Historical Tendencies...
I just read a very good ESPN.com column by J.A. Adande. Basically, he lays to rest any claims that the Celtics are a black un-friendly franchise. This got me thinking...
First, are there teams out there that are still hung-up on these kinds of things? One thing I have always loved about my Giants is that they are very interracial and always have been (you know... since they let black people play). Can there still be pro sports teams out there that hire players based on their ethnic background? Probably the Mets... Maybe the Padres... Red Sox?
Secondly, why is it that certain teams never change? Think of the Yankees. They basically always acquire the best talent and spend gobs of money. The Bears = Run-Defense. The Steelers = Run up the middle + Run-stop Defense. The Cubs = Lose as much as possible. Celtics = Win a lot
What is your opinion?
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37 comments
Comments
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by nick on Dec 19, 2007 3:21 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Racism and Economics
On the other hand, basketball is an ideal urban sport. You don't need anything but yourself, a hoop and a ball to play. Even more, to compete You only need one more person. It can easily be played in small, confined areas.
Considering the above, I think it is no surprise that basketball's popularity among urban youth has thrived while baseball's popularity has wilted. Now consider that urban populations have a higher concentration of african-americans (of course this is due to historical racism and inequality) we can see how this effects baseball's popularity with black youth.
I just don't think it is a case of american minorities rejecting baseball (or being rejected by baseball) on the basis of any racial judgment.
by thatdog on Dec 19, 2007 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 3:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 4:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh ... "implies" they're racist.
by giantnitpick on Dec 19, 2007 7:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So Karl Malone left
Before integration, there were no African Americans in MLB. The fact that the Red Sox did not have any African Americans on their roster implies that they were not racist, since they were consistent with the league average.
Also, the Jazz do not only have 2 black players. 7 out of the 14 guys on their roster are African American.
by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 10:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
Pursuant to your "logic" that few of any race of players means that franchise is racist, then all of these franchises must be racist against white players because there are so few of them.
And are you correctly applying the "one-drop rule" to Carlos Boozer?
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
The Celtics starting unit was 3/5 white back in the '80s and my guess of the favorite players in the white community, in order, was probably: Bird, McHale, Ainge, ...and then the others. I think the racial bias of the community unfairly became associated with the team. As much as I hate the Celtics, and I would love to be able to call them racists, I have to admit that that team was one of the greatest of all time and I can't believe that it was constructed with any racial bias. Parrish was one of the most under-rated centers and was probably the key to their champioships.
As to the second part, I don't think there is one answer for all the different teams. For example, the Yankers spend gobs of money because they have it to spend and always have. They have always made more money than most teams. They make more in their cable deal alone than the bottom 3 teams make combined. They have always spent money, but it is only since Steinbrenner that they have spent it obscenely. Can anyone remember the Yankee ownership before Steinbrenner? Yes, I know it was CBS, but does anyone remember anything about how they conducted business? It is a good thing that Steinbrenner puts all the profits from the team back in, but it's a huge negative that he also supplements the budget with money from his other businesses, primarily his ship-building business. I am not sure if Hank and Hal will be like George, but if they are don't expect the Yankers to change for many years to come.
by marklar on Dec 19, 2007 3:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 4:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by thatdog on Dec 19, 2007 4:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
Or 10, but don't imagine I'm not saying that with a huge scowl on my face.
by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 10:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by slojoe on Dec 20, 2007 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by nick on Dec 19, 2007 5:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
One of the problems is with Yankee fans (and others) insisting that Steinbrenner is a great owner when their reasoning is because he followed a terrible one. He maybe a great owner in the eyes of Yankee fans, but I believe he has done great harm to baseball in his attempts to buy championships.
by marklar on Dec 19, 2007 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So, an owner
As opposed to those saints and champions of baseball, Jeffrey Loria, Carl Pohlad, Lew Wolff, the Nuttings?
by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 11:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: So, an owner
If Steinbrenner was more interested in first doing the league no harm than he was in benefitting his team, he wouldn't run a team with a $200 million+ payroll.
It's a little more complicated than that. He's an owner in a flawed system, taking advantage of that system, but he's still never shown the discretion to keep from doing something bad for the league if it meant that it would honestly hurt his chances of winning.
Anyway, I'm oversimplifying, and I'm sure there's five sides to this I haven't even seen, much less sniffed, but I think it's fair to say that Steinbrenner - however much good he's done - has done his share of harm regarding the current state of major league baseball.
by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 11:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Steinbrenner
by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 7:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And Loria, Wolff
They aren't hurting baseball when they pocket every penny and extort and rape the local populaces of their host cities?
But, boo hoo hoo, they're so poor.
by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what I said
by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't as simple
I've seen and heard a lot criticism of the Red Sox for spending money the way they do. The Yankees gave the Red Sox an option; continue to lose or spend the big bucks. Do the Rays or Orioles have any chance in the AL east? What has happened in the AL east is what will happen in all of baseball if Steinbrenner's "vision" is fulfilled.
Yes. I would definitely say he has done great harm to the game.
by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yet,
Steinbrenner's vision is to turn the Yankees into a national and international brand.
Jeffrey Loria's vision is to be a welfare queen and extort a stadium out of the citizens of Miami.
Carl Pohlad's vision is to be a welfare queen and he has already successfully extorted a stadium out the taxpayers of his host city.
Lew Wolff and John Fisher have a vision of using their stadium to get a sweetheart land deal from their host city all the collecting revenue sharing checks while trading away their best players or letting them walk.
Yes, I would definitely say that compared to them, Steinbrenner has done great good to the game.
by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Yet,
The value of the Yankees, and turning them into an international brand has nothing to do with how Steinbrenner's is hurting the game. If he was doing these things without the collateral damage to MLB I would have no problem it. But he is doing these things selfishly at the expense of the other teams and baseball in general.
Additionally, I never mentioned any other owners by name, nor did I say that all the other owners are good. Are there other bad owners? Of course there are. Are the hurting baseball? Yes, probably so, but more a micro way than the macro devastation wrought by Steinbrenner. The problem with justifying what Steinbrenner is doing to baseball on the actions of a few other bad owners is obvious.
by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
And how does the value of the Yankees and their becoming an international brand have nothing to do with the game? You are aware that revenues from MLBAM is shared by all the teams yes? If a Yankees fans in Taipeh subscribes to MLB.tv because he / she wants to watch the Yankees, the cheapskate welfare queens in Florida, Oakland and Minnesota get an equal share of that subscription fee. If someone buys a Yankees cap in London, the cheapskates in Florida, Oakland and Minnesota get an equal share of the money, even though they have done nothing to earn it.
by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees
The ship building business went kaput, along with the rest of the American ship building industry, quite a while back.
The Yankees have spent lots of money because Steinbrenner has had a long term vision of the Yankees. Steinbrenner's investment is long term. He didn't buy the Yankees to try to force the host city to build him a stadium, he didn't buy the Yankees to get a sweetheart deal from the host city on the surrounding land: Lew Wolff and John Fisher, he didn't buy the Yankees to sell them 5 years later.
by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
what a load of crap...i used to root against the Celtics in the 1980's only because they had too many damn white guys, and im white!!
(rooted for Holmes vs. Cooney for the same reason)
by slojoe on Dec 19, 2007 7:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by joebirdie3 on Dec 19, 2007 11:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
The Washington Redskins had a similar history. The owner, George Preston Marshall, was a racist and they were the last NFL team to have a black player.
by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
Josh grew up in Santa Monica, but his paternal grandfather and grandmother lived the last 40+ years of their lives in San Francisco.
by sharksrog on Dec 20, 2007 12:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
why this discussion is stupid
Under the same methodology, Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash aren't white because they aren't from the US, so please don't count any non-Americans in the count of NBA white players.
The whole issue of not enough blacks in MLB is made an issue by racialist demagogues trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations.
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who are these
Would you kindly name some of them?
Would you way Bud Selig is a "racialist demagogue trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations."? He has expressed concern at the declining ratio of African Americans in MLB.
Would you say that Delino DeShields, Marquies Grissom are "racialist demagogues trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations."
They founded a team consisting of former players that tour and attempt to promote interest among black kids in baseball.
Or maybe their goal is to "extort" money from those black kids and their parents.
by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by Goofus on Dec 20, 2007 2:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by howtheyscored on Dec 20, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Historical Tendencies...
by Goofus on Dec 20, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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