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The Case for Andruw Jones

I know, I know ... we should punt 2008, think about the long term, and play the kids. But playing the kids isn't going to be enough. This team is starved for talent and should be looking to bring in good players anywhere they can be found.

Signing a high-priced free agent on the wrong side of thirty makes sense to me only under the following conditions:

a) He has some marquee value.
b) He's not horrifically overpriced.
c) He fills an immediate need for the Giants, and thus can help make the next couple of years, which look to be bleak, a little more respectable.
d) He projects to still be a productive player two or three years down the road, when we might reasonably hope to have a contending team again.

Andruw Jones meets all four conditions, I think.

a) He's a former MVP, a perennial gold glove winner, and is in the postseason every year. That should make him famous enough to put butts in seats.

b) He is expected to sign for 5 years/$80 million, maybe less. I'll get into the math later, but as I see it this is substantially below the current free-agent market rates.

c) By "immediate need," I mean "someone to hit home runs." But though it may sound crazy, center field is a need as well. Although Sabean has been pathologically collecting center fielders , none of them is particularly good. Rajai Davis looks like a fine fielder but a marginal hitter. Fred Lewis is badly stretched at the position and can't hit lefties; the best role for him is as a platoon player in a corner. Roberts and Ortmeier obviously aren't solutions. Our best CF is Randy Winn, but he's not a good defensive player in center; at 33, he's probably headed downhill; and moreover, he's one of very few veterans on the roster who should have enough trade value to bring back a decent prospect.

d) Jones is 30, turning 31 early next season. He's one of the most durable players in the game, having been a regular for ten years and logging at least 154 games every single year. As a fielder, he's still exceptional. As a hitter, he's been up and down over the years, but generally quite good. His rotten 2007 is alarming -- but that rotten season is exactly what makes him affordable. I'm confident that that bad season was a fluke and that he'll be hitting .260 with a decent OBP and 30+ home runs for the next several years.

**

In 2007, Jones's component stats -- strikeout rate, walk rate, GB/LD/FB percentages -- were in their usual range, but the results weren't there. The first problem is that his batting average on balls in play was quite low, 30 points off his career level. This isn't really a concern; it will almost certainly come back up next year and he'll hit in the .260s again.

The other problem with his 2007 is more worrisome: he lost a lot of power. Specifically, although he was hitting as many fly balls as usual, his home run per fly ball rate dropped sharply, from an
established level of 21.1% down to 13.4%.

This is bad, but there's no particular reason to believe that it represents a real change in his ability. Spikes happen. Jim Thome's hr/fb rate took an even more precipitous dive in 2005; the next year, it was back in its normal range. Carlos Beltran had a bad season that year as well; after posting hr/fb rates of 17.6, 17.9, and 17.6, in 2005 he dropped to 8.8. The next year, he was at 21.1. ARod's hr/fb rates over the last five years have gone 25, 19, 26, 20, 27.

There is a potential physical explanation for Andruw's bad year: On May 27, he hyperextended his elbow making a catch, and it bothered him the rest of the season. We can also speculate that since he was in a well-hyped contract year, he was putting too much pressure on himself. There's no way to know exactly, but it seems far more likely that his bad season was a fluke than that a 30-year-old with a clean injury record and tons of natural talent suddenly went off the cliff and will no longer be the same player.

**

During his career -- including his early years as a part-timer, his awful 2007, everything -- Jones has averaged .263/.342/.497, creating 5.86 runs per 27 outs. Over the course of 150 games, that's 98 runs. Replacement level these days is in the neighborhood of 60-65 runs. So Jones is 35 runs better than replacement with the bat.

With the glove, he's not quite the marvel he once was, but he's still good. The Fielding Bible +/- system ranks him as the very best center fielder in the game, saving 20 runs or more above the level of the average CF. However, the other state-of-the-art defensive measurement, UZR, has him as almost exactly average. I don't know which of these is more correct (though I suspect it's the first one), but it seems reasonable to split the difference and call him 10 runs better than
average.

Altogether, then, that's at least 45 runs better than replacement level, or 4.5 wins. Per Tango's salary
calculator,
a fun little tool that factors in both inflation and expected decline in order to give a crude guess at a player's fair-market value, Jones could thus expect to receive $17-$19 million per season: four years for $75 million, five for $91, six for $106, in there somewhere. But because GMs overrate the importance of the most recent season, he's not going to get it.

*

The lesson of the Detroit Tigers' post-2003 turnaround is that it's not enough to draft & develop well or scoop up free talent or make sharp trades or sign expensive free agents. If you want to get from bad to good in a hurry, you have to do all of them at once.

This is one of the very rare opportunities to get a star free agent at a relative discount, and Sabean should go after it.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Jones could be the best signing of the offseason; he could also be the worst.  I think the main issue with him is not something that can be solved statistically.  I would hope the Giants would look at every single at bat of his and try to determine what exactly caused his precipitous decline this year.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Nov 24, 2007 9:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I say get Andruw.  For pretty much all the same reasons.  Most of the singings and trades should be over in the next three weeks.  Is that exciting?

by positiveuphemism on Nov 24, 2007 9:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
If the Giants sign Jones they would need to trade Winn. The young outfielders need the playing time. Maybe they package Winn with a pitching prospect and get a third-base prospect. A three year contract - I'd be good with that.

by RUSirius on Nov 24, 2007 10:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I'd be in favor of trading Winn. I'd like to see Andruw in center, a Roberts/Davis platoon in left, and a Lewis/Ortmeier platoon in right. By midseason, hopefully Roberts will have rebounded enough to be traded, Lewis will be playing well enough to take a corner, Schierholtz can be called up to take over the other corner, and Davis can slip into the fifth outfielder role.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
If we dealt Roberts AND Winn, I'd be on board. But we can't pay any of Winn's salary the next few years, and we need to actually get something in return. And the deal for Jones CANNOT be anywhere near Hunter's. That's a lot of IF's.

I think his problems hitting the ball were mechanical, but if Boras gets the Giants to outbid themselves again, I'll be pissed.

I would find a defensive OF with Davis and Jones particularly exciting.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Nov 24, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Hunter's contract (5/90M) would be a huge bargain for Jones. Anything 5 years or less would be an incredible deal, given the recent trend in FA signings.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Essentially half of Andruw's batting average drop came from his 30-point drop in BABIP.  He hit only .253 on balls in play, which as you point out is 30 points below his .283 career average on balls in play.

But if Andruw had batted .284 on balls in play, his overall season's average would have been .243, which is just over half the way back up to his .262 of the season before and to his career .263 mark.

Incidentally, when Andruw batted .262 in 2006 his BABIP was 10 points below his career average at .273.  And when he hit .263 in 2005, his BABIP was 40 points below his career average at just .243.  It may be that as Andruw is losing speed (perhaps both running speed and bat speed), his BABIP is declining.

If Andruw's decline in 2007 was indeed injury-related, I guess the question would be, can he stay healthy in the future?  The large number of games per season he has averaged in his career would seem to indicate that is still a good possibility.

Andruw's homers have dropped from 51 in 2005 to just 26 last season.  If he drought was heavily injury-related, I would expect his homers to have just made it over the fence and for him to have a lot of balls that fell just short of the fence.  In reality, most of his homers appeared to be well-struck, and he had very few warning track shots.

by sharksrog on Nov 24, 2007 10:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Andruw Jones
on contact batting average this year: 244. On contact slugging: 453

Over his career, on contact batting average: 268.
On contact slugging: 507.

On contact BA, from 2004-2006: 281.
On contact slugging, from 2004-2006: 569

On contact BA, 2006: 273
On contact sluggin, 2006: 575

Basically, as he got older, he started hitting the ball harder. Which is why his on contact numbers were on an upward curve. Which is why he was getting better results whenever he hit the ball. Except for 2007. In 2007, his on contact numbers fell below his career averages, and far below his averages from 2004-2006.

Yes, it is possible that he has suffered a permanent decline in his skills in 2007 that has resulted in him no longer hitting the ball hard.

Yes, it is possible that he went from hitting the ball very hard in 2006, well above his career averages, to weakly in 2007, below his career averages, due entirely to a permanent decline in his skills.

Yes, it is possible that he suffered a permanent and precipitous decline in skills in 1 year.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 10:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Andruw Jones
Looking at his hit charts, I had the impression that he has become more and more of a pull hitter as the years have gone by. This suggests a certain lack of flexibility in approach, I guess, but it probably does help him make harder contact. And pulling the ball is surely the right approach for a RH power hitter in AT&T field.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if you look at his on contact
numbers which I posted, you can see that for 2004-2006, he was getting better results when he hit the ball compared to the rest of the career.

His on contact slugging noticeably jumped.

Hitters like BLB, Thome, Ryan Howard, McGwire, Cust,  ie hitters who murder the ball, all have exceptional on contact numbers.

OTOH, weak slappy hitters like Neifi or Juan Pierre have pathetic on contact numbers.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 2:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

UGGH
Those on contact numbers are wrong.

Career on contact BA: 335
Career on contact SLG: 632

2004-2006 on contact BA: 334
2004-2006 on contact SLG: 679

2006 on contact BA: 337
2006 on contact SLG: 683

2007 on contact BA: 262
2007 on contact SLG: 487

by rfloh on Nov 25, 2007 1:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I do believe that the injury contributed to his poor 2007. On the other hand, you can't just pretend the injury never happened. If he got hurt, that negatively impacts his forecast for the future.

But his health record is about as clean as you can find for a 31-year-old ballplayer.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
"If Andruw's decline in 2007 was indeed injury-related, I guess the question would be, can he stay healthy in the future?  The large number of games per season he has averaged in his career would seem to indicate that is still a good possibility."

Also the type of injury seems to me to be a singular incident sort of injury (although those types of injuries tend to creep up as players age).

But the point made a few times here, that he's 30/31, seldom injured, has played in more than 150 games most of his career, reminds me of Ray D.  Rules change as bodies age and I think an injury-clear track record should be tempered with an examination of the player's off-season conditioning approach as he enters the 31+ age category.  A clean bill of health, and a history of resiliency and a hearty constitution are clearly important, but now I worry about off-season conditioning and a greater concern with condition for player's in AJones age category.

by kennv on Nov 24, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Very interesting analysis. A few initial thoughts:

--Players with broad offensive skills tend to age the best. Jones isn't a slam dunk in this case because he doesn't steal bases or hit for a high average. On the other hand, he does play a premium defensive position, an indication of speed.

--He just doesn't look that athletic anymore. Not sure what to make of that.

--I suspect he does bounce back at least somewhat. Pat Burrell and Mike Lowell, for example, also had years where their batting averages collapsed, but they made it back.

--If Sabean decided he wanted to make a splash, Jones is probably as decent bet as any for the price we're talking about. I'm not necessarily convinced, but there are much, much worse options out there.

by Dan from NM on Nov 24, 2007 10:20 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I've puzzled over his lack of speed/athleticism too. How is it possible that someone who is sooooo good in the outfield could have so few stolen bases, triples, and other signifiers of speed?

Maybe it's coaching. Maybe he just decided he didn't care about that part of the game. That would be a disappointing decision from a fan's perspective, but on the other hand we've all seen what hoarding his talent did for Barry Bonds over the years.

I think there's a general perception that Andruw is a bit lazy, that he hasn't worked has hard as he might and his game hasn't developed to the degree that was prophesized -- that is, he hasn't been as good as Willie Mays. I don't know whether this is true or not. If so, I guess it doesn't bode well for how he will age. But that also cuts both ways: If he has left some talent on the table, he might get better when (if) maturity kicks in.  I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be more productive in his early 30s than in his late 20s. (As Willie was, in fact.)

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Everyone from Curacao is lazy. Good call.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Nov 24, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Although it may very well be the perception, I'm not sure maturity is much of an issue.  Even with the defense, I've never really thought of Andruw as a speed player (look at the number of DPs he hits into in addition to his lack of triples and SBs).  It seems to me that his outstanding defense is mainly a result of positioning and an exceptional ability to read the ball off the bat.
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 25, 2007 12:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I would just want to make sure that his bat speed and hand-eye coordination is not rapidly degrading.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Nov 24, 2007 11:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Well, he's pulling the ball more than ever, which speaks well of his bat speed. And his peripherals haven't changed, which suggests his hand-eye coordination hasn't changed. He still looks like Pedro Feliz on a lot of outside breaking balls, but that's nothing new.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I almost didn't read this because it was so long and such an exhausted topic.  In any case, I did, and I would like to thank you.  Well researched and presented.  I disagree with Roger.  A guy who gets injured doesn't necessarily just lose the power.  Discomfort in the arm, especially the elbow will make a player tighten up and pull out of the way during a swing.  The discomfort can cause a drop in accuracy for putting the bat head on the ball.  
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 24, 2007 11:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Well, your arguments certainly convinced me. Then again, someone who's sig line is "Sign Andruw Jones" didn't really need much convincing. Another thing you didn't mention that SHOULD be a big reason for the Giants to sign him from a financial standpoint is that he's a big name, and big names sell tickets. All I have seen from this team recently is a desire to chase away the fans. Bad team, best young players a few years away, getting rid of their best ticket selling player, and an unwillingness to increase payroll. Even if Andruw Jones IS declining, at least he's a name that will sell tickets in December and January. Right now every Giant headline has to do with their best player for the last 15 years being indicted. Doesn't really stimulate a fan to spend some money on the team, does it??
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 11:20 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
The argument for signing Jones was much stronger with Bonds on the team. Alone Jones makes too little of a difference. Now, if the Giants trade for Miguel Cabrera then ... perhaps. The upside is they sure have the money available to go after Jones if they want to do so.

by Sayhey on Nov 24, 2007 11:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Yeah. But you've got to start somewhere. The one thing I'm sure of is that the strategy of waiting on all our prospects to develop into good players at the same time is doomed to failure. They need to be supplemented by outside talent, and not the kind that can be expected to be average for a year or two and then fade away.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
exactly. I heard this same argument when we were talking about ARod. Why get him when we have nobody to protect him in the lineup. It just doesn't wash. Of course it's better to have two big hitters in your lineup, but why would anyone think it's better to have no big hitters than it is to have one??
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
We also heard it alot when the Tigers were signing Irod and Ordonez. But I think they correctly identified that when your team is starving for talent, you need to concentrate on bringing talented players in by hook or by crook. The Tigers took chances on risky players others didn't want as one method of increasing their pool of talent.

"The next good Giants team" will come the next time we have a critical mass of good, productive players. And we need to get started on collecting those guys one good personnel move at a time. I agree with Evan, sitting around and waiting on our farm system to spit forward a playoff team en masse is a recipe for long term disaster.  Heck a mere three years from now, if we haven't gotten significantly better, we no doubt go into the winter with the number one issue being "who do we trade Matt Cain to before he walks", because good players who reach FA having never played on a .500 team don't stick around.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Nov 25, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I thought his nickname was Pudge.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 25, 2007 11:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
No big contracts to any players whose stats dropped big time once league started PED testing.  Take the Brave's lead and stay away from this guy.

by seyheystretch on Nov 24, 2007 12:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
The league started testing in 2003, and under the current system in 2005 (Jones's 51 HR season), so your point is moot.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Sorry, phrased it wrong.  
Of course, the benefits of PED's disappear within minutes of non-use.  
Muscle loss isn't evident for a year or so, particularly if one was to take HGH, which isn't tested.
Heads continue to enlarge and magnified hair loss 'just kind of happens' to these guys.

by seyheystretch on Nov 24, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Jones had the two best power seasons of his career after testing, then suddenly one bad season proves he was on something? And accelerated hair loss in a 30 year old is the nail in the coffin? That's no evidence at all.

I'm quite sure that there are ways to beat the tests, so why would he suddenly quit taking on the eve of free agency? Especially if he was confident enough to take it right before serious testing began in 2005 (the year his HR total jumped by 22). This is utterly asinine. It's certainly possible that he was on something, but only in a vague "no one is above suspicion" sort of way.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Muscle atrophy actually
happens VERY VERY fast, if one does nothing to maintain that muscle. It happens within weeks.

by rfloh on Nov 24, 2007 10:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
uhhh, he OPS+ 136 and 126 and had 51 and 41 homers in the first two seasons of testing. those are his highest totals in both categories.

I'd say his stats jumped once the league started testing.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 24, 2007 12:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Evan, great work. Enjoyed reading your your case. It is easy to read, insightful and well presented. Andruw Jones would be a very solid addition to the SF Giants as both a CF and clean-up hitter. Read a piece that said Jones was playing thru a lot of pain in 2007 that he eventually received a cortisone shot. After receiving the shot and the pain was alleviated his play improved. C'mon Sabean, do your due diligence and sign Andruw Jones. Would he be able to wear number 25?

by wilriv21 on Nov 24, 2007 12:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
wear 25?

uhhhhhh . . . no.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 24, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I'm alright with Andruw. Of all the big name free agents Andruw would've been the best (albeit A-rod, Lowell, Cordero, Rivera, and Hunter have all signed with other teams thank god)
Frandsen for 3B (til July 08)

by NeifiChicken on Nov 24, 2007 1:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
From what I've read the teams interested in Jones are only willing to sign him to a contract of 3 years or less.  I'd think that the Giants are one of those teams.  Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Jones resigned with the Braves, possibly going around Boras similar to the way Rodriguez and Rogers have.

by Cainer on Nov 24, 2007 1:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
If I were Boras, I'd be trying to get him a one-year deal with the Phillies. He should hit an awful lot of home runs in that park, and he'd have a good shot at getting back into the postseason.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Yeah Philly is a good place to hit HR, Cincinnati too.  Too bad Boras isn't interested in a one year deal.  As long as Jones doesn't end up in SF with a long term contract it's okay with me.

by Cainer on Nov 24, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Evan, it seems to me your basic argument almost fits Zito as well.
  I read two articles in the national press about this year's FAs.  Both made the point that Jones is very, very overrated - he is trading on his reputation, but is but a shadow of his former self.  Both articles quoted scouts who said he had become selfish and homerun crazy - and is now overswinging and trying to pull everything.  They also said his defense has really fallen - often times he does not even get to relatively routine flyballs.  They both said he was not only hugely overrated but no longer had the drive to do anything but hit homeruns.
  Sorry, I just cannot find the cites - but they were national articles - ESPN or SI.
  Lastly, I don't see how Jones, once you figure in the risk, is worth soooo much more money than Winn.  It seems to me we don't need more OFs - we need fewer (older) OFs so we can play and develop our younger ones.  Our OF is not our problem.  Our OFs hit (BAs - sorry, I'm old and understand BA more than other numbers) 304, 300, 287, 279.  Even Roberts, whose season BA was 269, once he'd recovered from his surgery, hit 291 post all star).  I just don't see sitting one or more of those guys for, hopefully, a few more HRs.  What we need is IFs.  Our IF last year hit 267 (Frandsen), 260, 253, 252, 246, 218, w/ OPS of 710, 744, 708, 672, 621, 638.  WE have 1b and 3b open, and those are the spots to improve over last year, are the spots that we have nothing in the system (unlike OF).  No need for the risk of AJones.  Better to take a risk on Sexton or Tejeda or Crede - guys who'll fill positions for which we have NOOOOOO answer.

by allfrank on Nov 24, 2007 2:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I think there's are several key differences between Jones and Zito.
  1. Pitching was not an area of need for the Giants when Zito was signed, OTOH, hitting is an area of dire need for the team right now.
  2. Zito was coming off 3 down years (when compared to his peak, and especially when looking at his peripherals), with no obvious explanation for the fading performance beyond diminished abilities. Jones is coming off of one down year, which could be explained by an injury.
  3. There appeared to be interest in Zito from large market teams, notably the Mets, driving up Boras's leverage (ignoring, for a minute, rumors that no other team was willing to clear 100M). Jones, OTOH, seems to be garnering little interest from large-payroll clubs.
Is Jones' defense overrated? Probably, yes. Is he homer-happy? It would appear so. Is he fat? Yup.  Does this mean that he isn't worth 100M? No. Carlos Lee is also fat and pull-happy. He's also a $100M player with much less defensive value than Jones. If Lee is worth 6/100M (and the market say he is), I don't see how Jones is not.  
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Also, hitters tend to have more gradual and more predictable aging curves than pitchers, who are prone to sudden collapses and career-derailing injuries.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
If the Giants give jones 6/100, I'll be spinning in my grave. But I sure do wish they'd given that deal to Zito now.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Nov 24, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Wow! a dead person posts here!!!

now I've seen it all.

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 24, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I think you have to take the steady buzz of scouts and reporters bad-mouthing Andruw as an opportunity. They're keeping his price down. This is the sort of attack that midcareer superstars often draw. People in New York were saying much the same thing about Alex Rodriguez a year ago. Ten years ago, they were saying it in Chicago about Frank Thomas.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 3:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Who do the scouts work for, or hope to work for?

I'm thinking of a C-word, and it isn't banned by the FCC.  

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 3:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I'm with you. I just don't see the need to sign him to a multi year contract. He's basically a .260 hitter and outside those two years 05, 06, he has averaged 30 hrs. The complaint, and I think well founded is that the Giants have signed FA who have seen their better days...enough is enough already! We have some kids now and there's Bowker on the way. I want to see Ortmeier at 1B and I would like to see Velez and Frandsen fight it out for second. I want to see Nate in RF. We have some great arms, which I hope they don't trade unless we're blown away with an offer. Give me a team with some life and energy and not someone swinging for the fences.

by Buzzword on Nov 24, 2007 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
The complaint is when the Giants sign guys who are 35+ (or catchers who are 32+, since they age much faster) to multi-year contracts. Not many players hit free agency before 30, and, increasingly, not many good players hit free agency at all.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
how many season tickets are you buying?? You may want to see Bowker and Nate and Velez and guys like that, but the Giants are not going to be able to sell names like that to the general ticket buying public. They need a big name for the lineup, and right now Andruw is the biggest FA name out there.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Well RX, Bhaakon, Evan, you have always provided great insights, but I have to respectfully disagree. My family has been season ticket holders since the opening of the park in 2000. We witnessed record breaking home runs with Barry. He has been scorned by many, but we felt he was our Barry. It felt like we knew him and loved him for his efforts. Andrew Jones is no Barry Bonds.

I've watched Andrew Jones since he first came on the scene with the Atlanta Braves in 96. I remember Bobby Cox often talking with the reporters to explain the difference between his obvious talent and his lapses of focus. When I first saw Jones patrolling the outfield, I thought I haven't seen anyone since Willie Mays with such fluidity and movement and if I'm not overstating it, it was like ballet, it was a thing of beauty, but it's not there anymore. And if I may return to Barry, with no intent to be unfair, but to make a point of commitment. Barry has kept himself in shape while I can't say, from what I can see, that  is the case for Jones. The final point, and I have absolutely no proof for my opinion, but I don't think that is his real age. The difference between when he first came up and where he is in this stage of his life is, for me, quite startling for someone who is suppose to be 30-31. Regretfully, I think he is on the downward slope of his career.  

by Buzzword on Nov 25, 2007 4:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Curacao isn't the DR, it's essentially in a similar position with the Netherlands as the US is with Puerto Rico. In other words, their government is stable and record keeping reliable. Age fraud isn't an issue.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 25, 2007 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Getting Andruw Jones wouldn't kill me. On the other hand, not getting Andrue Jones wouldn't not fail to kill me. So there's that.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 24, 2007 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Assuming the contract is reasonable, I wouldn't mind seeing Jones in a Giants uni. I won't be devastated if he signs elsewhere though.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 24, 2007 3:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
You said this with fewer double negatives than I said it. On the other hand, I didn't not say it with more.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 24, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
He's Type B, so ... no, right? I forget the rules. Definitely not the first rounder.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 3:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
He is type-B, but our first round pick was protected anyway.

On a side not, keeping as many picks as possible is one positive side effect of spending all the FA money on one big player. Especially useful since the Giants aren't likely to get any compensation picks.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Does Type B mean that we lose our second-rounder, or just that the Braves get a supplemental?

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 4:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
supplemental only.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Nov 24, 2007 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
No. The Giants won't lose any picks, but the Braves would get an extra pick in the supplemental round, which is between the first and second rounds.

by Dan from NM on Nov 24, 2007 4:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
Flipping by ESPNNews (is that the correct number of n's?) today, Bob Nightingale mentioned during their Hot Stove Report that he thinks Jones is San Francisco-bound. Of course, that's not really the point of this diary, is it? The point is to decide whether that's a good thing or bad...bah! Sorry. Damn oompah loompahs. All they wanna do is fuck.
Didn't you used to be Barry Zito?

by VidaWantsYourCar on Nov 24, 2007 4:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I think I would welcome a slugging and +defender outfielder, like Jones, with open arms - after Sabean had traded one or two of Roberts/Winn and one/two of the young OFers in packages with pitchers for corner IFers.  Even minus Winn, I wouldn't pout  about an outfield mix of Nate, Davis, Lewis, Roberts and Ortmeier if the Giants ended up swinging and missing on a AJones deal.

I don't feel that AJones fits the role of IRod in the Giants07::Tigers03 analogy, at this moment.  I think AROD did - maybe even at 10 years/Bazillion dollars.  inflation (Isn't that what an aging star catcher cost the Tigers back then... ie way too much.)  but the argument in this thread is sound... and after some more thinking, maybe my "feeling" will start to agree with you. thanks for your thoughts.

by kennv on Nov 24, 2007 5:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
One thing you can be sure of though. If the Giants DO sign Andruw Jones, it will be for more years and more dollars than anyone of us want. There are several factors involved in that. The Giants need Andruw more than Andruw needs them. The ballpark is not conducive to hitting homeruns and the Giants will ALWAYS have to pay more to get a slugger to come here. He will be coming to a lineup with no protection where he will have to be "the man." The team will probably not be a contender, although other moves might still be made. And finally, his agent is named Scott Boras. I want the Giants to sign Andruw, but I know I will be cringing when I see the actual dollars and years. Torii Hunter just got 5 years 90 million dollars and Andruw Jones is two years younger and has had a much better career.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 7:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I don't think anyone here would disagree that the Giants have much bigger issues than centerfield.  I really don't see any point in giving yet another huge, crippling multi-year contract to an aging player that has so many question marks unless it shores up the one hole that could lead to a championship.  Face it, the Giants simply don't have a good enough team right now to warrant their stubborn "shoot for the BIGGEST stars" mentality every off-season.  They can sign Andruw Jones, and they'll still have a bad offense next year, but the added bonus of having much less financial flexibility to patch up all the other holes.

by ololo3 on Nov 25, 2007 10:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
I vote no. IF Andruw were a free agent 3B with the same history and stats, I might reconsider. Maybe. But he isn't, and without a summary trade of Roberts and Lewis and Davis to make room for him in the OF, I just don't see it being worthwhile. Too many dollars, wrong agent, bad conditioning, questionable attitude, declining defense... I just don't see it.

So, when Sabean signs him (as I'm sure he will, since Brian always makes bad moves like this) I won't become catatonic. I'll just look forward to all the "told-you-so" posts I can make next year.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 25, 2007 3:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Case for Andruw Jones
naw
you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Nov 27, 2007 1:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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