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Madison Bumgarner

I found a nice little video of Madison Bumgarner pitching for his HS team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAko0PpgYK8

 Notice his extremely low, almost sidearm delivery.  It does look like  a natural, easy motion though, and the ball seems to explode out of his hand.  The pitches look kind of dart like with lots of movement and variable movements.  I guess the rap is that it can be difficult to develop secondary pitches out of that arm slot, especially breaking balls with downward movement.

I still think we should have drafted Beau Mills at #10, but I find myself getting more and more excited in anticipation of Bumgarner's coming out party in the spring.  I wonder if we will seem both him and Timmy Alderson in the Augusta boxscores?  I can hardly wait.

Just a reminder of Bumgarner's HS stats from 2007:  12-2, 0.99, 85 IP, 27 BB, 120 K.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Madison Bumgarner
Good find. He has a really short stride to home plate.  

by KCE on Nov 22, 2007 10:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
Mad Bum looks like too much of an arm thrower to me.  I hope he avoids serious injury. He does look like he could be good if he stays healthy.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Glass Half Full?
I thought you said you are a glass half full kind of guy, Shark.  You sure got a funny way of showing it.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Glass Half Full?
he meant that his glass is half full of arsenic.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 22, 2007 12:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Glass Half Full?
Mix it with powdered sugar, it goes down easier.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 22, 2007 1:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Glass Half Full?
I am a glass-half-full kind of guy, Dr., but I'm also a realist.  There are those who are far more knowledgeable than I who believe he is an arm and shoulder thrower with a great-than-average risk of a shoulder or hamstring injury.

It's kind of like with your kids.  You hope the best for them, but you also realize their limitations and risks.  That doesn't mean you don't love them.  It merely means that while you may be a glass-half-full kind of guy, you can still be a realist.

I DO like the strokes of both Wendell Fairley and Nick Noonan, so hopefully I'll be right about them and wrong about Mad Bum.

I do like the fluidity with which Mad Bum throws.  I merely wish he would use his whole body more, taking some of the strain off his pitching arm.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

MadBum
No Shark, like his nickname, he's a bum and he'll never ever make it.  You win.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 8:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
Perhaps you're thinking of me, Doc. I don't think he'll make it. For the above stated reasons. Of course, I hope I'm wrong. But if you held a gun to head my head and made me predict the future, my best guess is that he won't.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 23, 2007 5:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
Well, attrition rate for HS pitching draftees is huge, so that's an easy prediction to make. The liklihood of both Bungarner and Alderson becoming impact major league pitchers is probably pretty small.  I'm not sure how you can pick one over the other at this point and it's nice to have strength in numbers.

Shark has given his reasons for thinking MadBum is going to get hurt.  What are your reasons for thinking he won't make it other than the normal attrition rate?

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 7:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
I'd be interested in reading his reasons as well, because almost everyone in the business is pretty much predicting that this guy will be something special. I even have a baseball magazine from LAST year that has him pegged as a future star. As for Rog and his predictions, although I respect his opinion, it's obvious that the Giants scouted him extensively before making him their number one pick, and it's hard to believe that Rog would know more than them from watching a one minute youtube clip.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 23, 2007 8:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
Well, the easiness of the prediction is quite attractive :)  I'm just generally skeptical of HS lefthanders, and I certainly won't pretend to analyze his motion. But when you add the reports that he doesn't have any offspeed pitches to speak of, that also downgrades him ihmo. Could he learn a curve in the minors? Sure, he could. He could be the next Ron Guidry. I admit anything is possible. I just don't think it's likely. Let me put it another way - I think it's less likely than several other possibilities. His fastball sounds good, but ML hitters can adapt to even the fastest fastballs. He has a long way to go in his development; whereas Alderson was judged by BA as very close to the majors already.

Maybe I'm quibbling about where he was selected in the draft. If he'd been our 3rd or 4th pick, I think I'd feel better about taking a shot on him. But to use the #10 pick on him just seems like too much of a gamble (yes, it's all a crapshoot, I know). I'd have felt better if we drafted Michael Main at #10 (expensive, but not Porcello-like). He was a HS righty (better track record) with a better arsenal of pitches.

We needed a better draft than we got. Alderson and Noonan look pretty good. Maybe Fairley turns out to be as good as Jason Heyward (another better choice at #10). Maybe Jackson Williams becomes Kirt Manwaring II. Maybe Charlie Culberson makes it to AA. But there were 3B out there we needed to take some chances on. Bumgarner just wasn't, to me, the kind of gamble we needed to take last June.

The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 23, 2007 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
I certainly won't argue about taking Jason Heyward at #10.  That kid is the next Willie Mac, mark my words.  I wanted Beau Mills because he was the one hitter available who I think could be fasttracked to the majors in less than 2 years and whose ceiling is as good or better than any of the HS hitters.  I am also not convinced Bumgarner was the only best player available at that spot.  You mentioned Michael Main who would have been at least as good.  There's Mills and Heyward who I think were as good or better even if you follow the Best Avaliable rule.

Having said all that, I think Madison Bumgarner is going to be good and I'm rooting for him to succeed.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 8:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
Hiatt has said that they've already taught him  an effective second pitch, and they will teach him another one next season. I guess there are two ways of looking at it. Way number one is they know what they're doing, and wouldn't have wasted a first round number 10 pick on a one pitch pitcher who is going to have arm trouble in the future. Way number two is that they're idiots. After the way the team played this past year, I guess more and more fans are going with option number two, but I'm going with option one, because these are the same people who picked Lincecum the year before that.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 6:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: MadBum
Oh man, Michael Main has just as many problems as madison.  He's going to hurt his arm because he transfers movement to velocity in such a short period of time.  He needs a major overhaul of mechanics to be a healthy pitcher.  I actually would have preferred Heyward as he just looked fantastic to me.  Madison's lack of secondary pitches doesn't bother me all that much.  It definitely adds to his arm health as he has never put undue stress on it until he has fully matured.  Instead of focusing on his secondary pitches he got the most out of his motion and knows his body well.  I think this bodes well for when he may need to make correction in his mechanics.
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 24, 2007 1:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Arm Thrower?
Shark,

Here's a link to a video of Randy Johnson pitching:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=28DhWy6obUK

There are others on the Youtube, especially one of him warming up in the bullpen.  RJ has a slightly longer stride than Bumgarner, but otherwise, if I didn't know better, I would say MadBum was trying to copy RJ.  Now, RJ has had a nice long career, wouldn't you say?

You might also want to check out Carlos Gomez' breaddown of Bumgarner's delivery:

http://hardballtimes.com/article/breaking-down-the-draft-1st-round-picks-1-10

Make sure you scroll down and read his comparison/contrast with Phillipe Aumont, who many say is a mirror image of Bumgarner's delivery.

Interestingly enough, Gomez, who knows a whole lot more about pitching mechanics than I, is much more critical of Alderson's delivery:

http://hardballtimes.com/article/breaking-down-the-draft-1st-round-picks-21-30

One thing I like about Gomez is that he comments on both the strengths and weaknesses of a delivery and emphasized on building on what they do well rather than picking out a flaw and jumping to the conclusions about a future arm injury.  In spite of his crticisms of Alderson, he stil really likes him as a pitcher.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 8:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Arm Thrower?
Statistically, I LOVE both Mad Bum and Timmy Two.  But scouting-wise, I didn't like either of their motions much, while I was particularly enamored of the delivery of Rick Porcello.

I know more about the statistical side than the scouting side, so perhaps I should go with that.  Right now I'm hoping they both can be what their statistical side indicates, while fearing that their motions could ultimately prevent that.

Certainly we all would be quite happy if Mad Bum were representative of Randy Johnson much at all.  Randy has had a ton of arm problems, but has risen above them to have one of the top 20 pitching careers of all time.

I really don't know WHAT to make of Mad Bum and Timmy Two other than to hope for the best and fear the worst -- and to use this as a small test for scouting compared to statistical analysis.  I believe the best way to go is to combine both, but I am surprised by how different my viewpoint is depending on which I use.

I'm certainly not a great scout, so probably the statistical side is better -- and that side is wowed by the pair. Great combinations of dominance and control.  Clearly each has great size.

Regardless of how these guys turn out, I will learn something by having analyzed them before knowing how their careers will turn out.  I guess it is possible both sides might turn out to be right, with both pitchers being dominant when healthy but suffering a high number of injuries.  Hey, both sides could also be wrong.

In a best-case scenario, the pair turn out to be the next generation's version of a righty and lefty Randy Johnson.  I would like that very much.  Worrying about how to keep Lincecum, Cain and two good imitations of Randy Johnson would be the type of POSITIVE problem I'd love to see the Giants have.

I do like both Fairley and Noonan mechanically, and both Mad Bum and Timmy Two were drafted well AHEAD of that pair.  So let's hope that Wendell and Nick turn out well and that Madison and Tim turn out to be even BETTER.

by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2007 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stats vs Scouting
Well, I'm not expert on pitching mechanics.  I'm trying to learn.  The point of those links is that somebody who knows a lot more about mechanics than I, and I suspect, you, actually likes MadBum's mechanics.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Stats vs Scouting
That is a good point -- although there are others who don't.  Of course, not every good pitcher has good mechanics, either.  But it helps.

One point you should probably make as well but perhaps haven't because it has been oft-discussed here in another context is that the Giants have done far better drafting and developing pitchers than position players.

And most of all I'm hoping that somehow Brian magically became a better drafter of players the past two years and that the trend will continue, along with improved development.  There are signs this could indeed be the case.

One thing that has naturally helped Brian in this regard has been having better drafting position.  Fortunately/unfortunately that is likely to continue for another two or three years IMO.  I'm hoping Brian hits a grand slam with the #5 overall pick in 2008.

by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2007 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Others
Maybe you could post a link to these other experts who you say don't like Bumgarner's mechanics?  Honestly, everything I've read has been quite complimentary. In fact, I was very critical of the pick when they made it(I still think they should have drafted either Beau Mills or Jason Heyward, but that's water under the bridge), but my reading of other's opinions has softened me up a lot and I'm now waiting with bated breath to see what we have in him, Alderson and Fairley.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Arm Thrower?
Sorry everybody, those links aren't working, at least on my computer.  I suck at links!!  Maybe somebody can fix them?  Hope they at least point somebody in the right direction.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Arm Thrower?
With regard to Carlos Gomez, I respect his judgement a lot.  He certainly knows far more about pitching than I.

In fact, it was his judgement along with the absolutely wonderful stats both pitchers posted that has me cautiously optimistic about Mad Bum and Timmy Two.

I just don't know what to expect from the pair.  But naturally I'm hoping I'll be pleased with their progress.

I would feel more confident had they signed Rick Porcello, but it is also possible both Giants picks will turn out and Rick will turn out to be a poor fellow.

by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2007 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Porcello
Here we go again.  All, and I mean all, pitching prospects are suspect to some extent.  TINSTAAP ring any bells?  Now, I'm not a TINSTAAP devotee, but the very fact that the term exists tells  you something.  

Would I rather have Rick Porcello than either Bumgarner or Alderson?  Yes I would, but a small margin.

I would much rather have both Bumgarner and Alderson than just Porcello.  Those two cost just a bit more than half what it would have cost to sign Porcello.

Now, we can debate drafting/signing strategy until the cows come home, but it's simply not realistic to think the Giants would have spent that kind of money on Porcello and then also drafted the other high ceiling players they did.  Those 6 first and supplemental round picks?  It would have been one of Porcello and 5 of Jackson Williams'

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 10:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
Your point here is a good one.  My point is that I believe the Giants should now focus their efforts and money on scouting and developing players.

You are correct that the Giants weren't likely to spend the big bucks on Porcello and still spend significant money on each of the other picks.  Heck, you're probably right that the Giants weren't going to spend the big bucks on Porcello regardless of what else they did.

But my point is that should Rick go on to become a big star, the $7 million the Tigers guaranteed him could wind up being only one or two percent of what Rick makes during his entire career.  I would much rather the Giants have spent the extra $5 million or so on Porcello than have signed Dave Roberts for over three times that amount.

And, yes, I realize that really isn't a fair comparison, since the money had already been spent on Davey.

But my point is that while the Giants appear to be getting back on track, they are so far behind right now with upper-level prospects that they should be focusing even more heavily on drafting and developing prospects.

Your point, by the way, that having BOTH Mad Bum and Timmy Two rather than Porcello is likely a good thing.  It is certainly a reduction of risk (although Porcello's mechanics appear to me to greatly diminish his injury risk).

It's easy for me to talk about how the Giants should be spending their money, since it doesn't come out of MY pocket (except very indirectly).

But why did Brian spend money on Neifi Perez when it was obvious the guy could hit only in Coors Field, on Jose Vizcaino when it was obvious the guy could no longer get on base and on Dave Roberts when the Giants already had a center fielder in Randy Winn and two more possibilities on the way in Freddie Lewis and Clay Timpner?

And with the obvious problem this off-season being where to spend all the available money productively, why wasn't more budgeted to take full advantage of the Giants' great draft situation this past June?

It is as if the Giants are guilty of being overly reactive when they should instead be becoming highly proactive.

It is as if the Giants were mesmerized by the brilliance that was Barry Bonds and were oblivious to how their foundation was crumbling and the fixtures were falling down around Barry.

Oh, and were they so enamored with the name Barry that they had to overspend on Zito?  It was obvious when they signed Barry that he wasn't likely to be more than their #3 starter for very long.

Don't the Giants see ANYTHING?  I know they have more knowledge on this stuff than we do, but it is almost as if we as a group here could make better decisions than they seem to be making.

Again, the signings of the past two years have been impressive (based on the little we know about them).  Hopefully this is a clear indication that the Giants have turned the corner, that it's no longer business as usual.

But, really, how could they have allowed the house to crumble this badly without experiencing an earthquake?

by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2007 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey! We Agree!
You didn't even mention dumping a first round draft pick to free up money to sign Michael Tucker.  Sabean should have been fired on the spot after that one.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hey! We Agree!
Fired on the spot?? You think Brian Sabean likes to forfeit number one picks, or do you think the owners had something to do with that. Don't you think Magowan told him to put all the payroll in to the major league budget and not spend any money on minor leaguers?? You really think that ANY major league GM doesn't want unlimited money for his big league team and unlimited money put into the farm system?? This was just a bad decision made by a team that was looking to cut financial corners.
SIGN ANDRUW JONES!!

by rxmeister on Nov 24, 2007 6:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hey! We Agree!
You make a good point here, Mark.  But as the Giants' baseball expert, Brian should have said that he would spend slightly less on mediocre free agents in order to allow the Giants to build their foundation with minor leaguers.

After the 2002 World Series Theo Epstein said that the Boston Red Sox were going to rebuild their prospect scouting and development.  Several players drafted in the ensuing five years played important roles in the Red Sox World Championship last month.

Meanwhile the Giants allowed Jeff Kent, Billy Mueller, Reggie Sanders, Kenny Lofton, Russ Ortiz and Livan Hernandez to leave that winter, and then began forfeiting draft picks a winter or two later.

Brian Sabean had a top-quarter budget, yet he made very poor choices on how to spend that money.  Because he had done such a fabulous job at the major-league level during his first half dozen years on the job, the Giants remained competitive for a couple of seasons.  But once Barry Bonds was injured and no longer super human in the batters' box, the Giants became a below-average team.

Clearly the Giants had built their competitiveness too heavily on the enlarging shoulders of Bonds.  

Five years later, the Red Sox have a farm system that has made a considerable contribution to their latest World Championship, while the Giants have the worst hitting in the majors.  The Red Sox have developed continuity; the Giants have developed a massive hole.

by sharksrog on Nov 24, 2007 9:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
I agree with all of that, Rog.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 23, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
Did you get my e-mail, Lyle?  I spoke to Bartlett on the phone today.

by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
Thanks for pointing that out. I just replied.
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Nov 25, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
You think there's a chance Porcello makes $700 million over his career?
I have set Dave Roberts free; if he comes back, it was meant to be.

by hometownboy on Nov 24, 2007 3:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
Yes.  If he's really good and the baseball economy stays hot.  In his first season with the Giants Barry Bonds earned $4.5 million.  A dozen years later he earned $22 million.

When Alex Rodriguez was drafted, do you think many expected him to make the amount of money he will make if he remains healthy and productive for another decade?

by sharksrog on Nov 24, 2007 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Porcello
How come you voted for Nixon, twice??

Because you're stupid!
Stupid!
Stupid!
Stupid!
Stupid!

by zenbitz on Nov 24, 2007 12:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I'm thinking they both will be in Arizona to start next year.  Alderson could possibly start in Augusta since he's almost a year older and had a few solid outings after signing, but that's was only 5 innings.

by Cainer on Nov 22, 2007 10:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I'm thinking they do this too. They can always bump both up to Augusta if they feel the guys are doing well. They can throw in extended spring training before the AZL league starts.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 22, 2007 11:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I will be very surpised if at least Tim Alderson is not in Augusta to start the season.The Giants have never been shy about pushing their pitching prospects if they feel they are ready.  Alderson looks like he is.  A comparison would be Matt Cain who only got in a few innings in AZ his first summer and then opened his first full season in Hagerstown the following spring.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I hope you are right about Alderson. Am i the only one more excited about him then about Mad Bum? I just think that finding a pitcher with good, advanced breaking pitches out of high school is harder to do then to find a high school hard - thrower with no secondary pitches.

By the way, how fast is Alderson's fastball? I remember reading that he could reach 93-94, but if that's true then how come he was taken so low?

by Cookyman on Nov 22, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
No, I think there are a lot of people more excited about Alderson than Bumgarner.  I think that's natural in that the brief look we've had of him was spectacular, whereas Bumgarner has yet to pitch in the pros.  

The thing that has me really excited is the thought that we have both of them!  You are right that it's not easy to find a HS pitcher with Alderson's kind of velocity, control and breaking stuff, but it's not easy to find a HS lefty with Bumgarners velocity and obvious upside either.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I'm not sure about MadBum. On one hand hard throwing HS pitchers are known to be overrated in the draft, and they tend to disappoint more often other draftees (partially because of higher expectations, but still), but on the other hand the last one we signed worked out pretty well (look under Superwonderfull, the amazing adventures of).

But you are absolutely right about having both of them. I mean, a couple of years from now, when Lincecum signs with the Yankees (how could we sign him when we have our money invested in Zito?) and Sebean trades Cain for four (!) mediocre players, Timmy 2 and MadBum could replace them in the rotation. Now that's what I call optimism!  

by Cookyman on Nov 22, 2007 4:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I really hope they both tear up the Sally League next year. They look like total badasses.

I think I might actually be more excited about the prospect of seeing minor lines from guys like Bumgarner, Alderson, Fairley, Noonan, Villalona, and Culberson than I am about seeing most of the major league club. lolz.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Nov 22, 2007 11:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
Oh man, I've been doing that for a while now. Minor league stuff is just way more fun.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 22, 2007 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
Sure...we can dream about the glory of the 2012 Giants instead of facing the objective reality of the 2005-8 team. In the big club's defense, though, the garlic fries are better at the Phone Booth than at my computer...
I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on Nov 22, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
It's a lot easier on my liver, too.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 23, 2007 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
I'm not going to join in on the whole motion thing, though I like the offspeed stuff I saw.  But this kid won't have a slider.

That all said, one relatively minor point: I don't think I've ever seen a left-hander who throws at this velocity who finishes square to the plate as well as Bumgarner.  I bet he fields his position very well.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Nov 24, 2007 3:28 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Educate Me
Why do you say he'll never have a slider?  Randy Johnson throws from almost an identical arm angle and he's always had a great slider.  

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 24, 2007 7:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
That's something I have been wondering about. People say the reason Sanchez has a crappy slider is his 3/4 delivery, but Johnson has a similar delivery  and he throws one of the best sliders in the league.

by Cookyman on Nov 24, 2007 8:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
Well, Randy Johnson is kind of a bad example to hold against anybody who is also not a complete physical freak of nature. That's really the best I can do in terms of analysis here.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 24, 2007 4:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
I'm not saying Bumgarner is the next RJ.  I'm just questioning why some say you can't have a good slider from that arm slot when RJ throws from way low and has a great one.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 24, 2007 4:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
He really does look like RJ on the mound, doesn't he? Let's try not to think about how long it took RJ to develop.

by Evan on Nov 24, 2007 8:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
Because of height.

A good slider is effective because of its downward movement, which requires a certain amount of downward arm movement.

RJ's angle is okay because of his height.  While the angle is similar, his arm naturally has more downward movement than a shorter man because of the length of his limbs; his longer arm moves more downward more in total than a shorter arm, and his longer stride also leads to more downward momentum in the body.

Sanchez in particular has more problems because he lets his arm slot drop while pitching, flattening out his pitches.

In fair disclosure, it's not that Bumgarner can't have a slider, but a slider is a more difficult pitch to maintain because of the tendency to drop the arm slot; all similar pitchers have had this, including RJ when he's been off.  But I think it's unlikely a MadBum slider will ever be effective, both because of that RJ height difference and MadBum's much shorter and less exaggerated stride.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Nov 25, 2007 1:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Educate Me
I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure that is a correct explanation.  Isn't the difference between a fastball and a slider the fact that the slider breaks from the original flight plane in two dimensions, lateral and down.  I can see why a low arm angle might inhibit a downward break, but I don't see how a height difference affects that.  Yes, the ball starts out from 5" higher, and travels on a downward plane, that's just a fastball.

I'll have to get out my Physics of Baseball book and see if they address this.  Where is chadbradfordwannabe when you need him?  Did I read that he landed a paying gig with a MLB club?

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 26, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Madison Bumgarner
It seems to me that Bumgarner's stride looked longer in the original MLB draft video. FWIW.

by Dan from NM on Nov 24, 2007 10:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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