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Historical Tendencies...

I just read a very good ESPN.com column by J.A. Adande.  Basically, he lays to rest any claims that the Celtics are a black un-friendly franchise.  This got me thinking...

First, are there teams out there that are still hung-up on these kinds of things?  One thing I have always loved about my Giants is that they are very interracial and always have been (you know... since they let black people play).  Can there still be pro sports teams out there that hire players based on their ethnic background?  Probably the Mets...  Maybe the Padres...  Red Sox?

Secondly, why is it that certain teams never change?  Think of the Yankees.  They basically always acquire the best talent and spend gobs of money.  The Bears = Run-Defense.  The Steelers = Run up the middle + Run-stop Defense.  The Cubs = Lose as much as possible.  Celtics = Win a lot

What is your opinion?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Historical Tendencies...
Racial discrimination in recruiting athletes has been dead ever since owners realized it was hurting their profit margins.  Better talent = more wins = more money. Discrimination in the hiring of managers/head coaches took longer to do away with and isn't dead entirely, but it's much better today.  Dusty was a big part of that, both in managing the Giants and in leaving the Dodgers after Al Campanis made an ass of himself on national TV.  Right now the biggest racial problem is baseball's unpopularity among black kids, resulting in the lowest proportion of black MLB players since the beginning of integration.  There's also the positional question in both baseball and football, in the dearth of black pitchers and, more infamously, quarterbacks.
you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Dec 19, 2007 3:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Racism and Economics
The popularity of baseball amongst black youth I would guess is not so much an issue of race but economics (and race). Baseball suffers from urban economics. It requires space, equipment, a team, organization. The continued cutting of youth and high school sports programs in many cities only hurts organized sports like baseball even more. The opportunity for urban youth to be involved in baseball becomes very limited.

On the other hand, basketball is an ideal urban sport. You don't need anything but yourself, a hoop and a ball to play. Even more, to compete You only need one more person. It can easily be played in small, confined areas.

Considering the above, I think it is no surprise that basketball's popularity among urban youth has thrived while baseball's popularity has wilted. Now consider that urban populations have a higher concentration of african-americans (of course this is due to historical racism and inequality) we can  see how this effects baseball's popularity with black youth.

I just don't think it is a case of american minorities rejecting baseball (or being rejected by baseball) on the basis of any racial judgment.

-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on Dec 19, 2007 4:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
The Utah Jazz.  Or maybe it's just because all of the people that live there hate black people so no black players want to play there...

by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 3:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Probably not a bad guess...  Their best player in franchise history was a brutha'... and their two best players now are brutha's...  But I know what you're saying.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Their best player was drafted by them so he didn't have a choice but to sign with them.  Carlos Boozer's hispanic.  But when the Warriors went there in the playoffs last year, they had issues wit the fans throwing crap from the stands and calling them a bunch of n[a]ggers.  And also, every team in the NBA these days is almost entirely black. White people, Asians, etc. are a total minority.  The fact that they only have 2 black players infers they're racist.

by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 4:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh ... "implies" they're racist.
(Sorry for the pointless correction, but Nero Wolfe once burned a dictionary over this one.)
Ever hopeful for all our rising stars, like Tim and Cain ... and David B. Flemming!

by giantnitpick on Dec 19, 2007 7:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So Karl Malone left
after his initial rookie contract expired then? And played the rest of his career somewhere else.

Before integration, there were no African Americans in MLB. The fact that the Red Sox did not have any African Americans on their roster implies that they were not racist, since they were consistent with the  league average.

Also, the Jazz do not only have 2 black players. 7 out of the 14 guys on their roster are African American.

by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 10:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
every team in the NBA these days is almost entirely black.

Pursuant to your "logic" that few of any race of players means that franchise is racist, then all of these franchises must be racist against white players because there are so few of them.

And are you correctly applying the "one-drop rule" to Carlos Boozer?

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
It's a shame there can't be legitimate discussions on these issues without any "they ALL hate X people" ad hominem insults. It really doesn't add anything to the discussion and it's just plain wrong.
Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I don't believe that today there is any sports franchise stupid enough to not realize that accummulating talent is hard enough without adding additional requirements of having a certain ethnic background. A lot of what was perceived of the racial bias of the Boston teams is really the bias of the community. I know that Ellis Burks was very unhappy playing for the Red Sox early in his career, the perceived reason was the lack of fellow black players on the roster. But I believe that it wasn't only the make up of the roster but the racial antipathy that any black person feels in Boston. It is interesting that in spite of Burks' unhappiness that he returned to the Red Sox. Maybe they were the only ones who wanted him; it was the end of his career, but their roster is very much more diverse these days than when he was a rookie.

The Celtics starting unit was 3/5 white back in the '80s and my guess of the favorite players in the white community, in order, was probably: Bird, McHale, Ainge, ...and then the others. I think the racial bias of the community unfairly became associated with the team. As much as I hate the Celtics, and I would love to be able to call them racists, I have to admit that that team was one of the greatest of all time and I can't believe that it was constructed with any racial bias. Parrish was one of the most under-rated centers and was probably the key to their champioships.

As to the second part, I don't think there is one answer for all the different teams. For example, the Yankers spend gobs of money because they have it to spend and always have. They have always made more money than most teams. They make more in their cable deal alone than the bottom 3 teams make combined. They have always spent money, but it is only since Steinbrenner that they have spent it obscenely. Can anyone remember the Yankee ownership before Steinbrenner? Yes, I know it was CBS, but does anyone remember anything about how they conducted business? It is a good thing that Steinbrenner puts all the profits from the team back in, but it's a huge negative that he also supplements the budget with money from his other businesses, primarily his ship-building business. I am not sure if Hank and Hal will be like George, but if they are don't expect the Yankers to change for many years to come.

by marklar on Dec 19, 2007 3:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Now that I think about it, running and defense are pretty good ways to go about business when it's like 12 degrees below zero with the wind-chill.  Maybe weather is why the Steelers and Bears haven't changed in 80 years.
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 4:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I thought about that too, but NE and Buffalo seem to buck that notion.
-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on Dec 19, 2007 4:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Oh yea...  And Green Bay.  Don't forget about one of the greatest quarterbacks ever!
Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I hate the fact that it's gotten to the point that it's almost impossible to argue that Brett Favre isn't one of the 15 greatest QBs of all time.

Or 10, but don't imagine I'm not saying that with a huge scowl on my face.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 10:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
overrated...thanks to all the sniffers in the media...

by slojoe on Dec 20, 2007 8:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I don't know how CBS ran the business side of the team, but on-field it was the darkest period in Yankee history.  Maybe the only dark one.
you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Dec 19, 2007 5:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
My point was, that for the most part, our collective memories are of the Steinbrenner era. Steinbrenner himself created some dark times for the Yankees with his muddling until he learned to back off a little and let the baseball people do their work.

One of the problems is with Yankee fans (and others) insisting that Steinbrenner is a great owner when their reasoning is because he followed a terrible one. He maybe a great owner in the eyes of Yankee fans, but I believe he has done great harm to baseball in his attempts to buy championships.

by marklar on Dec 19, 2007 6:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, an owner
who wants to win, and who actually invests in his team, has done great harm to baseball? An owner who actually puts back some of the profits he earns from the fans into the team, instead of pocketing it all, has done great harm to baseball?

As opposed to those saints and champions of baseball, Jeffrey Loria, Carl Pohlad, Lew Wolff, the Nuttings?

by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 11:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: So, an owner
For Steinbrenner, the Yankees have always come before the league. That's apparent just from looking at the biggest problem that the league has: the payroll gap.

If Steinbrenner was more interested in first doing the league no harm than he was in benefitting his team, he wouldn't run a team with a $200 million+ payroll.

It's a little more complicated than that. He's an owner in a flawed system, taking advantage of that system, but he's still never shown the discretion to keep from doing something bad for the league if it meant that it would honestly hurt his chances of winning.

Anyway, I'm oversimplifying, and I'm sure there's five sides to this I haven't even seen, much less sniffed, but I think it's fair to say that Steinbrenner - however much good he's done - has done his share of harm regarding the current state of major league baseball.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 11:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Steinbrenner
Once again, Garrett, you've hit the nail on the head. Steinbrenner exploits an unfair system, and makes no effort to improve that system. OK, he has a passion and dedication to winning. How about some dedication to preserving the game we love? That was the reason for allowing the anti-trust exemption -- these really weren't separate businesses run by separate owners, they were all part of one big business. And yet owners like Steinbrenner are allowed to behave selfishly, to the detriment of baseball overall.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And Loria, Wolff
Fisher, Pohlad, the Nuttings are not behaving selfishly?

They aren't hurting baseball when they pocket every penny and extort and rape the local populaces of their host cities?

But, boo hoo hoo, they're so poor.

by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not what I said
Nor implied. That's a completely different problem. But I agree it's a problem. All the more reason for a real commissioner.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't as simple
as an owner that wants to win and invests in his team. That description could probably apply to the majority of sports team owners. Your statement is incorrect that he puts "some of the profits" back into the team. What separates Steinbrenner is that ne is willing to put money from his personal fortune into the team just to win. When criticized for this his response was that there were 4 or 5 other owners in baseball with greater wealth than his, and why weren't they doing the same thing thing. So Steinbrenner's "vision" for baseball is to have the few wealthiest owners competing financially for all the available talent.

I've seen and heard a lot criticism of the Red Sox for spending money the way they do. The Yankees gave the Red Sox an option; continue to lose or spend the big bucks. Do the Rays or Orioles have any chance in the AL east? What has happened in the AL east is what will happen in all of baseball if Steinbrenner's "vision" is fulfilled.

Yes. I would definitely say he has done great harm to the game.

by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yet,
the value of the Yankees enterprise continues to go through the roof. So, yeah, the Steinbrenners are going broke pouring their personal wealth into the Yankees.

Steinbrenner's vision is to turn the Yankees into a national and international brand.

Jeffrey Loria's vision is to be a welfare queen and extort a stadium out of the citizens of Miami.

Carl Pohlad's vision is to be a welfare queen and he has already successfully extorted a stadium out the taxpayers of his host city.

Lew Wolff and John Fisher have a vision of using their stadium to get a sweetheart land deal from their host city all the collecting revenue sharing checks while trading away their best players or letting them walk.

Yes, I would definitely say that compared to them, Steinbrenner has done great good to the game.

by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Yet,
Your conclusion to the things you have listed is a non-sequitor.

The value of the Yankees, and turning them into an international brand has nothing to do with how Steinbrenner's is hurting the game. If he was doing these things without the collateral damage to MLB I would have no problem it. But he is doing these things selfishly at the expense of the other teams and baseball in general.

Additionally, I never mentioned any other owners by name, nor did I say that all the other owners are good. Are there other bad owners? Of course there are. Are the hurting baseball? Yes, probably so, but more a micro way than the macro devastation wrought by Steinbrenner. The problem with justifying what Steinbrenner is doing to baseball on the actions of a few other bad owners is obvious.

by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,
pissing off your fanbases, reducing attendance to a pittance hurts less than attracting more and more fans to support your team. Yup, they only PROBABLY hurt, and ONLY in a micro way.

And how does the value of the Yankees and their becoming an international brand have nothing to do with the game? You are aware that revenues from MLBAM is shared by all the teams yes? If a Yankees fans in Taipeh subscribes to MLB.tv because he / she wants to watch the Yankees, the cheapskate welfare queens in Florida, Oakland and Minnesota get an equal share of that subscription fee. If someone buys a Yankees cap in London, the cheapskates in Florida, Oakland and Minnesota get an equal share of the money, even though they have done nothing to earn it.

by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Yankees
are the Steinbrenners' business nowadays. That's why the little Steins are getting involved.

The ship building business went kaput, along with the rest of the American ship building industry, quite a while back.

The Yankees have spent lots of money because Steinbrenner has had a long term vision of the Yankees. Steinbrenner's investment is long term. He didn't buy the Yankees to try to force the host city to build him a stadium, he didn't buy the Yankees to get a sweetheart deal from the host city on the surrounding land: Lew Wolff and John Fisher, he didn't buy the Yankees to sell them 5 years later.

by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 11:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
"J.A. Adande  basically lays to rest any claims that the Celtics are a black un-friendly franchise."???

what a load of crap...i used to root against the Celtics in the 1980's only because they had too many damn white guys, and im white!!

(rooted for Holmes vs. Cooney for the same reason)

by slojoe on Dec 19, 2007 7:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Didnt HBO have a special on the Red Sox and how racially discriminatory they have been in their history? I seem to remember that they were the last team to have a black player on their roster. Someone help me out with specifics if you can. Thanks

by joebirdie3 on Dec 19, 2007 11:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Yes, you are correct about the Red Sox. The Yawkey's were apparently racist and it was reflected in the composition of the team. Under new ownership with an understanding of how a racist approach hurts the competitive nature of the team, these days they are as diverse as any.

The Washington Redskins had a similar history. The owner, George Preston Marshall, was a racist and they were the last NFL team to have a black player.

by marklar on Dec 20, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
It should probably be noted that the first professional sporting event Josh Adande attended was a Giants game at Candlestick.

Josh grew up in Santa Monica, but his paternal grandfather and grandmother lived the last 40+ years of their lives in San Francisco.

by sharksrog on Dec 20, 2007 12:52 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I was hoping you'd mention this, Roger.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

why this discussion is stupid
There are hundreds of black players in MLB, but because they don't come from the US, they aren't considered black, which is stupid, and racist.

Under the same methodology, Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash aren't white because they aren't from the US, so please don't count any non-Americans in the count of NBA white players.

The whole issue of not enough blacks in MLB is made an issue by racialist demagogues trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 11:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Who are these
"racialist demagogues trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations."?

Would you kindly name some of them?

Would you way Bud Selig is a "racialist demagogue trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations."?  He has expressed concern at the declining ratio of African Americans in MLB.

Would you say that Delino DeShields, Marquies Grissom are "racialist demagogues trying to extort money out of rich and white franchise owners/corporations."

They founded a team consisting of former players that tour and attempt to promote interest among black kids in baseball.

Or maybe their goal is to "extort" money from those black kids and their parents.

by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 11:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
I don't find the inter-racial positions of professional sports teams nearly as interesting the inter-racial positions of Mrs. Goofus and me.
McCovey Chronicles was better when mine was the lowest IQ on the board.

by Goofus on Dec 20, 2007 2:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Why do I get the feeling this isn't the first time you've said this?
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 20, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Historical Tendencies...
Nope.  Contrary to what you might think, I do actually think up new amusing stuff from time to time.
McCovey Chronicles was better when mine was the lowest IQ on the board.

by Goofus on Dec 20, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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