary, but...

Don't get me wrong, I'd hit it once for me, and once for all the crippled kids out there. But in terms of beauty, I just don't think the blonde carrots hold their weight.

Brian Wilson for Closer!

by BawLa on Dec 4, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Sorry if this was posted in a diary or elsewhere, but I just saw that the Astros signed Kaz Matsui, which leaves the Rockies with a hole at second base. Sounds like the Rox might try to get Ian Stewart to play there (not his natural position, of course), but could we somehow take this opportunity to unload Durham (and, ideally, his salary) and get something from them (low-level prospect) in return?

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Dec 4, 2007 9:43 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Seriously, I don't like either trade and I think it's obvious, we need to address our needs. I know Jay Bruce is rated number, but I bet Lincecum can strike him out any day any place. I would much rather go Encarnacion, Votto and Hamilton. If the Reds want another player, ie. a Lewis or Ortmeier fine.

by Buzzword on Dec 4, 2007 9:46 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I'll say it again. Lincecum for Bruce, get it done Sabean.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 9:51 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I'm still of the opinion that a one-for-one trade doesn't address the many gaping holes we have around the diamond, and doesn't return us to respectability any faster. One-for-ones should only apply to non-Caincecums, and only then if we're stealing from the other team. Cain or Tim for a few guys works, and those guys had better be damn fine players, or damn fine players-in-the-making. But one-for-one doesn't make us better.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Dec 4, 2007 10:03 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

except that REALLY good position players can make more of an impact than even Cy Young caliber starters for a team over the course of a season. e.g. who'd you rather have to start a team: A-Rod or Santana? You take the guy who plays every day.

Still you're right, it would be nice to fill multiple positions if we traded part of Lincecain. I just don't think it would e completely necessary depending on just how promising of a player we'd be getting in return.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 4, 2007 11:38 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I think that's a great point about who you'd rather start a team with, but if you're having to rebuild a team, I think you need to take the steps necessary to really improve. To sacrifice one strength to gain a different strength doesn't ultimately make your team that much better in the short or long term. Simply my take on it.

Also, "strength" seems to be the toughest word for me to type... Weird.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Dec 4, 2007 12:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Well I disagree. Adding Bruce to this team is a step in the right direction to rebuilding this team with young positional talent. The Giants are full of pitching talent, maybe not elite talent like Cain and Lincecum. But still there are plenty of pitchers on the way. The Giants won't be contending in 2008 so I say lay out a plan to contend in 2009/10.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 1:45 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I think we only make this trade if we plan on using him as trade bait as well. Did anyone not notice that Jay Bruce is a lefty? If he was the size of Adam Dunn, that might be a possibility, but I his true power potential will not be realized in SF.

by Sigualicious on Dec 4, 2007 12:40 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

You obviously don't know much about Bruce. He has more then enough power to hit balls into the cove and he's only 20. As he gets older his frame will fill out and result in even more power.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

And you obviously don't know much about PacBell Park's right field. Seriously. Pacbell will be the place where leftys come to die. Plain and simple.

by Sigualicious on Dec 4, 2007 5:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Believe me I know the park very well. I've been to hundreds of games. One of which was last year when I saw Jay Bruce hit a ball off the center field wall 20 feet to the right of the 421' marker. Bruce ended up with a triple out of it. Trust me he'd develop plenty of power to pop balls into the water.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 5:23 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Sticking with the Blue Jays theme...
How about Lowry & Roberts for Glaus & Rios?

Next, pursue the Durham for Sexson idea, and the Giants have a new 3-4-5 in the line-up...

Then spin off Steve Kline... and that's a heck of an off-season.

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Dec 4, 2007 10:16 AM PST reply actions

that trade would never happen.

Ever. Period. Do you guys have the right Alex Rios? The one that was fourth for RF in VORP this year with an OPS+ of 122?

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 4, 2007 10:23 AM PST up reply actions

Re: that trade would never happen.

Now, yeah, that trade wouldn't happen, but because Roberts is worthless and expensive and the Jays know too much about peripherals to take a chance on Lowry and Glaus isn't worthless and Rios isn't bad -- not because Rios and his .297/.354/.498 is no star in RF in the same league in which Ordonez hit .361/.433/.592

Rios is better than anything the Giants have, but that's just because the Giants suck.

by wcw on Dec 4, 2007 1:31 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

if that blue jays trade went down there would be a spontaneous ticket-tape parade down market street for sabean, with a little paper mache version filling in for the real deal, who'll be busy avoiding the devil with robert johnson.

Dodgers fans eat their young.

by redhornet78 on Dec 4, 2007 10:29 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Kid
MLBR reports that Seattle has not received one inquiry for Sexson...even from Sabean. By all accounts that deal is DOA...sorry:(

by Buzzword on Dec 4, 2007 10:43 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

If the Giants really want to trade their over-priced veteran disapointments (Roberts, Durham, Aurilia) they could do so... expect to take back similar "problem players" in return.

Sexson, Giambi, Glaus all fit the bill- over-priced busts with a slim chance of a huge bounce-back year, all in conract/walk years. All corner infielders with 20 hr+ power, of which the Giants now have none.

The Blue Jays are desperate for pitching; the Giants are desperate for hitting. Alex Rios for Tim Lincecum is high risk, high reward. Too rich for my blood, personally. Even though Rios is a legit 30/30 all star talent, Lincecum could be COULD BE once in a lifetime.

If Sabean plays this smart I truly think he could pry Rios loose from the Jays for a rich package of pitching-- Lowry, Hennessy, Sanchez, and Kline for Rios? Rios & Lind?

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Dec 4, 2007 12:58 PM PST up reply actions

Sexson/Durham not happening (at least straight up)

Also, put the kibbosh (please!) on any Richie Sexson-Ray Durham rumors. We mentioned before that the Tim Lincecum combo wasn't going to work, nor are the Giants willing to do a Sexson-Durham straight up. They apparently consider it trading one bad contract for another and they get the short end of the stick. So, nix to that.

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2007/12/ms_not_out_of_bedard_hunt.html

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 10:02 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

"The Blue Jays braintrust spent part of the day in their suite viewing videotape of Cain and Lincecum."

Did I miss the Cain/Lincecum sex tape?

by NuschlersDip on Dec 4, 2007 10:29 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Slashfic redux!

"When Jackson Williams thinks of how many times Madison Bumgarner has tried to kill Tyler Walker..."

by multiphasic on Dec 4, 2007 10:41 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I abstain from voting on Jay Bruce for Lincecum. I vote no on carrots with blonde hair, and I also vote no on Cain/Lincecum sex tape. Sorry.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 4, 2007 2:38 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Encarnacion for Lowry does make a ton of sense, though we should find a way to finagle Hatteberg into the deal. Votto has made Hatteberg obsolete for the Reds, so he might be available for chicken-feed.

Hatteberg posted a .310/.394/.474 line last year. Numbers like that would be a freakin' revelation at 1B for the Giants.

P.S. Best line out of the winter meetings so far: a Baseball Prospectus writer walks past Cal Ripken, Steve Finley, and Jim Leyritz all sitting and chatting. Someone remarks, "All that's missing is Brian Sabean and a pen."

by drelmoraisin on Dec 4, 2007 10:37 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Shoot, maybe they'll even want Aurilia back.

by achiappanza on Dec 4, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Let us not underestimate the power of the Dusty. Teams with "proven" veterans unite! Your day is at hand!

Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Dec 4, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Please no Hatteburg. His last year with the A's he posted a .256/.334 .343 line. Then he went to the reds and got all Aurillia.

2007
Home: .370.436/.571
Away: .244 .351.366

Yes, that is a near .200 point difference in slugging. He would make JT Snow look Bondsian at Mays field.

However is 3 career stolen bases put him in a tie with our own Bengie molina, which I'm sure would spark some friendly competition.

by mxmob33 on Dec 4, 2007 10:49 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Over the last three years, Hatteberg has had an OBP vs righties of around .390. That's a good player if he never hits a single home run.

This is why I'm not particularly interested in a Sexson deal, even if we get him for free. Pick up someone like Hatteberg or Shawn Green, platoon him with a lefty-masher like Ortmeier or Aurilia, and you've got equivalent (or better) production and much better defense.

by Evan on Dec 4, 2007 11:27 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Then you're still just talking JT Snow without the defense. Gets on base at a high rate, but extremely slow on the bags and very little pop.

You're probably right that there's still enough value there, but I've grown tires of slappy 1-baggers.

by mxmob33 on Dec 4, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Slappy 1-baggers are okay, if you've got someone like Bonds batting behind him to move him on to 3rd with a double, or drive him home with a homer, but the Giants don't have a single guy on their roster right now who even hit 20 homers last year. They need to add somebody with pop. I agree.

by jwirt19 on Dec 4, 2007 11:56 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Matter of taste, I guess. I'm sick of the Giants not having any power, but I'm also sick of them not getting on base.

First choice is certainly to come up with a good young all-around player to play first. Failing that, I'd try to put together a cheap platoon (especially since we're paying Aurilia anyway).

by Evan on Dec 4, 2007 12:13 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

OBP rank for the 2007 playoff teams --

NYY: 1, BOS: 2, PHI: 3, COL: 4, LAA: 5, CLE: 7, CHI: 17, ARI: 29 (Inexplicable)

Homerun rank for the 2007 playoff teams --

PHI: 2, NYY: 4, CLE: 9, COL: 13(T), ARI: 13(T), BOS: 18, CHI: 21, LAA: 27

So yea, power probably helped some of these clubs reach the playoffs. That would make a good debate. What wouldn't make a good debate, however, is whether or not a high team OBP correlates to winning baseball. I only bring this up to illustrate that power numbers are overrated. I dont care if we dont have a single guy hit 20 bombs next year as long as we've got a team OBP above .340.

Hopefully Carney Lansford can teach these guys how to take a few pitches.

Vizquel leads by a higher level of example. --BS (Brian Sabean)

by Woody Wins on Dec 4, 2007 12:45 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Point well taken. I agree that we need to increase overall OBP. Just saying we also need somebody capable of providing the "blast" to the old saying, all we need is a bloop and a blast and we're right back in this one. Although, as someone else mentioned, we probably wouldn't have the power potential of some of these players recognized, as we play in a pitchers park, and Great American Ballpark is, well.... you know.

by jwirt19 on Dec 4, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

No offense to you jwirt, but I once saw Francona, during an in-game interview when the Sox were down by three, say "All we need is a walk, a bloop, and a blast."

I disliked Francona long before that day, but hearing him say that really cemented my hate.

I dunno, I just really hate that saying I guess because it really just subscribes to getting lucky.

Vizquel leads by a higher level of example. --BS (Brian Sabean)

by Woody Wins on Dec 4, 2007 3:23 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

No offense taken, but I would still like to see the Giants add SOMEONE who can hit homers. It's never a bad thing to have at least one guy who can hit for power in your lineup. As long as that guy isn't hitting 20 homers, while his OBP is .290 CoughFELIZcough.

by jwirt19 on Dec 4, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions

Teahen Rumo

The Cubs have talked to the Royals about Mark Teahen; the Royals like Matt Murton.

I'd love to acquire Teahen to play 3b - I have to believe that the Giants can do better than Matt Murton?

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM PST reply actions

Re: Teahen Rumor

Since the Royals are reaching an agreement with Jose Guillen, I wonder what that does to their overabundance of 1b/3b, DH and cOF prospects. And why would they want Murton - another OFer, when they could have a SP+SP/RP?

by kennv on Dec 4, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Teahen Rumor

Possibly because they might move David DeJesus to Atlanta or some other team in need of a CF. They could then flip Gathright over to CF and wouldn't need to trade Teahen.

But if they trade Teahen for Murton, which doesn't really make sense to me (Teahen for a pitcher, I could see), then Murton plays RF/LF and Billy Butler plays first and Justin Huber DH's. On the other hand, Murton is right handed and they might think they have a glut of left-handed hitters over there.

I don't know where that leaves Ross Gload or Ryan Shealy, both of whom missed a bunch of time last year with injuries.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 10:21 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Teahen Rumor

of course, by signing Guillen, there's less of a need for Teahen in the OF. They could flip him to first base, but then they have about 5 guys to put at 1b/DH, so moving Teahen for a bat makes sense. They'll probably move Teahen OR DeJesus, but not both.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 10:36 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Teahen Rumor

And I'd like Teahen to end up in SF. The giants need a good 1b/3b/dh guy. and have some pitching to send. did Sabean run over the Royal's GM's cat or something? why when their surpluses have so clearly fit the Giant's needs and vice versa is their no trade? They don't want to sign Silva or Kuroda... they must want one of Lowry, Sanchez, Correia, or Hennessey... If they really want to spend money send them Durham to sweeten the deal.

by kennv on Dec 5, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I LOL'd so hard at the description of the Lincecum/Rios trade. Just wanted to say that.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 4, 2007 10:54 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

The fact that Grant can talk about licking a bus station urinal with authority kinda scared me.

This is my signature, not yours.

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 11:03 AM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

If we could somehow get both Encarnacion and Votto from Cincinnati, I would be willing to give up Tim Lincecum. Our IF corners would be set for then next 6-7 years, or at least until Angel V is ready. Would hate to lose Tim, but you have to give up value to get value. I doubt you could get both for less. Maybe just Encarnacion for Lowry would be better, but I would sure like to get our hands on both.

Bruce is a stud and would be a clear upgrade on anything we currently have in the OF, but I'm sure Cincy wouldn't do that trade.

I like Rios a lot. I think a Tim for Rios trade would actually be good for us. Maybe Cainer but I just think Cain is going to be more durable. Rios contract is controlled for 3 more years, I think. His career is definitely still on a upward trajectory over the last 3 years:

HR's: 10, 17, 24.

2B: 23, 33, 43.

OBP: .306, .349, .356

SB%: 61, 71, 81.

All said, I would prefer to get the corner IF's since our need there is greater, but either Bruceo or Rios would still be a good trade.

HR's:

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 4, 2007 11:19 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I wouldn't trade Tim Lincecum for either Edwin Encarnacion and Joey Votto OR Alex Rios. I might trade Matt Cain for Rios, although I would need to do more research.

by sharksrog on Dec 4, 2007 11:24 AM PST up reply actions

Shark

We all know you wouldn't trade Timmy for anybody. That's OK, It would have to be a lot for me to feel good about it. I would much prefer filling at least two holes with whatever we get back from a Tim trade. I agree with the earlier posters who feel 1 for 1 trades don't help us much even if the player we get in return is an upgrade.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 4, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Shark

DrB: this is what BP said about Votto in 2006:

Another marginal prospect who gets more attention than he deserves because he`s among the best of the sorry lot in the Reds organization. Votto has ball-crushing power, but, it`s of the classic long swing/slow bat variety that will get nullified by pitching in the high minors if he can`t adjust. At 22, he`s spent two and a half years in A-ball and needs to make his move in 2006. If you want an ominous sign, he failed to impress the AFL last year.

I really don't know a lot about prospects and pretty much just believe what people tell me but does your opinion on Votto differ substantially from this description? It seems like according to that description an Encarnacion+Votto for Lincecum trade is a bad trade.

That being said, I really like the idea of getting two solid corner IF's in exchange for Timmy. I was 110% against trading Timmy but for two solid corner IF's I would be willing to listen.

by Dutchfury on Dec 4, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions

Votto

Apparently Votto is a hard worker and an intellgent player. Here's what this year's BA said about him just a few days ago, Nov. 21, 2007 when BA ranked Votto as Cincy's #3 prospect behind Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey: " Votto has turned himself into a tough out. He uses the entire field , has natureal poer to both power alleys ad has developed a feel for the strike zone that allows him to lay off pitches off the plate.....He shortened his swing ad closed off some holes."

2007 Stats:

AAA: .294/.381/.478 with 22 HR's, 17 SB's.

MLB: .321/.360/.548 in 84 AB's.

For what it's worth, when I proposed over on minorleagueball.com that Nate Schierholtz is a better prospect than Votto, I nearly got laughed to scorn. I still think Nate's record stacks up well with Votto's, but Votto is thought of very highly in prospect watcher circles.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 4, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Votto

ahh yes new sh** has come to light in 2007. In that case then I agree- offer up Tim for corner IF's and then hope either Bumgarner or Alderson (or both!) turn into super studs. But man. Losing Tim is tough medicine to swallow.

by Dutchfury on Dec 4, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Shark

Votto stepped-up strong in 2006. Southern League (AA) player of year, nearly won triple crown.

by dwc on Dec 5, 2007 6:06 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Shark

Dr., you keep putting words in my mouth at this and at least one other site.

I have never said I wouldn't trade Tim Lincecum. I'm not a guy who believes players should be untouchable.

Very hard to get, yes. But untouchable? No.

by sharksrog on Dec 6, 2007 5:58 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

votto and encarnacion for a lowry sanchez and correia or hennessey package would be perfect. young core of votto, frandsen, encarnacion, davis, lewis plus matty and timmy would at least be fun to watch. pull that trade plus dump roberts, aurilia, durham, kline, and rodriguez for some relief help/end of the rotation starter and sign a fukudome or jenkins and youve got yourself a solid young (and much cheaper) team. the reds trade would obviously be the biggest obstacle, but its not totally ridiculous.
lineup:

davis/winn cf
lewis lf
fukudome/jenkins rf
encarnacion 3b
votto 1b
molina/alfonzo c
frandsen 2b
vizquel ss

bench-ortmeir, schierholtz, winn/davis, molina/alfonzo, some 3b/2b/ss

rotation 1. cain 2. lincecum 3. zito 4/5-misch/correia/warm bodies
pen-hope to get lucky with a couple younger guys and wait and pray for joe nathan to come next year.

by sam23 on Dec 4, 2007 11:58 AM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I'd like that lineup better with Schierholtz in right instead of either Fukudome or Jenkins. It's not like Jenkins is a once-in-a-lifetime acquisition - if Schierholtz should wash out, you can sign someone comparable next year. And Fukudome, like Schierholtz, has yet to prove himself in MLB.

This is my signature, not Goofus's.

by EliminateMe on Dec 4, 2007 12:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Yup, or go with a Roberts/Davis platoon and keep Winn in RF.

I like the idea of a true lead-off hitter and not that anxious to dump Roberts just to dump him.

"Hillary has that nomination sewn up." - rxmeister 11/9/07

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I also meant to add that I'd try like hell to not give up both Correia and Sanchez. This new lineup above makes our SP too shallow for my taste.

"Hillary has that nomination sewn up." - rxmeister 11/9/07

by Goofus on Dec 4, 2007 12:21 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I will join you on the value of a true lead off guy. Especially since the Giants are not likely to suddenly have another Clark/ Bonds / Williams by spring.

The `07 Roberts in centerfield is a bit like watching Bernard out there. Ok so I am exaggerating but as the season moved on it seemed the worse he got. I hope they put him in left as much as possible.

The added benefit is if Winn does well in center ( assuming not traded before opening day) he could be a very attractive mid season addition to a contender in need.

by daveinexile on Dec 4, 2007 2:24 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Actually, it is totally ridiculous. There is no way in hell that the Reds are dumb enough to trade Votto & Encarnacion for that package. Keep dreaming.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Dec 4, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

what would people think if, to complete the reds deal, the giants had to include one of the young outfielders? A) Would you be willing to make a Lowry+Sanchez+Schierholtz/Lewis deal for Encarnacion+Votto and B) would the Reds have any interest in one of those young corner OFs?

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 4, 2007 12:12 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I just dont see the reds trading both Encarnacion AND Votto. The one thing they have is a surplus of outfielders. Maybe Hamilton and Encarnacion. With that said, they wouldnt want any of our outfielders.

I like the idea of a reds trade. They have Dusty now. I am sure Aurilla, Lowry and Kline is just the old guys Dusty craves.

by S49erfan on Dec 4, 2007 12:21 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I don't think the Reds would trade Votto and Encarnacion for Lowry, Sanchez, Correia, AND Hennessey, let alone for one of Correia or Hennessey. I also agree that we'd be more likely to get an OF over Votto. Maybe we could grab Hamilton and Encarnacion, but we would still probably have to give up more. Lowry would give up a lot more homers in Great American Bomb Park than he did last year in SF, increasing his ERA.

by jwirt19 on Dec 4, 2007 12:29 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

ESPN's reporting that the Cardinals are close to dealing Rolen to either us or the Dodgers. Yikes. He's on the hook for over $11 mil. per year through 2010. From what I heard earlier, the Cardinals were asking for a lot for Rolen so I assume we'd be eating the bulk of that plus giving up some prospects. Sounds like an Old Sabean deal to me. Let's hope Colletti outbids us.

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 12:33 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Correction: Should have said: are "looking" to deal: not are "close" to dealing

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 12:35 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

SJ Merc article said Sabes is close to claiming Cainer and Lincey untouchable. That's good news to me. I'm sick of these "our slop for your top prospect" rumors... Mainly because I have almost no faith in Sabean to do the right thing. Its going to take a while for me to trust him again.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Yeah, I think Sabean had to see what teams were willing to put up for one of those guys just to gauge their worth on the market. Frankly, I'm happy to see that teams would have to give us something better than Alex Rios and cash for Lincecum. If a team is willing to top that, Sabean might have to reconsider. With that said, and Grant touched on this earlier, the Giants are in a dilemma in the sense that any offer we put on the table involving Hennessy or Sanchez etc... is going to look worse to other teams because it still will be viewed as only our 3rd or 4th best young pitcher no matter how talented those guys might be. Naturally they will be undervalued compared to Cain/Lincecum.

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I think the bigger problem is that the organization is so devoid of talent that Cain and Tim are the only things if interest to other clubs. It's a problem when the only other thing we have to be excited about is 16 year old Angel Villalona.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 1:30 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I am reasonably excited about the Giants' first six picks among the top 51 overall in the 2007 draft.

by sharksrog on Dec 6, 2007 6:00 PM PST up reply actions

McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 1:37 PM PST reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

A hacker with walk rates perennially in the mid single digits, his power fell off a cliff between 2006 and 2007, ISO dropping from a steady .200 over the past three years to barely .130 last year.

The Giants suck enough that he'd be worth picking up on a non-tender or in a trade for real filler (no more Francisco Lirianos, that is, but a 28-year-old A-ball pitcher is fine).

by wcw on Dec 4, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

He didn't used to be a hacker. His career minor league numbers were .285/.401/.524. I wonder what happened to him and if it can be fixed.

I just hope the Giants wouldn't give anything up for him.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 4, 2007 1:56 PM PST up reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

No idea, but I wouldn't count on it. He hasn't taken a walk since 2004, it seems like.

Perhaps Seabes is floating his name because he has an actual 1B on his radar. Which scares me, since it's an easy position to fill adequately, and he really can be an idiot when it comes to trades.

by wcw on Dec 4, 2007 2:17 PM PST up reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Ben-Broussard.shtml

by mxmob33 on Dec 4, 2007 1:49 PM PST up reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

31 years old. bats/throws left. 1b/OF type. Decent power. Not really an on-base guy, though he had one season of .370 obp in Cleveland.

At best he's an average major leaguer. Maybe the definition of replacement player. At best he would be a part of a right/left platoon at 1st, occasional play in left field and perform pinch hitting duties against righties.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 1:50 PM PST up reply actions

Re: McCoven please tell me about Ben Broussard

Everyone said the important baseball stuff already...Broussard plays guitar and has released a few albums.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Dec 4, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

Thank you

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 2:43 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Also on ESPN, the Giants are interested in either dealing for Ben Broussard or waiting to see if Seattle allows him to become a free agent. I can't imagine this would be our solution to first base. A 31-year old with marginal power and poor OBP. Did somebody say stopgap?

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 1:44 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Some explain Sabean's fascination with finding older variations of players we already have... Give Ort a chance, for the love of God!

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 1:58 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Yahoo Sports says SF may also be interested in Shawn Green and Japanese pitcher Kuroda.

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I wouldn't put too much stock in the Kuroda rumor. Sabean knows we don't need pitching (especially not when it comes at $10 mil a year) and, from what I've read, the Mariners are far and away the frontrunner to land him.

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions

Shawn Green?

Umm...what?

Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Dec 4, 2007 2:16 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

*vomits*

MLBTR is now saying the Giants are in the mix for Kuroda (31 y/o who has never thrown an MLB pitch) who wants 5yrs/50mil. Say it ain't so, Brian...

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Sounds like his agent is just throwing some random teams out there to create more interest.

by mxmob33 on Dec 4, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions

Or........

SF is contemplating trading a pitcher and wants a replacement for the rotation.

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 2:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Buying expensive pitching strikes me as the last thing the Giants would possibly do.

Which is exactly what I thought before they signed Zito.

We're doomed.

by wcw on Dec 4, 2007 2:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Living in SW Ohio allows me to absorb a lot of info on the Reds; I watch or listen to all Cincinnati's games when the Giants aren't available in my area. Hal McCoy reported today that the Reds are focusing on Lincecum or Lowry, with an eye on unloading one of their many surplus outfielders-Hamilton was specifically named as trade bait for a decent starting pitcher, which is now the Reds' top priority after obtaining Cordero to shore up their stinking bullpen. I don't like Encarnacion, even though he has displayed flashes of good play, He's moody, and often showed a pathetic lack of hustle, which seems odd for a young player fighting for a fulltime job. The Giants don't need such a headcase! Hatteberg, on the other hand, is a real pro who plays hard and hits consistently well. He actually exhibited as much "leadership" on the Reds as any other player (including Griffey). Hamilton missed a lot of games last season-some for suspicious ailments that some believed may have been exagerrated to conceal some ongoing issues with his battle to overcome his drug and alcohol problems. I'd also be surprised if Jay Bruce is dealt anywhere...he and Votto have been cast as future stars in the Reds' lineup.

by Backstop14 on Dec 4, 2007 2:17 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

The more I think about it the more it seems like the Reds and Giants are about as perfect trading partners as could be found. We're both non-contendors with gaping holes that just happen to surpluses within the opposing franchise.
It's just a matter of how large a trade to pull off. Lowry and a decent throw-in would likely net us two serviceable position players albeit with questionmarks (i.e. Hamilton and Encarnacion, although not in the same deal).
It would be nice to think that an offer of Lincecum and another lower-end pitcher could pilfer the Reds of three solid young position players. Bruce is probably untouchable but I have a hard time believing Votto is more untouchable than Lincecum. So could Lincecum +1 get us Votto, Encarnacion +1? If so, I think Sabean would have to look at pulling the trigger.

by saveuszito on Dec 4, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

This post reminded me. Someone called on KNBR yesterday saying they know someone in the Giants org who said the Giants are looking at Griffey in a possible trade...

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 2:46 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

The callers into KNBR are most time idiots, that don't know anything about baseball and this organization that we love. They usually cause me to want to pull out my hair with their stupid comments and trade scenarios.

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Dec 4, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

Yeah I don't want Hamilton in SF. Way to much problems with that guy, besides he'll be 27 next season. We already have 27 year old outfielders on our team, no thanks.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 3:11 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

i woulndnt make a deal with the reds unless you get votto or bruce. even hamilton and encarnacion for lowry (which the reds arent likely to do either) isnt what the giants need. how about including ortmeir in a deal with lowry to land votto and hamilton/encarnacion? i dont mind keeping roberts around as a left fielder, but his d and his arm are deteriorating quickly, and roberts in left with lewis, schierholtz, raj davis, and winn is a and aboslutely TERRIBLE offensive outfield. what other team gets that little run production from their outfield? couple that with the fact that the giants dont have a slugger at first or third and i dont see how roberts in left makes any sense. rather see winn and raj davis hitting leadoff. what did roberts give us that raj didnt last year? and who really wants to see a 38 year old scott hatteberg at first next year? not me

by sam23 on Dec 4, 2007 2:42 PM PST reply actions

Cabrera to White Sox?

Ozzie is smiling if he can pull this off. Josh Fields, Gio Gonzalez, John Danks, and Gavin Floyd could all be involved.

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 3:06 PM PST reply actions

Or Tigers?

Tigers are nearing a blockbuster eight-player deal to get Cabrera and Willis for Maybin, Miller, and four others. In the same breath Molony adds that the White Sox are after Andruw Jones.

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 3:10 PM PST up reply actions

Tigers deal for Cabrera is done

Cabrera and Willis for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Mike Rabelo and three minor league prospects

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 3:34 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Tigers deal for Cabrera is done

Apparently Detroit gave up their #1, 7, and 11 organizational prospects in addition to the above mentioned players. Ouch...

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 4:23 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Or Tigers?

Peter Gammons reporting the Tigers pulled Dontrelle and Cabrera...

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

wow tigers lineup is SCARY if they pull this off. pretty sure all nine of their guys regulars would hit 3-4-or-5 for the giants.

by sam23 on Dec 4, 2007 3:43 PM PST reply actions

What happened?

The meetings were going just fine with rumors flying everywhere then Cabrera trade and the merry go round came to a screeching halt. Someone please fire up the winter meetings and get the trade rumors flowing again.

by wilriv21 on Dec 4, 2007 6:10 PM PST reply actions

Re: The Rumors...

I think everyone is still in shock. That's one heck of a blockbuster deal. Dombrowski really came out of nowhere, too. It was all about the LA teams, then he just swooped in a grabbed not only Cabrera, but Willis, too. I don't know much about Maybin and company, but apparently the Tigers gave up a ton in return. Still, nice package they picked up, which should definitely improve their club in 08 and beyond, provided they can lock these two down long term.

by jwirt19 on Dec 4, 2007 6:22 PM PST reply actions

D-Backs interested in Noah Lowry?

Apparently.

Additionally, Magruder adds that the D'Backs have a touch of interest in Noah Lowry.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/103407

I suppose that could happen if the talks involving Dan Haren fall through. Apparently, Beane is waiting for the Santana deal to happen to gauge the market for Haren, who he thinks is worth more than Santana (because he's cheaper).

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 4, 2007 10:14 PM PST reply actions

Re: D-Backs interested in Noah Lowry?

Yeah I just read that one too. I'm thinking that the Giants would be smart to wait for Santana and Haren to be traded before dealing Lowry.

by Cainer on Dec 4, 2007 10:19 PM PST up reply actions

Re: D-Backs interested in Noah Lowry?

I like this because the D-Backs definitely have young talent in surplus.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 4, 2007 10:35 PM PST up reply actions

Holy Smokes!

This just in from MLBTR:

_______________

Just got an incredible rumor from a trusted New York sportswriter. Stay with me, because this one's crazy. But rest assured that if the source wasn't good, I wouldn't post it.

Minnesota has initiated talks for a three-way blockbuster with the Twins and A's. Here's how it would go down:

Mets send Jose Reyes, Kevin Mulvey, and Hector Pellot to A's
A's send Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson to Mets
A's send Dan Haren to Twins
Twins send Johan Santana to Mets

Mets get Johan Santana, Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson
A's get Jose Reyes and Kevin Mulvey
Twins get Dan Haren and Hector Pellot

The source says Haren is exactly the type of player the Twins want for Santana, a cheap frontline starter. It's known the Mets would hate to deal Reyes but they would get some value beyond Santana. Billy Beane is happy because he gets Reyes for one more year than he had Haren plus longtime favorite Mulvey.
______________

Whoa!

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 5, 2007 1:42 PM PST reply actions