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BONDS INDICTED

Instant analysis and opinion. Relevant point. Examination of an angle to the story you hadn't thought of yet. Platitudes. Memories. Anecdotal evidence. Unqualified legal analysis.

Critique of other opinions. Pithy comment. Rhetorical question? Possible answer. Finger-wagging. Finger-pointing. False bravado and mock outrage. Name calling. Not in my America.

The same thing you just read, phrased differently. Something underlined for emphasis. Reference to another famous scandal. Moment of silence for America's innocence.

Overblown conclusion.

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Re: BONDS INDICTED
Going to be a blast hearing a bunch of sports analysts on ESPN talk about a 10 page indictment for days on end.

by Edge on Nov 15, 2007 4:29 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
/infinite loop footage of Bonds hitting HRS

by xanthan on Nov 15, 2007 4:30 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
waddya mean loop?
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 15, 2007 11:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I think he means a .GIF
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 1:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
haha i know what he was talking about.

i was trying to say that there's no need for a loop as Bonds has so many homers that there's no need for a repeat.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 16, 2007 8:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Ah. Gotcha.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Isn't just like A-Rod
to try and focus all the attention on himself., Right after Bonds gets indicted, A-Rod agrees to a 10 year contract with the Yankees.
I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Nov 15, 2007 4:30 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
picture of oompa loompas fucking

by xanthan on Nov 15, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I can't put it any better than that.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 15, 2007 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Now, no matter how tired everybody is of this topic, an indictment is a pretty big deal.

by cheno on Nov 15, 2007 4:33 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I care more about the Geoff Jenkins rumor, and now that's overshadowed by the indictment. Just great.

by Grant Brisbee on Nov 15, 2007 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Grant, this indictment is the perfect opportunity for Sabean to sign Jenkins while everyone else is focused on Bonds.
I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Nov 15, 2007 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Nate Schierholtz sure noticed the Jenkins' rumors. Five for five today in the season finale. Take that, Sabean!!
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I think we need some diaries about this.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 15, 2007 4:58 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Maybe a diary about Eugenio Velez's reaction to the charges?
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 15, 2007 5:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Gushing, overly sycophantic comment about Grant's wit.  Bad pun.  Lame altered graphic.
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Nov 15, 2007 5:01 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Obligatory request for hilarious and timely Natto! graphic.

by Skaldheim on Nov 15, 2007 5:23 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
If I didn't have homework, I would grant that request.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Nov 15, 2007 8:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Request to ban.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 15, 2007 5:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
all too carefully worded request for sanity.
"Bri-an Sab-e-an, I hope you're satisfied with what you've done..."

by The Gene Hackman on Nov 15, 2007 8:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Unnecessary post by a Babe that may or may not follow baseball.
I luv when the Giants play in SoCal

by Jessica Alba on Nov 16, 2007 7:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
at least he'll retire a Giant.
2002? I'm over it. But I'll never be over Rich Aurilia.

by wjackalope on Nov 15, 2007 5:25 PM PST reply actions  

Owner Hates It When a Giant Un-Retires
Magowan, hearing Bonds has offer from Angels, contacts Grand Jury and agrees to be star witness at Federal Trial.

by Moggeee on Nov 15, 2007 11:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I was kind of hoping they'd come around to this after his retirement...maybe Orenthal James Simpson can give him some timely advice on how to somehow avoid being convicted of the obvious.
Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Nov 15, 2007 5:50 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
The defense attorney can produce a batting glove from Bonds' Pittsburgh days, have Barry try it on in court, and if it fits use it as proof that only his natural muscles got bigger, obviously prooving he's never juiced up.  "The glove still fits, you must throw out all charges."  Something tells me they'd still get him in civil court, though.  It is the IRS afterall.

by ololo3 on Nov 15, 2007 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
...So much for speculation on this very website earlier this week about where Alex Rodriguez and Bonds might end up next week ...

Bonds - DONE

A Rod - Still with the Yanks

by codedfreaq on Nov 15, 2007 6:16 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
ERR...make that Next Season..not next week...

by codedfreaq on Nov 15, 2007 6:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I just don't have the energy anymore to talk Bonds and steroids. Let's just say it's going to be fun watching his lawyers take apart the government's case. It doesn't even matter if Bonds is guilty, no jury will convict when it's shown what a witch hunt went on here.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:26 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
You're likely pretty wrong. Federal cases are notoriously strong.

by PLU Tim on Nov 15, 2007 6:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I'm not saying they don't have a strong case. But do I have to give you a list of how many celebrities beat charges in trials, especially when the lawyers are able to get the jury to focus on some other aspect other than the charges??
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I think you need to look no further than Vick on this.
If he doesn't plea out, he'll do time, and maybe do a little time anyway.
...just my opinion of course, and I'm not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 15, 2007 7:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Vick's case is different though. We're talking about steroids here, not the vicious abuse of man's best friend. Vick would have had a better chance if he had killed humans.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

and we're not even talking about steroids...
we're talking about perjury, a very hard thing to prove. Especially when the testimony that forms the accusation was "I didn't knowingly use illegal stuff." The prosecution will have to show that he knew what he was doing, and that's a tough thing to show to a bunch of jurors in San Francisco.
With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 15, 2007 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: and we're not even talking about steroids...
I heard the lawyer for Kelly White, who was one of the Olympic Balco athletes on the radio this morning and he said that there was no doubt that all Balco athletes were told they were using flaxseed oil and not told about steroids. Needless to say they realized it later when their body started to change, but the government is going to have to prove exactly when Bonds knew it for a fact. All those media asses convicting Bonds already without a trial are going to be very surprised when the case collapses. They seem to think it's simply a case on whether Bonds used steroids or not.
BRING ME ANDRUW JONES!!!

by rxmeister on Nov 16, 2007 5:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: and we're not even talking about steroids...
"They seem to think it's simply a case on whether Bonds used steroids or not."

Which, to them, it is.  And they convicted him along time ago.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Okay, so could you provide evidence for these assertions of yours so we could at least move forward.  

Because right now you are repeating yourself.  

Whoever you are.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 15, 2007 10:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
What assertions have I made?

All I have stated is that Federal cases are notoriously strong cases. That's a know fact to pretty much everyone. If you want to refute that then go ahead.

Now start listing all of the famous people who have beaten federal raps...

by PLU Tim on Nov 16, 2007 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Well, it's not a known fact to me.  Perhaps I am just ignorant.  This very well could be the case considering I am not terribly interested in how many people get off after being indicted by a Federal grand jury.  So, rather than telling me to do your work for you, why don't you provide evidence instead of just re-stating your assertion over and over?  

And, in case you really are lost as to what your assertion is, that would be you saying that Grand Jury indictions lead to a better than 90% conviction rate.  

Maybe you are correct.  Please prove or stop throwing this out there as your only argument.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
A simple google search will lead you to your answers.

Even if it's 85%, which would be low end, I'd say that's pretty strong, wouldn't you?

by PLU Tim on Nov 16, 2007 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Also, in your attempt to deflect the burden of proof onto me, you asked me to name the famous people who have gotten off.  Why just famous people?  That would narrow down the criteria an awful lot, wouldn't you say?  And it's not terribly relevant towards proving or disproving your assertion.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
rxmeister mentioned celebrities. I was just following up on that.

I've never claimed that no one ever beats federal raps. It's just really hard to do.

As I stated in this thread, I had to read a few different articles to get to the 87-92% claim.

You can read them to with a simple google search.

Hell, the state trial conviction rate is around 80% and that's without a grand jury in most states.

I thought that the numbers were high too when I first heard them, but they're true. Just because you want to put your hands up to your ears and hum show tunes doesn't make them any less true.

by PLU Tim on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Ha.  You're funny.  You think that because I call for proof that means I am in denial over this.  I could care less if you are correct about this.  I just wanted to move the "conversation" forward.  Now, there won't be any "this is the way it is"  "no, you're wrong"  "no, I'm right."  etc.  I will probably leave the conversation now.  The repetition without citing any sources was just annoying to me.  Now, at least, anyone who wants to can check your sources and come to their own conclusions.  

That's all I cared about.  

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Scroll down. Indictment's have a high conviction rate because almost all of them are low-profile slam dunks because in general nobody calls for an indictment if they don't think they can either win or get their name known. It's all about careerbuilding.

In this case, it likely doesn't matter who wins, as everybody will have their names all over the press to begin with.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
if the case was so strong...why did it take 4 years of investigation and 2 grand juries??

delorean got off...so will bonds

by bacci40 on Nov 15, 2007 7:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Great. Now my friends will have to ask me the same questions about Bonds again, and I'll have to answer the same questions about Bonds again.
Still tears up listening to 'Smoke on the Water'

by NinthWithoutNen on Nov 15, 2007 6:30 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
That's what you get for having friends.
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Nov 15, 2007 10:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
nonsequitur defense of Brian Sabean typed in runonsentenceswith no punctuation
All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Nov 15, 2007 6:33 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
The Feds need to prove that the positive test(s) they claim to have were infact of Barry's urine and that nowhere along the chain of custody of that urine was it subject to contamination. If you recall from the Game of Shadows and the Chronicle Articles these tests were urine samples sent by Anderson thru Balco Labs to Quest Labs in which the idenity of the person being tested was claimed to actually be Anderson not Bonds. The Feds proving that Barry was the actual person tested when the urine no longer exists seems to me to be very hard to do.

Personally I think the Feds have a weak case and will lose when this goes to trial. I think this indictment is politically motivated by the desire to appease the public's desire to lynch Barry driven by the continuous ongoing witch hunt by the media.  I believe the Feds do believe that Barry is guilty but I also believe that the Feds would never bring these changes if they were not politically motivated and were basing this decision on the likelyhood of a conviction.

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 6:36 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Weak cases don't go to trial at the federal level.

Besides the urine tests only relate to one count of the perjury charges. Read the indictment.

Amazing how this entire board got law degrees this afternoon.

by PLU Tim on Nov 15, 2007 6:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
The urine test is worthless. Bonds said he didn't INTENTIONALLY use steroids, not that he didn't use steroids. What good would a positive test do here??
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
In general this is true.  But when politics are involved as they are in this case all such aasumptions are not wise.  The Feds have done the political calculus and determined that, as I said above, they are better off trying to convict even if they fail then not trying at all.

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 7:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
What about the concept of a grand jury do you fail to understand?

by PLU Tim on Nov 15, 2007 7:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Actually it is you who does not understand the concept of a grand jury.  All a grand jury decides is probable cause.  It has been the practice of the Feds to normally seek internally a higher standand of probable conviction.  But this is an internal process that can clearly be circumvented by politics.  If you think that politics plays no role in this you are just proving yourself to be nieve if not outright stupid.

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Not saying this case and Bonds' case are similar, but here's one example of a federal perjury charge being thrown out:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/11/17/perjury-sept-eleven.html

Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 15, 2007 7:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
So please explain what the department of justice has against Barry Bonds....

by PLU Tim on Nov 15, 2007 7:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I do indeed think some in the department of justice have something personal against Barry Bonds.  The Balco investigation was after all started by Jeff Novitsky based on his personal desire to show that that SOB that is so nasty to the press uses steroids.

But, this is not what I mean by politics.  What I mean by politics is the desire to do what the puplic wants.  This desire is independent of the mission of the judicial system to seek actual justice.  This political desire by the justice department is the direct result of the Media's sucessfull effort to whip you and so many others into this frency to hunt and lynch the witches and in particular to hunt and lynch Barry Bonds.

Frankly, the politics of this is really far more obvious then the guilt of one Barry Lamar Bonds.  To not see this is to be blinded by the hatred the press has welled up in you for one Barry Lamar Bonds.

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
So it's your belief that Bonds not only did not lie to the grand jury, but has never taken PEDs?

Read the indictment. A large portion of Bonds GJ testimony is in there. He was asked so many different ways about steriods/HGH/Clear/Cream/Injectable substances that the feds would basically have to be incompetent to not get a conviction out of this.

This isn't just a "No" to "Did you take roids?" indictment. Basically if they even prove that Anderson as much as handed Barry a PED he's going to be convicted.

If you think that the Fed's entire case is based on Bonds' mistress' testimony and chicken scratch on a piece of paper you're delusional. There are surely going to be people testifying that you've never heard of and that you can't accuse of having some axe to grind with Barry.

by PLU Tim on Nov 15, 2007 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I think what most of us are having a hard time wrapping our heads around is, if not testimony from Anderson, exactly what new evidence has come to light to allow this indictment to happen now rather than any other time in the last 4 years?  If they couldn't prove that Anderson handed Barry a PED then, what makes them able to do so now?

Also, since this is your first day at this site, you clearly haven't been around long enough to realize that there is nobody that we can't accuse of having some axe to grind with Barry.

Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 15, 2007 8:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Question
I think what most of us are having a hard time wrapping our heads around is, if not testimony from Anderson, exactly what new evidence has come to light to allow this indictment to happen now rather than any other time in the last 4 years?

The only thing I can think about is possibly they got Gary Sheffield, who Bonds introduced to Balco, to turn or former Mets clubhouse employee, Kirk Radomski, supplied some info that investigators were able to run down.

by wilriv21 on Nov 16, 2007 12:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Nicely done.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 8:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
This reply was to me not PLU so what do you support it?  

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Like I said in the other thread, my bad. I failed to scroll up properly in both cases. I have no qualms with you here. I was amused at the reference to my Diary, though.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 8:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
No problems.  That is what I thought.

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 8:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
By the way, this PLU Tim never posted before over here, and has now posted seven times about Bonds being indicted. Anyone smell a troll??
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 6:51 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Oh , can it. I posted seven times the day I discovered this place...am I a troll?

No.

I'm an orc.

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Nov 15, 2007 9:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
disappointed grumble. bad mood. poorly thought out joke designed to bely said bad mood. Oregon's not making it better.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 7:07 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
My tolerance for sports BS has already been exceeded. I really don't need this crappy Oregon game.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 15, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Since I long ago made my peace with the fact Barry was a user (which was why he was so careful to say he never knowingly used), this situation for me has always hung on what constitutes knowledge. Is the standard actual knowledge, which might be hard to prove without Anderson's ccoperation, or constructive knowledge? I could well be wrong but I think the latter is something like asking the jury to conclude that any reasonable person knew or should have known he was getting illegal drugs from the circumstances. The Feds may well feel they have a good shot at that.
I could never figure out what was going to happen in this case and still can't (I always assumed -- and still do -- that they will get him for tax fraud since all these players are vulnerable there). But I've always been troubled by his apparent willingness to let Anderson rot in jail to protect him. What happens at the trial if Anderson refuses to testify now? Can he be jailed again? Any lawyers out there?  

by NearestNorwich on Nov 15, 2007 7:24 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Not a lawyer, but I would guess they're not going to call Anderson as a witness. They got their indictment without him, and I would think that the case they present has nothing to do with his testimony.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Nov 15, 2007 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Oh they could call him. . .and he'd take the 5th, the gov would prob grant him immunity, as I'm sure they offered in the GJ stage as well, nullifying his 5th ammend arg, and if he still refused to answer, same thing, contempt, jail mofo.
For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Nov 16, 2007 12:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
This is true.  They can also then question him as a "hostile witness" because of his previous "lack of cooperation" and thus have fewer restrictions on how and what they question him about.  

That said, I see no reason why Anderson would start cooperating and answering questions then.  The trial is not expected to last more then a few weeks.  So, why would being in jail for this much shorter time period bother him if he has already put up with much longer jail time?  Is it not reasonable to assume that he will continue to refuse to cooperate because he continues to feel that the Feds have lied to him and not lived up to their portion of his plea bargin agreement?  It does not matter to Greg that the courts have ruled that he was not promised that he would not have to cooperate with any further investigations.  Gary believes this is what he was promised and has stated (and shown by his actions) that he is not going to cooperate because he feels he just can't trust the Feds to keep any promises.

by giantsrainman on Nov 16, 2007 1:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Profanityprofanityprofanityprofanityprofanityprofanityprofanity. Half-assed attempt at humor. Profanityprofanity.Inconclusive observation Profanityprofanityprofanity. Reference to Sabean Profanity sigh Profanity
"Have you come to stick a knife in my corpse?".

by Ghost11 on Nov 15, 2007 8:23 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Reference to E.  Half-hearted appeal to use less profanity, with a grudging admittance that the veritas of the story may call for some carefully chosen swear words.

by Skaldheim on Nov 15, 2007 10:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Haven't all the other athletes in the Balco case fessed up now that Marion did? I'm not sure if she was the last or not.

This sting involved more than Bonds. They gathered evidence for a year before confronting the people involved. The case is/was about using illegal/undetectable drugs to dope athletes in all sports and the profits illegally gathered from those activities.
Bonds may be the biggest name, but others were just as famous in their fields, including some of the top track and field coaches and runners in the world. There are parts of the world where Olympic Golds are more important than Home Runs.

I personally believe Bonds is totally full of shit. I don't think it makes me less of a Giants fan. I've thought he was full of shit from the get go of the Balco case. I was still able to enjoy the games and the records and all of that. The saddest part to me is that he couldn't just be a stand up guy and say, "yeah, everyone around me was doing it. I did too".  

I don't believe he will win this case, but you never know. Life will go on. The Giants will still field a team. I will still be a fan of them just as I was through the 70's and 80's and 90's.

btw, that pic of him in front of the flag has made me nauseous everytime I've seen it. I guess America is about getting dollars any way you can though.

flame away

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 15, 2007 8:24 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Brilliant.
Matt Cain, cleanup hitter or starting pitcher?

by cain1rstballothof on Nov 15, 2007 8:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
quick! someone post the pic!
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Nov 15, 2007 8:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Yeah, where is PBB when we really need him?

by giantsrainman on Nov 15, 2007 9:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
maybe not literally puking, but definitely a "roll my eyes" kind of thing.

:)

 

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Nov 15, 2007 9:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Oh, I think that's half the point.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 9:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Oh, I smell a chance to take this thread in a totally NEW direction!

Actually, I would say that America has a lot to do with getting dollars any way you can.  

I would go so far as to say that it could be argued that America is founded more on the concept of Capitalism and free enterprise than on freedom and democracy.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 15, 2007 10:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Material Witness
To Have, or to HaveNot. That is the question in America.

And thehavenot, apparently, has pondered it deeply.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 12:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Material Witness
It's the history major in me.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 10:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I have to give the people what they want. But how does a picture make a person nauseous? If I were standing next to you, and then I showed you a pic of Bonds, would I suddenly feel nauseated because you are a nauseous person?

Actually, you are right. I do feel nauseated when I see that picture. Barry is too good for the flag, 'cause he's all man.

I just love the way he doesn't give a damn what other people think about him. I love how he implicity gives a big middle finger to all members of the media. I love how he goes out to get what he wants (contract, records). I love how he just gets better and better in the batter's box when outside pressure (vindictive media, dirty Dodger fans booing him, and the rest of the country's disapproval) would cause any ordinary man to break down. Can't say that about other "men." For young males, he is actually a better role model (although that isn't his job) than this country's plethora of henpecked husbands and "nice" guys.

Here is one more for kicks:

Barry with a gorgeous smile! Just melts your heart!

by kwyjibo on Nov 15, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I was undecided. But fuck it! FREE BARRY!

by MikeyJ on Nov 16, 2007 2:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Misplaced comment about this week's epsiode of The Office.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Nov 15, 2007 9:27 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Outrage at posting spoilers. Empty threats.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 15, 2007 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
I'm sorry is this an AintItCoolNews talkback now?
"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."!

by GameSix on Nov 16, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Post from Dodger fan that pisses everybody off.
vr, Xei
Sadaharu Oh - 868 HRs

by Xeifrank on Nov 15, 2007 10:44 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
For once I have to applaud you for being relevant and funny.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Nov 15, 2007 10:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
pissed off. joke involving a percentage to the nearest hundredth.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 11:10 PM PST up reply actions  

How about...
.001% of Xei Frank's posts are appriciated.
Lance Niekro AAA Watch: 108 AB .287/.352/.463 6 2B 2 3B 3 HR 11 BB -- 0.2 IP 27.00 ERA 3 H 0 BB 0 K (through 8/19)

by WalrusMan on Nov 15, 2007 11:28 PM PST up reply actions  

We don't hand these passes out to just any troll
With that shockingly humorous comment, Damn Xei earns an amnesty until April.

Then we'll be free to hate the Dodger and his Sims again, with vigor.

Oh, yeah. We'll be Barryless, so Xei's relentless predictions of Giant defeat will be -- ouch, the pain -- right on the money.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 12:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: How about...
YOU WENT TO THE NEAREST THOUSANDTH!!!OMG
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 1:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
An expression of lolz.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Nov 16, 2007 5:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Expression of agreement using Slashdot style.

by Skaldheim on Nov 16, 2007 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Cautious legal pundit observation. (Plan to pitch jury consulting services to BLB's trial attorney.)
With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Nov 15, 2007 11:55 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
OK, I'm not a lawyer. . .yet, I'm just a third year law student at UCLA, took a clinical class, Grand Jury Investigation taught by two Assistant U.S. Attorney's. Actually, one former AUSA who's now a City Attorney for la, and one current AUSA, which is neither here nor there, but I don't want anyone claiming I was hiding details. . . .but I do know something about this sort of thing.

Anyhow, I will have a law degree in oh, 7 months, not that I think you need to know this, just basically trying to prevent the talking out of my ass phenomenon.

The preponderance of evidence standard which someone alluded to (I think it was rainman) is the standard of review by which a prosecution (for fed cases, its Assistant United State Attorney General) must meet for a grand jury to return an indictment as a true bill, i.e. that is the preponderance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that he COULD be guilty of said crimes outlined in the indictment. The percentages attached to this standard is 51%, i.e., it is more likely than not, even by the slimmest margins, that he could be guilty of these crimes.

I'm sure someone has alluded to the adage that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich. This is actually quite true.

In our mock trials for our clinical course, no GJ failed to indict on our rather sketch "evidence" against the "alleged" defendants. Our AUSAG who taught the class basically told us if he wanted one, he would get and indictment, he knew how to bore, threaten, cajole, i.e., make it very uncomfortable for a GJ to do anything less than return a true bill, and by the way, when you graduate, if you need a job, look me up.

There is no defendant present, no judge, just a foreman from the GJ group and a AUSAG. The room is under lock and seal, protected from any "outside" influence. It's the most biased one sided presentation of evidence presented out of context and to look as incriminating as possible while not needing to have foundation, basis, etc. .

Getting a federal indictment is for lack of proper legalease, the easiest f&*%$#@ thing in the world to do.

Yes the grand jury is allowed to ask questions, yes they are allowed to become de facto prosecutors and call witnesses that may have some bearing on the case, etc., but any good AUSA, and mind you, they wouldn't put a rookie on this one, on how to "control" a GJ rendering them powerless and inept mimes inudating them with countless documents and long testimony to bore the hell out of them.

They are drawn from a huge pool, asked to take (and I don't exactly remember, I mean c'mon, it was class for carribean hackers sake) a year and a half of their life off to serve on this grand jury. They hear many many many cases in this time. Everyone gets indicted. These people just want to go home. For the central district of CA, it goes from OC to SLO area. Imagine having to drive, fly, or take a train to sit on a GJ panel and listen to Joe FBI agent talk about records from blah blah blah. Especially about something like obstruction and perjury. Not a murder homicide/robbery love triangle, but lame ass charges. From experience, as a "mock" GJ member, you tune out after about 6 minutes, thinking about ponies and grass fields and coming out your shoes one time in your softball game that night. You know you're indicting them, its not a conviction, you're not placing him/her in jail, its like its 51% likely that he/she could have committed this crime. Just let me go home.

Hell, with minimal evidence, I could be the second gunman on the grassy nole and I wasn't even born yet. Catch my drift?

If the GJ fails to indict on the first try, guess what? A AUSAG gets to amend the indictment because the GJ can tell him what they will or will not indict the defendant for based on the evidence, and so they amend and try again. . .with the same GJ.

There are no leading of witnesses requirements. The testimony is sealed so charges of perjury, hyperbole, out of context statements and opinions based on gut reaction without any foundation are freely permitted because as you know all GJ foremen are specialists in the rules of evidence and can separate fact from opinion from the FBI agent interpreting calender records of Greg don't drop the soap Anderson mind you, so the AUSAG is a loose cannon, doing things that would NEVER be allowed at trial, with a layperson sitting as the "foreman". All to prove its more likely than not that BB could have committed OOJ or perjury.

The standards are low, the stakes are low, the AUSAG gets to say and do things without the presentment of any sort of defense. The threat of holding over a GJ for days or having to come back at a later time if they can't agree on whether to indict or not, especially with little or no knowledge about how many times they presented this to a GJ, allows me suggest this is not earth shattering.

You got a GJ indictment? That is the easiest thing to do in our legal system. No defense lawyer, little or no rules governing appropriate AUSAG conduct (besides a "guideline" of principles from the AG, nothing at stake (not a conviction), and a system set up to scare the bedjesus out of GJ who fail to indict.

This is not a hard thing to do. We talked about this case in the class. People "in the know" called this a political witch hunt, the kind that makes careers for people if you catch my drift.

Not that I'm making unfounded baseless accusations, but I could care less. Any hack AUSAG can get and indictment. The fact that it took them this long, extending the GJ time for an extra 6 months twice (I think), which imagine living in SLO, commuting to downtown la two days a week for a year and a half after not being smart enough to admit your a racist or something to get out of service (yes I know it was in SF, example), and being told that you have to be extended because the AUSAG is going back to amend the indictment for the umpteenth time because you said I'm sorry, this doesn't even reach the ridiculously low standard of preponderance of evidence.

I hope they go to trial. I hope the defense attorney for bonds assembles a kick ass legal team and tears whoever is dumb enough to accept this assignment to shreds, pointing out how much wasted time, effort, and energy, along with taxpayer money to prove that BB took roids. Hey, we get it, everyone knows he did. Get over yourselves. You think you'll get some SF jury to say he "knowingly" took roids? He's already tainted/tarnished, whatever. What pisses me off is that it means I probably won't get to see him play again.

And that's the real travesty in this situation. I don't get to watch the bat pump, perfect timing of the pitch and after watching the swing, before the shot takes it to the path of the ball, knowing its gone.

Anyhow, this took way longer than I thought, and my last beer is wearing off, so I'm going back to drinking, but I thought it might be helpful/insightful knowledge for the McCovey bretheren (this includes women, sorry, no all inclusive legal term that isn't masculineded). This is all from memory and I don't have citations and shit, so if you want to check it, go look it up, but if you have ?'s feel free. It was funny, in watching the ESPN 30 sec little deal on the website, the legal guy used the term "the prosecutions indictment." My first initial reaction was you idiot, its the GJ indictment, not the pros, but in thinking about what he meant, he's right, its the prosecution's indictment. Presenting it to a GJ is really a formality. Everyone gets indicted that that pros wants eventually. Call me when you get a conviction.

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Nov 16, 2007 12:23 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
My sincere thanks for taking the time to explain this process to the rest of us.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that found it helpful in understanding this stuff.

Just one question.  I don't have any reason to doubt what you say is true, but I was just curious to get your ideas on how this grand jury process could ever lead to the 87-92% conviction rate on federal charges that was thrown around earlier (albeit, with no source).

Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Nov 16, 2007 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
There wasn't one source.

Google "Federal Conviction Rates"

I had to estimates based on what I read in about 5-6 different articles.

by PLU Tim on Nov 16, 2007 9:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
See, no grand-standing here.  Just stating where you got your figures.  Why couldn't you do that with me?
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Wait a minute I thought this was supposed to be a sarcastic thread?  I was going to post something just like this but it was mostly funny comments...

...ok I wasn't going to post anything remotely resembling this.  But yeah, you must be the real Will Clark because that was a thing of beauty.  Thanks.

x2 POTY

"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."!

by GameSix on Nov 16, 2007 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
What I love about this site, beyond the close knit community, is that we're all so diverse in the way we love/appreciate/loathe the G-men. I may not know all about the farm system, Giants history, stats, etc., but I love the people that do, they help put things into perspective and enhance my knowledge about the Giants. If I can add something to the discussion and help build the knowledge of the community, I'm just returning the favor for so many of you guys and gals that have educated me. I'm just glad I can contribute to the forum. I prob forgot certain things, screwed up extension numbers, etc., but the general point of the post was there I hope.

Now then, how long until spring training? Can't handle the baseball withdraw. . .

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Nov 16, 2007 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Well the DOJ has guidelines for AUSAG's, i.e. no witch hunts, you must seek an indictment that has a high success rate at trial, etc, but there are very few fed defense attorney's. Most that are indicted are indigent and therefore get a Fed Pub Def. Now, the best way I could describe a FPD is at a Gov. panel of atty's at a pub interest day type presentation (i.e., come work for us!) the FPD described her job as a speed bump in the legal process.

This was the lady whose job it was to defend those indicted. She was a speed bump.

Most def can't afford a private lawyer. Without doing a lot of research, I'd say the 8-13% prob can afford to do without a speed bump.

AUSAG don't normally take cases that aren't slam dunks, but every once and a while, there comes a big fish that they use as a step ladder to career advancement, i.e., marsha clark, who was an idiot pros, but turned it into a book deal, etc., who I'm sure has a successful private practice, the MJ case, I didn't follow the trial, but it seems it was less than compelling evidence, the paris hilton pros, etc. These "big fishes" are gold mines to many pros, proving they can "run with the big dogs." Think how big egos are among lawyers. Hell I go to school with lot of em' and they have plenty of ego, but they turn these cases into lucrative careers. Win or lose, they were THAT guy or gal.

Most of them don't want a fair fight though. Most cherry pick their cases, also known as pros discretion, to choose which def to go after, hence the high conviction rates, why would you spend time/resources on anything less than a slam dunk unless. . . . you're interested in a witch hunt, career advancement, etc. . .

Thats my guess from the limited background I have.

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Nov 16, 2007 12:50 AM PST reply actions  

BONDS INDICTED
http://tampabaygiants.com/barry.jpg



Giambi, Canseco, Piazza, Pudge, Gagne, Brady Anderson, Juan Gone, and EVERYBODY ELSE... he died for your sins

or at least was indicted

by theclap on Nov 16, 2007 1:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Link to ESPN side story of sad, shocked and disillusioned Joe Giants Fan, with ever-present "Tragic Piano" music tinkling away in the background.

by tobias on Nov 16, 2007 7:18 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Hey, Grant's post was quoted verbatim in Deadspin. Take that, US Attorneys!!!111!
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Nov 16, 2007 8:29 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Smart-ass comment in place of expressing true feelings.

by ResDog on Nov 16, 2007 8:33 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Pun on top of smart-ass comment. Thread hangs in the balance. Tipping toward irrelevance.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Fart joke.
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Nov 16, 2007 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Intent of thread irrevocably lost in a hail of flatulence and laughter.

Hijacked thread devolves into a chaotic and lusty fart competition. Winner nominated for a special "Lifetime Achievement" McCoven Award.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
remark about lusty farts and what that says about someone's predilections
I have set Dave Roberts free; if he comes back, it was meant to be.

by hometownboy on Nov 17, 2007 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Gratitude to Grant. Laughter. Heavy sigh at the thought of upcoming weeks of this nonsense. Resignation. Search for distraction.
Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Nov 16, 2007 9:11 AM PST reply actions  

Search for distraction
Tuning into 49ers game. First of several suicide attempts.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 10:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Search for distraction
Unfortunate use of "Alex Smith" model blade, overshoot wrist by 5 yards consistently.

by zenbitz on Nov 16, 2007 12:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Search for distraction
Defense of blade, because it's mechanics have been off since you visciously slammed it down on its side that one time, it's sheath is in tatters (protection), and you haven't sharpened it in years anyway (coaching).
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Legacy in peril?
That's the headline in the chronicle, but I just don't get it.  Everyone has already made up their minds about whether or not he took steroids.  I know it's all kinds of illegal, but how much should baseball fans really care about whether or not he lied about it.  I mean, it's kind of like lying about cheating on your wife...

by moonman on Nov 16, 2007 9:25 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED

Spirited defense of Bonds against all reason and evidence.

by zenbitz on Nov 16, 2007 10:15 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
barely coherent razzle map brum.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Nov 16, 2007 10:37 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Cryptic acronym indicating hearty laughter.
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Nov 16, 2007 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Helpful reminder that Chicks dig the Long ball.
I luv when the Giants play in SoCal

by Jessica Alba on Nov 16, 2007 10:44 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Surgeon General's warning that steroid use may attract chicks, but shrinks your gonads.

by Moggeee on Nov 16, 2007 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
Moonman is right -- it seems like lying about cheating on your wife. Isn't the Bonds case kind of like the Clinton case? It wasn't whether they did it or not, it was whether they lied. And isn't it odd that 99% of us couldn't care less about desecrating the Oval Office, but everybody is in an outrage over the sacredness of baseball records????

by kg on Nov 16, 2007 10:58 AM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
The really alarming thing is that Clinton also used a performance enhancer, and nobody seemed to care.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Nov 16, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Errr.... I mean,
Witty yet obnoxious comment from foreign fan, while snickering.
DbacksSkins

by DbacksSkins on Nov 16, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
moment of silence for our precious national innocence

by Freneau on Nov 16, 2007 6:58 PM PST reply actions  

Re: BONDS INDICTED
yawn.

That is all.

Screw the Giants, but not Omar. I'm getting drunk and watching some footy.

by PacBellBoozer on Nov 17, 2007 9:53 PM PST reply actions  

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