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Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

Riffing

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 11, 2007 1:51 PM PST in News

I was trying to do an updated mock roster, but it had too many stupid ideas that I'd have to explain. I'll have to break the stupid ideas up in chunks. For now, I'll just give a stupid idea sample. I'll also include a coupon with the sample for 20% off my next stupid idea:

Akinori Iwamura and Ben Zobrist for Fred Lewis and Brad Hennessey.

Iwamura didn't hit for power at all, but he got on base at a good clip, and he definitely showed a lot more power in Japan. He's a lefty, so that power probably wouldn't show up as home run power in Mays Field, but we could hope for doubles power to go along with the on-base skillz.

Zobrist, 27, is a slick-fielding shortstop with a career .316/.427/.453 minor league line, but he fell off the depth charts because of 97 awful ML at-bats last year. He's never had an OBP below .400 in the minors, he can back up Vizquel this year, he would give depth at one of the organization's barren positions, and he could be in the mix for a 2009 job. He's my most affordable white whale; if he could hit .280/.360/.390 in the majors, he'd be a really nice player to have on a rebuilding team.

The Rays are looking for another outfielder after the Delmon Young trade, though they probably don't want to give up a lot of chips for proven folks like Jason Bay and Josh Hamilton.

The Giants would fill a lineup spot without giving up a starting pitcher, which would allow them to fill more holes with Sanchez/Lowry.

Flame away.

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Comments

Re: Riffing

I would do that trade in a nanosecond. I like Fred Lewis, but he'd be one less face in a packed auditorium full of outfielders.

I'd rather trade Roberts, but I imagine Lewis is more attractive since he's not, you know, a hundred.

I'm a Giants fan because my dad realized at a very young age that the Phillies suck.

by oneflapdown on Dec 11, 2007 1:52 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Agreed. Just like you, my only reservation is the irrational hope that such a trade could be done with Dave Roberts instead.

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Dec 11, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Hell,
I'll throw Roberts in with Lewis & Hennessey, eat half of Robert's contract...and still do it in a nanosecond.

by Scottsdale on Dec 11, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I too would pull the trigger on that trade, although I think if the roster as currently constructed actually takes the field next year Lewis might be the only guy on the team with 20 homer power. Think about it, he probably can't hit 20, but it's a toss up between him and Ort for power on a powerless team.

The only potential trade partner for Dave Roberts would be a playoff contender who wants a genuine base stealer. Red Sox, Yanks, Tigers, etc. Kind of like the role he played in the first Red Sox championship of this millenium. We would not get shit in return, but it would clear money/roster space.

lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 11, 2007 2:30 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'd like to think Frandsen has 20 HR power

by Scottsdale on Dec 11, 2007 2:48 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Not that I think of either of them as power hitters, but Winn and Molina have both hovered around the 20 HR mark at times.

Also, Schierholtz showed some pop in the minors.

And let's not forget Ray-Ray, if he can return to form and is still on the team.

Again, I agree that the situation is bleak, but to call Lewis, Ortmeier and Frandsen our only 20 HR potential guys is kind of silly. Winn, Molina, and Ray-Ray have showed this kind of power at the MLB level. Why ignore them?

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Dec 11, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Schierholtz strikes me as the team's only real power prospect. He's managed an ISO near or above .200 at every level in the minors, and has never been old for his level. Ortmeier has been closer to .150 and a bit old most years, Lewis about the same 'til 2007 in AAA, and Frandsen was always a .100-ISO guy. None is likely to be much of a threat, but I'd rate their power potential as Schierholtz > Lewis > Ortmeier >>> Frandsen.

by wcw on Dec 11, 2007 3:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

In 593 ab's Winn hit 14 homers.
Ray-Ray has put up good power numbers in some seasons, but the 27 two years ago was a fluke. He caught fire in the second half.
Schierholtz did get sent down last year to work on his power, and appaerently had some results at Fresno, but that has yet to translate to the big leagues. I think he shows a lot of promise, especially with his gap-to-gap approach.
Bengie had arguably his best year hitting 19 long balls. I think it possible that he hits better in the N.L., so maybe this could happen again. For some reason though, I have some reservations.
Then you look at Fred, who only hit three long balls, but he didn't get many opportunities, and still this was his first real opportunity in the big leagues, platooning with Bonds, which isn't ideal. Something about his build and his minor league numbers are promising.

If we were the A's and I'm glad we're not, guys like Frandsen, Lewis, amd Ort would have all gotten chances years earlier. There is something to be said for allowing a player to show what he's got at the ML level, and I hope we move towards that philosophy. Imagine it, if we could grow guys the way the A's and Marlins do, but actually have a large enough market to keep them around maybe we'd actually win something. Irritating.

lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 11, 2007 6:19 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'd like to think of Frandsen like with giant eagles wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk!

by mxmob33 on Dec 11, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

That movie is much more quotable than I gave it credit for when I first saw it.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 11, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I like skinny pancakes

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Dec 11, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I like to picture my Frandsen in a Tuxedo T-shirt, cuz it says Im formal, but I like to party, cuz I like to party so I like my Frandsen to party.

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Dec 11, 2007 3:40 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I would stand up and cheer if this trade happened. We might have to kick in a little more, though, as the Rays are planning for Iwamura to be their second baseman.

by Dan from NM on Dec 11, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

give them Durham!

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 11, 2007 3:24 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Yes ! Please do ! (polite version of +1)

My adopted son Matt Downs. He can hit a little.

by nvsfg on Dec 11, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

could this possibly happen for just Lewis? I feel like that's a Lowry or Sanchez kind of return.

I'd love to have both these guys.

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 11, 2007 2:04 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I agree that the Rays would want more than just Lewis for Iwamura and Zobrist. Would we want to include Velez? Would they prefer a Sadler or Valdez?

But if Lewis goes to the Yankees for Hideki Matsui, then I guess this is out the window.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 11, 2007 2:06 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I edited it to throw in Hennessey. I thought I might be low-balling the deal, but I also thought y'all would make more fuss about giving up Lewis.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 11, 2007 2:08 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

It seems like every potential deal this offseason is strangely aimed at getting more outfielders, hence the lack of fuss about giving one back.

my cousin and i got noah lowry's autograph after he came out of a porta-potty. he was nice about it.

by hubert on Dec 11, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Exactly. I want a new 3B and 1B for Christmas, and if it means giving up an outfielder- even one that I like as much as Lewis- I'll live with it.

And I'd still do the deal with Hennessey included. My finger would linger a little longer on the trigger, but I think I'd still do it.

I'm a Giants fan because my dad realized at a very young age that the Phillies suck.

by oneflapdown on Dec 11, 2007 2:15 PM PST up reply actions

middle aged...

rookies just don't do it for us, I guess.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Dec 11, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Yeah whatever. No complaints here.

But I like Hennessey and Lewis as a sweetner with Lowry for Encarnacion and Hamilton.

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Dec 11, 2007 2:15 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'm with you, I don't mind this deal either way. I would rather use those pieces to try and get the Yanks to throw in Betemit if we are still chasing Matsui.

Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Welcome Back!

by sfgreg on Dec 11, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Now their's a thought. While trading for a 10th OF, why not get a 3B too, which is a position of need . Makes to much sense though, Sabean would never do it.

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Dec 11, 2007 2:27 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah that's not happening

More like Lowry + Sanchez + Hennesey and I still doubt it gets done.

by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Dec 11, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

2007 San Francisco Giants: The only team in MLB history to have a roster with more outfielders than pitchers.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 11, 2007 2:37 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Shit... Make that 2008 San Francisco Giants.

Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 11, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

When Sabean was recently on KNBR he said his starting OF today would consist of:

LF: Roberts/Davis
CF: Winn
RF: Schierholtz

So Lewis apparently is not in Sabean's plans. Iwamura has been told he will be TB's 2b regardless whether Longoria makes the club or not. Tampa Bay is looking for some veteran leadership on the team but at a discount price. Aurilia is in the final year of his deal with a base of $4.5M. Maybe some salary could be moved around to make acceptable to TB.

by wilriv21 on Dec 11, 2007 2:44 PM PST reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

I realize I'm living a pie in the sky life but shoudn't who starts be Bochy's call?

by RichH on Dec 11, 2007 3:14 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

Well, he can't start lewis if he's not on the 25 man roster.

I think given the rest, the starters are obvious.

by zenbitz on Dec 11, 2007 3:21 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

Rajai is more likely to see time in CF if Winn is also in the outfield.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 11, 2007 3:26 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

If veteran leadership is what they want, we have a boatload of it. And the bonus is that we'd probably pay most, if not all, of the salary on top of it. (Think, Durham, Roberts, Aurilia and any other crappy player we have on our roster right now).

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Dec 11, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

Roberts in left field.....

Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

by rotorueter on Dec 11, 2007 4:57 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

Sure, it's discouraging that he's not saying anything about Freddy. But maybe you guys are missing the most important detail: he's saying Nate could get a shot. Like a real shot. Like a 'here's the job, go out and make us proud' kind of shot. That's not the Sabean I know, but I'll keep the new guy.

To me, that kind of makes the whole lack of Lewis thing less of a problem. Because even though I like Lewis, I was much more terrified of Sabes' systemic distrust of youngsters. Him penciling Nate in for one starting OF spot speaks volumes that maybe, just maybe, we can be saved. Probably not, but maybe.

It's a bit like the old, "would you rather an angry or indifferent god" question. Sure, Sabes is probably blowing it by not giving Lewis a chance in LF. But at least he no longer seems to be completely uncaring about the role of youngsters on the team given his elevation of Schierholtz and, hopefully, Frandsen.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 12, 2007 12:02 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Sabean does not have Lewis in top 4 OF

I don't see how you can look at the purported chases of names like Matsui and Hall (Hall!), on top of the immovable masses of the Roberts and Winn contracts, and see anything but the old, Proven Veterans R Us idiot.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 6:57 AM PST up reply actions

hmm

Why always with the multipart trades? It's fun as fanboy cinema goes, but none too realistic, unless you're FL with Cabrera or MN with Santana.

I like both these names as targets, though I like Zobrist more: he plays a more demanding defensive position, his market value would seem vanishingly low, and I think he can actually hit okay for a SS. I'd probably angle for a Hennessey/Zobrist-plus-risky-high-ceiling-chaff deal, the chaff because Hennessey is a Proven Closer. Iwamura strikes me as having more market value, both because of his J-ball past and his high BABIP last season. I don't know how his defense is; if he's Feliz-like at third or plays an above-average second, I would be happy with a Lewis-Iwamura swap, though I doubt the Rays go for it.

Honestly, though, anything that doesn't smack of buy-high-sell-low I Am Not An Idiot But I Play One On TV works for me.

by wcw on Dec 11, 2007 2:45 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Grant your propsed trade is similar to the one I sugested a few days ago. I thought Sanchez for Iwamura would be fair for both teams. The Rays aren't looking to trade Iwamura if they don't have to. If they don't trade Iwamura they would probably move him to 2B when Longoria gets called up.

by Cainer on Dec 11, 2007 2:49 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I think that's a fair deal for both sides, Rays need some bullpen, got a surplus of SS types (two ahead of Zobrist), though I would note that they have a Fred Lewis type in the minors in Justin Ruggiano (20/20 last season, about same age). Still, gives them another option since they traded Dukes away too and Baldelli seems due to go on the DL at seemingly any moment, and Gomes looks like a DH type.

Sanchez is way too high a price for Iwamura, I would say pass on that deal.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Dec 11, 2007 3:07 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'd rather trade Sanchez for 3 years of Iwamura that costs $10MM then trade Sanchez for two years of Matsui that costs $26MM. Plus Iwamura plays solid D at 3B compared to Matsui's poor D in the outfield.

by Cainer on Dec 11, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions

Grant Is Legend

FADE IN. EXT. DAY.
THE NOT TOO DISTANT FUTURE.

GRANT: "My name is Grant. A virus has wiped out 6 billion people, and I am the last man on Earth. Yet I am still trying to find some hitting for the Giants. Or in this case, the Zombie Mutant Giants. What about Zombie Mutant Noah Lowry for Zombie Mutant Hideki Matsui? OK, I'll throw in a couple arms. Literally. Hello? Is anyone out there?"

Coming soon.

Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Dec 11, 2007 3:50 PM PST reply actions

Re: Grant Is Legend

"Hey, what ever happened to Ben Zobrist? Dead? He's still worth a look."

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 11, 2007 7:20 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Grant Is Legend

Is it bad that I've thought of this before? Like how much not having baseball to watch, or trades and offseason stuff to think about in a post-apocalyptic world? Because I frankly think that would annoy me more than the hordes of brain-hungry zombies.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 12, 2007 12:04 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Grant Is Legend

Actually, do ALL the dead come back to life?
"Grrrrr. In center field, Zombie Mutant Willie Mays! Brains. Braaaaaaaaaaains!"

Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Dec 12, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Grant Is Legend

Maybe they could eat Brian Sabean after some miscommunication.

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 11:00 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Grant Is Legend

CUT TO: EXT. NIGHT. MAYS FIELD.

BRIAN SABEAN runs for his life from a pack of MUTANT ZOMBIES in Giants Jerseys. LARRY BAER shuts the gate just before he reaches it.

SABEAN
"Help Hellllllllp!! They'll eat me before I can trade Tim Lincecum for Bernie Williams and a half-eaten Yankee Frank!"

THE ZOMBIES CATCH SABEAN. THEY KNOCK ON HIS HEAD.

ZOMBIES:
"Brains. Braaaaaaaaains! Brains?"

FINDING NOTHING WORTH EATING, THEY MOVE ON.

SABEAN:
"Hey!"

Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Dec 12, 2007 12:04 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'd make the deal too, but I get the feeling people are starting to underrate Fred Lewis a bit. A .379 OBP is nothing to sneeze at, even if the sample size is small. He can't hit lefties, but if the Giants can find the right platoon mate for him (Davis? Ortmeier? some grizzled veteran?), they could get above-average production from one of the outfield spots at a bargain price.

by Evan on Dec 11, 2007 5:03 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Ach-choo.

I mean, really.

Did you sneeze at Winn's .359/.391/.680 the 2nd half of 2005 because that was ~250 PAs compared to Lewis's ~175.

175 PAs is nothing. Nothing.

by zenbitz on Dec 11, 2007 5:42 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

Winn was 31 in 2005, and those numbers were way outside his established levels. Lewis was 26 in 2007, and his numbers were right in line with what he's always done. His MLE OBPs, per Baseball Prospectus:

.372
.340
.357

I have little doubt that he can give us a few Randy Winnish .285/.345/.425 seasons, or better if he's platooned. The real question about Lewis is whether he can develop Randy Winnish fielding prowess. That's what's going to make the difference between "perfectly acceptable stopgap" and "solid contributor to a good team."

by Evan on Dec 11, 2007 8:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

.379 is significantly higher than those numbers.

by zenbitz on Dec 12, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I agree, i think Lewis is underrated by a lot of people. He seems to have got lost in the crowd a bit, behind others, but i'm not sure why.

by GiantFan on Dec 12, 2007 3:02 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I like Lewis but his defense is about a step to a step & a half above Larry Herndon `s. It was a miracle Jack Clark lived to have a MLB career after playing right field next to Herndon. If Lewis stops doing things like missing his cut off man he would probably get a lot more playing time. I truly hope he does.

by daveinexile on Dec 12, 2007 9:46 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

If Fred hits for average,his OBP should be good. The guy can take a walk. But it appears to me that he strikes out too much to hit for much above .250 (although I realize he did with the Giants last season).

Freddie has nice potential, but for all his tools, he isn't a great fielder and has few baseball instincts. If he can field, hit for average and improve his power, he would be very good. But I will be a bit surprised if he is able to accomplish more than one of those three things.

by sharksrog on Dec 12, 2007 11:28 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

i love that deal but dont see tampa bay doing it. and how could you possible prefer the matsui trade over the iwamura one? as someone pointed out a few posts above iwamura is younger, cheaper, plays better d, and most importantly fills the gaping hole at third. zobrist would be a nice pickup too. i think the giants would have to replace hennessey with sanchez and i like lewis, but id still do it. pull that off, sign fukudome, deal roberts/hennessey/durham/ for a nick or dan johnson type at first and the offense goes from awful to simply bad.

by sam23 on Dec 11, 2007 5:26 PM PST reply actions

Fukudome is a Cub

From the Chicago Tribune

The Cubs signed Japanese outfielder Kosuke Fukudome to a four-year deal late Tuesday, outbidding San Diego and the White Sox to gain the services of their primary off-season target.

Terms of the deal were not immediately known, though it's believed to be $50-to-$56 million.

by sb on Dec 11, 2007 9:13 PM PST reply actions

Re: Fukudome is a Cub

I was kinda hoping the Giants would get Matsui, Fukudome and Iwamura so I could see more SF Giants caps on the subway. Yankees hats have always been the most common, even before Matsui and even when Ichiro was making a splash.

by sb on Dec 11, 2007 9:18 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Fukudome is a Cub

At least Matsui talks are still going.

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 11, 2007 9:21 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

I read that the White Sox to relieve thier "logjam" at third and get a lead-off outfielder. What would it take to get Josh Fields, or is he one of their "untouchables"
I'm know Roberts is enough, but maybe a pitcher or two would sweetn the deal.

by Zott on Dec 11, 2007 9:16 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Zobrist has a very cute and sweet wife (happened not meet her at the AFL last year), but Ben doesn't know how to take a walk - we have one of those to take Feliz's place - Schierholtz, who makes Pedro look like Eddie Yost.

Iwamura walks but k's a lot too, and his power is waiting for a visa

This is a Sabean Magowan deal - "a deal to make a deal"

The Gnts have painted themselves into a corner and the paint will not dry for years. It a conundrum and there's not any solution. They sold their soul to the BayBall devil and pay back is a bitch.

Just keep saying "Splash Hit" "Splashhit" over and over and you hear what it is.

by Glasscock on Dec 11, 2007 9:39 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Ben doesn't know how to take a walk

Are you thinking of the same Ben Zobrist? Check out his stats; it sure seems like he knows how to take a walk.

by Grant Brisbee on Dec 11, 2007 11:04 PM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

My "E" - Z's walk rate was adequate at the MLB level in '07, albeit much better at the Mi (your link before). I was recalling his AB's in April-MAy of '07, when he did not draw one walk in 63 AB's, so was sent down.

by Glasscock on Dec 12, 2007 9:57 AM PST up reply actions

Re: Riffing

aw. I thought this post was going to be about Lynyrd Skynyrd or Poison or something :(.

But I wholeheartedly agree on all points. I think we may need to throw in a pitcher of moderate quality to sweeten this deal though.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 11, 2007 11:40 PM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

I'd do that deal, but i'm not sure that the Rays would.

I'm higher on Hennessey & Lewis than most, and can't see us getting good value for either for some reason. OF and P are our positions of depth & so if we could trade from those to get a SS & 3B (positions of weakness) of similar ability then it'd be a good move

by GiantFan on Dec 12, 2007 2:55 AM PST reply actions

Re: Riffing

Probably no chance of the Rays being interested in Lewis now that they're going to sign Cliff Floyd as a FA to play RF and platoon with Gomes....

by aGIANTfan on Dec 13, 2007 10:18 AM PST reply actions

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