Help me, I've lost my corners

by wcovington on Dec 18, 2007 9:30 PM PST Comment 45 comments

It's gotten so night after night I imagine every trade, and I still can't imagine the third and fourth spots in "your" 2008 SF Giants batting order. If it's Bengie and Ray Ray or Randy and Bengie, will I have to give up my season tickets? If they try to squeeze Rowand into the four spot, will we destroy a useful piece of the puzzle?

Konerko is the only guy I've heard mentioned that might fill #4. And please do not suggest Nate or Ort -- I want them to play, but I'm talking a centerpiece.

So I'm asking you, my brothers and sisters in pain, WHO can you realistically see filling the four spot, and how would you get him here?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Hate to be the Larry Baer of bad news brother but when Botchy and Sabean are both ALREADY saying Molina will bat 4th this year,well the writing is more than on the wall.

Sagundase....DAJAUNEE QUEEPEY!!!! (proud adopter of Mr. Kruk and Sir Kuip)

by iNOeverything on Dec 18, 2007 9:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

I hate to say it, but Lowry for Duncan still makes sense to me, and could give us:

Rowand
Duncan
Molina

Winn
Duncan
Rowand

This would give us the lefthanded bat we need, assuming Duncan could make the move to first (and why not, he's absolutely brutal in left), and might not be terribly unrealistic. Maybe the Giants have to throw in a prospect too, or maybe it works straight up, but I really think this would make a lot of sense for us, and could help the Cardinals out too. Now that they've traded Edmonds, they might even want one of our surplus OFs.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 18, 2007 9:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

yes, it gives us the lefthanded bat we need. the six righthanded bats, on the other hand...

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Dec 18, 2007 10:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

hey, you've gotta start somewhere, right? We sure as hell won't contend next year, but at least Duncan would be a young 1B with some upside, if he improves against lefties, and a worst case scenario as a half of a platoon.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 18, 2007 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Is anyone else weirded out by the fact that you don't see Bonds as the no. 4 hitter this year?

Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 6:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

For nostalgia's sake: Molina should bat 3rd!!!

by zenbitz on Dec 19, 2007 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

God this is sad. Who would've thought we couldn't even get Sexson to provide at least a tiny little bit of fear in our cleanup spot?

by m34josh on Dec 18, 2007 9:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Im still hoping that we get Sexson from Seattle for Ray + prospect.
Then somehow get a #3 hitter for Lowry, hopefully Encarnacion from the Reds. That would give us a lineup that looks like this:

Lewis/Davis
Winn/Nasty Nate
Encarnacion
Sexson
Rowand
Molina
Fransden
Vizquel

Rotation:
Cain
Zito
Lincecum
Coreia
Sanchez/Misch/Scrap Heep

That would be a huge upgrade then what we have now and that lineup would be productive. You would still maintain an above average rotation. A boy can dream right?

Matt Williams....My Hero!!!

by ACgiant87 on Dec 18, 2007 10:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

who do I have to drug for that? Lets get it done!!

by krazybalr on Dec 18, 2007 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Okay, I know this will never happen in a million, billion years, but why can't Sabean try to put together a respectable lineup while still looking to the future? I would like Encarnacion and Nick Johnson to man the corners, but I can't see us having enough pieces to trade for both, so the best scenario I can come up with is:

Trade Fred Lewis and maybe a low-level pitching prospect and maybe even Ray-Ray with cash for Joe Crede. Hear me out now. Fred Lewis as of right now has nothing to prove in AAA (maybe improve defensively) so he's just gonna rot on the bench. Joe Crede is NOT Feliz. He hit over 40 homers once, Feliz never had that kind of potential. Even if Crede can recover some of that magic, there's potential to either sign him to a decent contract, or trade him at the deadline and get a prospect in return. That's forward thinking, low-risk, possible high reward. The same with Nick Johnson. Wait till ST to see if Johnson is healthy and then trade a pitching, like say, Henessey and Pat Misch (Ray Ray and cash) for him. Then, finally, trade Randy Winn to whomever will give up a prospect--someone like Brent Lillibridge in Atlanta. Guaranteed that if we don't move Winn, Nate will not see ABs in 2008, which sucks big time.

Lineup:

LF Dave Roberts (L)/Rajai Davis
2B Kevin Frandsen
CF Aaron Rowand
1B Nick Johnson (L)
3B Joe Crede
RF Nate Schierholtz (L)
C Benji Molina
SS Omar Vizquel (S)

Bench:

OF/1B Dan Ortmeir
IF Rich Aurilia
IF Ivan Ochoa
C Eliezer Alfonze

Rotation:

Matt Cain
Barry Zito (L)
Tim Lincecum
Noah Lowry (L)
Kevin Correia

Bullpen:

Steve Kline (L)
Erik Threets (L)/Jose Capellan (L)
Ryan Messenger
Vinnie Chulk
Tyler Walker
(Japanese FA)
Brian Wilson

In AAA, we can still have Jonathan Sanchez, Nick Pereira, a SS prospect in Lillibridge to take over in 2009, Velez and Bowker and we can go into 2008 with better options in the free agent market to improve our offense, bullpen, or rotation

Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Dec 18, 2007 10:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Joe Crede hit over 40 homers once? Baseball Ref says he hit 30 in 2006, but that's the most I saw.

by raisingcain on Dec 18, 2007 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Oops, by bad. I meant 30 homers, and Feliz never had that potential! (yeah, doesn't sound as convincing now). But Crede has had two seasons of OPS over 800 and Feliz never had one and probably never will.

Errata: Eliezer Alfonzo

Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Dec 18, 2007 11:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

I was right there with you until I read the words, "why can't Sabean...".

by tobias on Dec 20, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

So, exactly why is Cinci going to trade Encarnacion? And remind me again, who will they plug into the 3b spot?

by allfrank on Dec 18, 2007 11:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

The Reds would play Jeff Keppinger if they traded Encarnacion. He would probably be a downgrade, but the Reds might trade Encarnacion to get a starting pitcher. They're on the fringes of contention, so Sanchez might be too much of a project for them. If they don't like Lowry -- and who knows if they do -- they probably wouldn't consider a deal. But a deal is possible.

by Grant on Dec 19, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Which Encarnacion is that? Juan?

Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 6:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

that has been my dream this offseason. that would please me very much

zito 7 strait cy youngs

by giantsin2067 on Dec 18, 2007 10:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

I am going to ignore the "realistic" part of the request and just imagine this is another "post your make-beleive line-ups." or a my 2 cents.

Roberts LF
Fransden 2B
Teahen 3B (Winn and Sanchez to KC. maybe a misch? or a Lowry)
Sexson 1B (Durham)
Rowand CF
Schierholtz RF
Molina C
Vizquel SS
Cain, Lincecum, Zito, Lowry, Correia

Wilson, Walker, Henn, Kline, Threets, Messie
Ort, Davis, Lewis, Aurilia, Notgardo

by kennv on Dec 18, 2007 10:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

teahen would be great, he went to my college

by Giant Voodoo on Dec 18, 2007 11:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

He's a good guy, too. He was a freakin' Dodger fan, though.

Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Dec 19, 2007 6:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

not pat, I'll misch him so much.

also, to get teahen, it'll take a lot more than just that.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 18, 2007 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

if Lowry gets Encarnacion... and the Value of Dirt>Lowry... and KC could use an OF veteran of Winns skills (made that up after looking at their "depth chart")... and you add in another potential starter innings eater.... it almost seems reasonable to.

but yeah, I will totally concede that i might take more to get Teahen. But KC is still loaded with guys with 3B/1B experience crammed into 4 lineup spot (the above +DH and RF), and I hope that BS is kicking some tires. Since w-cov asked for a 3-4 selection i picked Teahen as the best candidate for being ready to take the 3 spot.

by kennv on Dec 19, 2007 5:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Its gunna be Feliz starting every day at third base once again and I'm gunna cry.

"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Dec 18, 2007 11:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Lewis/Davis LF
Frandsen 2B
Winn RF
Johnson/Sexson 1B
Rowand CF
Encarnacion 3B
Molina C
Omar SS

Could potentially be a decent offense, although not one I'd be thrilled about.

I think going after Encarnacion at 3B might be the best option at this point, if CIN is still willing to deal him. Lowry or Sanchez, depending on who interests them more.

Frandsen for 3B (til July 08)

by NeifiChicken on Dec 19, 2007 12:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

I think it was Roger who told us that Nick Johnson was very unlikely to play again, so I figure he's out of the picture. I'm no big Sexson fan, but if Seattle would be willing to swap two years of their white elephant (Sexson) for one year of ours (Durham) I'd be willing to give that a try. I don't think we'd get anything for Durham in a straight trade anyway.

I'd take a shot on Encarnacion, but I wouldn't give up Sanchez for him, and I don't think the Reds would take Lowry instead. Maybe Lowry and Lewis? Or Lowry and Sosa?

If Atlanta is really wanting an OF, I'd trade them Lewis, Winn, or Roberts...mostly to clear roster space. If Lillibridge came back to us in that deal, and if he's still a SS, so much the better.

So, given that, I'm hoping for (but not expecting):

LF-Winn (assuming it's Roberts to Atl)
2B-Frandsen
CF-Rowand
1B-Sexson (assuing Durham to Sea)
RF-Schierholtz
C-Molina
3B-Encaracion (assuming Lowry/Lewis to Cin)
SS-Vizquel

backups:
1B/OF-Ortmeier
2B/OF-Velez
C-E. Alfonzo
1B/3B-Aurilia
??Leone or Lewis/Roberts if not traded

SP
Cain
Lincecum
Zito
Correia
Misch (Sancez in AAA to ready as a starter)

RP
Wilson
Threets (LOOGY)
Hennessey (unless part of a trade)
Messenger
Kline (unless part of a trade)
Walker
Ortiz/Chulk/BAnderson/Sadler/??

My team could use an upgrade at RP.

I'd also give John Bowker some time at 1B in Fresno this year, just in case. He's a true lefty, he's 6'2", he's a power hitter. He sure sounds like an archetype at 1B.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 19, 2007 6:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Lyle,
Sexson has only one year left on his contract. It's one of the reasons that would make this swap so good for the Giants. Clears a spot for Frannie,fills a spot ffor the G's. Even without the salary pickup by the M's. The Giants have a need for a 1B, potential #4 hitter. Even if he sucks, it's only one year.

Richie Sexson 1b
4 years/$50M (2005-08)$6M signing bonus
05:$4.5M, 06:$11.5M, 07:$14M, 08:$14M
signed as a free agent 12/04
source:Cot's_Seattle Mariners

I like the idea of Bowker at 1B. With the "glut" of marginal OF in the the SF system, what could it hurt. I do love me some LH first baseman. Only downside is that the LH hitters, not named BLB, struggle in the Phone Booth. Worth a shot though.

I could live with that roster. I did not see Davis on your list. Where did he go ?

My adopted son Matt Downs. Because face it, everybody else was already taken by the time I got here.

by nvsfg on Dec 19, 2007 7:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, NV!

Even better! I thought I'd heard that we'd be trading Ray with one year left for Richie with 2 years left, so my bad. If that makes Ray slightly less attractive to the M's, I'd be persuaded to sweeten the deal a little.

The Bowker idea was just a response to Sabean's signing of Randy Winn II, aka Aaron Rowand. With the glut of OF, I'm looking for options for Nate and John. Nate's a righty, but John is a lefty and is limited to LF only, defensively, so he seemed like a prime candidate to move.

Davis completely slipped my mind! That's what happens when you have too many CF's. He too seems superfluous now, although given Natto's comic strip, maybe he's just "fluous."

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 19, 2007 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

seems like the broussard trade would significantly reduce the liklihood of seattle dealing sexon. i know they could probably put ibanez at 1st, dh vidro, and put ray ray at 2nd, but wouldnt they rather have sexon's bat than durham's? i love the idea though

by sam23 on Dec 19, 2007 5:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Lyle, moving Roberts back east is very possible, as the Braves were interested in him prior to the Winter Meetings.

I am intrigued at Schulman's piece in the Chron today, wherein he says that the Mariners shopped Adrian Beltre at the Winter Meetings for pitching. Now, if they get Carlos Silva as a FA pickup today or tomorrow, then this may be moot. But if the Mariners lose out on Silva, and they were interested before in moving Beltre, and already want to move Sexson, then shouldn't the Giants at least "kick the tires" on moving Lowry and even Sanchez along with Durham north to get both corners filled?

The Giants will have in-house options to fill 1B long-term in the coming years, so picking up Sexson's contract for a possible rebound year doesn't bother me at all. They are not so well set at 3B, so getting Beltre for a while, even if they have to overpay in pitching now doesn't bother me either. They could have a middle order with Rowand, Beltre, Sexson, and Molina, and still have a rotation of Zito/Cain/Lincecum/Correia/Misch. Best of all, they would still have room for Schierholtz, Davis, and Ortmeier to get playing time especially if they moved either Roberts or Lewis for relief pitching help.

by Buck Henry on Dec 19, 2007 10:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Well, I guess the Silva deal makes that less likely, but thanks for the encouraging words, Buck!

By the way, you're a comedic genius; I love your work.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 6:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

What about trading Henny to the A's for Dan Johnson? .232/.349/.418 with 18 HR's. He's basically Pedro Feliz with a lot more walks.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 19, 2007 9:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

...with a lot more walks?

So he's not like Pedro at all?

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 19, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

.232/18 HR's?

That's not like Pedro?

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 19, 2007 11:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: .232/18 HR's?

Pedro no walk

Greg

by Gob on Dec 19, 2007 12:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: .232/18 HR's?

ZIPS seems to like Dan Johnson, .267/.369/.462.

I am not sure if he is capable of doing that, but something close would definitely be an upgrade from what we have seen in a while.

Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Welcome Back!

by sfgreg on Dec 19, 2007 12:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: .232/18 HR's?

That seems like a strange projection to me, he's never had an OBP or SLG that high in his career (and only once had an average that high)

by GiantFan on Dec 20, 2007 1:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

That's what I said. Johnson is Pedro with a lot more walks.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 19, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Exactly

id love to see dan on this side of the bay, and it makes sense since i think he's only going to get fewer ab's the next couple years with their slew of talented of/1b/dh types. that said i dont know if beane and sabes will work together on a deal like that or if we have anything the a's would like as they are also in a rebuild mode, but they are desperate for a young starter who could jump right into the rotation. sanchez? seems like overpaying a bit. sosa + henn? its a major stretch here but what if we were willing to take on chavez's contract for some prospects not named villlona as well? sanchez, hennessey, sosa,+prospect for chavez, johnson. nah, nevermind we dont have enough to get that deal done.

by sam23 on Dec 19, 2007 5:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No, Doc

See, it's like saying Pamela Anderson is a lot like Madame Curie, but with a lot more...chest. The difference is too significant to allow comparison, imho.

Also trying to be semi-funny. sorry.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Dec 20, 2007 6:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

No thanks, Pedro Feliz with a lot more walks & a lot less defense is not somebody i'm be interested in, especially not giving up a valuable player to get him.

As a guide, last season, he finished 26 out of 33 1B (with over 300 plate appearances) in OPS and the season before he finished 32 out of 35. Why would we want to trade for one of the worst 1B in the majors the last 2 seasons?

by GiantFan on Dec 20, 2007 1:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I Don't Know

Maybe because he's still better than what we've had for the last couple of seasons and better than what we have now?

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 20, 2007 7:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I Don't Know

That may be true, but is upgrading from the worst 1B in the majors to just one of the worst worth giving up a valuable player for? In my opinion, no, we need decent players, not just slightly less worse ones.

You could probably say the same thing about Clark, and he wouldn't cost any players in return, but does that mean we should sign him? I'm all for low risk moves, and if we could get him for basically nothing, he'd be worth a shot, but i don't see any logic in giving up anything worthwhile for him.

by GiantFan on Dec 20, 2007 7:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I Don't Know

Hope we can do better. I think we both agree on that.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 20, 2007 8:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Seek trades with teams that are "motivated sellers" and the Giants could dump their own bad contracts in the process (Roberts, Durham, Aurilia).

Toronto Blue Jays: Troy Glaus (3B) & Seattle Mariners: Richie Sexson (1B) are solutions to the corner IF problem, the 3/4 in the line-up problem, and only tied up for one more year. The Giants might need to throw in a decent pitcher like Hennessey, Sanchez or Misch to land Glaus, but again, the Jays would certainly take back salary. The Jays also need a back-up catcher, and the Giants happen to have an extra back up catcher.

How about:

2B Velez
LF Winn
3B Glaus
1B Sexson
CF Rowand
C Molina
RF Scheirholtz
SS Vizquel

IF Frandsen
1B/OF Ortmeier or Neikro
OF Davis
OF Lewis
C Alphonszo/Rodriguez

Let the youngsters battle it out for an OF spot, and battle it out for 2B!

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Dec 19, 2007 5:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Help me, I've lost my corners

Thank you all for your thoughts; you've given me some new players to envision. Duncan, for instance, is not someone I'd considered, but he'd help, and at the right price. I don't think KC is ready to dump Teahen, but again a good thought. I don't like Sexson -- especially at his price. Encarnacion and Votto might work at the right price. But my CURRENT favorite dream is still Konerko and Crede, because Konerko is legit for the #4, and if Crede comes back at all, he will be a huge plus after Pedro. And I think we are a very good fit with the WhiteSox (re: Lowry, Roberts, Durham + $ + another secondary prospect arm). It fills needs for the Sox; it fills our needs, both in the order and the corners; clears space for our younger guys; keeps Frnadsen at 2b; allows Winn to bat third (and Rowand 5th where he belongs). With three ex-Sox we're almost WS bound (just kidding). Of course, Konerko is the key, but if the M's can give Silva that kind of money geez we should be able to get value for Noah (or Sanchez). Anyway, a guy can dream. . .

Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Dec 20, 2007 6:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs