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Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.

Hey, I don't know how many people are interested in this but The A's apparently have invited a couple of ex-Giants players to spring training, Justin Knoedler and Todd Linden.

I always liked Knoedler and don't think he was ever given a fair shot by the Giants to prove what he was capable of, I hope he claims the A's backup job behind Suzuki though it seems unlikely because they have Bowen on board already.

I was a Linden believer until the very end, and although I was wrong about him I still hope he sticks in the Majors as at least a 4th outfielder.

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/team/roster_nri.jsp?c_id=oak

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Wow, I didn't even realize Kanoodler was an ex-Giant.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Nov 21, 2007 4:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
He was one of the prominent names on the minor league free agent lists we were talking about in various threads a couple of weeks ago. But perhaps one of our experts can fill me in. Is he definitely lost just because he has an invitation to their spring training camp? Couldn't we also invite him to our camp and wouldn't it then be up to him to choose? If Molina gets traded and we don't pick up Clement or someone like that, he might like his chances better with us.

by NearestNorwich on Nov 21, 2007 8:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
He is gone. Signed contract with A's

by rellubcat on Nov 22, 2007 7:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
fuck. I'd rather have him than Notgardo
Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Nov 22, 2007 12:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
or G-Rod for that matter.
Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Nov 23, 2007 5:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Anytime the Beaner* picks up an ex-Giant, I fear that we let something special go.

*not in any way, shape, or form meant as a racial slur.

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 21, 2007 4:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oh no you didn't
Think you can just use an asterisk and get away with insults? Especially during the Holidays? And in this forum?

* Asterisks are reserved for sports records.

by wilriv21 on Nov 21, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh no you didn't
Asterisks aren't reserved for sports records...they're reserved for *ssholes.
Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Nov 21, 2007 8:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh no you didn't
ooh, that's a good one, i'm gonna write that down

by joeytothelimit on Nov 21, 2007 9:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh no you didn't
I don't think Bondsy is going to like that one.

by wilriv21 on Nov 21, 2007 10:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh no you didn't
Who said I was referring to him?
Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Nov 23, 2007 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
*insert Carlos Mencia clip here8
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 21, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Billy Beane
I don't get the continued deificaton of Billy Beane.  The A's major league roster is an absolute mess, and their farm system is one of the lowest rated in all of baseball.  They are one of the few teams in baseball who might actually have a bleaker future than the Giants.  That's what 5 years of "Moneyball" or "Billyball" has wrought.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 21, 2007 6:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

THANK YOU!
I'm glad to see someone else say the thing that's been on my mind a lot lately.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Nov 21, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

partly true
most of their talent is in the lower minors

also the majority of their prospects the last couple yrs, the letdown is mainly due to injuries, rather than poor performance. is that really the GM's fault?

also since their mlb team was decimated with injuries it put a strain of the farm system at the upper levels. Buck, Barton, Suzuki, Putnam, Melillo, Braden, Meyer would've likely not spent stretches of the season atthe mlb level

their next wave of prospects should be ready in a yr or two. and if the rumors are true, Beane likely will trade away a player or two out of the Haren/Blanton/Street/Gaudin/Ellis group to fill those gaps in the upper minors during that time.If that happens, i dont think its as bleak as you think it seems to be. they'll likely get a haul of at least 5 mlb ready prospects to add to their current core of players that are still young themselves in the early-mid 20's

by rayver723 on Nov 21, 2007 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: partly true
Let's see, the last time Beane traded two starting pitchers, he ended up with Dan Haren and Daric Barton.  Let's say he trades two pitchers out of those 5, he's not going to get equal value pitching in return, so what is he going to do for pitching?  If you point to the low minors, you are conceding at least 2-3 losing years before he makes it up.  What makes you think he's going to get 5 MLB ready prospects out of one or two of those pitchers when those pitchers are nowhere near Hudson and Mulder in talent?

I'll say it again.  The A's MLB roster is a mess.  They ain't going to the playoffs with the current lineup.  The only way to upgrade is to cripple the pitching staff for the next 2-3 years.

Yeah, Billy's a genius alright.  

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 21, 2007 11:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: partly true
haren/blanton have trade value 3 yrs from free agency and each would pull a couple blue chip prospects easily. hudson was a 1 yr rental, mulder went for more w/ 2 yrs remaining( who had injury issues) None of this applies to blanton/haren.The current market dictates their value and outside of santana,you argue they might be in high demand as well . that said, i'd only trade one of them and even consider a street trade, since we know the genius doesnt pay closers  top dollar. even their 2nd tier players have some value around the league like ellis/johnson/gaudin where they could get something useful. is all this ideal, to contend for playoff spot in 08, not at all, but be competitive. this something new, since they have needed to be in a semi rebuild in 7 years. they actually have multiple options to go with here. unlike the giants, who put themselves in a corner. they dont have anything of value to trade outside of the pitching (maybe winn also) and have to rely on the FA market.

by rayver723 on Nov 21, 2007 11:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Overvalue
I think you are overvaluing what you get back in trade for a Blanton, and overvaluing whoever you think is going to replace Blanton in the rotation.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 6:37 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Saying things again doesn't make
them true.

Lineup:
1b: Barton
2b Ellis
SS: Crosby
3b: Chavez
RF: Swisher
CF: Denorfia
LF: Buck
C: Suzuki
DH: Cust

2 obvious holes at SS and CF. Everyone else is average or better, taking into account offense and defense.

Yeah, that lineup really really blows. Yeah, that lineup really really needs 5 MLB ready prospects. Where the f*** are those 5 MLB ready prospects going to play? There are 2 big holes in the lineup, that's it.

by rfloh on Nov 22, 2007 4:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Non Holes
Agreed there are two holes.  Problem is the non holes aren't exaclty HOF players.  Than lineup is filled with a bunch of near MLB average hitters which means the two holes need to be filled with way above average players or else the whole lineup is one big average player, unless you are a whole lot more impressed with Chavez, Swisher, et al than I am.  Oh, and please don't point to the Giants for comparison.  We all know the Giants suck right now and that Sabean is a doofus.  To say Beane is a better GM than Sabean(which I am not sure of, BTW) is damning with faint praise.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 6:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Non Holes
I'm as sure that Billy Beane is a better GM than Brian Sabean as I am that today is Thanksiving.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.  We have much to be thankful for -- except the Giants' hitting, of course.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did I use the Giants as a comparison?
Secondly, I'm looking at more than just hitting. When I say that they're all average or above with the exception of SS and CF, I mean offense AND defense.

Take Ellis. His offense is nothing special, around average. Defensively, he has a case as the best 2b in MLB. Offense + defense he is average in his worst year, well above average when he is hitting decently.

Swisher is an above average hitter, who is also a very good defender.

Buck, Barton, Suzuki are all at ages where they should improve. Even Swisher is young enough that an improvement is not unreasonable. That's 4 starters in the lineup

Who cares if none of them are HOF players? I'm not contending that the A's are some juggernaut who will crush other teams.

You stated " The A's major league roster is an absolute mess," and "I'll say it again.  The A's MLB roster is a mess".

A lineup and roster filled with average or above average players is not an "absolute mess".

Your rant would have been more appropriate at the start of the season when Beane foolishly signed Piazza. Your claims about an "absolute mess" would have been more accurate at the start of the season when Beane didn't want to admit that Kendall was crap.

by rfloh on Nov 22, 2007 11:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Did I use the Giants as a comparison?
No you didn't use the Giants as a comparison, but a couple of other people did.  

The A's current MLB roster is a mess because it can't compete for the playoffs in their division and league and they have no good way of fixing it. They have a bunch of OBP guys who don't get on base all that well and virtually no impact power.

As for trades, you are overvaluing Ellis and Johnson, and you're in the same boat with Gaudin as with Blanton.  If you trade even one plitcher, it leaves your rotation short with nobody to replace them.  The day you see Blanton or Gaudin traded is the day you will know The Genius has run up the white flag on the next 2-3 years.

As for the farm system, BA has ranked it #17, 22, 19 and 27 the last 4 years.  Think help is coming from the 2007 draft?  Here's what BA had to say about it:  "Oakland went back to what it does well- drafting college players-and did well from that pool.  The organization needs an infusion of impact talent, though, and this draft class didn't provide that."

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you actually even read my post?
If all you want to do is just rant unobjectively against Beane, then say so.

Where in blazes did I even mention trades? Where in blazes did I even mention Dan Johnson?

I'm not assuming any trades AT ALL. I'm evaluating the roster as currently constructed.

Where in blazes did I call Beane a "genius"?

As for getting into the playoffs, you noticed that the Mariners contended for the playoffs most of the season right? Most teams do not have HOFs in multiple spots. Most teams have holes in their roster. Most teams are not 95 win juggernauts. How many wins do you think the current A's roster is capable of winning? In terms of wins, what qualifies as a mess?

Yeah, they were ranked #17, 22, 19, 27 the last 4 years. Big deal. That farm still produced Barton, Buck and Suzuki. In the end, rankings don't matter . What matters is the final result.

by rfloh on Nov 22, 2007 11:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
I guess I'm answering two people at once here.

You are right.  Results are what matters.  The results of Billy Beane's management of the A's roster is a slow, but steady, slide to mediocrity which is exactly what you would expect from drafting exclusively low risk, low ceiling players.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 23, 2007 7:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Did you actually even read my post?
Did you know that the hole's natural enemy is the pile?

by kwyjibo on Nov 23, 2007 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The majors roster of the A's is an absolute
mess? They have 2 big holes, one in CF and one at SS.

That's pretty much it.

That lowly rated farm still produced Buck, Barton and Suzuki, to name recent graduates.

Jack Cust and Chad Gaudin are also what "Moneyball" has wrought.

by rfloh on Nov 21, 2007 10:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The majors roster of the A's is an absolute
Also, with many more teams now employing "Moneyball" front offices, the market for talent in MLB is much more efficient and the bargains that Beane once found are no longer there.  Beane is smart and the A's will be fine in the long run but I think what we're seeing now is the league catching up to them in terms of evaluating talent.
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 21, 2007 11:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball is overrated
What we're seeing is that Beane made mistakes, primarily with big contracts: Kendall, Kotsay, Piazza. Trading away Lilly and only getting back Bobby Kielty a couple years ago was also a big mistake. Mistakes that he paid for (and is paying for).

He's ability to pickup good players on the cheap: Cust and Gaudin, is still there.

The best players on the team are actually the cheapest players on the team.

Regardless, much of the crap like Kendall, Piazza et al are gone or will be gone soon.

The start of 2007 was actually a better time for the Beane haters to come out of the woodwork and take shots at Beane than now. The A's 2008 roster will be fairly different from the roster that opened the 2007 season.

Buck, Barton and Suzuki unlike Kotsay, Kendall, Piazza, are talented young players with an upward trajectory. Cust, even with a regression to an OPS of around 850 is an MLB calibre hitter, NOT an AAAA hitter who would get killed by MLB pitching, as claimed by his detractors.

by rfloh on Nov 22, 2007 4:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Moneyball is overrated
Think of Brian Sabean as having had the same salary budget as Billy Beane -- except that when that became close to true it was because Brian already had the best player in baseball signed in order to make the amounts even.

Billy has essentially done about as well as Brian -- without the advantage of having Barry Bonds.  Billy is also well ahead of Brian for the future at this point -- although we are hoping that will change within three or four years.

Billy makes mistakes too.  He merely does more good things.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Future?
I don't agree with that at all.  Our pitching is in better shape going ahead, and I guarantee our farm system will be rated, at least by BA, significantly better than the A's.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 22, 2007 10:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Future?
lets compare current offensive cores,

frandsen/davis/lewis/schierholtz/ortmeier

just my opinion but that would make a great bench for most teams, for the giants thats their future

do giants have anyone else ready anytime soon?

maybe bowker/timpner/burris/villalona/07 draft class

by the way i like schierholtz as a hitter, but his walk rate is very pedro feliz like, he better keep up that .300 avg because an .800 + OPS will be hard to maintain in the majors

here's the A's

buck/suzuki/barton/swisher

where the A's lack is they potentially have lots of major leguers in their system, but not the huge upside. but their success rate of producing position prospects is way ahead of the giants. it might change 3 yrs or so yrs from now, if and when those 18/19 yrs old are ready to produce for the giants

their 07 drafts show a big difference in philosophy, sabean went for upside, beane went college heavy picks

like i said before giants dont have many marketable players outside of their pitching to fill those offensive needs. so either they pay a ton of money out or wait several yrs for those other prospects to develop. i believe this can be considered yr 3 of their rebuilding currently. so either sabean can trade a lowry/sanchez or wait it out.

A's can still trade their 2nd tier players like an ellis/DJ/gaudin, get useful players out of those deals to add to their current core

by rayver723 on Nov 22, 2007 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Future?
As I mentioned, I think the Giants could be outdoing the A's in three or four years, but while the A's weren't great last year, they were better than the Giants, whose biggest move for next season was not re-signing their only really good hitter.

I do like the Giants' pitching, primarily the young starters, but at the moment their hitting is the worst in the major leagues.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
wait when did the giants lose knoedler. its a sad sad day
Free Justin Knoedler! (not by trading him to another team though)

by llamalimbo1 on Nov 21, 2007 5:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
I'm still behind Linden, despite what my eyes see
Frandsen for 3B (til July 08)

by NeifiChicken on Nov 21, 2007 6:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Todd isn't likely to hit for average.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I see.*

 *I have no idea what an "Oakland A" is or why anybody is talking about it.

"Have you come to stick a knife in my corpse?".

by Ghost11 on Nov 21, 2007 6:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Mr. Beane is a genius, you'll see.

by Todd Linden on Nov 21, 2007 7:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
I'll admit it.  I was one of the Linden Believers.  I bought into the whole He'll Back Up All Four OF Positions Theory, thinking that Todd would get 400 AB's.

What happened?  The sample size, while obviously Minor Leaage heavy, wasn't insignificant, and didn't suggest meltdown.  You guys think that this was some sort of six month aberration that happened to coincide with his Major Leage debut, or that Linden is simply a AAAA player at best?

Any examples of late-bloomer types who needed 1000 AB's after so long a tour of the minors, but still succeeded?

by biff pocoroba on Nov 21, 2007 10:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
I thought that Todd would take a long time to make it at the major league level, but that eventually he would do so.  Then I analyzed him using a .300 BABIP.  He just plain strikes out too much to hit for any kind of average.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
In order even to hit .245 last season, Linden needed to hit .352 on balls in play.  That isn't sustainable, which means that if he continues to strike out as much as he did last season, he almost certainly won't even hit .245 this year.

by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2007 10:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
A shame about Knoedler, i'm not quite sure why he got overlooked by the Giants, but not a big deal at the end of the day. I'd be surprised if he's on a major league roster at the start of next season, but i'd imagine he'll be somewhere else.

Linden's probably worth a shot as a spring training invitee, and i'd imagine he'll catch on somewhere, even if it's not at the major league level.

by GiantFan on Nov 22, 2007 3:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
I still laugh at the McC predictions for Linden last offseason, whooo buddy!

by xanthan on Nov 22, 2007 7:30 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ex-Giants invited by A's to S.T.
Crap, I'm going to have to update my sig again.
Proud member of the Adopt-a-Marlin program (Todd Linden)

by antinous on Nov 22, 2007 11:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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