Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 2:36 PM PST
125 comments
The following comment comment is lifted from the Tony Clark diary:
Re: Seriously, why all the hatin' on Tony Clark?
He's thirty F*ing five years old...that's why all the hatin'. One more season of Sabean's LIES! about going with youth. One more season of patching a team together with people that will be out of baseball in '10. One more season of not finding someone under thirty to man one GODDAMN position on this team. Clark might help the Giants go 72-90 instead of 70-92. F*ing typical Sabean.
While, perhaps, overstating the position of the 'Fringe,' it still seems to typify the Fringe response to anything and everything Sabean does. This response is not only tired, but it is inaccurate and, George Bush-like, ignores all the inconvenient facts and trots out as truth the same tired assumptions and conclusions. So, some facts are in order:
1) The team has cut ties with at least 5 older players in less than a year: Feliz (33), Klesko (37), Benitez (34), Bonds (dirt), Atchison (32)
2) Less precise (because of 25 man vs 40 man issues), the team has added several young players within the last year: Frandsen (27), Rowand (30), Davis (27), Ort (27), Lewis (27), Schierholtz (24).
3) Neither Sabean nor Magowan have ever said the team was going to get "young." They have said they are going to get younger and healthier. On its face, looking at no's 1 & 2 above, that statement is happening. We have a young pitching staff, 2b (or is it 3b) in Frandsen, 1b in Ort, and backups in the OF who have a chance to play themselves into the lineup.
I don't think anyone can complain about our OF. We have two 27 year old starting IFs.
Is it fair to be disappointed in the lack of movenent/improvement at 1b and 3b? Of course. But, while Sabean gets routinely raked, the suggestions offered on here are comical in the breadth and depth of how unrealistic they are. Sure there are certain players some Fringites would like. But where is the indication that any of these players are actually available? And, more importantly, available at the prices you all are proposing? [ie, why in the hell would Cinci give us Encarnacion for Lowry? How is that a good trade for them? Where is there any indication that Cinci is looking to trade this lazy, stone handed, bad attitude?]
Anyway, there are definitely numerous improvements that have been made to the team, just in the past year. Once, of course, is assembling a very young and very good SP staff. Second is the development of several current RP staff pitchers and RPs in the system on the verge of being able to help. Three, is that the team has, while not on a straight, unvariable line, gotten younger and healthier - and amny other contracts are about to run out.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Because the Reds could plug in Ryan Freel at third, leaving an outfield of Dunn/Hamilton/Griffey. When one of those outfielders is injured, they can put Freel back in the OF and put Jeff Keppinger at third. Their GM has repeatedly said that they are looking to trade for starting pitching, and the team has one or two extra players between 3B and OF. It would make sense that they would trade the player that they've been down on.
It all depends on how much they like Lowry. They might not like Lowry at all, which makes this all a moot point. But they have six players for four lineup spots and a 21-year-old who struggled in his first MLB action as their tentative fourth starter, so it isn't like the people who are suggesting a possible trade are on angel dust.
by Grant on Dec 19, 2007 2:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
And, with the scarcity of MLB 3b, I would think either of those guys would be much more expensive than what the (internet sites) proposed trades offer.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Keppinger's probably more valuable to the Reds than he would be to another team in trade; he's like a mix between Kevin Frandsen and Brian Horwitz, which is really intriguing if you have him, but not so much if you're trying to trade for him.
And Encarnacion's name has been one that's been tossed out often this winter.
by Grant on Dec 19, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Personally, I think Encar is a big risk because of his attitude and defense. And I've not seen Keppinger play, have only read his stats.
I think the assessment that Sabean is reluctant to trade for very young and very unproven players is accurate. I think this is because of his Yankee background. I also think baseball is really changing and the Yankee way is becoming outmoded, so that even the Yankees have to change. But Sabean has changed. But he is never going to follow the Marlins model of tossing AA and AAA players out on a MLB diamond.
But I do not think he will never take a chance on a young player: He did with the M Williams trade, with Davis, with Cappellan, with Lincecum, even with Sanchez.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
why do you care about his underrated defense and attitude?
we had the two biggest assholes on our team for years and did pretty freaking well with them. Attitude doesn't mean crap to me. If you're good, you're good. If not THBBPPTT, Shove on!
we really really really really really need a credible third baseman. Encarnacion is cheap, controllable and pretty good and getting better.
Now how is that a risk?
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 19, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by kennv on Dec 19, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 19, 2007 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by jponry on Dec 19, 2007 7:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
in terms of facial hair, he's always last in my book.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 19, 2007 7:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by Woody Wins on Dec 19, 2007 8:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
It's a similar situation to what we're going through with Lowry, except we've actually heard what was offered in one case (Milledge). We know that they could be moved for the right deal, and we know what the Reds and Giants are looking for. That's why it seems like a natural fit.
by Grant on Dec 19, 2007 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Actually, my true feeling is that anyone who has a definite, unshakable position is completely off base. That is because they are (none of us are) not privy to any of the scouting reports or other inise information. And they are not priviy to the position/strategy of the Reds.
I think the more reasonable position is, if Sabean trades for Encar, fine, let's hope he's the answer. But, it not, also fine, he didn't over pay, we still have Lowry, Frandsen is not the worst option at 3b.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. The team cut ties with Feliz (bad), Klesko (over), Benitez (bad), Bonds (over), Atchison (bad).
Only 1 (Rowand) of the players you listed as "adds" has any real major league track record. And he's 30, which is only 2 years away from "old" (Atchison).
And sure there's some unrealistic trade ideas thrown around here but the same is true on any fan site / message board.
I don't think Giants fans being opposed to Tony Clark (or players like him) is all that surprising or unjustified. And if, as you suggested, Frandsen starts at 3B (???) and Ort at 1B, we will set a new low offensively that'll make last season look like it was 1993.
by fwoty oz on Dec 19, 2007 2:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by kennv on Dec 19, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by fwoty oz on Dec 19, 2007 6:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
The problem as I see it is that he doesn't have seem to have much of a plan. What can you say about a GM whose signature move is to sign a new free-agent center fielder every year?
by Evan on Dec 19, 2007 2:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by ResDog on Dec 19, 2007 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
It seems to me that around the league there are many OFs. While I didn't think the Rowand acquisition was necessary, I don't see how it can be criticized. The guy is a good player, young, not everly expensive. And, it is not as if Sabean is saying "we're done." He's actively looking for 3b and 1b. But improving the team by signing Rowand really is not a mistake. Lots of teams have holes in the IF - and the type of player needed, particularly when you keep in mind that Sabean is going to want good defense, is just hard to find.
I don't necessarily disagree that he might be overly conservative regarding playing young, unproven players. But, on the other hand, he has given a number of young unproven players a chance. Wehn they fail, there isn't much of a back up position (example: Nirkro failed in 06 and we're froced to do something, which results in Hillenbrand). I think Sabean's approach is to have a 'proven' veteran and let the young player play his way into the lineup - a la Aurilia (1st time around), Frandsen. Then, at least, he has a backup plan.
I agree he has much more flexibility this year, as, at 3b, for example, he has Aurilia and Frandsen as backups if a Kettinger is Niekro redux. I'm just not convinced those players are available at a cost we can afford. And if he is holding off, I think many of our trading chips will be worth much more come July or next Winter.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I don't even have a big problem with the Rowand signing, really. He's pretty good, and maybe he'll somehow manage to avoid injury and stay good.
But the Rowand signing points out one of the comical things about Sabean, something that should be profoundly alarming to Sabean himself: He makes the same move every single year. Reggie Sanders, Marquis Grissom, Michael Tucker, Randy Winn, Dave Roberts, Aaron Rowand -- some of them are better than others, but they're all incarnations of the same basic player: not bad, but never great, and now at the age at which they get hurt and the skills decline. Every year it's another one. He keeps making short-terms patches hoping that they'll turn into long-term solutions, but somehow we need the exact same patch a year later. And the contracts get longer and longer.
After a while, wouldn't you try a different approach?
by Evan on Dec 19, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
BATTING AVERAGE IS TEH NUTZ!!!
by zenbitz on Dec 19, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Like so many have pointed out, we have had a 3b and 1b problem for a long time. - and, for the most part, our OF has been fine forever. It is, now, the IF. Now, however, we have one probable MLB starter (Frandsen), a superior defensive stop gap (SS), and the usual holes at 1b, 3b. To me you can't fault Sabean for signing Rowand. There were lots of CFs on the FA market that had a lot to offer. And Rowand offers an upgrade. It is just divorced from the IF problem. Fairly little time was consumed in the romance of Rowand. Sabean improves the OF because it was lying there for him to take. There are no such opportunites in the IF. (I thought for a while that Mike Lamb might be a suitable stop gap. - I think I was wrong). I just don't see any IFs ofn the quality + affordability that Rowand brings.
In other words, Sabean is fishing in two different barrels. One is easy and, for little he lands a big fish. The other barrel is mostly minnows. To say it is his fault that he is only getting nibbles from minnows is unrealistic.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 6:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I find it hard to believe you really feel both of these things to be true, but they do seem to be lurking at the basis of some your posts. Sabean has been the GM for 11 seasons now, long-term and short-term planning have been under his supervisions. And yet we go into yet another offseason essentially trolling a thin FA market to replace about half our lineup (a near annual occurance over the last 5 or 6 years). How can this not be his responsibility?
by Roger on Dec 20, 2007 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But, I definitely am not in the camp that says Sabean bears no responsibility. Clearly he does, and the majority of it. But I find it such a turn-off the read over and over the kind of lambastic drivel that I quote in the title piece to this diary, tired of the smug chirping 'Sabean's an idiot' when all he has done is some transaction the poster wouldn't have done himself. I will say that I clearly do not think Sabean is an idiot and I do not think he is insane. I think he is an above average GM. I do wonder if the game has passed him by. Many of the criticisms levelled against him are, to one degree or another, quite valid. I also think there are ways in which his record is distorted (well not really distorted, the record is what it is). Example. For effect it is said we have had 3 losing seasons in a row. This is true. I think it is hard to fault Sabean for '05, the year Barry was out the entire year. '06 is similar, as Barry was half of his usual self. We could get into a very long discussion, but suffice it to say, when you ahve Barry Bonds I think you are obligated to build your club around him; and Sabean did. When the guy goes down, the team is going to crash. Sure, in some philosophical way, Sabean is responsible for that. But when you are assessing the job he did, you take the realities nof the situation into consideration. For example, UCLA is hiring a guy from a small school with a 5-13 record to become their next Fball coach. The guy is reputedly an up and comer. This is smart shopping on the part of UCLA. They are not rotely applying some bullshit mantra.
'07 is another story. I don't thin anybody has the answers. I think it was one of those years where everything that could go wrong did. (Ortiz gets hurt, Benitez sucks, Feliz is his usual, Roberts & Aurilia are both hurt for substantial periods of time, Durham misplaces his favorite bat, and on and on. I would quarrel with the ?Zito signing, but other than that, I think it is as much bad luck as it is bad judgment. I do admit I do not subscribe to the youth is better mantra. That is not to say that I have not learned a lot about players periods of peak performance, declines, etc. So, I don't think there was anything wrong with the signing of Roberts and Aurilia last year. Are they somewaht more likely to suffer injury? I guess. Certainly that is the common wisdom. That may be true; I just say it is not yet a researched and established fact. I find it hard to believe a guy can go from 30, a very producti9ve year, to 33 and suddenly be a collosal injury risk and ripe for a Durhamesque fall in production.
B ut, to summrize, last year was just wierd. The team won ONLY 39 out of 94 1 or 2 run ball games. They underperformed their Pythagoran expectation by 6 games. Sure, Sabean is ultimately responsible. But not in the same way Nolan is. Nolan has a list of clear fuck ups that render him ineffective as a leader, as a HC, as a strategist - in short, in all the qualities necessary to be HC. Last year, for the Giants is more inexplicable.
Unlike Nolan, Sabean has some very successful history, with this team. And he has made a number of changes that I think auger well for the future. He has increased emphasis on the draft, foreign (chiefly Latin American) players, he has changed scouts, coaches. He has identified what he thinks is important to win: opitching defense, speed. And he has drafted consist with that philosphy. And that drafting has produced remarkable results. 4/5 of an outstanding
SP rotation he drafted, with at least 2 more on the way. Over half of the bull pen is home grown, with many more pieces just a year or two away. And the lineup is not a complete waste. Keeping in mind his stated philosophy, this team is never going to have the type of offense the Mets, Yankees, or Angels have. But it is not too far from being completed, with, basically, half of the lineup set: We have enough OFs to fill the positions in the way Sabean wants them filled for several years; and we have (likely) settle one IF spot (Frandsen). While we have a few other potential IF parts (Ort, Velez, Burris), we have definite needs at 1b, 3b, SS. WE also are going to need a catcher not later than April '10. So, we have 4 pending needs, and, as to the corner IFs at least, spots that are difficult to fill.
So, to summarize, I think he is on the way. I don't think there is a definite roadmap - I don't think that si possible. But he brought in an actual useful part. He states he continues to look to upgrade 1b, 3b. As nervous as he makes me, I am more inclined to see the progress being made and accept that those last 3,4 positions will be filled.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Deshabile
Well, I just see a different picture. When it was time to groom a replacement for Bonds (2000-2003), none was groomed. When team payrolls skyrocketed and it became apparent that producing good, young, cheap players was vital to the ongoing stability of a team, Sabean punted draft picks and kept signing expensive free agents. When Feliz proved that he wasn't a major league hitter, he was re-signed. When Cain made his impressive rise through the system and Lincecum dazzled in his debut, Sabean signed an obviously declining soft-tossing starting pitcher (just what we didn't need) to a six-year contract for $126 million. When we ended 2007 with 4 centerfielders, Sabean went out and signed a free agent centerfielder - just what we didn't need. And after Sabean established a track record of ineptitude in drafting hitters (and only slight success in drafting pitchers), Magowan gave Sabean a 2-year extension.
This doesn't sound like Soviet Russia to you, where incompetence was rewarded, and everybody knew the system was broken?
We are simply noting the fact that the emperor has no clothes. Having worn clothing years ago isn't an excuse.
by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Deshabile
To just list Feliz, without an analysis of who else was available is cherry picking. I know many were opposed to the signing. I happened to think Feliz was going to turn it around. Brian and I were way wrong.
The Zito signing was a little weird but I don't think it crippled the team; and I don't think they've been standing on the sideleines of the FA market. And if you're against signing expensive FAs as a starting point, the Zito signing really isn't important. It didn't prohibit them from particpating in the FA market - and you're opposed to being in that market anyway. And it would be foolish after a dozen or so A ball games to count on Lincecum.
Your point about Rowand has been gtalked about so much as to not require repeating. But, yours is a valid opinion; the converse (Sabean's opinion) is not wrong or incompetent; it does improve the team, it doesn't cost players, it does give more flexibility.
The Soviet system started from nothing and stayed at nothing for decades. This GM suffered a completely unforseeable, season ending injury to his best player. So, yes, I give him a pass for '05. '06 is inconclusive. '07 is a failure. But even before '07 steps were being made - and continue to be made. Even with Zito they have great SP. They have very good and improving RP - mostly home grown. They have an above average OF, slightly above average C. With any luck they will have near average IF this year. So, yes, I see progress. What I don't see is the 1b or 3b of the future. If and when those players are brought in, the wind goes out of the sails of your argument.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Deshabile
Your response to '06 I have to take even more exception to because they'd just gone through '05. They knew that counting on Bonds was risky to say the least and they knew what the rest of the team looked like and still they did very little to change things (FWIW I was saying pretty loudly from ST that year that they needed to make some big bold moves with Schmidt, Alou, and Durham to try to bring in more talent for the future because the critical mass of FAs facing them at the end of '06 was going to put them in a bind that would be nearly impossible to recover from). And '07 certainly looked to me (and a lot of the baseball expert world) like a last place finish fromt he time the pitchers and catchers reported, so I don't really understand what was so weird about it.
Perhaps I'm incurably incapable of seeing positives that are right in front of me, but right now it certainly looks to me like Sabes is constructing a 95+ loss team and I'm already mentally prepared for finding pleasures in small joys of the season.
by Roger on Dec 21, 2007 9:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Deshabile
It is a false dichotomy, perpetrated by Giants managment and the media that:
"Having Bonds" = "Cannot plan for the future"
I won't say "can't rebuild" - because "rebuild" is the wrong paradigm.
Similarly, it's nonsense to suggest that a team with the revenues of the Giants couldn't come up with a plan that was both "win now" and "win later".
by zenbitz on Dec 21, 2007 9:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by sharksrog on Dec 21, 2007 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget SHINJO!!
by tobias on Dec 21, 2007 8:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Don't forget SHINJO!!
by Roger on Dec 21, 2007 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Don't forget SHINJO!!
by tobias on Dec 21, 2007 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy
by hairball on Dec 19, 2007 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 3:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 3:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 3:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
1) Sabean has never claimed to have cut ties with all the older players. You have to exaggerate to try to make your confusing and weak point.
2) Why argue about Klesko, Benitez, Atchison, Feliz. They are gone. The roster is younger for '08 than it was for '07. It is a fact. You just don't like that fact as it doesn't fit with your irrational, emotional hatred.
3) What is your point about Atchison? Or, what, then, is "old?" He certainly is older than Wilson, Henn, Correian, Lincecum. By subtracting him and adding, say, Cappellan, the roster gets younger. That is a fact.
4) "Then young to you must mean under 35..." This is just stupid. Rowand is 30 now. Who cares how old he will be at the end of the contract. That is completely irrelevant. We can discuss the '12 roster in Dec of '11. B ecause you have no way of knowing if Rowand will still be with the team then. That is why the length of the contract is the smallest of issues.
5) Try reading what I actually say and arguing agaisnt that. Don't create some imagined argument and then refute it. I never talked about Clark and certainly never took a position one way or the other as to signing him.
6) You see no youth in the Roberts/Winn/Rowand OF? How is it that Atchison, at 32 is young, but now, when you wnat to make a different argument, 30 is old? And in considering out OF, what difference does their age make? To begin with, maybe one or more will be traded. Beyond that, they are all decent to good OFs both defensively and offensively. Our OF is not going to be the cause of losing games next year.
7) the Lowry/Encarn trade. Again, try to read what I wrote
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 6:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
1)I didn't say Sabean cut ties with anyone. You did. Read your own friggin posts, numnuts. And if my point's so weak, then why does everyone else on this thread seem to completely agree with me? Sounds like someone's in denial.
2)I argued about Atchison, Benitez, Klesko, etc because you brought them up in the thread. Please refer to the 3rd sentence in point 1.
3)32 is not old to me. It seems to be old to you, as that's what you called Atchison (we cut ties with him because he happens to suck ass, not because he's old.) I call anything older than 34 or so old for a baseball player. If he's showing no signs of real aging, then I guess I could make an exception by maybe a couple of years. And he's 31 by the way. Check your facts. Again, refer to the insult in point 1. And another side note, we're not replacing him with Capellan. We most likely have no intention of playing Capellan. He's only on the roster so he stays with the organization and so that Boston doesn't take him back.
4) I highly doubt we're ever gonna move Rowand. Remember? He provides the warrior spirit for our team by colliding with walls and smashing his face. That said, I'd rather control a player for 5 years starting when he's about 26 to 28. not at the end of his career. Who's gonna want a 35 year old CF at the '12 trade deadline? He's staying put. That I can promise. Either way, he's certainly not a youngster anymore.
5)I understand that while you didn't promote signing Clark, you're still telling us not to argue against it for lack of a better option. This entire diary stemmed from an arguement about signing Clark. I didn't fabricate an arguement for myself to combat. I'm not quite that bored.
6)I never said our OF was old. Jesus H Christ stop fabricating arguements and trying to defame my character. Who do you think you are? But seriously, Rowand aint young, Winn aint young, and Roberts RRREAAALLLY aint young. That's why I see no youth in that. Do you see any prospects in the starting OF? Because I sure don't. And who do you propose we ditch any of them for? Edwin Encarnacion? He's a stonehanded lazy bad attitude; why would anyone want him?
7)I read exactly what you said. You criticized Encarnacion, and asked why in the hell would Cinci wanna do that? And I answered the later. I bet Cinci, if they wouldn't be all over it, would certainly at least think about it.
And now I'll be more serious about the tone issue. Please chill out and drop the damn tone. I'm starting to understand why sgngb wants to punch you in the face.
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 8:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Somehow, I really doubt you're in a position where you can make that promise.
by Goofus on Dec 20, 2007 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
This team doesn't seem to be making a conscious change it seems to only give in to youth when extreme age forces them to. Feliz may still be back, Bonds would be if it wasn't for his trial, Atchison was crap, and Benitez was hated universally. I don't see one move that was not forced upon the Giants. Not one move was made in order to displace an older player with a younger one except signing Rowand for a position we didn't really need. Stop sticking your head in the sand. I think JUST ONE signing or trade for a position player under the age of 30 this offseason would shut a lot of people up but it just hasn't happened. I feel like so many others do that Sabean is giving a middle finger to the fans that really care about our great franchise. For the first time in a decade I'm close to giving up and following my local team........... the stupid Padres.
by someguynamedg on Dec 19, 2007 3:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Tony Clark is a red herring. You assume all sorts of facts and scenarios, without having the slightest idea what role they may have for him - but you do assume they have one. The offseason, the team's future does not ride on Tony Clark. You aregue as if Sabean turned down the next Pujols so he could sign Clark. There aren't that many 27 y.o. FAs. And there aren't that many on the trade market. That why MLB teams - all of them, not just the Giants - sign older veterans - to fill out the roster with players who are both available and have some shot at performing (see the Rockies, in talks with Brian Giles).
And you do what I complain about as a tendency of the LF - you distort facts, set up a straw man to easily knock down. Aurilia is not the 3b, Sabean has already said, at this point, Frandsen is. And why complain about Roberts? If DAvis or Lewis or Schierholtz beat him out, then good for us. But Roberts hit 290 after recovering from his surgery .last year. The combination of these OFs give us the possibility that one or more of them will hit 280+ next year. And the team is not hurt by that scenario.
You don't see one move that wasn't forced on the Giants. That is because you ignore each and every one of them: Lincecum, Cain, Lowry, Correia, Wilson, Hennessey, Cappellan, Frandsen, Velez, DAvis (traded for and played), Lewis, Ort, Schierholtz. Those players are all young and all have potential. Are any of the position prospects stars yet? No, but, ostensibly, you want to trade some of the young pitching for young position players - they still won't be stars, we may still go thru a summer of Feliz, Linden, Niekro, Ellison, etc, etc. There is no guarantee that Keppinger or Marte, or Encarnacion will be even an above average player.
My complaint is that too many people ignore the changes that are happening. Instead, they make the same old criticisms without acknowledging the changes and improvements that have been made or appreciating the difficulty of just "Sabes, get it done."
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
And people want to trade some of the young pitching for position prospects because we have such a massive surplus of it. And there's no guarantee the pitchers will pan out in the majors either. We might as well get someone like Marte or Encarnacion because we can afford to give them a starting role at 3B because we currently have nobody there. We have far more pitching prospects than we have room to let them play. We have 1, maybe 2 if we trade Lowry, rotation spots open, and about 8 starting prospects. (Correia, Misch, Sanchez, Alderson, Bumgarner, Periera, etc.) Not all of them can get to start this year. Therefor, we're not wasting anything if we trade them away for a position prospect who WILL get a shot.
In summary, your arguement makes no sense because you're saying we have to sign an old guy to start while the position prospects become stars. It doesn't usually work that way. The youngsters have to play to get good. If Ort ever becomes a star, we can't have Clark there to delay the process. And chill out. You sound like you wanna punch sgndg in the face.
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by someguynamedg on Dec 19, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by rxmeister on Dec 19, 2007 8:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
The Giants organization under Sabean has shown the ability to develop young pitching. Sabean himself has made a couple of decent trades and a couple of decent free agent signings.
The Giants organization under Sabean has not been able to develop one speck of hitting talent. Draft after draft after draft...nada, zero, zippo. He's also made one of the biggest bonehead trades in the history of the franchise. The last few years, he's shown very little from the free agent market as well.
Why anyone would trust him to put together even a even "league average" batting lineup amazes me. It's pretty clear that Barry Bonds carried this lineup as long as possible, and in effect kept Sabean in his job as well.
In my opinion, if you are really looking to rebuild a franchise, you need to start weeding out the so-so talents from the organization, and that includes the GM.
by otis29 on Dec 20, 2007 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by someguynamedg on Dec 19, 2007 11:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Even ignoring the fact he hasn't upgraded the 1B and 3B situations (after all, the off-season isn't over yet), Sabean has bungled the OF situation. He's taken an already crowded OF, one that left younger players like Davis, Lewis and Schierholtz in danger of being blocked unless Roberts or Winn was traded, and added yet another vet to block them. Yes, Rowand improves the lineup marginally, but he won't put up the numbers he did in the Philly bandbox, he won't appreciably change the Giants '07 win total, and he will keep at least one of those younger players on the bench or in the minors.
The fact that he is now considering Tony Clark to man another position where a younger player could be auditioned is merely yet another piece of evidence that Rebuilding Sabean is no different from Contending Sabean.
by English Professor on Dec 19, 2007 3:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But, it kind of points out that the only constant is the ability to criticize Sabean. You say he hasn't upgraded 1b or 3b. Well, true, but if he doesn't, we go into '08 with 2 young prospects (which I am all for), Frandsen and Ort. Personally, I would rather see Frandsen at 2b and Durham shining shoes. But I expect magmt thinks Durham can bounce back. If he doesn't, if he hits to hit 210, I expect he will be DFAd. But, back to the point. The Fringe is united in their criticism, but divided in what Sabean should do. You are talking about upgrading 1b & 3b. Others want young, relatively unproven prospeects to be traded for and to play. Well, which is it? We're not getting David Wright or M Cabrera for Lowry.
AS to your comments on the OF, I think Rowand is more than a marginal improvement. Personally, I would rather have seen an OF of Shierholtz, Davis/Lewis, and Winn. But I am not so haughty as to assume my way is the only way. The proposed OF is a better OF than the one I prefer. And, if the decision is that the team needs to win 82-88 games to contine to be financially viable, well, they have the studies, and surveys and experts to advise them on that. And I don't think our complete lack of knowldege on the subject trumps.
Mostly, though, I think you need to extend the wisdom you show regarding 1b & 3b to your consideration of the OF. Because, you are assuming the team is going into the season with the 3 vets. Let's argue that if and when that becomes a reality.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 3:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Actually, offensively Rowand is a HUGE downgrade from Bonds.
by zenbitz on Dec 19, 2007 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by rxmeister on Dec 19, 2007 8:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by boonitez on Dec 19, 2007 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OFFENSIVELY
by rfloh on Dec 19, 2007 10:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: OFFENSIVELY
This is actually a good point. 2004/2007 Rowand, Healthy and hitting .300 is pretty good.
I am going with the assumption that he will hit something like the average of 2004-2007 (2 good and 2 bad years).
Rowand (in the good 2007) was worth ~101 EQR in 684 PAs.
Bonds put up 92 EQR in 477 PAs.
So we need to get 8 EQR in 207 PAs to make them even. Ort, Lewis, and Davis extended to 207 PAs makes about 25 EQR.
So we get 117 EQR of Bonds + Rep vs. 101 for Rowand... I guess throwing in defense this is a clear edge for Rowand. IF he hits like 2007.
I retract the word "HUGE" from my original comment.
by zenbitz on Dec 20, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I'm so sick and tired of this "gamer" tag we hear about with Rowand. I heard the same nonsense about Roberts. Absolutely, I think Rowand can produce in excess of our current CF situation, but not by a whole heck of a lot. Before we start circle-jerking over him, at least let's take an honest look at his numbers.
He had good years in 2004 and 2007, below average for an OF outside of that. Last year, he had very solid numbers...in a hitter's park, in a lineup that includes Rollins, Utley and Ryan Howard. And he comes to a difficult hitter's park, with nary a decent OBP or power source around him.
My guess is this is going to be a reality check for you pro-Rowand folks to swallow. Yes, things can get worse offensively. Sabean still needs to make some moves - adding a player who is a slight improvement over our existing CF isn't going to get the job done.
by otis29 on Dec 20, 2007 9:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
It is not quite clear to me what the criticism is as far as signing Rowand. He is 30, in the prime of his career, He produced well last year, but not an outlier. By signing him we are able to hold onto other players, both those who will be counted on in '08 and beyond and those who will be trading chips. WE only traded a 2d round pick for an all star, a guy with 800+ OPS, a good guy for teamwork, a hardworker...
He gets whipsawed: He doesn't have a long track record (that's because he's not that old), but he'll be old soon.
The idea of his numbers sufferinghas some conventional wisdom type of credibility to it. But has anyone actually lookad at his hit chart and over laid it on AT&T? True, he did hit lights out at Philly, but I don't think anyone is expecting him to duplicate that; but if he hits his ';07 road numbers (299 BA, 800_OPS) everyone should b e aquite happy.
As to your last line, who is saying the job is done? It's December
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
He ran into a wall on 5/12/2006.
I did scan his splits and he was hitting like .300/.350/.522 before he "hit the wall"
And any excuses for his sub-mediocre 2005?
by zenbitz on Dec 20, 2007 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Year/vs. RHP/vs. LHP
2004 .881/.946
2005 .704/.828
2007 .876/.918
He was also down for LHP in 2005, but given the smaller samples, typically there is a lot of variation there.
So we got his prime for 3 years, but by 2011, the average CF is probably getting about $16M vs. $12M he will make, so even if he is below average, we will be paying him below average as well. The idea, to me, is that he should be a plus CF for the next few years when we need him to be that for us, and hopefully when he declines, our young players will be ready to take over for him in the offense.
Per the talk about his home parks helping, he also helped himself by having an OPS of .907 in 2004 and .843 in 2007 on the road.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 21, 2007 10:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
BAiP ISO iOBP
2004 .340 .234 .051
2005 .316 .137 .059
2007 .345 .206 .065
His K rate was about the same all 3 years.
HR/PA
2004 24/534
2005 13/640
2007 27/684
So not only did his batting average drop when he hit the ball, but his power was way down as well.
Conclusion? I hope his girlfriend left him or something in 2005...but it's a cause for concern.
Hey something else to like about Rowand... 2nd in the league in HBP for 3 years running!
by zenbitz on Dec 22, 2007 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by victor frankenstein on Dec 20, 2007 6:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Why do you assume these two things have to be mutually exclusive? Personally, I think trading for a relatively unproven prospect to play 1B and 3B would be an upgrade (as long as those prospects showed some glimmer of potential in their minor league numbers and/or scouting reports).
"We're not getting David Wright or M Cabrera for Lowry."
Now who's response is George Bush-like, trotting out as truth the same tired assumptions and conclusions? You assume when I say "upgrade" I mean "huge and completely unreasonable upgrade to the best young 3B under the sun" and conclude I'm being unrealistic. That's straight from Chapter 1 of 'Straw Man Arguments for Dummies'. When I say upgrade 3B, I'm talking about trading for a blocked prospect or taking a chance on a cheap pickup like Dallas McPherson or Morgan Ensberg, I don't expect Mike Schmidt: The Early Years.
by English Professor on Dec 19, 2007 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But when you talk about a guy like Ensberg, or even McPherson, they are wanting, here in Dec, a guranteed, probably multi year contract? Are you willing to go there? That, in my judgment is a foolish risk. But, if no other team wants to take that plunge, maybe one of them can be brought in on a minor league contract, and given a chance to earn a MLB contract.
So, actually, I would say you are waffling. Your examples of "upgrades" are not upgrades at all. They are different players, but not necessarily better than what we have. But, I will concede perhaps I gave you too much credit and assumed that by upgrade you meant at least approaching league average
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Now, I'm not so sure about Ensberg, since I haven't looked at his stats or a scouting report recently, but I don't think a multi-year contract for McPherson is automatically a bad idea. If he gets the contract doallars for an unproven, oft injured backup player, I think locking him in for 2-3 yrs wouldn't be bad. If he gets 5.5 Million/year I would have to reconsider.
I'd rather the Giants were wasting money on risk/reward players during the rebuilding years than "proven" commodities like Rowand, Winn and Roberts, or Feliz and Clark looking at the FAs.
by kennv on Dec 19, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by GiantFanInExile on Dec 21, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Hey ...I'm liking the sound of that already! Yo Tooneeeyyy! Gonna poke one out into the cove, Tone-ey? Wooyeah
I'm glad you pointed out how young Schierholtz is...I can totally see why we are looking hard at Gonzo now.
I'm sure we're looking at Benson so we can deal away one of those pesky young arms at the deadline! I just betcha the Nats won't need Aaron Boone..heck we might even be able to lock him up long term! We'll just have to sit tight and suffer through that other 27 y.o. playing at 3rd until then.
by DaStick on Dec 19, 2007 3:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
first base has been an issue since the 2nd year of JT's contract. And we still dont have a fix (el gato grande notwithstanding).
meanwhile we've had something like 6 different catchers in the last 7 years, at a position that never really needed fixing (Yorvit would have been fine), and about a billion lame of moves. Marvin Bernard? Jose Cruz,JR? Reggie Sanders?
3rd base has been a nightmare too ever since Sabes failed to resign Billy Mueller.
Sabes has no-one but himself to blame if he gets the same criticism over and over. He makes the same mistakes over and over, just like a true jackass.
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 19, 2007 4:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Allfrank, I think you're wrong..
It appears that Sabean doesn't recognize declining skill sets. We could all see the eventual end of the Bonds Era, but no replacement was ever drafted or traded for. Sabean certainly seems loathe to give chances to younger hitters. He's displayed a mind-numbing indifference to the amateur draft. The last trade he made that really helped the Giants was the Schmidt deal (Rajai is nice, but we really didn't NEED a CF).
My boss at work was encouraged to resign last year, and she had a better record than Brian Sabean. No hyperbole, she did. But it wasn't good enough for the corporate folks. Why would Magowan et al accept any less?
by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 7:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, Sabean could have signed
by rfloh on Dec 20, 2007 9:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hell, Sabean could have signed
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 20, 2007 9:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Meanwhile the team has re-signed Vizquel rather han netting a pick and cheaply replacing his production, is negotiating with Pedro Feliz (which would kill Frandsen's chances of starting since no commitment has been made to bench Durham) and Tony Clark (who would take ABs away from Ortmeier, since you cite Ort), and is actively turning away players like Dallas McPherson while taking playing time away from players like Nate Schierholtz...
There does not appear to have been any change in organizational philosophy, and excuse us for being a little frustrated by the never ending train of 1-3 year contracts for filler veterans at EVERY poasition.
Except for the occassional 5-7 year contract for pseudo-all-stars.
by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 5:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by JRPhillips on Dec 19, 2007 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by jponry on Dec 19, 2007 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by The Gene Hackman on Dec 19, 2007 6:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Your second paragraph is another example of what I am talking about. You generally add a lot to these diaries, have many good insights... But this paragraph is wholly your iagination. Well, maybe not wholly. You have taken a few facts and woven them into a collosal tapestry of paranoia (well, paranoia is nto precisely accurate. But you take a few isolated facts, then read into them other facts and motivations and construct a rather complete anti Sabean diatribe that is lacking in any significant facts. Not taht those concusions could not be true, but to say you know, here in December, that they are true, is not only inaccurate but it is unsupportable and nothing more than hysteria - based on believing you are seeing your worst fears come true.
It is just irrational. None of these things are true yet. To trot them out as facts is delusional.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 6:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
As for the rest of it, I don't see what is so unfounded. Vizquel's production could have been replaced easily and cheaply, and it was reported that Sabean gave him he contract to keep the White Sox from signing him, which would have netted us a pick. So there is some speculation there, but not a whole lot. With the Rowand signing, the Giants have said that the starting outfield is now Roberts/Davis in left, Rowand in center, and Winn in left. Now, Rowand is not a bad player and his signing was not the worst thing in the world, but Schierholtz losing a starting job and Lewis getting pushed out completely kind of defeats the purpose of making the 25 man roster younger on average.
The infield right now is Ortmeier/Aurilia at first, Durham at second, Vizquel at short, and Frandsen at third. If Clark is signed, Ortmeier either keeps the platoon or gets pushed out. If Pedro Feliz is signed, then Frandsen, then Frandsen gets pushed out.
So the team is trying to sign players who are either veteran fillers for a couple years (Feliz, Clark, Vizquel) or pseudo-all-stars (Aaron Rowand) who will either take playing time from or completely eliminate all of our youngsters (with the possible exception of Ortmeier, depending on what you see the team doing with Aurilia).
The organizational philosophy is still to sign or try to sign short term solutions rather than try anything that might provide any hope for long term success. It's depressing.
Yes, Clark and Feliz might still not sign, and there is still time to magically unload Roberts or Winn (a hypothetical transaction we haven't even heard rumors about), but I will never be encouraged by he team doing things the right way despite its best efforts. I might be relieved, but I won't be encouraged.
by howtheyscored on Dec 19, 2007 7:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
This is not, in any way, to be construed as a defense of Sabean.
But there are no available long term solutions. None. No one is going to trade us hot young studs for our crappy veterans.
There are no (well, there rarely are) young free agents, other than scrap heap guys. If they were any good, they'd still be on the team that brought them up.
The only trade chips we have are Lowry and Sanchez - and frankly, they ARE young, cheap and under control. But they are not Dan Haren, so maybe you get a couple-three B+ prospects for them.
So, ignoring the past (since you may as well - can't change it), signing stop gaps is all Sabean can do.
I do admit that his wanton disregard for draft picks is criminal.
by zenbitz on Dec 20, 2007 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
That was actually a sentence that I spent some time coming up with the words for. One thing that people do sometimes get wrong is the idea that we can get long term fixes now. I absolutely agree with you. There are no long term solutions/fixes that we can get right now. Or, there are some, but they are pretty much without exception either too costly, too complicated, or too unlikely to believe in.
But it's not a long term fix that I'm interested in. I'm interested in seeing any attention paid to the long term health of the team, especially if the team is in a position where it can either make a short-sighted move or a long-sighted move.
That's what was maddening about Vizquel. Not that he isn't an adequate solution for next year - because he is - but because with Vizquel there was a short term option (sign him) and a long term option (net a pick) and the team picked the short term option. That's what's maddening about Zito and Rowand. Both had short term and long term effects. In the short term, there is name recognition and some excitement. In the long term they are average players signed to superstar contracts. That's not completely fair to Rowand. His contract, though a year too long, is actually reasonable price-wise. I shouldn't pick on Rowand. The real problem with Rowand is Roberts/Winn. But Roberts/Winn are other examples of short term solutions trumping long term planning.
Negotiating with Feliz and Clark is another example, as is going "in opposite directions" with players like McPherson, as is being "rumored" (by Jayson f'n Stark) to be interested in Prior, which would be a good thing, but then actually showing up with interest at Kris Benson's workout, which would be a bad thing.
The really tricky thing about all of this is thinking of Frandsen, Lewis, Davis, Schierholtz, and Ortmeier (and maaaaybe Velez) as long term investments. Frandsen and Schierholtz could be average ML starters, and Davis could be a proper leadoff guy if things go right. Ortmeier, Velez, and Lewis are all almost sure things not to be anything but backups at best. There's a lot of "could" coming off of those players, none of which is followed by "be good."
But I would rather take a chance on a guy who could have a productive future with the team (I'm talking Frandsen, Nate, and Davis here, not Lewis, Ort, or the "others") than keep cutting into their playing time with guys who will be around for a year or two. Or make the decisions that save and stockpile draft picks rather than the ones that fill one year holes. Or find reclamation projects with long term upside rather than guys on the downsides of their coreers coming off of flukish career years.
I don't really care that the team isn't finding long term solutions at any position. Those just don't exist realistically. What really gets me is that time and time again the organization is presented with the choice of either doing something good for a year vs. something that could pan out long term, and at every single turn they are picking the former.
by howtheyscored on Dec 20, 2007 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But I do not think that that is the organizational philosophy. I do not think the organizational strategy is at all clear, here in late Dec. But I would say it appears to be a) try to upgrade for the future, b) don't trade away valuable trade chips unless we are getting value, c) try to put the best product on the filed for '08 without jeopardizing the future.
I do not think one can talk about the OF strategy until we see how it shakes out come ST.
AS to your last sentence, it is not necessarily, nor likely, a simple 2 option choice. There are all sorts of options and compromises that can be made somewhere between the two extremes. I hope we don't go into ST with all 3 of R/R/W, but even if we do, that does not necessarily mean '08 is lost as a developmental year for Lewis/Davis,Schierholtz. While I would rather see the three of them man the OF for all of '08, any of the three would benefit from a full year in AAA - or a year split between AAA and MLB. I don't think one can jsut categorically say Sabean is wrong if he won't put out a Florida type team, full of recent AAA players and rehabbers and prospects. What seems to me to be his apporach to young players is the way he did it with Aurilia - and, I suppose, Feliz, 1/2 year, 1/2 year, show you can do it don't just hand them the job. And now, a guy like
Frandsen gets his shot. The others, I think, will get quite a few MLB ABs.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
There's my problem in a nutshell. Do we really think Sabean and Co. will have the patience to allow Frandsen or Schierholtz to actually get play time in? I'm doubting it. Instead, I think we'll continue signing more cagey veterans to two and three year deals.
by JRPhillips on Dec 19, 2007 5:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Paragraph 2: First, Sabean has already indicated that Frandsen is an important player in the mix for next year. Second, both Frandsen and Schierhotz got significant playing time last year, so what indicates they won't get significant playing time in '08?
This is another exapmle of no matter what he does, Sabean gets ripped. Right now we're going into the season with Ort and Aurilia pencilled inas some sort of 1b platoon. I don't hear anyone saying they're really comfortable with that.. There are, instead, two schools of thought: paly the young guys or bring in a young guy, player for the future.
After what we went thru in '06 with Niekro, I can undersatnt why Sabean is unwilling to count of the Ort/Aurilia platoon. Bringing in a Clark type of player makes some sense (I don't mean that I necessarily advocate it, just that I don't think it is so wrong that it must be avoided at all cost) - it allows us to bring in a little insurance at gfairly low cost and avoids the having to go out in mid-season and overpaying for the next Hillenbrand.
by allfrank on Dec 19, 2007 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I'd like to go point by point to counter you, but I think my counter-argument is pretty straight forward. Sabean prefers savvy veteran hitters. Tony Clark is a savvy veteran hitter. Feliz has experience, so does Ray Ray. Durham is also making an assload of money.
I'm not going to argue this further. All I'm going to say is, I'll be happy if Sabean takes a chance with a player at first and/or third. But the idea of more of the status quo pisses me off. IF Sabes breaks that mold, I'll be happy. But I need to see something different happen this year before I'll believe Sabean's the man. Sorry about the lack of faith, but it's been a very aggravating offseason.
by JRPhillips on Dec 19, 2007 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
"Bringing in a Clark type of player makes some sense (I don't mean that I necessarily advocate it, just that I don't think it is so wrong that it must be avoided at all cost) - it allows us to bring in a little insurance at gfairly low cost and avoids the having to go out in mid-season and overpaying for the next Hillenbrand."
First off what is this insurance for? Having Ort fail? Sure he has a decent chance at blowing it but I don't think we should blow millions on an insurance policy that won't help us out in two years. The second and more important thing is that there is no chance is hell that the Giants should be looking for help at mid-season. We will not be contending so unless we are able to deal for someone on the cheap for a player we don't need (read:Durham, Aurilia, Vizquel, Roberts, Winn) we should not even think about trading for a rental player like Hillenbrand. I am starting to get the feeling that you have a much different view about the state of the Giants than I have. I doubt you are ever going to change your views much like the "Lunatic Fringe" you dismiss. I hope the team figures things out and I hope you are right that Sabes has everything under control. Happy Holidays and long live the Fringe.
by someguynamedg on Dec 20, 2007 12:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Meanwhile, Frank keeps trying to convince all of us that recognize the insanity of Sabean's ways that Sabean has a plan that is working. That is also insanity. Get a clue, Frank.....smell the coffee, wake up, join the real world where the rest of the lunatic fringe can see what's really happening.
by oldrips on Dec 20, 2007 12:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Example 1: the "repeat the same behavior" refrain. Actually, it is not the same behavior - unless you reserve to yourself the right to define every move. Are there certain similarities, sure. But to insist Sabean repeats teh exact same behaviors is to grasp the anecdote as fact.
Example 2: "bringing in used up veterans..." I will grant that '07 had a couple of disasters, Aurilia and Klesko. But, technically, Durham and Omar had been brought in years before, and years before they were "used up." To date, no used up veterans have been brought in (during the Winter of '07/'08). And, parenthitically, Sabean isn't perplexed at all. He has acknowledged needing middle of the order help, RP help, and upgrades at 1b and 3b.
Example 3: I am far from claiming that Sabean's plan is working. I have doubts as to what the plan is and the extent to which it is followed (or how easy it is to deviate from it).
I guess it is easier to just make this assertion and then try to ridicule it than it is to respond in any meaningful way to what I have written.
Just for the record, I don't really ahve a position on Clark. I am in favor of playing Ort; I am not in favor of playing him for 6 months if he is the second coming of Niekro. Sending him to Fresno and replacing him with Aurilia is not the fall back position. If Sabean is looking for a fall back position (which Clark could be), I applaud him. I don't particularly see the need of Rowand. I would prefer to see Lewis/Davis/Schierholtz get lots of playing time. But I think it would be pretty presumptuous of me to insist my preferred plan is superior, in essence is the only reasonable plan. So, while I disagree, I have to acknowledge Rowand makes the team stronger, he doesn't cost us a valuable trading chip, and he does give us a middle of the order bat.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 6:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
allfrank: go back a read your reply to Howie's post and then tell us that ad hominem attacks aren't actually your speciality. You call her both irrational and delusional.
Not quite sure why you're getting a pass on all your flaming, but you sure are getting your speech and debate schooling for the month.
Being provocative is good, being mean to do it, not so much.
by The Gene Hackman on Dec 20, 2007 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I'll call it an honor.
by howtheyscored on Dec 20, 2007 10:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by otis29 on Dec 20, 2007 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by The Gene Hackman on Dec 20, 2007 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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by howtheyscored on Dec 20, 2007 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 2:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Giving Frandsen, Schierholz, and Ortmeier (at least -- I think I'm forgetting someone) 600 PAs in 2008 will help the Giants a lot more in the long term. Either they'll show they're useful major league players, or they won't. Either way, the Giants will know a lot more about what they need to do in 2009 to possibly (cross your fingers and pray) contend.
As it is, the team average age may be declining, but the starting lineup is still going to favor the over-30 crowd, while letting the younger guys gather dust on the bench. When you're rebuilding, that's just backwards.
by Skaldheim on Dec 19, 2007 5:53 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
It doesn't make them a better team, in 2008 or later, if they truly are marginal players. In fact, it just means they will do worse than if the Giants had mediocre, but older, players playing everyday.
I'd rather the Giants try to get something akin to a mediocre lineup for next year and try to build through getting prospects that actually deserve the shot at 600 PAs.
by Sayhey on Dec 19, 2007 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
It is your last point that alludes to my real problem with Sabean--our ML-ready prospects are marginal and our development system has been mostly neglected under Sabean so that we can add the likes of Michael Tucker. In this era where would-be superstar free agents are generally re-signed to long-term deals before they ever hit the market, the only way to really strengthen your team is through the draft and by signing non-American free agents, neither of which the Giants have done well until very recently. You may argue that the Giants have been great at developing pitchers, but outside of Cain and Lincecum, that isn't really true. If it was, then we should be having no problem spinning off some of these guys for impact bats. I don't see other teams knocking down the doors to get Lowry, Sanchez, Correia, Misch, Hennessey, etc.
Although there are encouraging signs at the lowest levels of the minor leagues and Sabean may yet turn this ship around, there is no quick fix and the rebuild will take time regardless of who's doing it. I think we would all have a lot more patience with Sabean's moves in this damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't offseason were he not the one that led the Giants into this mess in the first place.
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Dec 19, 2007 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
That's why we want the youngsters to play. Otherwise they'll end up like Todd Linden. Who knows what he could have done playing every day in 2005, or 2006. Being kept in AAA has to do something to the psyche.
And I know we all know he really sucks, but I'm sure there are a lot of others like this. I mean, Jason Ellison got playing time over him! Somehow, to the team's management Jason Ellison was the better player.
by WalrusMan on Dec 20, 2007 12:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Well,
I've no problem with giving younger players a chance - if they've earned it. It just seems that too often on this board people get caught up in a mindset of only young players are valuable to the team. As long as veteran players can contribute, why should they be pulled off the field for a younger player who hasn't shown the talent or the numbers to replace them? Sorry, I like winning - old, young it doesn't matter, and right now, it seems to me signing or trading for a few stop gap veterans to get the Giants to the point when their truly promising talent gets to the major league level makes a hell of a lot of sense.
by Sayhey on Dec 20, 2007 12:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Your first question is circular. You play the guys to find out if they suck or not. You don't really know until they all get a bunch of MLB at bats. You can have a good hunch, but the Giants have been operating on those for years now, and losing.
If the guys play a lot and suck, the Giants are better off because they can get rid of the losers and try someone else (if nothing else, they'll have a clearer idea of what their actual needs are). If they succeed, the Giants are better off, period. The younger guys are more likely to be around for years, and thus won't have to replaced in 1-2 years due to old age and decrepitude like with the Tony Clarks and Omar Vizquels of the the world.
It's really just a difference between long-term and short-term thinking. There's a time for both in baseball. Right now, the Giants should be thinking long-term. In 2003, short-term thinking made a lot more sense, though it was sadly unsuccessful in getting the team a championship.
by Skaldheim on Dec 20, 2007 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Dec 20, 2007 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Thank You.
by Woody Wins on Dec 19, 2007 8:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
We got rid of Benitez because everyone hated him, we are still trying to re-sign Feliz, and Atchison we dumped because he's only a marginally useful journeyman.
We began the offseason by re-signing an aging shortstop who put up one of the worst offensive seasons in the past twenty years by a starting player. News from the Winter Meetings revealed that the Mets approached us about trading Milledge for Lowry, and we balked because we wanted another position player. Where was the logic there?
The purpose is not to get young, it is to get good. Putting Ortmeier at first base all year will not automatically make him a better player simply because he is there. If that were the case, I would like to volunteer for the vacant first baseman position. I am left-handed, and a patient hitter. Age does not make someone good.
I can complain about our outfield because it stinks. We have a guy who hits like a center-fielder in right (Winn), a hard-nosed yet tragically flawed center-fielder (Rowand), and three guys who are all 4th outfielders playing left (Roberts, Lewis, Davis in descending order of awesomeness). In fact, it is probably one of the worst outfields in baseball with the lumber. On the plus side, everyone can run very fast and 1/3 of the squad has prior experience in running into walls and igniting rallies or something.
The only two good things about this team are named Cain and Lincecum and they don't belong in that order. Before Rowand, the last big thing Sabean did was sign Mike Hampton to the largest contract ever given to a pitcher. And by Mike Hampton, I mean Barry Zito. And by Barry Zito, I mean someone who has shown decreasing ability every year in the past four years. Hmm.
Being a broken record does not mean the record is bad. That analogy didn't make sense, but let us pretend it did. We say the same things because Sabean does the same things. A few years ago, we intentionally sacrificed a first-round draft pick for Michael Tucker. Say that aloud. Try it. Chills the bones, man.
It's late, so I haven't made a lot of sense. I will end this comment by writing about the quote from Sabean where he told us all that if we had signed Vlad, we wouldn't have been able to sign Michael Tucker, Deivi Cruz, Tim Worrell, and Edgardo Alfonzo. Yeah.
by MidKnight on Dec 20, 2007 12:53 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
For example, notice how the response to the assertion that the team has gotten younger is not either agreement or disagreement, but is, well, Benitez was... and Feliz is... and Atchison is...
Those are not responses to the stated fact that the Giants have indeed, over the past two years, gotten younger. It is illogical to refuse to ackowledge that fact. Look at the roster for '05 and compare it to '06. Fact: the '06 roster is younger than the '05. The same is true for '07 vs '06.
When you do this it seems to indicate an unwillingness to look at your own beliefs and adjust them to the facts. Look at the number of personal attacks directed towards me in this diary. Why? Because I disgree with your cherished ideas.
How can any intelligent discussion occur if you are going to immediately become defensive if a 'cherished idea' is attacked?
It is a given that the team has and is getting younger. It is also pretty much a given that, to date, they have made painfully little progress in addressing the only remaining holes in the lineup, 1b and 3b. And those holes are so large that it is perfectly rl=elevant to discuss how to fill them. Any move is going to have 'cost.' One of the costs may be to temporarily get older at one of the positions. But it is pretty hard to have an intelligent discussion when certain subjects can't be put on the table. In other words, to many of you, your sacred cow is more important than a discussion of all the possiblities to get better (and thank you to the many who were open to all the possibilities [and not just mine, I really am not espousing a position]).
It is clear the organization is getting healthier. That is a fact. Whether optimal speed is being realized in the getting healthier is, of course, open for debate. Sure missteps are always possible and we always cringe when they appear to be made. But to just blindly go on and on putting the organization in the worst possible light - and then insisting you are absolutely correct, turns the discussion from one wieghing the pros and cons of a possible move to having to show that you really are on board with an accepted ideology.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 5:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
I love ya, I really do, but you seem entirely unable to listen to what others who are saying in this thread and then you accuse us of doing the same.
Stuff like this:
>> When you do this it seems to indicate an unwillingness to look at your own beliefs and adjust them to the facts. Look at the number of personal attacks directed towards me in this diary. Why? Because I disagree with your cherished ideas.
>> How can any intelligent discussion occur if you are going to immediately become defensive if a 'cherished idea' is attacked?
I thought, for the most part, everyones been very sane, and rational in this thread about a hot-button-topic (that stirs a lot of emotions) with Giants fans, Brian Sabean.
The offseason is young, so I can't criticize Sabes too much, but what a sad affair it is when your favorite offseason move is that your GM didn't trade away your young 1-2 talent but instead signed a high priced CF who could have questionable returns for the team. Thats been the biggest way that I've been able to digest the Rowand deal.
"Well, if it means that we get to keep Cain and Lincecum, I guess it's OK"
Isn't that kind of sad? I agree, that the Giants are a better team with Rowand on it but better is a relative term. Rowand maybe adds 3-5 wins to our record and I would have rather seen Nate and Fred get close to a years worth of AB's than sign Rowand.
To me, signing Rowand is kind of like be-dazzling your favorite denim jacket, sure it might look a little better, but underneath it's still a denim jacket! Are we Canadians!?
I'll submit that when your favorite move is one that your GM didn't do, something is wrong, or at least off kilter. I would have been OK if Sabean signed Neifi for 3 years if it meant we got to keep Cain and Lincecum, and thats just wrong.
Agree, disagree?
by xanthan on Dec 20, 2007 6:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
And the rest of what you say I agree with almost completely. Trading Cain or Lincecum was, in my mind, unthinkable. But part of this is because I have my own plan and I have an idea of what I think Sabean's plan is. And personally, while I loved the days of Bonds, Burks, Sanders, Santiago, the new plan of pitching speed and defense makes sense. Now when it was the Dodgers, I hated it; but if it is our guys, a la Dave Roberts, breaking from 3b to startle the pitcher, I like it. So, I definitely thought we are better off keeping our strong staff. Although, even that can be questioned. If for example, management is convinced, more than they were with Lincecum, that Bum and Aldersonare both Cainish #1 SPs, getting something big for Lincecum is not such a bad idea. Even under that scenario I think it is too soon. I think each year Lincecum pitches in the bigs enhances his value. I am all for standing pat this year, if for no other reason to let our potential trading chips - Lincecum, Lowry, Sanchez, misch... show progress and increase their trade value. I jsut don't think an experienced professional is crazy if he doesn't do it my way. And so, bringing in Rowand is good and bad. Good in that we don't give up any trading chips + he significantly improves the team; bad in that I wanted to see 400+ ABs for the 3 young guys. But, as aggressively as Sabean went after OF help, they must either a) see some substantial weakness in one or more of Lew/Dav/Schier or b) they have a plan, trade plan, AAA plan, or c) both a and b.
So, to answer your question, no, I see it differently. I see the two moves as, essentially, separate. I find it hard to believe Lincecum was ever seriously on the table (unless there are some serious issues with his personality or makeup, etc). Rowand had little cost (except the dollars, which we have). Well, I do feel there is cost in having fewer ABs for the triumverate. I am inclined to think there is a working plan to trade either Roberts or Winn, if not this Winter, then in July. Both are logical choices, as we have both corner OF positions covered with the three young guys.
But, truly, that is a luxury. We don't absolutely need the salary relief. We can play them all year if we choose. To me it seems short sighted. I would love to be in on the discussions and know what the thinking is. My complete ignorance of those discussions does not, however, make my ideas superior - no matter how many people agree with them.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 6:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Additionally, my personal opinion on this is that I want this team to start setting up a foundation for the future. In other words, I don't want another 35-year-old signed to a two or three year deal, I want to see Sabean somehow come up with a player or two that can give a better foundation for the future, and maybe even contribute to the here and now. This is not an attack of what Sabes has or hasn't done, it's simply what I want to see happen that will make me happy.
by JRPhillips on Dec 20, 2007 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
SP: excellent with more on the way
RP: underperformed last year, but looking stronger in '08 with many promising RP arms now in AA, some in AAA.
OF: set for the forseeable future, a fast, above average OF in both D and O.
C: Will need one in '10 if not in '09.
IF: This clearly is the problem. But we have one IF, Frandsen, probably for 2b. SS should not be too hard and we have a few quick and defensively good SSs in the system. 1b - we will see if Ort is even a partial answer - and we should know by the trading deadline. 1b and 3b continue to be major holes. B ut if Frandsen plays 3b well this year, Velez may go to 2b, so we are not totally without solutions.
SUMMARY: We are probably an 81-88 win team next year. (Yes, we're screwed if Az wins 100). Two average bats for 1b and 3b, push us over 90 wins for '08 and '09. To exceed 100 wins, we have to significantly upgrade C, 1b, 3b, maybe SS and the bench. This is not extremely likely by '09, but it is not out of the question.
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by marcello on Dec 20, 2007 8:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 11:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Oh, and your "clearly showed" line is 100% misleading. Were you referencing this post:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2007/12/19/173653/62/78#78
If so, it is pretty clearly stated that Rowand is better only if he hits like he did last year when he had the benefit of a BA spike. You're welcome to believe he will, I am skeptical. By the way, if we had scored 25 more runs last year, we still would have had the 4th worst offense in baseball.
Lastly, here is something I thought was interesting. Go here:
6 of the top 10 run scoring teams made the playoffs. 1 of the bottom 10 did the same and there were almost universally considered to be very lucky to have done so.
by marcello on Dec 21, 2007 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Rounding out the bottom 4 offenses (2007):
Nationals - best 8 hitters all under 30, and they swapped Church for Milledge
Royals - Terrible - but they have guys under 30 at least that are decent.
Pirates - Well, they bad. But they have 3 guys who project to be better than the best hitter on the Giants:
Jason Bay .265 .361 .478
Josh Phelps .292 .352 .483
Adam LaRoche .272 .348 .492
(to be fair, you have to platoon Phelps and LaRoche)
by zenbitz on Dec 21, 2007 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Why are Zips projections the best basis to compare us with P'burgh? Or any other team? (I don't have them, so I can't look and compare). But all of Roberts/DAvis, Frandsen, Winn, Rowand, Durham, Schirholtz/Ort have the potential for high OBP and decent slugging. Some will exceed, some meet, and some fall below their career (or last year) numbers
If you start out with the belief the Giants will do poorly scoring runs, there is plenty of evidence to pick and choose from. But to say they are likely to be the worst, is to be totally critical and not a bit analytical.
Even if you'd compared the 10 players on each team who'd get the most ABs (and I would be interested in seeing that), while it would be interesting, it is still only one analysis. To pick one and say, this proves my point is fallacious.
That being said, I think projections are interesting. After all, that is what i - and all of us - are doing. I don't really know how Zips works, or what their assumptions or methodology are. What I have tried to do is look at factors that are likely to change a players performance (Roberts not being injured, for example).
I still have confidence in the intuitive assessment, which basically says a healthy OF (as currently constituted) will perform about as well as last year's OF (with its part-time Bonds + Linden + injured Roberts). C will be about the same. The IF can hardly get worse. 1b + Frandsen already looks better. Omar, who improved in the 2d half is likely to produce to his 2d half level. Either Durham produces or he doesn't play.
Those are my assumptions. Yours are what? (I don't mean that in a snarky way. I mean for you to state them so they can be discussed). I have tried to get beyond the knee jerk that minus Bonds we are doomed. And, I think, once you get beyond that, and look at who is gone and who is healed, and who is added, things look a little better. Not hugely better, just a little. And part of that is saying I don't think we will have an '08 with 4 IFs hitting 250 and one at 220.
by allfrank on Dec 21, 2007 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Players over the age of about 28 get worse, as a group, from one season to the next. Players over the age of about 33 get a lot worse. The point is that Sabean habitually tries to build atop a structure that's in the process of collapsing underneath him.
by Evan on Dec 21, 2007 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Those are not totally unreasonable assumptions... probably the most optimistic is that Rowand will repeat his 2007, which makes the OF breakeven over 2007.
The point is - you asked for evidence that the Giants have a shot to have the worst offense in baseball in 2008. So, I figured a reasonable guess would be to take the 4 worst offenses in 2007 and see if they would be better or worse.
The age part (which you, like Brian Sabean, don't appear to appreciate) is trying to make the point that younger guys are more likely to break out, while older guys (i.e, Durham, Vizquel, Winn, Aurilia are likely to simply fall off the map). In retrospect, that is somewhat double counting since age is included in the projection... but I think I would be more optimistic if I had 4 29 year olds projected to hit .270/.320/.410 than 4 35 year olds with the same projection.
As for "why projections" - look it just a guess at what they will do this year, but it's a better guess ON AVERAGE than anyone just eyeballing the stats. If it makes you feel better - pretend it's me eyeballing it, not a fancy computer program spitting it out.
by zenbitz on Dec 21, 2007 12:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by zenbitz on Dec 21, 2007 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
Here's a start: "Batting cleanup, Bengie Molina."
by tobias on Dec 21, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 21, 2007 12:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by JRPhillips on Dec 23, 2007 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts breaking from third base!
by victor frankenstein on Dec 20, 2007 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
To be clear: Sabean should be fired for letting things get this bad in the first place.
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 20, 2007 8:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But stop gaps and filler is killing me. Letting vets play out thier contract in quite suckitude is killing me. Let a prospect play. Why sign Aurilia, Durham, Feliz and Klesko all in one year, when you already have Niekro and Sweeney and Fransden? And who hit the best out of the whole group? Why the hell would you signs so many backup corner infielders during the offseason? Why would you sign so many CFers? Why does Sabean seem to dislike his own draft and prefer 5-7 hitters from other teams? And why does management send out a Blownitez, Durham or a Finley or an Alfatso when a prospect is struggling to get regular at bats, the vet is clearly struggling, and it would be useful to evaluate players for the next year?
I don't care if the team is younger. When Sabean said that, he was setting up his own strawman. He could cut ties to Finley or Alou and blam, the team is younger. But the Fringe wanted him to change his approach, not the mean age. To give a chance to people with potential, not Sweeney or Vizcaino.
{discalimer: except for the two players, where i've modified their names, i didn't mind the players of signings individually. the overall strategy gets to me.}
by kennv on Dec 20, 2007 2:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
If you recall last year the majority of the board thought it was a good idea to resign Durham, especially based on his 06 numbers and I have to admit I was one of them, but his numbers went south with the swallows and they never returned to Capistrano. Everyone seemed to be excited to have Richie back, especially after his year in Cincy...honestly I thought, eh...whose else is out there. I did think Sabean or mgmt. screwed up by passing up the draft pick for Tucker, but I didn't say anything...so sue me! Same thing for Vlad...bad move.
To say that Frandsen and Schierholtz are not really prospects sounds not only presumptuous, but hyperbole gone wild. Frandsen had less than 2 full seasons in the minors (226 games 900+ abs). Landsford may get his full potential from him. Schierholtz I think (maybe I'm showing a little of my own hyperbole here) he's going to surprise a lot of folks. I can see a .300 avg. 20/80.
In conclusion I feel Peter and Larry have had too much say in the actual player movement and development...stick to marketing folks that maybe your strong suit. Peter especially has made some bonehead comments to the press regarding Baker and Bonds...sheesh shut up already.
by Buzzword on Dec 20, 2007 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by rxmeister on Dec 20, 2007 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
by allfrank on Dec 20, 2007 11:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
But, in Grant's Dan Ortmeier thread, I let loose a diatribe directed at Sabean for the direction that this off-season has gone so far. I realize that I shouldn't judge until it is over (or pretty much over). But this with what has already happened this off-season and with what we've been hearing most recently, it just made me frustrated to no end.
So, if you could make the insane, conciliatory optimist who is very willing to give the benefit of the doubt take the time to write up a diatribe against Sabean, well, let's just say that I understand exactly how the "lunatic fringe" feels.
by thehavenot on Dec 21, 2007 10:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Lunatic Fringe = Broken Record
What I see a lot of poster's do is complain in place of understand. or in place of analyze. I don't think Sabean is incompetent. He may have been slow in responding to the changes in baseball, but I think he has good ideas and is a pretty good judge of talent. So, particularly when he says they are looking for 1b and 3b, I believe him. I have done some research and know there aren't a lot of guys out there. And particularly given how he does things, his options are limited. So I am looking forward to see what he does and what direction the team is going in
by allfrank on Dec 21, 2007 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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